Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

[FlamingVictini]

I don't want to go too deeply into Naganadel since all the main points I wanted to talk about have basically been covered in other posts, but Naganadel basically forces one or two of a small subset of ou viable mons on every team. I've found that this tends to restrict me to very similar cores on every team, and its a pain to avoid using bulky ttar on every team rn because it just offers so much role compression. Originally I tried to just settle with getting damage on setup + priority + sand chip with CB Tar, but I was forced to switch to AV because I couldn't handle Nagandel consistently enough without having to sack a mon every time it came in, and this really hurt my ability to break bulkier teams. Naganadel is definitely quite restricting even if it isn't outright broken, and I feel it is having an unhealthy polarizing effect on the tier.

Stakataka seems quite good to me, although one of its niches rn is checking Naganadel, which will probably mean its value will decrease if naga is banned like I expect. I think full TR teams are still meh and not that much better with Staka, but I really like Staka on BO, where I feel an OTR set can be just as good or even better than CB at times, mostly because the Z-move keeps it very threatening, and also because with TR you can make better use of attack boosts since you won't be forced out as often after a kill.

Regarding Blacephalon, I'm struggling with it right now simply because AV TTar is way too common. At least with a choice specs set and appropriate coverage, Specs Blace can try to get past CB Tar with some hazards damage, but right now it just can't do anything bar wisp or trick. I'm really interested to see how the meta will shift after a potential naga ban, as Blaca's 3 main sets (Specs, Scarf, and CM Ghostium) are all quite dangerous vs teams without tyranitar.

My experience with Kommo-o in ou has been pretty lackluster so far. The biggess issue is getting off a clangorous soulblaze vs a team with a fairy type (you need +atk iron tail to have a < 50% chance to 2hko clef, for example), it's outrun by every relevant scarfer, and it quickly weakens its defenses when using moves like CC and Clanging Scales, leaving itself open to priority. I haven't really toyed with many of the new defog mons especially since I find it hard to fit on defensive lando, but in my experience playing against defog gliscor, it can be quite troublesome especially if your rocker is a defensive lando. I'm also struggling to fit knock off on mons like pex because its moveslots are all so important, although I think scarf kartana can make use of knock if Giga Impact / Aerial Ace / Defog isn't needed, especially since it can ohko blacephalon with it. I'm interested to know if anyone has tried out mega sharpedo with liquidation; the extra BP probably doesn't make a huge difference but I remember shark was quite good around the release of SM and it would be cool to see it rising again, especially since mons like Tar, SDef Tran, and SDef Pex are so common rn thanks to naga and can be taken advantage of (Mega Gyara should also be able to take advantage of these mons and would be better vs bulkier teams).

Also, Gary gave me permission to post a video I made that is relevant to the discussion, so I'd like to share my moveset guide for Blacephalon. In the vid I go over Blacephalon's best sets and options and discuss its place in the meta (hint: Tyranitar). I'd really appreciate it if you checked it out :D

 

[Eboera]

I don't want to go too deeply into Naganadel since all the main points I wanted to talk about have basically been covered in other posts, but Naganadel basically forces one or two of a small subset of ou viable mons on every team. I've found that this tends to restrict me to very similar cores on every team, and its a pain to avoid using bulky ttar on every team rn because it just offers so much role compression. Originally I tried to just settle with getting damage on setup + priority + sand chip with CB Tar, but I was forced to switch to AV because I couldn't handle Nagandel consistently enough without having to sack a mon every time it came in, and this really hurt my ability to break bulkier teams. Naganadel is definitely quite restricting even if it isn't outright broken, and I feel it is having an unhealthy polarizing effect on the tier.

Stakataka seems quite good to me, although one of its niches rn is checking Naganadel, which will probably mean its value will decrease if naga is banned like I expect. I think full TR teams are still meh and not that much better with Staka, but I really like Staka on BO, where I feel an OTR set can be just as good or even better than CB at times, mostly because the Z-move keeps it very threatening, and also because with TR you can make better use of attack boosts since you won't be forced out as often after a kill.

Regarding Blacephalon, I'm struggling with it right now simply because AV TTar is way too common. At least with a choice specs set and appropriate coverage, Specs Blace can try to get past CB Tar with some hazards damage, but right now it just can't do anything bar wisp or trick. I'm really interested to see how the meta will shift after a potential naga ban, as Blaca's 3 main sets (Specs, Scarf, and CM Ghostium) are all quite dangerous vs teams without tyranitar.

My experience with Kommo-o in ou has been pretty lackluster so far. The biggess issue is getting off a clangorous soulblaze vs a team with a fairy type (you need +atk iron tail to have a < 50% chance to 2hko clef, for example), it's outrun by every relevant scarfer, and it quickly weakens its defenses when using moves like CC and Clanging Scales, leaving itself open to priority. I haven't really toyed with many of the new defog mons especially since I find it hard to fit on defensive lando, but in my experience playing against defog gliscor, it can be quite troublesome especially if your rocker is a defensive lando. I'm also struggling to fit knock off on mons like pex because its moveslots are all so important, although I think scarf kartana can make use of knock if Giga Impact / Aerial Ace / Defog isn't needed, especially since it can ohko blacephalon with it. I'm interested to know if anyone has tried out mega sharpedo with liquidation; the extra BP probably doesn't make a huge difference but I remember shark was quite good around the release of SM and it would be cool to see it rising again, especially since mons like Tar, SDef Tran, and SDef Pex are so common rn thanks to naga and can be taken advantage of (Mega Gyara should also be able to take advantage of these mons and would be better vs bulkier teams).

Also, Gary gave me permission to post a video I made that is relevant to the discussion, so I'd like to share my moveset guide for Blacephalon. In the vid I go over Blacephalon's best sets and options and discuss its place in the meta (hint: Tyranitar). I'd really appreciate it if you checked it out :D

On specifically the new Defogers, the ones I think people are going to talk about and that I've already seen are probably
Xatu, I mean low key this Pokemon just needed defog, magic bounce, trick, tailwind, wish, roost, trick room, haze. I've seen a cool set using feather dance, but having defog and magic bounce make it an amazing anti lead or something that just destroys tempo.

Mantine is kinda cool to have on it, it's something you see on a lot of rain teams as a SpDef support and having defog just gives it that extra tool.

Rimbobee might be something you see more of, it get's defog but probably more importantly Sticky web, but having that defog is nice also.

Serperior can run it if you wanted to run more of a slower bulky set rather than full on leafstorm sweeper, kinda the same thing with Gliscor/Gligar getting defog.

I've probably missed a couple things but I think those top 3, Mantine and Rimbobee I think we will see here and there, but Xatu is something I have strong feelings about and that if I was going to argue a single pokemon "winning" the defog game.

 

[Zukrad]

On specifically the new Defogers, the ones I think people are going to talk about and that I've already seen are probably
Xatu, I mean low key this Pokemon just needed defog, magic bounce, trick, tailwind, wish, roost, trick room, haze. I've seen a cool set using feather dance, but having defog and magic bounce make it an amazing anti lead or something that just destroys tempo.

Mantine is kinda cool to have on it, it's something you see on a lot of rain teams as a SpDef support and having defog just gives it that extra tool.

Rimbobee might be something you see more of, it get's defog but probably more importantly Sticky web, but having that defog is nice also.

Serperior can run it if you wanted to run more of a slower bulky set rather than full on leafstorm sweeper, kinda the same thing with Gliscor/Gligar getting defog.

I've probably missed a couple things but I think those top 3, specifically Xatu are the big Defog winners that i think we will see.

Mantine already had Defog so no change there.

I don't see Xatu getting relevant in OU thanks to defog. Weakeness to rock and bad bst seems to be too much of an issue for it to actually put in work. Maaaaaybe you could see it in a Mega Sableyeless stall, but I don't know if it will be even worth using in OU. Is going to get much better in lower tiers tho

Defensive slow Serperior seems like a bad idea, since it goes against its biggest niches (Strong boosting move + Good speed). However, I can see Defog being a good 4th moveslot over Giga Drain in Offensive Serperior

Ribombee is bad. I don't see any niche it could accomplis over other defoggers

Gliscor is cool. I have been using it a lot lately, EQ+Roost+Defog+Taunt/Knock seems to be the best movespread so far. Gligar is bad

 

[Kamen Galaxy]

On specifically the new Defogers, the ones I think people are going to talk about and that I've already seen are probably
Xatu, I mean low key this Pokemon just needed defog, magic bounce, trick, tailwind, wish, roost, trick room, haze. I've seen a cool set using feather dance, but having defog and magic bounce make it an amazing anti lead or something that just destroys tempo.

Mantine is kinda cool to have on it, it's something you see on a lot of rain teams as a SpDef support and having defog just gives it that extra tool.

Rimbobee might be something you see more of, it get's defog but probably more importantly Sticky web, but having that defog is nice also.

Serperior can run it if you wanted to run more of a slower bulky set rather than full on leafstorm sweeper, kinda the same thing with Gliscor/Gligar getting defog.

I've probably missed a couple things but I think those top 3, Mantine and Rimbobee I think we will see here and there, but Xatu is something I have strong feelings about and that if I was going to argue a single pokemon "winning" the defog game.

Meantime and Ribombee would probably be an ok addition to OU, but I'm not sure about the others...

 

[Eboera]

Meantime and Ribombee would probably be an ok addition to OU, but I'm not sure about the others...

For me the real reason Rimbobee probably makes a jump is Sticky Web, and unlike Smeargle base 95 Special is not to bad.
you will most likely see a set that's like, Toxic, Defog, Sticky web and U-turn
but a set that is Sticky Web, Defog, U-turn and say a Dazzling Gleam is probably viable

 

[Jordy]

I felt kind of forced to react to ur post as u seem very uninformed

On specifically the new Defogers, the ones I think people are going to talk about and that I've already seen are probably
Xatu, I mean low key this Pokemon just needed defog, magic bounce, trick, tailwind, wish, roost, trick room, haze. I've seen a cool set using feather dance, but having defog and magic bounce make it an amazing anti lead or something that just destroys tempo.

Mantine is kinda cool to have on it, it's something you see on a lot of rain teams as a SpDef support and having defog just gives it that extra tool.

Rimbobee might be something you see more of, it get's defog but probably more importantly Sticky web, but having that defog is nice also.

Serperior can run it if you wanted to run more of a slower bulky set rather than full on leafstorm sweeper, kinda the same thing with Gliscor/Gligar getting defog.

I've probably missed a couple things but I think those top 3, Mantine and Rimbobee I think we will see here and there, but Xatu is something I have strong feelings about and that if I was going to argue a single pokemon "winning" the defog game.

Xatu already has magic bounce, preventing both hazards and being taunted. This means Defog does absolutely nothing for it, the fact that its defensive stats are bad also means it will fail to check stuff properly.

Mantine alread had Defog, nothing has changed here.

Ribombee should not be ran with Defog since ur most likely gna be a suicide lead, and defogging ur own webs seems very dumb... to say the least.

Ribombee @ Focus Sash
Ability: Shield Dust
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Steel]
- Stun Spore / U-turn / Quiver Dance

This is truly the only Ribombee set that is effective i can tell u after testing it, it needs Moonblast to beat Mega Sableye which would prevent webs from going up and is generally a good and reliable stab move, Hidden Power Steel can potentially OHKO Mega Diancie which can also prevent webs from going up on the field.

Serperior should not be used as a bulky mon, however Defog can be ran as a good filler on offensive or scarf sets in the 4th slot.

For me the real reason Rimbobee probably makes a jump is Sticky Web, and unlike Smeargle base 95 Special is not to bad.
you will most likely see a set that's like, Toxic, Defog, Sticky web and U-turn
but a set that is Sticky Web, Defog, U-turn and say a Dazzling Gleam is probably viable

As i stated before Ribombee needs Moonblast and Hidden Power Steel, Defog is very counter productive since it removes ur own webs, ur not gonna be coming in to defog rocks away anyway since ur a suicide lead.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

You know, using non-OU things in OU shouldn't be a concern. If you decide to run a sub-perfect mon, then go for it. Subpar sets are just as viable as standard sets, and I guess they could be alternative ways of playing your favorite Pokemon. So, AV Ttar is fine by me.

Every post you make is a reach.

Running sub-optimal sets for the fun of it, and running sub-optimal sets because you have to are two completely different things.

AV TTar is not good, it just isn't. In literally every instance other than beating Naga it is exactly what I stated before, a meme of a set. It was a set people would bring up in the OU room and (because our community is a mixed bag of snarky people) are met with ridicule and pedantic remarks, because it is a joke of a set.

It is not a good set. It's not a sign of metagame progression. It is a sign to anyone not closing their eyes and shoving their fingers in their ears, that this thing is a broken mess.

 

[Bischler]

In a sand team, isn't a smooth rock the preferred item for the sand setter, so that you don't have to re-set sand that often? I understand the purpose of AV Ttar as a Naganadel check, but under sand, other mons like Stakataka or even Nihilego can check Naganadel too, and Sand Rush Excadrill easily revenges it, even after it gets a beast boost.

That used to be the case, but ever since gen7, smooth rock has been outclassed by every other possible Ttar set (bar scarf). CB is a better wallbreaker, AV Ttar and bulky Mega Ttar are better at supporting a team (due to checking naga, blace and others, or setting up rocks in case of mega), and DD Mega Ttar is better as a sweeper (tbf, that set was mainly used on veil, not sand, but yeah, you get the point ^^).

Sand overall is still "meh" imo. It has gotten a lot better by recent metagame trends (first the duggy ban, now the implementation of naga), but it's still a very niche comp. "Standard" BO is overall better for obvious reasons, so are most (properly built) Balances. Rain is better at punishing offense and since Stall is basically nonexistent you don't need to worry about that too much (depending on ladder range). Apart from that, if you wanna build it no matter what, the usual guidelines for sand teams still stand. Lando, Skarm (close to nonexistent even on Stall rn), fat waters, fat grasses, Steela and Lure-Latios are your biggest enemies. Plus the usual broken/close to broken stuff that every team has to prep for, like tapus, greninjas, naga, blace, HO, etc.

 

[Posho]

Every post you make is a reach.

Running sub-optimal sets for the fun of it, and running sub-optimal sets because you have to are two completely different things.

AV TTar is not good, it just isn't. In literally every instance other than beating Naga it is exactly what I stated before, a meme of a set. It was a set people would bring up in the OU room and (because our community is a mixed bag of snarky people) are met with ridicule and pedantic remarks, because it is a joke of a set.

It is not a good set. It's not a sign of metagame progression. It is a sign to anyone not closing their eyes and shoving their fingers in their ears, that this thing is a broken mess.

I believe you're overexagerating things a bit. It is true that AV Tyranitar is sort of a sub-optimal set, and its wave is basically the result of Naganadel being extremely broken. Either way, I'd like to point that it has some sort of niche, as there are many teams that really appreciate its really high special bulk, specially teams that are annoyed by Lele, Magma Tran, Zapdos and some other annoying mons that they would want to get rid of. My point is though, that even though some sets are considered inferior, they're not by any means unviable or a joke, even the stupidest of sets can offer some utility that a team can truly appreciate. So do not be afraid of trying some.

As for the new USM stuff, I've been laddering and trying out new teams and mons, and the meta itself has been fun so far. With the inclusión of a lot of random defog mons, building has been less struggling than it used to be; I used to have trouble finding optimal hazard removals for my teams, so I find it quite relieving that we were given such tool. Mons like Blacephalon and Naganadel are killing it, even Stakataka, which I thought would be trash, is quite decent; I've seen sets such as Trick Room with Z stone edge and CB, which both can be pretty threatening if supported properly. I'm quite thrilled about what the metagame is gonna develop towards in the upcoming tournaments, mainly SPL :D

 

[Dakress]

My experience with Kommo-o in ou has been pretty lackluster so far. The biggess issue is getting off a clangorous soulblaze vs a team with a fairy type (you need +atk iron tail to have a < 50% chance to 2hko clef, for example), it's outrun by every relevant scarfer, and it quickly weakens its defenses when using moves like CC and Clanging Scales, leaving itself open to priority.

Agreed. From personal experience and from what I've seen, a vanilla Z-Clangorous Soulblaze set in OU is very mediocre and not worth using. It relies mostly on a huge amount of threats like being weakened/gone to be actually effective, and being outspeed by every relevant scarfer is never a good sign. And the less said about a pure special set the better.

That doesn't mean Kommo-o's completly useless, though. In fact, the Mixed Z-Clangorous Soulblaze + Dragon Dance and a Belly Drum + Substitute + Salac Berry sets can be legitimately threatening. On one hand, being able to Dragon Dance AND throw a 190 BP nuke front of a Landorus-T is the most amusing thing ever to watch, and the fact the stat boosts get stacked lets you outspeed tons of things (you still fail to outspeed Scarfed Greninjas at +2 sadly). On the other hand, being able to set up in front of defensive mons like Ferrothorn (only if you're using Bulletproof) or just things weak to fighting like Tyranitar and Specially Defensive Heatran, just to Sub, Belly Drum and then recover all your HP with Drain Punch is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too fun of an opportunity to pass up. In fact, if you're using it on HO and you've succesfully thrown SR and Sticky Web, you've pretty much already won.

The only stuff that counters you 100% of the time is every Unaware mon ever, Unburden boosted Hawlucha and Scarfed Greninja. But then again, why even bother with Kommo-o when Naganadel is better? I was playing like a complete idiot in there and I still won somehow, so...

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Subpar sets are just as viable as standard sets

Gary, please stop me.

Let me explain why that statement isn't necessarily correct. There is a reason why it's called "SUB-Optimal" or "SUBpar".

Specific Pokemon run some sets better than other sets and other Pokemon. This thread exemplifies the best sets and ranking them by said sets, which affects their ranking in the basic Viability Thread.

Soft Examples:

Notice how Tyranitar's Choice Band set is the only ranked set in the main post (and is ranked A). The other sets, Choice Scarf and Assault Vest, are not only not as good as the Choice Band set, they are also done better by other Pokemon.
Tyranitar does NOT have the speed for Scarf. Sure in the past it was fine (Latios was huge in BW2 and it had the bonus of bonking Gengar), but this meta is wildly against it. As for Assault Vest, it has too many weaknesses to be considered; weak to being worn down over time, does nothing to aid its only "workable" Physical Defense, lacks the power from Choice Band, and also lacks the speed from Choice Scarf. These reasons (and many MANY more) are why they are not ranked and do not really affect its current ranking.

Tapu Bulu's best sets are Assault Vest and Swords Dance, ranked A, while its Choice Band set is only ranked B+. While I'm not the best person to explain Bulu (rarely use it), the general consensus seems to be that the former two sets are clearly better than the Choice Band set.

Clefable's Magic Guard set is ranked A while its Unaware set is ranked only B! Once again, the consensus is that one set is clearly better than the other.

Just bringing up three examples shown; if you look through, you'll see a couple other fine examples of some sets being better than others. This means, by definition, not all sets are equal, hence why many will name a set "SUBpar" or "SUB-Optimal".

This is without getting into the viability of Pokemon, something that has been well known since the beginning of Pokemon, so I'm not going to outline them right now.

Of course, this also opens up a long argument based around semantics on "If it stops a specific threat, does it truly make that set Sub-Optimal?" My answer is yes and the reasoning is quite simple; you're sacrificing a good part of what makes that Pokemon excellent in order to cover one specific set, which, in turn, weakens you against what that Pokemon would normally threaten/handle. A Pokemon like Naganadel makes users have to consider Assault Vest Tyranitar to check it, even though it will lose the power that draws people to it in the first place (just an example). Pokemon sacrificed Leftovers, which is very precious recovery over time for many Pokemon, just to run Shed Shell to escape from Dugtrio when Arena Trap was allowed; this unnecessarily cut into their ability to operate under normal circumstances, meaning other threats could overpower them much more easily.

tl;dr There is evidence that some sets are clearly better than others. Subpar is subpar for a reason.

brb, gonna battle homelessness and hunger. Hope everyone else can at least enjoy their Thanksgiving.

Edit: Mostly tagged Gary because somebody on the OU Council can elaborate more on the subject, as well as correct any mistakes I might've made since I'm not posting in the best state of mind.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I believe you're overexagerating things a bit. It is true that AV Tyranitar is sort of a sub-optimal set, and its wave is basically the result of Naganadel being extremely broken. Either way, I'd like to point that it has some sort of niche, as there are many teams that really appreciate its really high special bulk, specially teams that are annoyed by Lele, Magma Tran, Zapdos and some other annoying mons that they would want to get rid of. My point is though, that even though some sets are considered inferior, they're not by any means unviable or a joke, even the stupidest of sets can offer some utility that a team can truly appreciate. So do not be afraid of trying some.

As for the new USM stuff, I've been laddering and trying out new teams and mons, and the meta itself has been fun so far. With the inclusión of a lot of random defog mons, building has been less struggling than it used to be; I used to have trouble finding optimal hazard removals for my teams, so I find it quite relieving that we were given such tool. Mons like Blacephalon and Naganadel are killing it, even Stakataka, which I thought would be trash, is quite decent; I've seen sets such as Trick Room with Z stone edge and CB, which both can be pretty threatening if supported properly. I'm quite thrilled about what the metagame is gonna develop towards in the upcoming tournaments, mainly SPL :D

I'm not saying it's deadweight, but if it weren't for Naganadel, this set would not for a second be a discussion point. As I said multiple times, if not for Naganadel TTar would rather run something else 100% of the time. Of course it does what any other TTar set is capable of doing without AV, it's still TTar. The point is that AV is ran specifically for Naga, and acting like that is a good thing and some form of metagame progression is just ridiculous.

 

[Latioswars]

That ribombee set is garbage like quiver dance is suboptimal and HP steel is not worth it when moonblast 2kos diancie, if you are going to run some hidden power then it must be HP fire otherwise you are mega scizor / Ferro bait also defog is not a suboptimal option because you can defog hazards and then set up sticky web again so the last moveslot should be stun spore / defog / uturn.

 

[Posho]

I'm not saying it gives absolutely nothing, but if it weren't for Naganadel, this set would not for a second be a discussion point. As I said multiple times, if not for Naganadel TTar would rather run something else 100% of the time. Of course it does what any other TTar set is capable of doing without AV, it's still TTar. The point is that AV is ran specifically for Naga, and acting like that is a good thing and some form of metagame progression is just ridiculous.

Yea, I see your point and it's likely that AV Tar won't see the same usage if Naga happens to leave the tier. But one never knows really, usually new changes in the metagame can be key for some undiscovered/uncommon sets to arouse, and they're always a nice influence for previous and future metagames. But one thing is clear, AV Tar has kind of been a desperate measure of dealing with Naganadel, but it can be taken as a sort of metagame progression, just minimal I'd say.

 

[patlop2307]

Yea, I see your point and it's likely that AV Tar won't see the same usage if Naga happens to leave the tier. But one never knows really, usually new changes in the metagame can be key for some undiscovered/uncommon sets to arouse, and they're always a nice influence for previous and future metagames. But one thing is clear, AV Tar has kind of been a desperate measure of dealing with Naganadel, but it can be taken as a sort of metagame progression, just minimal I'd say.

I don't think AV Tar will prosper after Naga's ban at all to be honest. I don't know if its just me thinking that way, but I feel like there are way better AV options after Naga's ban than T-Tar (so AV-Tar's usage = basically 0). People will most likely either switch to the Band set or to the DD-Mega set, since both would cover more in the post-Naga metagame.
(Also, while I do think the meta is going to change a LOT, I am of the opinion that it's not going to affect T-Tar in terms of general usage.)

 

[Eboera]

I'm not saying it's deadweight, but if it weren't for Naganadel, this set would not for a second be a discussion point. As I said multiple times, if not for Naganadel TTar would rather run something else 100% of the time. Of course it does what any other TTar set is capable of doing without AV, it's still TTar. The point is that AV is ran specifically for Naga, and acting like that is a good thing and some form of metagame progression is just ridiculous.

I think in a lot of ways we are quickly seeing that the "but because Naganadel exists" is drastically warping a lot of the meta game, for good reason, the thing is stupidly powerful. And for me personally when I think about meta games there is an element of comparing every pokemon against the very tip top mons is part of it, but also i think it is important to look at each mon as an overall package and what roles does it fill and how it can be used.

The thing about this entire argument about where does AV TTar fall, on some level it doesn't really matter. TTar has the ability to be one of the strongest most versatile threats in the OU. Auto-Sandstorm is amazing, it has a move ocean, you can run it as a choice band, you can run it as a set up with stealth rocks, and yes you can run it with AV as a specific counter.
Like the argument of how good is one of it's sets compared to others and if one is more optimal kinda doesn't matter, because TTar in itself can be run in so many ways and is a Pokemon that defines the tier.

 

[Zukrad]

I think in a lot of ways we are quickly seeing that the "but because Naganadel exists" is drastically warping a lot of the meta game, for good reason, the thing is stupidly powerful. And for me personally when I think about meta games there is an element of comparing every pokemon against the very tip top mons is part of it, but also i think it is important to look at each mon as an overall package and what roles does it fill and how it can be used.

The thing about this entire argument about where does AV TTar fall, on some level it doesn't really matter. TTar has the ability to be one of the strongest most versatile threats in the OU. Auto-Sandstorm is amazing, it has a move ocean, you can run it as a choice band, you can run it as a set up with stealth rocks, and yes you can run it with AV as a specific counter.
Like the argument of how good is one of it's sets compared to others and if one is more optimal kinda doesn't matter, because TTar in itself can be run in so many ways and is a Pokemon that defines the tier.

That's... not exactly how it works...

You are FORCED to run Ttar or Heatran in this meta, doesn't matter if they are "good" or not, the fact that Naganadel's existence is so restriciting that a team lacking one of the two becomes terrible is a sign that something is really bad in the meta rn.

Naganadel is broken, so broken indeed that it forces you to run a very specific Pokémon to not lose to it. That is the problem. AV ttar being actually a good set or not (is not) is not the main issue here

 

[Kamen Galaxy]

That's... not exactly how it works...

You are FORCED to run Ttar or Heatran in this meta, doesn't matter if they are "good" or not, the fact that Naganadel's existence is so restriciting that a team lacking one of the two becomes terrible is a sign that something is really bad in the meta rn.

Naganadel is broken, so broken indeed that it forces you to run a very specific Pokémon to not lose to it. That is the problem. AV ttar being actually a good set or not (is not) is not the main issue here

Weird, for I haven't seen a single Naganadel that caused me problems. Maybe if we sit on this, and wait for the dust to settle, then a clear, nigh-airtight result should be foreseeable.

 

[Vegalius]

Weird, for I haven't seen a single Naganadel that caused me problems. Maybe if we sit on this, and wait for the dust to settle, then a clear, nigh-airtight result should be foreseeable.

YOU haven't seen a Nagandel the has caused YOU problems. I fail to believe this claim of yours. What this leads me to believe is one of the following: Either A - you legitimately do not go on the ladder / take part in rooms tours / battle online at all, B - you are have extreme luck at this point meaning you have not battled a single Naganadel, or C - you are straight up naive and ignorant.

This is not a matter in which we "wait for the dust to settle" and we'll be fine.

If there is a Pokemon within the meta for players to abuse, they'll continuously abuse it, until somehow it is removed.

 

[Kamen Galaxy]

YOU haven't seen a Nagandel the has caused YOU problems. I fail to believe this claim of yours. What this leads me to believe is one of the following: Either A - you legitimately do not go on the ladder / take part in rooms tours / battle online at all, B - you are have extreme luck at this point meaning you have not battled a single Naganadel, or C - you are straight up naive and ignorant.

This is not a matter in which we "wait for the dust to settle" and we'll be fine.

If there is a Pokemon within the meta for players to abuse, they'll continuously abuse it, until somehow it is removed.

I have only faced one Naga, and many others might have faced more than me. Why can't we wait, and get to an answer both the council and community (not just upper-ladder) find acceptable (which most likely would be to ban this sonofagun)? Don't we abuse Lando as is, or is that a different thing entirely?

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I can tell you why you don't wait on these.

The meta will conform as it did in ORAS with Megagross. The difference here is, RH chomp, hippo etc. had other uses outside of beating or checking MegaGross. AV TTar does nothing more than counter Naga. That should not become common place, it isn't healthy to force people to run one of two Pokemon that have far superior sets they would rather run in order to keep a single 'mon in the tier.

That is not healthy for what we are trying to create.

 

[MF TOMB]

aight.

i'm gonna keep it quick with the response here but naga should definitely get the boot. the level of over centralization that it brings to the tier in itself should make it worthy of a ban. people are legit running av tar which in any other scenario is not viable whatsoever. but since we have naga in the tier its used quite commonly since it's one of very few answers to naga. people who are using arguments such as "just use priority", "stop it from nasty plotting", and "just use the totally viable max special defense av claydol set" are just flat out dumb. this is a pointless argument. just wait a few more weeks and the purple dragon bee will be off of are hands for good.

 

[Kamen Galaxy]

Lando is no where compare to Naga.

Look. I know you want to be on top of this argument, and I do too, but can we please use proper English?
Anyways, having 6-7 sets, giving it a usage of 41% or higher, seems to be stretching the not-abuse-ness of Landorus Therian. Naga has almost no rating due to it not having been here a week, and yet if measured, must be close to 20% or so.

Also, you ARE forced to use mons such as AV TTar and SpDef Tran, where in regular play these mons don't hold much viability.

I'll give you that. Some may use these in normal play to great effect, but in the situation we're in, we might not have the time to get used to those sets. Being the less-than-perfect human I am, I propose that Naga has a suspect test, because it would be a quickban without quickbanning it.

 

[Analytic]

saying you are "forced" to run ttar/heatran to beat naganadel may be true to some extent, but i'd argue that these mons have been prevalent enough in this tier for a while now. why? because they have been extremely consistent and are mons that definitely do something in each game that they're used.

i have liked seeing naganadel so far. i think it has breathed life into usm and accordingly, the metagame has seen an offensive shift since it came out. we've seen a rise in stuff like mamoswine that isn't bad by any means, checking naganadel, koko, sgcm magearna is something not a lot of pokemon can claim to do. scarfgren has also become more viable than before, mlop is such a good pokemon to use rn. naga is also a tspikes absorber which is a godsend for so many teams.

im not saying naga isnt broken, perhaps it is perhaps not, however i think we should abstain on a qb / suspect till spl to see how top players deal and prepare while keeping a mon like naga in mind.

 

[Spoons of Justice]

saying you are "forced" to run ttar/heatran to beat naganadel may be true to some extent, but i'd argue that these mons have been prevalent enough in this tier for a while now. why? because they have been extremely consistent and are mons that definitely do something in each game that they're used.

i have liked seeing naganadel so far. i think it has breathed life into usm and accordingly, the metagame has seen an offensive shift since it came out. we've seen a rise in stuff like mamoswine that isn't bad by any means, checking naganadel, koko, sgcm magearna is something not a lot of pokemon can claim to do. scarfgren has also become more viable than before, mlop is such a good pokemon to use rn. naga is also a tspikes absorber which is a godsend for so many teams.

im not saying naga isnt broken, perhaps it is perhaps not, however i think we should abstain on a qb / suspect till spl to see how top players deal and prepare while keeping a mon like naga in mind.

Well, I wouldn't think the council should abstain from a QB, since it seems a majority of OU players agree that Naganadel is overpowered, and the anti-QB side has yet to provide a coherent argument about why the council should abstain.

Say what you will about "[breathing] life into usm," but the majority of OU players seem to agree that Naganadel is overpowered, and if you want the council to abstain from a QB, you should tell us why you think Naganadel is good for the meta. Yea I understand that Heatran and Tyranitar are both viable options, but the fact that Naganadel forces them onto teams 100% of the time seems to suggest poor meta development. This is also coupled with the low cost Naganadel has with using it (Mega Stone namely) – you just throw it onto a team and go.