Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

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Exiline

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nobody uses excadrill in ru and deoxys-speed can run ice beam, only thing that helps is its ability sturdy to remove hazards but why use it when there are better hazard removers available. I don't think it needs to be ranked in ubers.
P:S explain things better its just 2 lines that don't prove anything
excadrill is used a lot (in ubers not ru kek) as a suicide lead, and deoxys never use ice beam (nor any offensive move).

and reje explained donphan utility pretty nicely imo, the mon has only 1 role, we don't really need 30 lines post for a single suicide lead.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
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Are u serious

If any of you think that was a serious nom then idek what to say.
How was it not a serious nom? He layed everything out pretty simply, it does well against excadrill leads and deo-s to a lesser extent. Last time I checked C- was for mons that have somewhat of a niche, and it would seem that Donphan has that.
 

Fireburn

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The Ubers moderation team has determined that this thread is contaminated with dangerous pathogens such as "Did Someone Walk Up Slowly and Nom Ditto for B" Virus and "Someone Actually Had the Balls to Nom Donphan" Disease. We are locking this thread until it has been properly quarantined and purified.

The process won't take long - we expect to have another update ready shortly after UPL's conclusion, which is when it will be unlocked.
 
We're back. This update took a bit longer than expected because our first spreadsheet draft got deleted... so we had to come together and do it again! Also quit the shitposting over shitmons. srs.

If you find your nom was ditched, it probably needed an analysis before VR discussion on it could even take place! Yes, that was (and still is) a rule. Some movements this update are simply just small movements around the inside of subranks, but I'm gonna assume the next update will have some actual changes now that UPL is finished and there may be some more nominations to consider. A few of these nominations were internally done.

Update List:

Rayquaza: B+ >> A- (Above Arceus-Ghost)
Giratina: B- >> B (Above Arceus-Dragon)
Genesect: D >> C (Above Reshiram)
Cloyster: C+ >> B- (Below Landorus-T)
Mega Blaziken: Unranked >> B+ (Above Excadrill)
Mega Tyranitar: Unranked >> B- (Above Landorus-T)
Toxapex: B- >> B (Above Arceus-Rock)
Smeargle: C+ >> B- (Above Solgaleo)

Smaller Movements:

Lugia: Moves to the top of B+
Alolan Muk: Moves up inside B+ (Above Deoxys-S)
Celesteela: Moves up inside A- (Above Giratina-O)

Didn't move: Primal Groudon, Mega Lucario, Mega Gengar, Lunala, Mega Sableye, Arceus-Ghost, and Ditto.

Let's keep this thread going smoothly!
 
I want to start of with a nom that I did research in.

I nominate Pheromosa to move from B to Bottom of B+ or slightly higher in B
The set that I have found to be very successful is it's Choice Band Set, which is a set that is slept on lately. It can dent teams very hard and it is more reliable than the life orb set. This is because in the life orb set, Pheromosa is worn down so easily that it won't be able to do much to the enemy team, while in the Choice Band Set, pheromosa can keep on spamming U-Turns without worrying about being worn down quickly. For example, in the life-orb set, there is no fair damage trade off for Primal Groudon as you gain just as much damage that you did to P-Groudon because of Life Orb.
252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa U-turn vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 56-66 (14.7 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
But with Choice Band...

252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa U-turn vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 65-77 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO

and it it has no life orb recoil, which results into a good damage tradeoff.

Choice Band also enables it to hit ko most Arceus Forms and 1-KO Darkrai, Arceus Normal, Arceus Dark, and best of all, hit Primal Groudon's Offensive Stealth Rock with High Jump Kick.
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 184 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 624-734 (146.1 - 171.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO(if you think that Arceus will use Extreme speed, I partnered it with Support Lele with Terrain Extender to enable it to sweep.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dark: 624-734 (140.8 - 165.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Water: 255-300 (57.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(This calc is shown for it's ability to revenge kill Arceus-Water or if it uses Toxic)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Arceus-Fairy: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(utility)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 241-285 (63.5 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(offensive Stealth Rock)

Being the second fastest unboosted pokemon in Ubers(bar Deoxys Speed which is used as a suicide lead) really gives Pheromosa an even bigger niche, and the ability to escape damage entirely from a powerful STAB u-turn, even more powerful with Choice Band. It's amazing ability to be one of the best late-game cleaners in Ubers makes it deserve a higher rank in B or even in the bottom of B+. The pokemon that holds it back is definitely pokemon with protect and stall, but it is amazing in Hyper-Offensive Teams, Offensive Teams, and I even tried it in Balance with good results. The team that Pheromosa doesn't fit into is definitely bulky offense and stall, but it is still quite splashable nevertheless. Despite being held back against certain matchups and teams, I still believe that Pheromosa should be higher in B or even at the bottom of B+ IMO. Not a big change.
 
I want to start of with a nom that I did research in.

I nominate Pheromosa to move from B to Bottom of B+ or slightly higher in B
The set that I have found to be very successful is it's Choice Band Set, which is a set that is slept on lately. It can dent teams very hard and it is more reliable than the life orb set. This is because in the life orb set, Pheromosa is worn down so easily that it won't be able to do much to the enemy team, while in the Choice Band Set, pheromosa can keep on spamming U-Turns without worrying about being worn down quickly. For example, in the life-orb set, there is no fair damage trade off for Primal Groudon as you gain just as much damage that you did to P-Groudon because of Life Orb.
252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa U-turn vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 56-66 (14.7 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
But with Choice Band...

252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa U-turn vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 65-77 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO

and it it has no life orb recoil, which results into a good damage tradeoff.

Choice Band also enables it to hit ko most Arceus Forms and 1-KO Darkrai, Arceus Normal, Arceus Dark, and best of all, hit Primal Groudon's Offensive Stealth Rock with High Jump Kick.
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 184 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 624-734 (146.1 - 171.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO(if you think that Arceus will use Extreme speed, I partnered it with Support Lele with Terrain Extender to enable it to sweep.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dark: 624-734 (140.8 - 165.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Water: 255-300 (57.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(This calc is shown for it's ability to revenge kill Arceus-Water or if it uses Toxic)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Arceus-Fairy: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(utility)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 241-285 (63.5 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(offensive Stealth Rock)

Being the second fastest unboosted pokemon in Ubers(bar Deoxys Speed which is used as a suicide lead) really gives Pheromosa an even bigger niche, and the ability to escape damage entirely from a powerful STAB u-turn, even more powerful with Choice Band. It's amazing ability to be one of the best late-game cleaners in Ubers makes it deserve a higher rank in B or even in the bottom of B+. The pokemon that holds it back is definitely pokemon with protect and stall, but it is amazing in Hyper-Offensive Teams, Offensive Teams, and I even tried it in Balance with good results. The team that Pheromosa doesn't fit into is definitely bulky offense and stall, but it is still quite splashable nevertheless. Despite being held back against certain matchups and teams, I still believe that Pheromosa should be higher in B or even at the bottom of B+ IMO. Not a big change.
I honestly don't see Pheromosa's worth in ubers.
It's fast I'll give it that, and I guess it anti-leads stuff like Excadrill, but that's without band.
Pretty much every calc you show is vs something that can eat a hit, and just kill it in return.
And you say banded High Jump Kick, but you seem to have forgotten that ghost types are a presence on pretty much every team in this tier.
You'd have to outpredict every time to make sure it doesn't die without doing nothing, as it is almost guarantueed to do just that vs Mega Saybleye, Gira-O, and Ghostceus teams.
There are a lot more viable options than this mon for an HO team (the only playstyle I can see it fit on), and it is just straight up outclassed by Deoxys-A.
These are just my thoughts though mixed with some truth, feel free to disagree or try to convince me otherwise.
"252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa U-turn vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 56-66 (14.7 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
But with Choice Band...

252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa U-turn vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 65-77 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO"


Not sure how this is supposed to convince anyone that it should move up...
 
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My point in those calcs is to show how much better is Choice Band Pheromosa than the life orb set. It has so much more raw power and it does way more chip damage with U-Turn, so I think it is this set that Pheromosa deserves to rise for.

Let's remember Pheromosa's niches over Deoxys-A in Ubers.
1. The fastest unboosted pokemon in Ubers.(faster than Deoxys-A)
2. Unlike Deoxys-A, it has the ability to pivot out of bad matchups U-turn.(A very big niche)
3. Pheromosa's main STAB move, Low kick or High Jump Kick does NOT lower it's attack Stat, unlike Deoxys-A with Psycho Boost, making Deoxys-A unable to do much damage in the next-turn.

Deoxys-A niches over Pheromosa
1. Has a much higher attack and special attack stat than pheromosa.(a very big niche)
2. Has access to priority.(another big niche)
3. There are definitely other niches over Pheromosa but those are the 2 main niches.

If you think about it, Pheromosa's most important niche, the ability to pivot out of bad matchups is what separates Deoxys-A from Pheromosa completely. I started experimenting using Pheromosa over Deoxys-A and after doing so from many matches, I found that Pheromosa is more useful in most cases as it has the ability to do chip damage early game with U-Turn and finish them off late game. Deoxys-A is straight up a glass canon. Because of this, if it doesn't Ko the pokemon it attacks(this happens in walls), it almost literally dies from any hit. Pheromosa is almost the same, but doing the Chip damage early game and the ability to switch out for free from bad matchups makes pheromosa better than Deoxys in certain cases.

For example, Deoxys-A encounters a Celesteela, and it doesn't the power to one hit kill, so it is forced to switch out. Pheromosa on the other hand can U-Turn out and doing some chip damage completely for free, and leaves a better pokemon to take care of hit, like P-Groudon.

The little chip damage that comes from U-Turn usually turns out invaluable late game and it can clean up the enemy team easily.

With such a big niche, Pheromosa doesn't deserve 3 subranks lower than its closest competitor, so I believe that it should be B+ or at least higher in B.
 
My point in those calcs is to show how much better is Choice Band Pheromosa than the life orb set. It has so much more raw power and it does way more chip damage with U-Turn, so I think it is this set that Pheromosa deserves to rise for.

Let's remember Pheromosa's niches over Deoxys-A in Ubers.
1. The fastest unboosted pokemon in Ubers.(faster than Deoxys-A)
2. Unlike Deoxys-A, it has the ability to pivot out of bad matchups U-turn.(A very big niche)
3. Pheromosa's main STAB move, Low kick or High Jump Kick does NOT lower it's attack Stat, unlike Deoxys-A with Psycho Boost, making Deoxys-A unable to do much damage in the next-turn.

Deoxys-A niches over Pheromosa
1. Has a much higher attack and special attack stat than pheromosa.(a very big niche)
2. Has access to priority.(another big niche)
3. There are definitely other niches over Pheromosa but those are the 2 main niches.

If you think about it, Pheromosa's most important niche, the ability to pivot out of bad matchups is what separates Deoxys-A from Pheromosa completely. I started experimenting using Pheromosa over Deoxys-A and after doing so from many matches, I found that Pheromosa is more useful in most cases as it has the ability to do chip damage early game with U-Turn and finish them off late game. Deoxys-A is straight up a glass canon. Because of this, if it doesn't Ko the pokemon it attacks(this happens in walls), it almost literally dies from any hit. Pheromosa is almost the same, but doing the Chip damage early game and the ability to switch out for free from bad matchups makes pheromosa better than Deoxys in certain cases.

For example, Deoxys-A encounters a Celesteela, and it doesn't the power to one hit kill, so it is forced to switch out. Pheromosa on the other hand can U-Turn out and doing some chip damage completely for free, and leaves a better pokemon to take care of hit, like P-Groudon.

The little chip damage that comes from U-Turn usually turns out invaluable late game and it can clean up the enemy team easily.

With such a big niche, Pheromosa doesn't deserve 3 subranks lower than its closest competitor, so I believe that it should be B+ or at least higher in B.
What I got out of all of this is that you want Pheromosa to go from B to B+ because it has access to U-turn and isn't as frail as Deoxys-A (which btw, is a ridiculous statement but ok).
U-turn only creates momentum, the chip is absolutely worthless, and Pheromosa needs life orb to even be considered viable.
Pheromosa's only niece lies with it being able to anti-lead hyper offense leads like Excadrill, and as hazard control on ho, which it can't do when it's banded.
It is overall outclassed by a number of mons with the main one being Deoxys-A.
Pheromosa is just too frail to take hits, and doesn't pack enough power to deal heavy damage.

With that being said and having taken a look at the viability thread, I thought I'd nitpick the B rankings a bit:

Pheromosa B >> B- (Inbetween Mewtwo, and Mega Mewtwo X/Under Mewtwo)
For reasons mentioned above and in my previous post.


Palkia B- >> B (Under Darkrai, above Arceus-Ice)
Not a big raise, but with the sumo metagame being so heavily orientated on bulk and stall, I feel like Palkia should get a raise as it absolutely demolished defensive cores/teams.


Buzzwole B >> B (From bottom to under Cloyster)
Another small raise, but with Arceus-Ground being so omnipresent I feel like it should deserve a little rise.


Mega Gyarados B >> B (From the near-top to the top)
For the same reasoning as Palkia, it destroys defensive cores. The reason why Mega Gyarados shouldn't follow Palkia to B+ is because it takes up the valuable Mega slot.


Mega Blaziken B+ >> B+ (From middle to bottom)
I just think its viability is lower than the mons below it in B+ and feel like it's ranked there because it was released only recently.
 
Uhhhhhhh....
U-turn only creates momentum, the chip is absolutely worthless, and Pheromosa needs life orb to even be considered viable.
Pheromosa's only niece lies with it being able to anti-lead hyper offense leads like Excadrill, and as hazard control on ho, which it can't do when it's banded.
It is overall outclassed by a number of mons with the main one being Deoxys-A.
Pheromosa is just too frail to take hits, and doesn't pack enough power to deal heavy damage.
First of all, look at your first statement. You completely missed the point. As you said, Pheromosa does not pack us much raw power as Deoxys-A. However, that is when U-turn comes in. You say the chip is absoulutely worthless and yet it the the reason why Pheromosa is able to clean up so easily late game.

And then your second statement comes in, are you saying that that is Pheromosa's only niche is that when I clearly stated it my second post? And if that is Pheromosa's only niche, then why would they place Pheromosa as high as B? There are many spinners available in Ubers yet most of them aren't ranked. That statement is honestly questionable. And Choice Band and Life orb sets do different things. Both annoy the enemy early game with U-Turn but given the freedom of Choice, life orb sets can be used to eliminate a certain pokemon in the enemy team that threaten the ally team, and also serves as a cleaner. Choice band is more of a mid-game wallbreaker.

I am not denying that Pheromosa is outclassed by Deoxys-A, yet they are walled by almost the same pokemon. Pheromosa is better in certain cases to break things Deoxys-A cannot break in one hit. For example we both know they cannot break Celestesteela.

252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Celesteela: 205-242 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(I picked Psycho boost because it does the most damage)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 256-303 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(the irony, but anyways)

This when U-Turn comes in(it's obvious that both die from hit). Deoxys-A is forced to switch out. So is Pheromosa, but it does chip damage in the process. This chip damage adds up later when it can eventually finish it off with high jump kick, as you can see from this calc.

The last statement does not make sense, but not in all cases. As you can see Pheromosa breaks certain pokemon better than Deoxys-A, and Deoxys-A from anything, so that argument can also go back to you.

Sorry if I sound rude, but I'm just wondering if you have ever seen a well-played choice band Pheromosa in action. It is surprisingly effective, I myself wouldn't say this if I didn't try it out. I was once like you, I thought Pheromosa should always use life orb. I decided to experiment, and it is quite effective.

Most of your statements have some truth to them, yet there are some loop holes. If my statements are not enough for it to rise, that's ok unless Pheromosa won't drop. It doesn't make sense. Your statements imply that you barely see any Pheromosa in Ubers, so I am not sure if you know what I am talking.
 
Uhhhhhhh....


First of all, look at your first statement. You completely missed the point. As you said, Pheromosa does not pack us much raw power as Deoxys-A. However, that is when U-turn comes in. You say the chip is absoulutely worthless and yet it the the reason why Pheromosa is able to clean up so easily late game.

And then your second statement comes in, are you saying that that is Pheromosa's only niche is that when I clearly stated it my second post? And if that is Pheromosa's only niche, then why would they place Pheromosa as high as B? There are many spinners available in Ubers yet most of them aren't ranked. That statement is honestly questionable. And Choice Band and Life orb sets do different things. Both annoy the enemy early game with U-Turn but given the freedom of Choice, life orb sets can be used to eliminate a certain pokemon in the enemy team that threaten the ally team, and also serves as a cleaner. Choice band is more of a mid-game wallbreaker.

I am not denying that Pheromosa is outclassed by Deoxys-A, yet they are walled by almost the same pokemon. Pheromosa is better in certain cases to break things Deoxys-A cannot break in one hit. For example we both know they cannot break Celestesteela.

252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Celesteela: 205-242 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(I picked Psycho boost because it does the most damage)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 256-303 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(the irony, but anyways)

This when U-Turn comes in(it's obvious that both die from hit). Deoxys-A is forced to switch out. So is Pheromosa, but it does chip damage in the process. This chip damage adds up later when it can eventually finish it off with high jump kick, as you can see from this calc.

The last statement does not make sense, but not in all cases. As you can see Pheromosa breaks certain pokemon better than Deoxys-A, and Deoxys-A from anything, so that argument can also go back to you.

Sorry if I sound rude, but I'm just wondering if you have ever seen a well-played choice band Pheromosa in action. It is surprisingly effective, I myself wouldn't say this if I didn't try it out. I was once like you, I thought Pheromosa should always use life orb. I decided to experiment, and it is quite effective.

Most of your statements have some truth to them, yet there are some loop holes. If my statements are not enough for it to rise, that's ok unless Pheromosa won't drop. It doesn't make sense. Your statements imply that you barely see any Pheromosa in Ubers, so I am not sure if you know what I am talking.
This is the last time I will respond to you because it's p much a waste of space in this thread and braincells die off every time, but here we go anyways:
And if that is Pheromosa's only niche, then why would they place Pheromosa as high as B?
I'm questioning this as well, along with your sanity. Honestly, it does have a niece, hence why it's there, but I do think it's ranked a bit too high. Look at Cloyster for example. It's also a pokemon that has a niece as suicide lead yet is also B-.
For example we both know they cannot break Celestesteela.
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Celesteela: 205-242 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(I picked Psycho boost because it does the most damage)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 256-303 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(the irony, but anyways)
Stop calcing fucking band, it's not a set and never will be. That's like choice banding Deoxys-A, that shit only works in adv.
This when U-Turn comes in(it's obvious that both die from hit). Deoxys-A is forced to switch out. So is Pheromosa, but it does chip damage in the process. This chip damage adds up later when it can eventually finish it off with high jump kick, as you can see from this calc.
Again, you can't U-turn if you went for a Choice Banded hjk, and if you went for U-turn in the first place then Celesteela eats it up and heals up like it wasn't even hit. They're not trapped or something, you can just switch them out, which is p much about as effective as U-turn is vs a Celesteela. And there is also protect to take into account + a miss chance for hjk. No clue why you wouldn't run Low or Double Kick. Stop saying Pheromosa breaks stuff that Deo-A doesn't lol, it's dumb.
Sorry if I sound rude, but I'm just wondering if you have ever seen a well-played choice band Pheromosa in action.
No I haven't, and hope I never will have to see that. You're probably the only person on this planet that uses this and actually thinks it's good.
It is surprisingly effective, I myself wouldn't say this if I didn't try it out. I was once like you, I thought Pheromosa should always use life orb. I decided to experiment, and it is quite effective.
Then you're not like me lol, I think Pheromosa shouldn't be used at all, unless you want to meme. But since it has its niece it deserves a semi-viable ranking.
It doesn't make sense. Your statements imply that you barely see any Pheromosa in Ubers, so I am not sure if you know what I am talking.
Lately I haven't, as it should be. I have seen a lot of ladder lords go to town with it though, but you don't see it at all in the tour scene, and that's with good reason. I can honestly say that out of all the times I've seen Pheromosa being used it never did anything.


Now that we're talking about Bug-types, can we rank Scolipede?
It does pretty much what it did last gen and it's still around (although a bit less effective).
No clue if it has an analysis but yeah, I think it should be ranked Nayrz.
 
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aurora

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Choice Band Pheromosa sounds awful. As if the unnecessary prediction reliance and exacerbated vulnerability to dangerous Ghost-types a Choice Band brings is not bad enough, Choice Band sets sacrifice any utility Pheromosa has, specifically Rapid Spin. I would rather use Deoxys-A if I wanted a frail nuke, as its coverage is far better.

I have no comment on most of Lucos's nominations, as I never use those Pokemon, but I do feel like Mega Blaziken should stay where it is. Excadrill and Dialga, while good, are extremely one-dimensional (and I personally feel as if Dialga is ranked too high, but I digress), whereas Blaziken has some room to fit coverage moves should it choose to run three attacks and has a much higher threat level due to the difficulty of outspeeding it at +1 (God help you if it gets both Attack and Speed boosts). Its superior Speed tier to its regular forme makes it far more dangerous and the Mega Speed mechanics change means that there are less situations where it must click Protect; for example, should it find its way in against a neutral max Speed Groudon at low health, it can actually not sacrifice momentum by clicking Protect. It should also not be underestimated how difficult it is to switch into Adamant Low Kicks; even support Arceus formes are 2HKOed after Stealth Rock.

I have one (somewhat inconsequential) nomination of my own. Arceus-Grass should move to the middle of C (maybe below the other two Arceus formes stuck in that rank). Metagame trends have tilted in its favour. The increased usage of Arceus-Ground this generation is great for Arceus-Grass, as it is probably Arceus-Ground's best counter; every set loses to Arceus-Grass. Primal Kyogre being quite difficult to check for many teams also makes Arceus-Grass worth considering on teams that need an emergency offensive check to it. Arceus-Grass is also a surprisingly effective partner to Mega Lucario on offensive teams. Mega Lucario struggles mightily with Arceus-Ground and Arceus-Water, particularly now that both of these formes often run enough Speed EVs to outspeed it. Arceus-Grass wipes the floor with both of these. In return, as Arceus-Grass has a pathetic matchup against stall, Mega Lucario can be of great assistance to it, defeating bulkier Pokemon, such as Chansey and Arceus-Dark, that Arceus-Grass loses to. Obviously, Arceus-Grass is still a mediocre Arceus forme with a plethora of common weaknesses and vulnerabilities to several top-tier Pokemon, meaning that builds featuring it have little wiggle room; however, for the reasons listed above, I do not feel it is on the same level of atrocity as Arceus-Electric, which is almost complete garbage.
 
Nomming cloyster from b- to b
I feel like cloyster with shell smash is just too much of an offensive threat for b- (especially considering things like arc ice and zekrom are above it) when cloyster is much more effective and used than mons like those. Not to mention it does an ok job at rapid spinning and seting spikes also. (Typing this on mobile so sorry if theres any spelling/spacing errors ill fix later)
 
Zekrom from B to B- or lower

Zekrom should be placed lower in ranking because it has so many common threats such as Bulky xern, pdon, groundceus and other variants. Even with dragonium z it doesn't kill groundceus or pdon. Same with electrium z vs bulk xern.

Sorry if this seems messy or whatever.. First time nominating any mon.
 

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Banned deucer.
I can second Palkia to B, below Darkrai. It does an incredible job in breaking down the fatter teams of late. Z-Heal Block is really quite the boon.

I also believe Arceus-Ghost should rise in A- to above Giratina-O (though I'm about to make another nom for that). I just don't see how this could be so low. Ghost-Z is an extremely valuable nuke to have in this meta, with tons of Psychics and many Ghosts as well running around and a general lack of Ghost resists. That last point really, REALLY helps it because once you get rid of the opponent's Ghost resist, another mon of the fat team is going down, and then the rest of the team just falls apart. I honestly can't see why this is lower than Rayquaza and Zygarde-C.

On a final note, Giratina-O to the bottom of A. This in my experience seems to be the go-to hazard remover on many offensive builds. It has a good offensive presence to deter many hazard setters. For example, Pdon takes around 60% from Draco, which is major chip that really wears it down. While many Arceus forms do give it competition, on offense Giratina-O tends to be the least passive.
 
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kilometerman

Banned deucer.
Zekrom from B to B- or lower

Zekrom should be placed lower in ranking because it has so many common threats such as Bulky xern, pdon, groundceus and other variants. Even with dragonium z it doesn't kill groundceus or pdon. Same with electrium z vs bulk xern.

Sorry if this seems messy or whatever.. First time nominating any mon.
All of those mons have a tough time switching into Zekrom. It can 2HKO all of them and everything other than Groundceus usually don't invest enough speed to hit it back before it kills.

252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 271-319 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon: 280-331 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon-Primal: 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 322-381 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 266-314 (77.7 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 406-478 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 373-441 (92.5 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon-Primal: 418-493 (122.5 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 484-570 (127 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
All of those mons have a tough time switching into Zekrom. It can 2HKO all of them and everything other than Groundceus usually don't invest enough speed to hit it back before it kills.

252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 271-319 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon: 280-331 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon-Primal: 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 322-381 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 266-314 (77.7 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 406-478 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 373-441 (92.5 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon-Primal: 418-493 (122.5 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 484-570 (127 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Those are not spreads though but ok
 
I'm not a regular here so pardon my ignorance, but i had to ask, why is Darkrai ranked at all? Let alone in B rank? I thought the dark void nerf would have slaughtered any viability Darkrai once had, why would you ever use this over arceus dark? i never see it used in ubers matches so what gives? There has to be something im missing
 
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I'm not a regular here so pardon my ignorance, but i had to ask, why is Darkrai ranked at all? Let alone in B rank? I thought the dark void nerf would have slaughtered any viability Darkrai once had, why would you ever use this over arceus dark? i never see it used in ubers matches so what gives? There has to be something im missing
It's main niche is Z-Hypnosis, alongside Nasty Plot, which is heavily outclassed by Lunala.
Although it definitely warrants a rank, it can surprisingly be an effective sweeper or wallbreaker to unprepared teams, I won't go too into depth too much but it still holds it's place in the metagame.
 

eren

je suis d'ailleurs
I'm not a regular here so pardon my ignorance, but i had to ask, why is Darkrai ranked at all? Let alone in B rank? I thought the dark void nerf would have slaughtered any viability Darkrai once had, why would you ever use this over arceus dark? i never see it used in ubers matches so what gives? There has to be something im missing
its main niche is not z-hypnosis. although this allows it to become very potent vs offense if it manages to land one it is very unreliable and ultimately very reliant on luck. a set for z-hypnosis darkrai would be dark pulse thunder hypnosis and nasty plot

it's best set is darkinium z dark pulse w/ nasty plot focus blast sludge bomb. this makes a very good breaker of more defensive teams while arceus dark typical runs a defog set as more of a defensive backbone to aid teams vs lunala and the such while being able to remove hazards for ho-oh and the like.

you can check the current analysis for sets. these questions are better suited for SQSA in the future.
 
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Time to add Marshadow I think.
With that speed tier and mostly its amazing signature move it well deserve A- between P-Kyogre and Celesteela.
Killing every SD Arceus and outspeeding most of the unscarfed mon is enogh to justify it.
On the defensive side it has Ghost type that alone is a nice thing. Stat wise its defences are nothing special but not awful either, and if you're worry about OHKO you can just sacrifice LO for Sash.
 
Time to add Marshadow I think.
With that speed tier and mostly its amazing signature move it well deserve A- between P-Kyogre and Celesteela.
Killing every SD Arceus and outspeeding most of the unscarfed mon is enogh to justify it.
On the defensive side it has Ghost type that alone is a nice thing. Stat wise its defences are nothing special but not awful either, and if you're worry about OHKO you can just sacrifice LO for Sash.
I think we need to wait a bit more for Marshadow to be ranked. It JUST came out this week.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
I think we need to wait a bit more for Marshadow to be ranked. It JUST came out this week.
I'm not so sure about that. I just started using Marshadow in Ubers, and I can say, it's very solid.

Obviously, the biggest thing it has going for it is an awesome Ghost/Fighting STAB combo, meaning it can hit every important Pokemon in the tier for at least neutral damage. 125 speed allows it to outspeed Arceus and Mega Lucario, as well as speed-tieing with Darkrai. Spectral Thief is an amazing move, being able to steal stat boosts. This makes it a reliable check to Extreme Killer Arceus. Meanwhile, it's z-move, Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike (say that 10 times fast), allows it to break down walls like Primal Groudon when paired with Bulk Up. It can also dispose of Mega Gengar, Mewtwo and Deoxys-A with Technician Shadow Sneak.

Lemme show you some calcs.


+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 306-361 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre: 357-421 (88.3 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Water: 322-381 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 484-571 (117.7 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar-Mega: 230-272 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 254-302 (71.9 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 330-393 (93.4 - 111.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 184 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 424-502 (99.2 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Final rating: A-, maybe even A.
 
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