Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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DEG

The night belongs to you
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Yea can we like stop bringing back Marshadow, I told you for a month or more to wait till the metagame adapt but no one was on my side so the Leadership team voted Ban, because the whole community was against it. There will NOT be a suspect test in the near future about Marshadow, drop it.

Can we STOP mixing a lot of discussions all together, it's really hard to understand and get the point when there's different Pokemon being discussed, just pick 1 topic and when it's done you can bring another one. I'd rather not talk about unbans but bans at this moment. Unbanning Deoxys-Normal just because Kyurem-Black is similar in power is a bad idea, we should look into banning Kyurem-Black and not unbanning Deoxys-Normal.

Also, please use the suspect philosophy correctly. A Pokemon should satisfy MOST OF the points to be in danger zone and not one that you cherry-pick (which is the percentage one like every time).
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
Can we STOP mixing a lot of discussions all together, it's really hard to understand and get the point when there's different Pokemon being discussed, just pick 1 topic and when it's done you can bring another one.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but didn't we have Pre-Suspects for this same reason? Due to how divided the community's focus was.
What happened to the PreS anyways?
 

pazza

Banned deucer.
It's been 1 month since the council decided to quickban Marshadow and we have 2 more months until Ultra Sun / Ultra Moon is released. Recently Whammerist suggested that we unban Deoxys to "save" the metagame. But well, I have a better suggestion.

UNBAN MARSHADOW
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I bet that after seeing this you'll be like "dude wtf is wrong with you Marshadow is broken af"
And I'll remind you that Kyurem-Black is still a thing.But we are not here to talk about how broken Kyurem-Black is that's a post for later.
Rather, I am here to get Marshadow unbanned.

First of all, why was it even banned? Yeah I get it's a good wallbreaker so and? Let me get you some counters for it.
Tapu Koko
Tapu Fini Isnt Viable
Altaria-Mega
Celesteela Isnt Viable or hp fire lol
Diancie/Diancie-Mega Isnt Viable(steel moves ;o)
Landorus-Therian
252- SpA Choice Specs Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 480-568 (125.6 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lopunny-Mega Protect 1st turn then CC
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 264-312 (82.2 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mawile-Mega
Mimikyu
Swampert-Mega 252- SpA Choice Specs Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 380-448 (111.4 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO GET OUT OF MY SWAMP
Scizor-Mega Hp fire
Talonflame Oh hey gen 6 bird!!
and more...

Secondly, Marshadow's decent speed and attack stats make it able to beat sleep abusers such as Jumpluff and Mega Gengar that are considered unhealthy by many.


Moreover, it beats Kyurem-Black.

Lastly, I am against the action of quickbanning Marshadow or anything, because it should be decided by the players whether a pokemon is broken or not.

Yeah that wasn't a long post.

open the quote
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
I can't believe I have to make a post about why not to unban Deo-N.

Let me stop you right here. Deo-N isn't like Tapu Koko or Porygon-Z. Tapu Koko has virtually no coverage moves and is a Stall breaker/nuke hybrid that likes to use Charge, Taunt, and Substitute to break through mons. For Koko to be an offensive mon like Deo-N, it would have to have significantly better coverage so that it could reasonably run Specs, Band, or even Life Orb instead of just Electrium Z. Porygon-Z, however, is not only significantly slower that it must reasonably run Scarf (while Deo-N could have its pick of items), but it's also strictly special (while Deo-N isn't). You say that, but it can also run Psychium Z Dual Screens, which if you know your matchups can prevent certain OHKOs and 2HKOs into 3HKOs, which is devastating.

Mega Gyarados is a 50/(almost)50 against Choice Specs Deoxys-N.
You have to run more than 248 HP/ 60 SpD Gyara for Base Gyara to even stand a chance of living a Modest Specs Psycho Boost, if you want to not mega every time and avoid Focus Blasts KOing Mega

Scarf Kyurem-B outspeeds only when running at least speed positive nature and 160 Spe EVs to Out Speed Timid DeoN which is incredibly restrictive.

Scarf Porygon-Z
I could make several stretches, but I won't because this is a fairly obvious check.

Snorlax has a hard time bulking Choice Band and Life Orb Superpowers from Physical Deo-N's.

Mega Metagross has to invest a lot of bulk to survive Choice Specs Dark Pulse and Z-Reflect makes Meteor Mash an OHKO to a 3HKO giving Deo-N the win.

Mega Mawile vs Reflect Deo-N is a 50/50 on whether or not to Sucker Punch or Play Rough vs Reflect or Shattered Psych

Magearna can beat Deo-N well enough.

Adamant Shadow Sneak Aegislash Blade is a 50% roll against max HP DeoN, while Dark Pulse blows it out of the water.

Donphan has a roughly 50% chance of KOing Z-Reflect Deo-N with Tectonic Rage and EQ or else it loses to Psycho Boost + Extreme Speed.

Mega Altaria needs a heck ton of Special Defense to survive a Shattered Psych

Mega Blaziken just dies to Shattered Psych.

Scarf Garchomp works

Golem has a roughly 50% chance of KOing a Z-Reflect Deo-N with Z move and Earthquake or Stone Edge or else it loses to Psycho Boost + Extreme Speed

Meloetta can't break Z-Light Screen Deo-N KOs with Dark Pulse

Tapu Fini can't break Light Screen Deo-N

Carracosta can't break Z-Reflect Deo-N and is KOed by Psycho Boost Extreme Speed

Crustle can break Z-Reflect Deo-N like 80% of the time

Mega Gardevoir just muscles past Z-Light Screen thanks to Pixilate
Ew Jirachi

Scarf Kartana works, but then again, it's Scarf Kartana

Sawk can't break Z-Reflect and is KOed by the usual Psycho Boost + Extreme Speed

Mega Swampert has to be very defensive if it wants to pull of Yawn/Protect Shenanigans, has to predict for CounterCoat, or gets bodied by Z-reflect. Overall in MegaPert's favor but not a counter

Scarf Durant works 80% of the time.

Scarf Lati@s works

Mew gets bodied by Z-Light Screen, eaten by Dark Pulse, and I don't really know how it can even beat Specs DeoN

Pheromosa usually works, but physically biased Life Orbs and Bands can cheese wins with ESpeed

Scarf Hoopa-U is fine.

Scarf Landorus is fine

Mega Sableye is fine

Scarf Vicitini works

Dusclops can lose to Choice Specs Dark Pulse

Hitmonlee loses to Espeed

Scarf Infernape works but doesn't use scarf typically

Scarf Nihilego has trouble KOing 252 HP DeoN, with only a 75% chance to KO with Modest Sludge Wave.


I tried not to be too extreme, i.e. Mixed Scarf DeoN and really only used a few sets. Speed minimized Max HP remaining SpA Single/Dual Screen with Psycho Boost, Dark Pulse or Focus Blast, And Extreme Speed with Psychium Z alongside Choice Specs DeoN and Life Orb Mixed DeoN. Overall DeoN's only real counters are Scarf Pokemon, which it could theoretically beat with a Mixed Scarf.

These calcs seem VERY cherrypicked and strange because it doesn't list all scenarios. These only really look at Choice Specs DeoN against some very bulky pokemon. Furthermore, these pokemon also have significant investment and aren't perfect. For example, a Life Orb Superpower DeoN could beat Snorlax and a Choice Specs Focus Blast forces MGyara into a 50/50 if it doesn't run that bulk.

Honestly, I think your assessment of DeoN's Speed tier is inaccurate. There are 9 pokemon that can run a scarf and outspeed DeoN. (Two regular pokemon naturally outspeed it.) And most of these are speed overkill. Scarf Garchomp had a 19% usage last month, Kartana 7%, Greninja 6%, Landorus 5%. These aren't typical Scarf Pokemon. And it's important to note as well that Scarf PZ and Scarf KyuB also don't run Max Speed as represented here, which they would be forced to do to outspeed DeoN.


Z-Screens is good.
Except not really. If Scarf Kyurem-B can run around, ANY Kyurem-B can run around just due to the nature of Kyurem-B. It's item versatility is so high, that unless a pokemon shuts down it's top sets, it doesn't really impact KyuB that much because KyuB can change sets easily to CTeam and bluff a Scarf even if it doesn't have it.

Except it also inspires the use of Jirachi because Jirachi is one of its few explicit counters

While technically correct, this argument hinges on the fact that Togekiss sees good amounts of play. It had 0.6% usage last month, almost entirely because Jirachi is almost as strictly better than it than any pokemon could possibly be strictly better than.

I have a couple mathematical issues with the anger against Jumpluff, but there are so many counters to it and Mega Gengar that I honestly don't think we need to introduce a counter for either. The 1v1 community just needs to get good.

Except Snorlax is a check, a loose one albeit, but a check nonetheless, meaning Deoxys wouldn't cause a direct decrease in usage on Snorlax. Also Snorlax doesn't mind sturdies if it can just Sleep Hax them.

What you're saying right here is my real issue. What you're proposing here is essentially "We have a couple of potentially ban-worthy pokemon, instead of banning them, let's introduce another one". WHICH IS BAD. I imagine if Rumple read that sentence he would freak out so so much. Broken pokemon (and others) aren't and shouldn't be dealt by introducing more broken pokemon, they should be dealt with via bans. Not only is it simpler and less likely to have drastic consequences, but it also prevents power creep. This is why Glyx made the satirical post about unbanning other pokemon, because at its core almost all broken pokemon could be theoretically balanced by each other until they are the meta and considered standard.
One of Kentari's Cardinal Rules of 1v1 went something like this: Bulky Offense will always be the best playstyle in 1v1. It's not really necessary to shift the meta back towards Bulky Megas because honestly, they're still the dominant force in the metagame.


I know it seems kind of weird to both quote and criticize Kentari from one line to the next, but I'm going to do it anyways. I know Kentari likes to think of Pokemon in the "is this pokemon better or worse than this one", but that's a very flawed way of thinking. Pokemon isn't like poker. There's not many things that are strictly better than other things. So by asking is something better or worse than Kyurem-B, the answer will almost always be yes and no. For example, Kyurem-B can't deal with Mega Blaziken that well. A Scarf KyuB is is outsped and KO'd, while a Icium Z set isn't strong enough. This forces KyuB into an unoptimal set (usually Specs) if it wants to beat Mega Blaziken. In comparison, Deoxys-N can easily beat Mega Blaziken thanks to Psychium Z which is a strong set on its own. Does that make DeoN better than Kyurem-B? Are both better than Mega Blaziken? Not really. Viability rankings exist not to quantify a power level for pokemon, but rather to kinda sorta illustrate that some pokemon perform well against others and are more likely to be used. This means you're more likely to flesh out a team or build a team around an S ranked pokemon than you are a D rank pokemon (or god forbid Do Not Use Pokemon like lost hero). In this sense, it's very difficult to tell whether or not Deoxys-N "is better or worse than" Kyurem-B. Deoxys-N can easily be used to be a blanket counter to a large group of pokemon with one set or a different group with another. And it also can be supported by many pokemon as its flaws can be patched up with bulk.
What the shit? I naturally assumed that Deoxys-N's bulk was just too pitiful to pull off something like Z-Reflect. Guess I was wrong. Now I'm starting to have second thoughts about this. Still slightly more in favor of an unban, but not as much. The only issue I see with Z-Screens is consuming half of your moveslots, meaning you could miss out on coverage for certain things. With that said, damn.

Edit: Sorry for short post, I might make a better one when I have time
 
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I may have done a mistake not mentioning other things that beat a standard Marshadow (the set that supposingly won against 70% of the metagame)
.Also, I didn't see a single Roseli Berry/Assault Vest/Marshadow bulky enough to beat Mega Lopunny during the time when Marshadow was allowed so I do NOT consider these as viable sets. There are plenty of other things that can beat Marshadow including Magearna, most Dragonites, Taunt WoW Mega Sableye, Torkoal, Banded/Fairium Azumarill, Granbull which is the current meta, offensive Psychium-Z Deo-S, Scarf Victini, a specific Genesect set and more.

Overall I think the meta can adapt to Marshadow just as it did with Porygon-Z in Gen 6 (although Porygon-Z wasn't considered broken)
 

Elo Bandit

youtube.com/ EloBandit
is a Community Contributor
I may have done a mistake not mentioning other things that beat a standard Marshadow (the set that supposingly won against 70% of the metagame)
.Also, I didn't see a single Roseli Berry/Assault Vest/Marshadow bulky enough to beat Mega Lopunny during the time when Marshadow was allowed so I do NOT consider these as viable sets. There are plenty of other things that can beat Marshadow including Magearna... Banded/Fairium Azumarill, Granbull
Here you go.


Marshadow @ Roseli Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 8 HP / 108 Atk / 252 Def / 140 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Substitute
- Endeavor
- Counter / Close Combat

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 8 HP / 252+ Def Marshadow: 57-67 (17.6 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Giga Impact vs. 8 HP / 252+ Def Marshadow: 211-249 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Last Resort vs. 8 HP / 252+ Def Marshadow: 196-232 (60.6 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(No one uses Adamant Lopunny in a meta where Jolly Marshadow is the most common set)

This also beats Fairium Z Mimikyu and Specs Fleur Cannon Magearna. Using Counter lets you bait in and demolish Mega Mawile. It even beats Granbull and Azumarill.

~~~

TLs have already said Marshadow won't be suspected, why are you still fighting this
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Can we STOP mixing a lot of discussions all together, it's really hard to understand and get the point when there's different Pokemon being discussed, just pick 1 topic and when it's done you can bring another one. I'd rather not talk about unbans but bans at this moment. Unbanning Deoxys-Normal just because Kyurem-Black is similar in power is a bad idea, we should look into banning Kyurem-Black and not unbanning Deoxys-Normal.

Also, please use the suspect philosophy correctly. A Pokemon should satisfy MOST OF the points to be in danger zone and not one that you cherry-pick (which is the percentage one like every time).
Agreeing what you said, this is how were things:

* You talked about Sleep
* I posted my stance and one of the points had "Sleep abusers are Gengar / Gardevoir / Jumpluff"
* Someone started "one of the points you mentioned are not 100% right" and like 20+ posts about what sleep users are relevant
* PU 1v1, which I like but wasn't posted in the best moment
* Unban Deoxys-N (...)
* A page discussion about Blaziken that started from pointing out one sentence that didn't sound pleasant (which I have seen happening a lot of times in this thread, including when DEG left us with a rhetorical question asking "What makes Kyurem-B more broken than other threats?" I responded and two or more people talking about Keldeo Ev's and shit)
* All the way here.

No, we are not unbanning Marshadow, there has been enough clarification about the reason of banning Marshadow by 1v1 leaders and couple other users' commentary. No, we are not unbanning Deo-D and the should-be-obvious reasons have been mentioned in this thread and I believe that nothing in the world will be wrong with Deo-D or Blaziken spread discussion taking place in Discord chat instead of this thread. I am still considering Kyurem-B as suspectworthy threat while Sleep / Serene Grace should be looked upon. At this point, things got screwed up so probably a mod will assign us a new topic or we will just assume we are sticking to the topic of Sleep in 1v1 which is the latest announcement-ish post that DEG has posted.
 

Nalei

strong, wild garbage
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Moreover, the community wasn't even solidly certain as to whether Marshadow should be banned or not, and if they seemed like they were, it was only because of some people spreading misinformation about how it beats 70~ % of the meta.
Glyx, I calculated it with the VR. UOP calculated it with usage stats. We both got over 70% (DEG has helped me realize this is a flawed argument when used straight, but the numbers still don't lie). So ffs, stop repetitively refuting this point unless you did the math and found something different (if you did, I'd genuinely like to see it) or you found some significant flaw in our approaches to coming up with these numbers.
Sorry, what? Do you know how many Pokemon get Hypnosis? Are you seriously advocating Wide Lens as the factor that busts Darkrai? Look at Crobat - it can also "run something like Wide Lens to sort of patch up that mediocre accuracy, and it can also set up with Nasty Plot, or use items like Life Orb/Z-move" but that doesn't mean its broken, or even good. Darkrai is good because it has a unique and strong combination of typing, stats, and coverage that let it go toe to toe with the rest of the metagame without relying on a 60 I'm sorry, 66 percent accurate cheese move.

If you could link deg's post that'd be great.
Yes.
I may have done a mistake not mentioning other things that beat a standard Marshadow (the set that supposingly won against 70% of the metagame)
.Also, I didn't see a single Roseli Berry/Assault Vest/Marshadow bulky enough to beat Mega Lopunny during the time when Marshadow was allowed so I do NOT consider these as viable sets. There are plenty of other things that can beat Marshadow including Magearna, most Dragonites, Taunt WoW Mega Sableye, Torkoal, Banded/Fairium Azumarill, Granbull which is the current meta, offensive Psychium-Z Deo-S, Scarf Victini, a specific Genesect set and more.

Overall I think the meta can adapt to Marshadow just as it did with Porygon-Z in Gen 6 (although Porygon-Z wasn't considered broken)
Yes, we'll just adapt... We gave the meta a whole month to adapt, and it was still deemed horrendously broken. Anyways, I'm done arguing about Marshadow.



Let's talk Deoxys. There's a lot of discussion about it, and as of starting writing this, I'm not sure where I stand. First of all, here's some sets for it:
Deoxys @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Boost
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast

Deoxys @ Psychium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 152 HP / 116 SpA / 108 SpD / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Boost
- Reflect
- Recover
- Light Screen

Deoxys @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Boost
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam

Deoxys @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 20 SpA / 236 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Focus Punch
- Psycho Boost
- Filler
- Filler

Deoxys @ Electrium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Zap Cannon
- Psycho Boost
- Filler
- Filler

The first set (Choice Specs) would most likely be the standard. It packs a ridiculous punch with Psycho Boost. Thunder can OHKO offensive (bad) variants of Gyarados as well as Celesteela without SpD investment. Ice Beam takes out non-Band non-bulky Dragonite. Focus Blast is used to hit slow, bulky Kyurem, Mega Tyranitar and miscellaneous dark types. Psychium Z hits significantly less hard, but allows it to circumvent its usual checks of Donphan, Golem and Magnezone with Z-Screens while still hitting reasonably hard with a 200 BP Shattered Psyche. Choice Scarf allows Deoxys to outspeed and OHKO many opposing scarfers who would otherwise beat Deoxys. Fightinium Z is a good lure for Chansey, Blissey and Snorlax while Electrium Z OHKOs the vast majority of Gyarados, but the opportunity cost is very high with these last 2 sets as it leaves Psycho Boost unboosted. With all of these, sets we can construct a list of relevant counters:
Scarf Kyurem-B (with a non-SpD lowering nature), Tapu Lele, Band Dragonite, Mega Mawile, Mega Metagross, Non-Curse Mimikyu, Aegislash, Meloetta, X-Scissor Crustle, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Sableye, Scarf Sawk, Scarf Latios, Adamant Fake Out+Bullet Punch Mega Medicham and Victini.
This list comprises of 16 pokemon, but only half of them aren't set-specific. Let's do some calculations with usage stats...
Scarf Kyurem-B: 6.2%
Tapu Lele: 7.8%
Band Dragonite: 1.1%
Mega Mawile: 4.9%
Mega Metagross: 10.7%
Non-Curse Mimikyu: 3.1%
Aegislash: 4.6%
Meloetta: 2.9%
X-Scissor Crustle: 1.9%
Mega Gardevoir: 2.8%
Mega Sableye: 1.6%
Scarf Sawk: 0.7%
Scarf Latios: 0.2%
Adamant BP Mega Medicham: ~0%
Victini: 1.4%
Total: 49.9%

16 counters might not seem like that many, but it turns out to be literally half of the meta (well, 49.9% of it anyways). Here's some ways that you should not interpret this data: "Deoxys 3-0s half of all teams!" "Deoxys beats half of the meta!" How to interpret this data: "All of Deoxys' sets combined manage to beat half of all pokemon." I was previously pretty unsure about whether or not Deoxys is balanced, but I honestly can't think of any ways it could become a serious problem at this point.


Kyurem-B is an extraordinarily diverse pokemon that can pull off any of its sets with insane viability. Because each of its sets have different counters, it is common to lose to Kyurem-B simply because you didn't know what set it is. However, in my opinion, Kyurem-B wouldn't be broken if you could immediately tell what set it was at team preview. This however, is not the case, which makes it extraordinarily easy to lose to Kyurem because you didn't know what set it is. But what if this isn't the case? What if we can tell what set Kyurem is? Here's my guide on how to predict what set Kyurem is running:

To start, I made a sheet of every Kyurem set (oops forget Roseli, but I'm lazy and it doesn't really matter lol) and their matchups against almost every relevant mon/set in the meta. A quick note with this: many of these matchups aren't necessarily the true outcome, but rather the outcome that's useful for predicting Kyurem's set. In addition, small nitpicks (you got x matchups wrong) are insignificant. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hasrY723LrbmIRZQJ4UV01-Lb3CXmFMq0OYYIptIO9k/edit#gid=0
In this form, the data isn't very useful. How about I cut it down to just the ones we can use to help predict? That is, pokemon that are commonly prepared for and have useful data in the W/L section. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B3eOipKumWmx5dFfADiz_2LL9CWvb3FUmLMwF1p-l8M/edit#gid=0
With this, we can come up with the following rules:
If they autolose to x, it's y...
Mega Gyarados - Weakness Policy
Mega Charizard Y or Nihilego - Scarf or Assault Vest
Magearna and Mega Metagross- Groundium
Mega Mawile or Bold Mega Slowbro- Specs or Groundium
Fairum Mimikyu - Icium or Band
Calm Mega Slowbro - Band or Electrium
Scarf or Bulky Specs Genesect or Mega Tyranitar or Buzzwole - Specs
Offensive Specs Genesect or Mega Lucario - Special Scarf
Offensive Mega Gardevoir - Choice Scarf
Steelium Kartana or Jumpluff or Band Archeops - Scarf or Special Scarf
CounterCoat Mega Swampert - Icium
Scarf Latios - Haban or Assault Vest
Z-Charm Umbreon - Offensive Band

If they autolose to x, it's not y
Metal Burst Mega Aggron - Special Scarf
Ghostium Mimikyu - Groundium
Band Tapu Bulu - Scarf or Haban Berry

Let's put these rules to the test! One additional rule: If the results contradict themselves, assume that Kyurem is running its most common set that has not already been ruled out. I've asked all around for everyone's Kyurem teams, and collected a 40 team sample. Here's the results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1w6AY5AScXNt33B0JTD_4Ny9vIS25xpz3oaEWB55JqB8/edit#gid=0
Only 13/40 of the predictions were correct, and out of the 13 that were correct, 5 were uncertain. At this point, it should be pretty obvious that it's impossible to reliably predict what Kyurem your opponent is running at team preview. This is problematic because not knowing what set Kyurem is is the difference between a win and a loss. Some people might say "you only lose one game and then you know what set it is." Correct. However, this game, on the high ladder, might have just lost you 40 ELO! Or perhaps you're in the official and the one loss translates to you simply losing the tour.
 
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Adamant BP Mega Medicham: ~0%

I'm so down. Let's unban Deo-N. I want to live in a world where Adamant BP Mega Medicham is a thing. I'ma end some 1v1 careers with Adamant Bullet Punch.

I am incredibly sick of this reasoning being consistently brought up in this thread. I was planning on making a lengthy post of argumentative tactics I wanted to disallow, and this is one of them. Saying that we banned something because we didn't like it or because "it was annoying" when there are pages upon pages of discussion as to why both of these Pokemon were banworthy (not to mention the fact that Deoxys-D was banned by an overwhelming contingent of suspect votes...) is basically the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and chanting "la la la la la..." when someone says something you disagree with.

I can promise you that DEG, TI, and I do not make decisions with this mindset. I'd also like to add that the vast majority of the community was in favor of a Marshadow ban and, as wishes put it, it's ridiculous to bring it up this soon after. We don't reverse suspect decisions according to our mood.
UC, I can only think it was banned because the people who voted didn't like it, since it isn't OP and isn't overly haxy. So why was it banned? I can only assume because it was annoying. It doesn't matter, though. That's just where I'm coming from.


Let me try to be as clear as I can. For DEG.


Sleep
1. Snorlax, Jumpluff and Gengar-Mega aren't OP and none of the other Pokémon that use sleep are better than them. I think everyone agrees on that.
2. Are they unfair? I don't think so. Not any more unfair than Will-o-Wisp from Mega-Sableye or losing because you missed Rock Tomb. I don't think they really create many more 50/50s than, say, Mega-Venusaur.
3. I think sleep moves are far more valuable than accuracy-reducing moves. There would be far more collateral damage.



Darkrai
Maybe it's OP. Macemater and I don't think so and I think we're pretty good judges of what is and isn't good in 1v1. Wouldn't it be fun to suspect it? We can just choose not to unban it if it's too OP.


Zygarde-Complete
This wouldn't even be good. Zygarde without Power Complete is basically unusable. It has no ability and transforms into a bad version of Chansey. Its typing isn't very good. It seems obvious to me that this Pokémon is worse than Gyarados, so it should be allowed. I haven't seen a good reason not to allow it.


What is Allowed in 1v1
It seems clear to me, although this has never been explicitly stated, that any Pokémon worse than Mega-Gyarados is allowed in 1v1, and any Pokémon better is banned. I don't know why Mega-Gyarados is the benchmark and I don't know if it should be. I am just pointing out that it is what is currently being used to decide what is broken and what is not in 1v1.


Please ban Brightpowder
 
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I'm so down. Let's unban Deo-N. I want to live in a world where Adamant BP Mega Medicham is a thing. I'ma end some 1v1 careers with Adamant Bullet Punch.



UC, I can only think it was banned because the people who voted didn't like it, since it isn't OP and isn't overly haxy. So why was it banned? I can only assume because it was annoying. It doesn't matter, though. That's just where I'm coming from.


Let me try to be as clear as I can. For DEG.


Sleep
1. Snorlax, Jumpluff and Gengar-Mega aren't OP and none of the other Pokémon that use sleep are better than them. I think everyone agrees on that.
2. Are they unfair? I don't think so. Not any more unfair than Will-o-Wisp from Mega-Sableye or losing because you missed Rock Tomb. I don't think they really create many more 50/50s than, say, Mega-Venusaur.
3. I think sleep moves are far more valuable than accuracy-reducing moves. There would be far more collateral damage.



Darkrai
Maybe it's OP. Macemater and I don't think so and I think we're pretty good judges of what is and isn't good in 1v1. Wouldn't it be fun to suspect it? We can just choose not to unban it if it's too OP.


Zygarde-Complete
This wouldn't even be good. Zygarde without Power Complete is basically unusable. It has no ability and transforms into a bad version of Chansey. Its typing isn't very good. It seems obvious to me that this Pokémon is worse than Gyarados, so it should be allowed. I haven't seen a good reason not to allow it.


What is Allowed in 1v1
It seems clear to me, although this has never been explicitly stated, that any Pokémon worse than Mega-Gyarados is allowed in 1v1, and any Pokémon better is banned. I don't know why Mega-Gyarados is the benchmark and I don't know if it should be. I am just pointing out that it is what is currently being used to decide what is broken and what is not in 1v1.


Please ban Brightpowder
Every single one of those arguments are faulty, aver I'll pointing it out in a while
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
Glyx, I calculated it with the VR. UOP calculated it with usage stats. We both got over 70% (DEG has helped me realize this is a flawed argument when used straight, but the numbers still don't lie). So ffs, stop repetitively refuting this point unless you did the math and found something different (if you did, I'd genuinely like to see it) or you found some significant flaw in our approaches to coming up with these numbers.
The main problem with how you and UOP handled your calculations is that you assumed if Marsh beats one set, it beats them all. UOP was at least a little better than that, but not perfect Not to mention, you used your own weighting system, as well as based things off of the VR, which hasn't been anything more than a meme since Gen 6.

The main problem with using the VR for calculations is that the VR isn't heavily consistent. Most mons in it are either there because someone posted a good-ish set for it once (Stunfisk, Vivillon, Buzzwole, Landorus-T, etc) or we had to estimate the viability of an already good mon and give it a placement (Blaziken/Mega, Altaria, Hoopa-U, Chansey, Aggron-Mega, etc). These mons aren't really used that much, yet they're still ranked pretty solidly on the VR. In short, the problem with using VR for anything trying to be mathematic is that the VR is based mostly off of estimations of a mon's potential, with a lesser factor of popularity contributing to it as well.

I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that it beats 73% of the meta. I can only assume that they're talking about beating "common" sets of individual mons and using that as what the entire mon is used for. A key example here is how Kyurem-Sets that aren't Scarf almost all beat non-Fightium Marshadow

Glyx☃: .usage kyuremblack items 1v1
*TIBot: Choice Scarf 48.078% | Icium Z 23.647% | Choice Band 14.487% | Dragonium Z 1.999% | Choice Specs 1.972% | Haban Berry 1.512% | Electrium Z 1.485% | Power Herb 1.332% | Life Orb 1.151% | Other 4.337%
Glyx☃: .usage 2 1v1
*TIBot: Kyurem-Black - #2 in 1v1 | Usage: 13.32658% | Raw count: 27,012 | Weight: 0.848747984206

So in this mon alone, a solid 6.9% from non-Scarfed Kyubes has been shaved off of that daunting "73%" you guys are so worried about. I wonder how much more we can shave off if we look at all the other mons Marshadow "beats"?
Note: ofc not ALL non-scarf kyub beat Marsh, but the relevant ones listed above do, and by all means, we can delve even deeper into the rabbit hole by examining particular spreads, since 1v1 is in a transition phase where what people actually use is becoming more dominant than what is legitimately good, meaning these usage stats really do matter.
Note 2: I know these usage stats aren't up to date, but I doubt the usage will have shifted THAT much.
Use this post as a benchmark for how alternative sets invalidate your theory. Albeit, I made a few small errors myself in relating the real 6.9% to your 73% and not providing calculations and probabilities for how Kyurem would win the matchup, but regardless, it uses real numbers that result from what people actually use in 1v1. If I were enough of a masochist, I'd delve into the usage stats and do this for each mon to provide a REAL % of meta that Marsh beats that isn't biased in any way.

The only point of uncertainty with this method is deciding whether to use optimized Marsh vs optimized mon, or common spread Marsh (252atk/252+spe) vs common spread mon, since assuming optimized anything vs common anything is always going to be skewed in the optimized mon's favor.
 

Felucia

Robot Empress
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
I know how much you guys like to prove each other wrong but Marshadow is in the past and I'm starting to really get annoyed with everyone trying to have the last word on this dead discussion.

Reasonable Topics:
1: Sleep ban

- Should sleep be banned yes/no?
- Only ban specific moves? if so which ones?​
2: Deoxys Unban
- Should it be unbanned yes/no?
- I'm still wondering if the versatility people keep pointing out is actually viable. Show me some calcs because I like calcs​
3: Literally anything else that isn't Marshadow
- 1v1 Sketchmons and 1v1 AAA need sample teams
- 1v1 Monotype could use a list of viable lures for each type, like Fairium-Z Koko because Electric struggles vs Kyurem-Black
- I've been hearing a lot of musharna hype but haven't seen a post on it. Would be cool.
- Go post on the VR/Resources thread, that thing always needs changes​
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
- I've been hearing a lot of musharna hype but haven't seen a post on it. Would be cool.
Ask, and you shall receive!
mushartna.gif

Musharna
Why is it good?

First of all, lemme say this: If you're running Yawn + Psychic move Musharna, you're doing it wrong.

i sleep (Musharna) (M) @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Forewarn
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 40 SpA / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Barrier
- Moonlight/Rest
- Stored Power

This is the set you should be running.

So, you may see Calm Mind + Barrier and think "Ok, so it's a worse Mega Slowbro????" You may seem that way at first, but that's where Stored Power comes into play. Stored Power gives Mushy plenty of offensive power after setting up a bit.

"But isn't it just an inferior Mega Latias now????"

Nope. You see, Musharna gets Barrier, meaning it can fortify defense AND special defense, unlike Latios, This means it doesn't lose to Kyub and Zard X.

"But Draco Meteor"

Scarf Kyurem-Black memes, and Charizard just DDances before Mega evolving.

Other things Musharna beats that Latias doesn't:

Tapu Lele

Magearna (252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Musharna: 364-430 (83.4 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) (252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 330-390 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

some other things i am sure

mega latias is smelly bad use musharna is betr
 

Felucia

Robot Empress
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
Ask, and you shall receive!
View attachment 88485
Musharna
Why is it good?

First of all, lemme say this: If you're running Yawn + Psychic move Musharna, you're doing it wrong.

i sleep (Musharna) (M) @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Forewarn
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 40 SpA / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Barrier
- Moonlight/Rest
- Stored Power

This is the set you should be running.

So, you may see Calm Mind + Barrier and think "Ok, so it's a worse Mega Slowbro????" You may seem that way at first, but that's where Stored Power comes into play. Stored Power gives Mushy plenty of offensive power after setting up a bit.

"But isn't it just an inferior Mega Latias now????"

Nope. You see, Musharna gets Barrier, meaning it can fortify defense AND special defense, unlike Latios, This means it doesn't lose to Kyub and Zard X.

"But Draco Meteor"

Scarf Kyurem-Black memes, and Charizard just DDances before Mega evolving.

Other things Musharna beats that Latias doesn't:

Tapu Lele

Magearna (252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Musharna: 364-430 (83.4 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) (252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 330-390 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

some other things i am sure

mega latias is smelly bad use musharna is betr
Latias gets charm which ends up doing the same as barrier but better because it actually negates people boosting attack, at which point I feel like mega latias is indeed better.
Very cool set though
 
Latias gets charm which ends up doing the same as barrier but better because it actually negates people boosting attack, at which point I feel like mega latias is indeed better.
Very cool set though
belly drumers are threat for charms and other moves of that type in contrary of barrier and iron crusher defense
but exclusing tht fact m lati is way better
ye i hate these fat snorlaxess
 
Ask, and you shall receive!
View attachment 88485
Musharna
Why is it good?

First of all, lemme say this: If you're running Yawn + Psychic move Musharna, you're doing it wrong.

i sleep (Musharna) (M) @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Forewarn
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 40 SpA / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Barrier
- Moonlight/Rest
- Stored Power

This is the set you should be running.

So, you may see Calm Mind + Barrier and think "Ok, so it's a worse Mega Slowbro????" You may seem that way at first, but that's where Stored Power comes into play. Stored Power gives Mushy plenty of offensive power after setting up a bit.

"But isn't it just an inferior Mega Latias now????"

Nope. You see, Musharna gets Barrier, meaning it can fortify defense AND special defense, unlike Latios, This means it doesn't lose to Kyub and Zard X.

"But Draco Meteor"

Scarf Kyurem-Black memes, and Charizard just DDances before Mega evolving.

Other things Musharna beats that Latias doesn't:

Tapu Lele

Magearna (252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Musharna: 364-430 (83.4 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) (252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 330-390 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

some other things i am sure

mega latias is smelly bad use musharna is betr
I can prove you that you are wrong and that Mega Latias is better in 7 ways.

1.If you haven't noticed latias gets CHARM
yeah it may lose to Mega Metagross but who cares.
2.Soo Latias is a Dragon meaning it resist Water, Fire, Grass and Electric (spoiler:it beats Charizard Y).
3.It gets recover instead of Moonlight meaning it stands a chance against stuff like Tyranitar/Gigalith etc.
4.It has literally every stat better except its HP stat.
5.Levitate. Ground types can't hit it as hard (yeah Donphan gets Ice Shard but let's be honest that does nothing also Golem gets Sucker Punch which is not that good against a Mon that usually runs 3 status moves.)

6.Mega Latias has ACTUAL OFFENSIVE STATS! Crazy?

7:Mega Latias has a huge variety of coverage moves it can run.

I'm bored to write more.

EDIT:Btw musharna is outclassed by cresselia at any other set it tries to run
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
I can prove you that you are wrong and that Mega Latias is better in 7 ways.

1.If you haven't noticed latias gets CHARM
yeah it may lose to Mega Metagross but who cares.
2.Soo Latias is a Dragon meaning it resist Water, Fire, Grass and Electric (spoiler:it beats Charizard Y).
3.It gets recover instead of Moonlight meaning it stands a chance against stuff like Tyranitar/Gigalith etc.
4.It has literally every stat better except its HP stat.
5.Levitate. Ground types can't hit it as hard (yeah Donphan gets Ice Shard but let's be honest that does nothing also Golem gets Sucker Punch which is not that good against a Mon that usually runs 3 status moves.)

6.Mega Latias has ACTUAL OFFENSIVE STATS! Crazy?

7:Mega Latias has a huge variety of coverage moves it can run
I'm bored to write more.
musharna will always be better in my heart <3
 

Nalei

strong, wild garbage
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I can prove you that you are wrong and that Mega Latias is better in 7 ways.

1.If you haven't noticed latias gets CHARM
yeah it may lose to Mega Metagross but who cares.
2.Soo Latias is a Dragon meaning it resist Water, Fire, Grass and Electric (spoiler:it beats Charizard Y).
3.It gets recover instead of Moonlight meaning it stands a chance against stuff like Tyranitar/Gigalith etc.
4.It has literally every stat better except its HP stat.
5.Levitate. Ground types can't hit it as hard (yeah Donphan gets Ice Shard but let's be honest that does nothing also Golem gets Sucker Punch which is not that good against a Mon that usually runs 3 status moves.)

6.Mega Latias has ACTUAL OFFENSIVE STATS! Crazy?

7:Mega Latias has a huge variety of coverage moves it can run.

I'm bored to write more.

EDIT:Btw musharna is outclassed by cresselia at any other set it tries to run
It's niche, in my opinion over Mega Latias, is that it's not weak to dragon and ice. This lets it beat almost any Kyurem set. Cresselia can't do this because it doesn't learn Barrier (next best thing is Z-Reflect, which means no Aguav). Musharna is hype imo.
 
Replays are down but have no fear. DEG is here. Counter Gengar OP = DEG is OP. Try not to focus on how DEG is a female in this picture. This picture does not represent DEG irl. Climb to 1500 easy with it. :P
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
Honestly I'm really looking forward to a power construct suspect, as I don't see how it could make zygarde broken with the prevalence of mons which OHKO it in its base form before it can activate power construct (Garchomp, Dragonite, Kyurem-Black, Charizard-X etc) and also because of the fact that it's attacking stats aren't boosted which means stuff like mega Gyarados can easily take hits from it even after power construct activates and proceed to defeat it.
 
Okay, in the light of ZyGod being sustested let's get down to discussing how it's gonna affect the meta:

ZYGARDE-COMPLETE:
Ability: Power Construct
Stats: 216HP/100Atk/121Def/91SpA/95SpDef/85Speed.

I won't take sides, just a sketch on how this could possibly be used to the optimal level.

Set1: Coil/rest

Set: Glare/Coil/Rest/1000Arrows
Zygarde in its 50% had decent defence and HP, allowing it to set up COIL against physical attackers like gyarados-Mega, Landorus-Therian, and then rest for HP recovery, and after PowerConstruct, it is gonna get difficult without a crit to kill him.

Set2: DDance/1000Arrows/ESpeed/Outrage

This set, though less effective could still work for faster setup/kill, especially against things like MAggron and stuff.

So, I actually see a positive influence due to ZyGod for the meta.
 
Since Power Construct doesn't activate until you're low HP and activates after healing berries (at end of turn), so the extra HP only makes a difference in a few situations. Don't get me wrong, its good, but not anywhere near broken.

Also DEG, please unban Mud Bomb and Muddy Water. Obviously neither of them are broken, and are simply limiting coverage on a few mons.

Goodra lacks viable special water coverage now, and Mud Bomb is the second most powerful special ground move (limiting those without Earth Power, especially those that want to Z-Ground and only have HP Ground or the weaker Mud Shot). However, all mons with Leaf Tornado already have better grass moves without drawback, for now.

Thanks for reading everyone :)
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
MaceMaster once has posted a set about Aura Break(...) Zygarde that uses Groudium Z set. I will copy and paste the set below:

Link to post


Zygarde @ Groundium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 248 HP / 212 Atk / 16 Def / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Rock Slide

Apparently the EV's were optimized to outspeed Jolly Mega Metagross at +1, bulk to live megagross Ice Punch / others stuff and enough Attack to blow up Magearna using Tectonic Rage (I don't remember honestly, it ha been a while from when I was using this set like very match). I personally believe the set is one of the best posts in Creative and Underrated sets thread due to Zygarde having enough bulk to set up on fat stallers (most notably being able to make a Substitute that is 100+ HP). Also Thousand Arrows has near perfect coverage and is probably the best selling point of using Zygarde because it can hit Flying types and the only resisting targets are Bug and Grass from which majority are not viable anyway (notable exceptions will be Mega Heracross, Buzzwole, pre-mega evo Pinsir, etc).

So I heard Power Construct is going to be suspected. Well, what I generally predict about it is that it won't make the metagame unhealthy in any way because while Zygarde-C is disgustingly fat and may be able to live stuff like zard X Outrage, it needs to take damage first, and this prevents the abuse of bulk. Meaning, the user still has to carefully play against threats like Gyarados to successfully go through transformation and double the size of its bulk. And it will still lose against the likes of Greninja and Kyurem-B, keeping the 1v1 food chain from getting totally flipped up.

Some possible sets I can come up with are the ones that are meant to help Zygarde transform safely:

* Glare + Substitute spam against faster threats
* Substitute spam against slower threats and running Rest or extra coverage

... with the assumption that all sets will have Thousand Arrows and Dragon Dance / possibly Coil.

Anyways I am excited to see this unbanned, but I won't solidify my stance just yet because not much is known about how Zygarde-C will affect the current meta.
 
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