In hindsight, I should have set a minimum of 20 games. Oh well, lesson learned for the future.
The bug where Simple and Contrary affected Z-boosts has long been fixed. So, no.Eevee @ Eevium Z
Ability: Simple
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Last Resort
- Protect
The bug where Simple and Contrary affected Z-boosts has long been fixed. So, no.
Sorry, I didn't realise that those boosts worked differently.It's the effect from the move itself, not a secondary effect of a Z-version of a move.
Tbh the only reason you would want to run doublade is to check stuff like Kartana and other things, where coverage options lie in EQ, which you need to actually run levitate. If I would run a physical wall to blanket check stuff, I'd actually go suicune/toxapex and others, which doesnt rely on eviolite on their bulk. And oh, Buzzwole checks non cb dhelmise kartana well, and other non dhelmise kartana sets.ok i vote BAN ON KARTANA, NO BAN ON HOOPA-U
i already give the reqs at post #307
Reasons :
Kartana : OMG F*CK THIS THINGS. no consistent answer to this, eviolite max max unaware doublade got 2hkoed by this thing. you need atleast 2 answers just to answer this thing. even bad offensive typing can't hinder it, and protean exist. not to mention pairing with trapper like something inheriting from A-Golem make a guaranteed kill (especially dhelmise set, which prevent you from double switching thanks to anchor shot). the easier to handle is bulu set, but if you meet LarvitarxKartana, just die tho. and someone already post the calcs so you already know what kartana doing.
Hoopa-U : yeah, it hits hard, but the same thing apply to TorkoalxTran, TinixZardx, TinixAlowak and KokoxXurks (for me actually TorkoalxTran is more scary tho). this still have an answer. Bruxish set stopped cold by bulky dark types. Conv-Z likely outclassed with Xurkitree, Adaptability PorygonzxHoopa can't do anything to Mandibuzz, Magearna, Umbreon and Guzzlord (yeah GUZZLORD). while it have mixed strong attack, it have drawbacks in speed stat and defense stat. STALL literally have answer for this.
som replays why i choose ban on kartana and no ban on hoopa-u
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-537672333
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-537685494
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-537690717
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-537735766
some people please give a reasons if you want to ban or no ban, just because it may seem broken on paper, doesn't mean it will broken in practice.
yeah, you night think "but KecleonxHoopa-U is broken!", but even hoopa-u banned, it can be changed to azelf, Latios, Alowak, even Kyurem. i think the problem itself is in Protean, which give many so unpredictability from the metagame,
speaking of guzzlord, here it's the set.
Guzzlord @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 152 Atk / 116 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-Turn
- Foul Play
- Knock Off
- Hammer Arm
Shoutouts to LuxioBro for using this thing. actually i don't know how the EV he use, so i give some weird EV spread. 116 Def to prevent OHKOd from +6 Knock Off Mega Gyara from full, enough SPDef to uninvested Dazzlng Gleam from Tapu Fini and the rest in Attack. (sorry tho i steal your set, but it's so good).
mmm actually i have mandibuzz for pairing with doublade. which cover the ground and ghost weakness. still, i need atleast 2 checks to check it isn't? if you say suicune / toxapex, they'll definitely die to kartana anyway. Levitate Doublade just become set-up fodder for kartana, unless you want something like Fire Punch / Flamethrower in Levitate Doublade which is kinda silly just to check Kartana.Tbh the only reason you would want to run doublade is to check stuff like Kartana and other things, where coverage options lie in EQ, which you need to actually run levitate. If I would run a physical wall to blanket check stuff, I'd actually go suicune/toxapex and others, which doesnt rely on eviolite on their bulk. And oh, Buzzwole checks non cb dhelmise kartana well, and other non dhelmise kartana sets.
Also can you tell me what are stall answers to hoopa-u? The reason why hoopa-u is actually too good is not because of a single set, but because it can run a lot effectively, and I already stated those ones before. It's also the strongest mixed attacker around, which makes it even harder to wall, so i dont think stall has definite answers to this.
Maybe I'm getting too nitpicky, but why would tapu fini use dazzling gleam over moonblast?
Also +6 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Guzzlord: 546-642 (93 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO ?_?
I think you wanted to say +4?
I never said cune and toxapex are kartana answers, but better physical walls in general rather than doublade. Most good levitate doublades have good answers in kartana, like willowisp (solrock) or dragon tail (hydreigon), which are useful against physical attackers. They also have reliable recovery.mmm actually i have mandibuzz for pairing with doublade. which cover the ground and ghost weakness. still, i need atleast 2 checks to check it isn't? if you say suicune / toxapex, they'll definitely die to kartana anyway. Levitate Doublade just become set-up fodder for kartana, unless you want something like Fire Punch / Flamethrower in Levitate Doublade which is kinda silly just to check Kartana.
actually i tried all i mentioned above, for mandibuzz, Prankster Haze making it to be a check to not only Hoopa-U, but also some set-up sweepers in general. neutral to fighting and immunity to ground is nice for dark types. Mandi have good mixed defenses too. same can be apply to Umbreon except you now have weakness to fighting and no immunity to ground while not weak to rock and boltbeam. non protean hoopa is checked consistently by those. and some things like Magearna, Guzzlord (again, underrated i think), Tyranitar, Alolan-Muk work. heck, even something like Scrafty can be a nice check to it (yeah i know scrafty is kind of silly but my point is so many viable checks/counters to hoopa-u already for stall). the difference why i vote ban on kartana and no ban on hoopa-u is kartana forced me to run 2 checks in teambuilding, while hoopa-u isn't.
well, dazzling gleam is random though, some fini run dazzling gleam because some pokemon doesn't have Moonblast, like if you inherit from something like Lanturn , but look at this calc :
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Xurkitree Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Guzzlord: 474-558 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Guzzlord in Sun: 231-273 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Guzzlord: 282-334 (48 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Guzzlord: 186-222 (31.6 - 37.8%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Guzzlord: 486-572 (82.7 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
i think you get my point.
also, i mean Jolly, not Adamant.
+6 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Guzzlord: 497-585 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. this replay shows it tho:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-538852916
also anyone have checks for TinixAlowak in stall teams not named ArcaninexBuzzwole?
Any Flash Fire-toting Electric resist, for starters, but since that doesn't seem to be your speed, bulky Fire-resistant Ground-types work (Swampert, Zygarde, Rhyperior) and Electric-immune Water-types will do the trick.also anyone have checks for TinixAlowak in stall teams not named ArcaninexBuzzwole?
being better in general walls doesn't mean doublade don't have a good use. every mons have a different function. for me why i like unaware doublade because he pretty much stopped contrary user, knock off and slow u-turn pivot which give me a momentum.I never said cune and toxapex are kartana answers, but better physical walls in general rather than doublade. Most good levitate doublades have good answers in kartana, like willowisp (solrock) or dragon tail (hydreigon), which are useful against physical attackers. They also have reliable recovery.
Also i guess it's my fault not specifying, but I was talking about mixed hoopa having no answers, so my bad. Although the checks that you mentioned get destroyed by tinted lens and some shell smash variants. Also I really dislike the argument "made me run two checks so i voted for ban", since other powerful attackers, that arent really broken, needs to take in consideration to have secondary checks to ease pressure from a single mon.
Is that a shellsmash gyarados? if it is, i believe it doesnt need jolly, and must be adamant since it's hitting a very high speed after +2, already oupacing scarf kartana, which is probably the fastest scarfer.
Also I just found a very smart person in the ladder. I dont know but people could do this so that their set couldnt be revealed. Tagging The Immortal if something can be done to this.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-539173593
ah thank you, i think i'll get Zygarde since it's so bulky physicaly.Any Flash Fire-toting Electric resist, for starters, but since that doesn't seem to be your speed, bulky Fire-resistant Ground-types work (Swampert, Zygarde, Rhyperior) and Electric-immune Water-types will do the trick.
Uhm i didnt say doublade has no use as a blanket check in physical attackers, but cune just checks lots more. Also you cant haze hoopa rofl.being better in general walls doesn't mean doublade don't have a good use. every mons have a different function. for me why i like unaware doublade because he pretty much stopped contrary user, knock off and slow u-turn pivot which give me a momentum.
willowisp (solrock) doublade is destroyed by larvitarxkartana, when dragon tail variant almost can do nothing except phaze kartana. i guess i don't need to specify the calcs cz someone already posted that for other checks.
the argument "made me run two checks so i voted for ban" means pretty much you need an immense dedication on a teambuilding level and still, every kartana comes in, you will see something will die or crippled (in case of rachixkartana, which spamming iron head for flinch and have trick) which is not healthy in the meta.
ok i get an example of mandibuzz since i mentioned it earlier. i got the EV spread from the standard set in ORAS, you can customize it if you want.
Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 108 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Roost
- Haze
- Toxic
252 Atk Life Orb Tinted Lens Hoopa-Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 185-218 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 195-229 (46 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
immune to psychic type and shell smash variant can be haze'd, mandi job just foul played him .. is this what you want?
well, idk why he use jolly, maybe to speed tie against other gyarados? i don't know. unfortunately my hammer arm missed and he setup until +6.
jolly is still relevant because there are things like BibarelxGyarados too. if you want to more minimalize damage for Adamant, then you can sure drop EV from Atk stat and give it to Def.
ah thank you, i think i'll get Zygarde since it's so bulky physicaly.
you can Haze'd hoopa, because Haze targeted as an effect area, not specifically targeted the mons, so yeah, you can reset the stats, unlike topsy-turvy which targeted the mons.Uhm i didnt say doublade has no use as a blanket check in physical attackers, but cune just checks lots more. Also you cant haze hoopa rofl.
Eh this is actually just being a repetitive discussion, and I guess we really just have different opinions on these stuff it seems.
Ah i see. Thanks for letting me know that.you can Haze'd hoopa, because Haze targeted as an effect area, not specifically targeted the mons, so yeah, you can reset the stats, unlike topsy-turvy which targeted the mons.
The ones I've seen are Prankster Haze + Recover + Mean Look + Perish Song.Interesting to hear people suggest a Murkrow suspect. I haven't laddered much this month because to me it's a bit flat with the donor reveal mechanic. But I did use a fair bit of Murkrow Tapu Fini in the time that I did ladder earlier in the month, and however I never thought about it being possibly broken, it never once failed to perform excellently.
Here's a reply showing just how reliable it is. As I experiment with a first draft Stall team late at night, playing like absolute garbage, Murkrow Tapu Fini still manages to perform and bring in the win.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-527509268
Prankster Haze + Recover is the main appeal most see in inheriting from Murkrow, but to me one of the real sellers is priority Feather Dance. Feather Dance is so ridiculously spammable against physical attackers, halving their attack lower and lower before they even get a chance to move, and many a time crippling them faster than they can boost. This alongside Night Shade for consistent damage no matter who the base pokemon, allows Murkrow inheritors to take on almost any Physical attacker quite handily 1v1.
I of course use Tapu Fini as my go to Murkrow inheritor because it is far and away the best Mega Gyarados counter, but there are of course many other pokemon who can viably use the combination of Prankster Haze+Roost+Feather Dance+Night Shade. Murkrow giving the ability to blanket check set up sweepers and cripple physical attackers (or any should you opt for Thunder Wave).
I'm still unsure as to whether there is any need to think about getting rid of it, just wanted to put a bit of a spotlight on it. We likely have bigger fish to fry for the moment.
ayy that's my setThe ones I've seen are Prankster Haze + Recover + Mean Look + Perish Song.
Make it as a potential suspect? hmmAh i see. Thanks for letting me know that.
But with that, is murkrow a potential suspect? It gives you reliable recovery, and all kinds of stoping sweepers with haze and foul play.
That's a display bug. It doesn't actually change the type at all, or effectiveness. That is a normal Silvally, that was put as Silvally-Bug in the teambuilder, and with the changed ability it just appears as Silvally-Bug despite being normal type. The same thing happens with Arceus.Can you please ban Silvally? Not that its too strong or anything but its bugging around.
- You can change the Type without the fitting ability
- Ignores effectiveness
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-539413683
It's not actually changing type, just its forme; without both RKS System and a Memory, Silvally is always Normal Type by default. Additionally, the validator won't allow Silvally's alt-formes in Inheritance without the corresponding Memory, even if its ability is changed. Whether this should be allowed or not depends partly on how exactly these Pokemon are actually obtaining these unusual abilities and moves in the context of the base game; if we consider this BH with much stricter rules, then it's intended behavior. If not, then...Can you please ban Silvally? Not that its too strong or anything but its bugging around.
- You can change the Type without the fitting ability
- Ignores effectiveness
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-539413683