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Anything Goes Viability Ranking
- Thread starter Funbot28
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Personally, I think in both of your arguments (the Blissey one and the Kyogre one) you're ignoring pretty big 101% counters to both 'mons in your nom: Primal Groudon and Mega Gengar. Regular Kyogre and all it's other sets provide a huge loss of momentum and a potential sweeping opportunity to every Primal Groudon ever and blablabla there isn't more to say.
Also, you're nominating it on the basis of ONE set. Just one? Doesn't a mon need to be, say, well-versed, to get a spot in B?
I don't understand why you would drop blissey and rise chansey; in an outright special walling case, blissey would probably win; losing entirely to one semi-common mon in the meta is not really good. In addition, you think blissey would be ranked in D on the basis of a very niche set (and ignoring it's main set). Said niche set provides a setup opportunity for all subbing mons and is nigh-useless if you are facing a support mon or a stall team.
edit: Yeah, I suppose Arceus is a hard check to Kyogre.
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Ive seen blissey being used before and I dont really see what it does although its a special wall its just set-up bait for a ton of mons. blissey cant touch alot of viable mons in this metagame and because this metagame has so much offense blissey is somewhat passive in AG. Chansey is just better, it always has been it walls better, its still set up bait for alot of mons mind you but it does the job overall better because of the increased bulk its that simple.
Seconding Kyogre to B
As for Kyogre I agree with him on the promotion most of the C-ranked mons are there just because they can be effective with a huge amount of support or work on one style and I don't see that in Kyogre he is sorta over shadowed (people dont give ogre too much of a chance because the advantage to an extra 100 BST provides some opportunity) by his primal form but they do different things. Not only that but it takes people really offguard. If Pdon is gone or not present on the team scarf kyogre gets a nice opportunity to sweep later in the game (assuming klefki is also weakened/gone) its really hard to stop after those two conditions have been met because scarfers are somewhat rare and Kyogre hits a really nice speed tier with scarf allowing it to outspeed most everything in the AG tier (exluding other scarfers and Deo-S).
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 175-208 (51.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It has a small amount of trouble dealing with arceus as it is a roll to kill plus focus blast is sort of a forced on move that isnt reliable but for the most part it has much more advantages than flaws and deserves a spot in B range.
EDIT:Thanks Trickster for catching my mistake lol idk how I got that ogre got focus blast. I stayed up too long studying for precalc test ;-;
Edit2: Just use origin pulse like infernapetropius said. They both do around the same damage except OPulse is stronger and doesnt miss as much :P
Seconding Kyogre to B
As for Kyogre I agree with him on the promotion most of the C-ranked mons are there just because they can be effective with a huge amount of support or work on one style and I don't see that in Kyogre he is sorta over shadowed (people dont give ogre too much of a chance because the advantage to an extra 100 BST provides some opportunity) by his primal form but they do different things. Not only that but it takes people really offguard. If Pdon is gone or not present on the team scarf kyogre gets a nice opportunity to sweep later in the game (assuming klefki is also weakened/gone) its really hard to stop after those two conditions have been met because scarfers are somewhat rare and Kyogre hits a really nice speed tier with scarf allowing it to outspeed most everything in the AG tier (exluding other scarfers and Deo-S).
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 175-208 (51.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
EDIT:Thanks Trickster for catching my mistake lol idk how I got that ogre got focus blast. I stayed up too long studying for precalc test ;-;
Edit2: Just use origin pulse like infernapetropius said. They both do around the same damage except OPulse is stronger and doesnt miss as much :P
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Unless I'm missing something, I'm pretty sure Kyogre doesn't get Focus Blast.
%GunnerRohan: !learn kyogre, focus blast
Kyogre can't learn Focus Blast
Kyogre can't learn Focus Blast
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Just wanted to point out that Origin Pulse actually does more (2.25x from STAB+Rain compared to 2x from SE):
252+ SpA Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus in Rain: 282-333 (74 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I do agree with the rest of the post however and think Kyogre fits well in B Rank.
I understand that Chansey has more bulk, but Blissey is made COMPLETELY dead weight if the opponent has a Mega Gengar. Granted, Mega Gengar is uncommon, but it's still a big risk. You also ignore the fact that Blissey can use Ice Beam and Flamethrower to damage some Pokemon that would otherwise wall it, while Chansey cannot due to its unusable special attack.
do it anyways, you cant do any worse
Mega Gengar is almost unseen nowadays in high ladder AG, and it actually does lose to scarf ogre so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I mentioned primal groudon in my nomination as well. And yes, I am nominating it on the basis of ONE set. Just one. A mon does NOT need to be well-versed to get a spot in B, that's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. Smeargle and the latis are in A- and they only have 1 viable set really. Like kyogre scarfed, they can change up some moves but they really only can run 1 set. What multiple sets do gliscor, kangashkan-mega, lando-t or espeon run? They're all in B.
Blissey would not win in an "outright special walling case", chansey has higher special defenses as well with eviolity, flat out. That argument doesn't even make sense, the numbers are literally out in the open. In what way is blissey not almost directly outclassed by chansey?
Yeah lol, focus blast is a no-no on ogre.
^ this is what I was going to say anyways.
Blissey will do almost nothing with ice beam or flamethrower to anything at all, they're almost irrelvant. I have no idea why you would even use them. Blissey has 75 Spa, that isn't going to hit anything at all that walls it uninvested or even invested, not that blissey can invest into it anyways. Link a single good team in any meta that has a blissey with flamethrower or ice beam please.
Mega Gengar is more than uncommon; I've maybe matched it once high ladder since the ladder reset, once. I'm sure other good AG players can back this up.
Tl;dr: Chansey has more bulk, is walled by the same things, and has more utility in general. There is no reason to run blissey short of a super niche focus sash countercoat set or something.
??? I mentioned Blissey and Chansey for Mega Gengar, not Kyogre?
Frankly, I only added the Ice Beam and Flamethrower because I just wanted to point out that this was a slight benefit over Chansey. Yes, I AM AWARE OF CHANSEY'S HIGHER DEFENSES, CONTRARY TO WHAT EVERY CHANSEY>BLISSEY [thinker] thinks. I think I went a little bit out of my depth in saying that Blissey>Chansey thanks for changing my opinion :[ (also are you aware of every single blissey that runs ice beam and flamethrower ALSO RUNS SEISMIC TOSS)
sry for useless post(s) guys... can delete if any of you are able to
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I'm reading all of these posts and I'm thinking,
"What the hell does Blissey have over Chansey to be 2 subranks higher?"
Some people say that it can actually beat the things that it is countered by, like Mega Gengar. No, that's bs. Who the hell puts Flamethrower and/or Ice beam on Blissey. No one. I've played over 500 games of AG, I make multiple accounts. xP And I haven't seen one Blissey or remember one Blissey which has an attacking move other than Seismic Toss.
Blissey and Chansey can't beat Mega Gengar. But vice versa! (Unless of course it brings Perish Song, but that's not as common)
Now I'm thinking, OH! Blissey can carry Shed Shell to escape MegaG. BUT IS THAT SERIOUSLY THE ONLY NICHE BLISSEY HAS OVER CHANSEY?
Chansey is so much more flipping bulkier.
When the team preview is on, and I see Chansey, I'm like Crap, that's a problem.
When I see Blissey, I laugh and don't even prepare for it.
Like honestly, Mega Gengar isn't common anymore. Like not at all, it's Perish Song set is even less common now.... Chansey should be higher or the same rank as Blissey.
Also um, Kyogre should still raise to B-/B. There's nothing making it not lmao. PrimalG is a counter but compared to the crappy rank it's in right now, what's holding it back?
"What the hell does Blissey have over Chansey to be 2 subranks higher?"
Some people say that it can actually beat the things that it is countered by, like Mega Gengar. No, that's bs. Who the hell puts Flamethrower and/or Ice beam on Blissey. No one. I've played over 500 games of AG, I make multiple accounts. xP And I haven't seen one Blissey or remember one Blissey which has an attacking move other than Seismic Toss.
Blissey and Chansey can't beat Mega Gengar. But vice versa! (Unless of course it brings Perish Song, but that's not as common)
Now I'm thinking, OH! Blissey can carry Shed Shell to escape MegaG. BUT IS THAT SERIOUSLY THE ONLY NICHE BLISSEY HAS OVER CHANSEY?
Chansey is so much more flipping bulkier.
When the team preview is on, and I see Chansey, I'm like Crap, that's a problem.
When I see Blissey, I laugh and don't even prepare for it.
Like honestly, Mega Gengar isn't common anymore. Like not at all, it's Perish Song set is even less common now.... Chansey should be higher or the same rank as Blissey.
Also um, Kyogre should still raise to B-/B. There's nothing making it not lmao. PrimalG is a counter but compared to the crappy rank it's in right now, what's holding it back?
I agree with you, but I don't like how you blatantly assume I said that Flamethrower and Ice Beam Blisseys can beat Mega Gengar or whatever crap. I never said that, I just said that Blissey is NOT made a liability by Mega Gengar.
Neither do I think that you should laugh off Blissey, as everyone in this thread basically agrees that Blissey and Chansey do the same things, it's just a case of which one is BETTER.
Can we just end this silly argument and not rank both of them?
I mean Chansey is a great special wall, but the fact of the matter is there are better special walls out there that don't get hard walled by Mega Gengar (such as Lugia and Ho-Oh). Although, they are not as bulky, they offer a much more diverse array of attacks and abilities that prevent most special attacking threats.
In fact, if I were to run Shed Shell, I would run it on a Chansey to confuse the opponent. This would involve them sending out their Mega Gengar on the Chansey expecting to trap it. I find people doing the same thing in the Balanced Hackmons metagame, using different items on Imposter Chansey just to confuse the opponent.
EDIT:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 266-316 (41.4 - 49.2%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I state again, let's not rank them both.
EDIT2:
Spin Da (Pig), even it hard countering doesn't change this. There's a place to correct someone, and that's when your correction rebuts their whole statement rather than just edits the wording. Hard-walling, hard-countering. In the end, both are what gives Chansey a disadvantage in this area. A word change won't make a difference to my point.
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not hard walled, HARD COUNTERED; one of the main reasons why this "silly argument" started in the first place.
I suppose everyone's treating me like an idiot again. Please stop.
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Did you, or didn't you, actually read the post? In case you don't realise, "end this silly argument" means "end this silly argument". There are better, more versatle walls out there-Chansey just doesn't cut the cheese.
Alright, here with some more recommendations.
Yveltal for A+
Yveltal currently stands in the meta as one of the most sure-fire counters for any physical sweeper. It can safely, with 252 HP 252 Def Foul Play, revenge kill:
+2 Attack Arceus any physical form but Fairy
+2 Attack Groudon-Primal
+2 Attack Ho-Oh
+2 Attack Any physical pokemon that doesn't resist Foul Play and doesn't carry a super-effective move that can out-speed Yveltal.
You get the point. This isn't to say that Yveltal is a super-pokemon, but that it can safely put a stop to nearly any physical sweep instantaneously. That is definite A+ material.
Rayquaza for C
With the presence of Rayquaza-Mega in the meta, normal Rayquaza can play mind games with your opponent. With effective hazards set up e.g. Stealth Rock, coming in with Rayquaza-Normal will, 95% of the time, cause a heart-attack on the other end, with immediate switching to your opponent's Rayquaza-Mega counter. This isn't to say that Rayquaza by itself isn't a considerable threat. While keeping the mega slot open, it can boost itself with a Dragon Dance and attempt to sweep by itself.
Well, that's it. I'm not sure what's going on with my previous recommendations, but if they're still being considered, I still support the demotion of Kangaskhan Mega and the promotion of Zekrom, I believe that Deoxys-Attack can stay where it is.
Yveltal for A+
Yveltal currently stands in the meta as one of the most sure-fire counters for any physical sweeper. It can safely, with 252 HP 252 Def Foul Play, revenge kill:
+2 Attack Arceus any physical form but Fairy
+2 Attack Groudon-Primal
+2 Attack Ho-Oh
+2 Attack Any physical pokemon that doesn't resist Foul Play and doesn't carry a super-effective move that can out-speed Yveltal.
You get the point. This isn't to say that Yveltal is a super-pokemon, but that it can safely put a stop to nearly any physical sweep instantaneously. That is definite A+ material.
Rayquaza for C
With the presence of Rayquaza-Mega in the meta, normal Rayquaza can play mind games with your opponent. With effective hazards set up e.g. Stealth Rock, coming in with Rayquaza-Normal will, 95% of the time, cause a heart-attack on the other end, with immediate switching to your opponent's Rayquaza-Mega counter. This isn't to say that Rayquaza by itself isn't a considerable threat. While keeping the mega slot open, it can boost itself with a Dragon Dance and attempt to sweep by itself.
Well, that's it. I'm not sure what's going on with my previous recommendations, but if they're still being considered, I still support the demotion of Kangaskhan Mega and the promotion of Zekrom, I believe that Deoxys-Attack can stay where it is.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Gonna give my opinion on some discussion going on:
Yveltal to A+:
Can't really see this happening, due to the fact that there are Fairies like Arceus, Klefki and Xerneas that put a stop to it. It is a nice check to offensive behemoths like Ekiller and Double Dance P-Don, but they tend to run coverage like Stone Edge to deal with it.
Deoxys-Attack to A-:
Unlike others, I could see this rising. Yes, we know it's frail like a feather, but it's offensive pressure is matched by none. It is one of the best revenge killers around with E-Speed and it's amazing coverage coupled with it's blistering speed. Honestly see this going to A-.
Kyogre to B:
I could see this happening, especially the scarf set that really scares stall teams and bulky balanced teams. I'm just wary about since there is the existence of P-Don and Mega Ray, that can both switch in on Ogre pretty well. Also, P-Ogre slightly outclasses it, as it can deal with P-Don. Still, I think a rise is warranting for Ogre.
Mega Kanghaskhan to B-:
Ya, I think when I made the initial listings, I slightly overrated Mega Khan. It is almost completely outclassed by better megas like Ray and Diancie. It's walled by WoW Arceus, Giratina-O, Mega Sableye and Lugia. I think it's time that it moves down.
Zekrom to B:
Zekrom is pretty cool right now tbh. Since Ho-Oh balanced teams are quite common, Zekrom could potentially rise. P-Don really limits it going out of B, but it still is a powerful hitter that gives momentum with Volt Switch.
Rayquaza to C:
Eghhh... I mean it is severely outclassed by it's mega, but at least it can be used on a team with another mega like Diancie or Gengar. Would like more discussion, but I am leaning towards it rising so yeah.
Really don't want to start getting into Blissey vs Chansey debate again. I feel that Chansey is where it belongs even though Mega Gar is not as popular as before.
Can't really see this happening, due to the fact that there are Fairies like Arceus, Klefki and Xerneas that put a stop to it. It is a nice check to offensive behemoths like Ekiller and Double Dance P-Don, but they tend to run coverage like Stone Edge to deal with it.
Unlike others, I could see this rising. Yes, we know it's frail like a feather, but it's offensive pressure is matched by none. It is one of the best revenge killers around with E-Speed and it's amazing coverage coupled with it's blistering speed. Honestly see this going to A-.
I could see this happening, especially the scarf set that really scares stall teams and bulky balanced teams. I'm just wary about since there is the existence of P-Don and Mega Ray, that can both switch in on Ogre pretty well. Also, P-Ogre slightly outclasses it, as it can deal with P-Don. Still, I think a rise is warranting for Ogre.
Ya, I think when I made the initial listings, I slightly overrated Mega Khan. It is almost completely outclassed by better megas like Ray and Diancie. It's walled by WoW Arceus, Giratina-O, Mega Sableye and Lugia. I think it's time that it moves down.
Zekrom is pretty cool right now tbh. Since Ho-Oh balanced teams are quite common, Zekrom could potentially rise. P-Don really limits it going out of B, but it still is a powerful hitter that gives momentum with Volt Switch.
Eghhh... I mean it is severely outclassed by it's mega, but at least it can be used on a team with another mega like Diancie or Gengar. Would like more discussion, but I am leaning towards it rising so yeah.
Really don't want to start getting into Blissey vs Chansey debate again. I feel that Chansey is where it belongs even though Mega Gar is not as popular as before.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
My thoughts
Yveltal should go up. Yes it's walled by Fairy-types, but it checks so much of the physical meta, including offensive Arceus variants (such as Normal, Ghost, Ground, Poison, Steel), Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Rayquaza, all of which are prevalent, especially higher ladder. It can also drop a Toxic on most mons, such as Giratina, Lati@s, Lugia, or Kyogre if you predict a switch, before going to your counter.
Deoxys-Attack I can see moving up also. It has excellent speed (outspeeding speedsters like Darkrai, Mewtwo and both of its Megas, Arceus, and Mega Rayquaza) and awesome dual attacking stats. One of the best checks to ScarfOgre (needs Sash though) and can outspeed the Extreme Speeds of Arceus and Mega Rayquaza (unboosted). I've used it, and it's great.
Kyogre yes this is literally S+++ rank material, cteams all of my teams... In all seriousness it's a great mon, and Scarf is really handy for outspeeding stuff like non-ESpeed Arceus formes, unboosted Xerneas, it's Primal forme, Darkrai, Mega Mewtwo Y, etc. and then bopping them with a powerful Water Spout. Has good coverage, and can even fish for a Sheer Cold hit on Primal Groudon (my PDon has fallen to that many times ;~;)
MegaKhan Agree, not really that good, especially compared to the other viable Megas in the tier. Also walled by Yveltal.
Zekrom haven't seen this very often, but its a good Kyogre counter and pretty powerful wallbreaker. It can move up to B
Rayquza Not really sure about this, it's Mega just seems a lot better :/ I suppose it lets you run Mega Diancie or Mega Mewtwo Y as well, but I'm not sure that's good enough for a raise. C is still pretty low though so I'm alright with this.
Yveltal should go up. Yes it's walled by Fairy-types, but it checks so much of the physical meta, including offensive Arceus variants (such as Normal, Ghost, Ground, Poison, Steel), Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Rayquaza, all of which are prevalent, especially higher ladder. It can also drop a Toxic on most mons, such as Giratina, Lati@s, Lugia, or Kyogre if you predict a switch, before going to your counter.
Deoxys-Attack I can see moving up also. It has excellent speed (outspeeding speedsters like Darkrai, Mewtwo and both of its Megas, Arceus, and Mega Rayquaza) and awesome dual attacking stats. One of the best checks to ScarfOgre (needs Sash though) and can outspeed the Extreme Speeds of Arceus and Mega Rayquaza (unboosted). I've used it, and it's great.
Kyogre yes this is literally S+++ rank material, cteams all of my teams... In all seriousness it's a great mon, and Scarf is really handy for outspeeding stuff like non-ESpeed Arceus formes, unboosted Xerneas, it's Primal forme, Darkrai, Mega Mewtwo Y, etc. and then bopping them with a powerful Water Spout. Has good coverage, and can even fish for a Sheer Cold hit on Primal Groudon (my PDon has fallen to that many times ;~;)
MegaKhan Agree, not really that good, especially compared to the other viable Megas in the tier. Also walled by Yveltal.
Zekrom haven't seen this very often, but its a good Kyogre counter and pretty powerful wallbreaker. It can move up to B
Rayquza Not really sure about this, it's Mega just seems a lot better :/ I suppose it lets you run Mega Diancie or Mega Mewtwo Y as well, but I'm not sure that's good enough for a raise. C is still pretty low though so I'm alright with this.
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Zekrom in Heavy Rain: 210-248 (61.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Zekrom: 306-362 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Zekrom is a good check still though!
As for Deoxys-A, it's really no biggie that you can hit them with E-Speed first, considering that both of them are bulky enough to take any attack from Deo-A (in the case of Mega Ray it's OHKO'd by Ice Beammore than half the time) and both can setup on an predicted E-Speed.
Im sorry for wasting ppl's time on the Kyogre thing. also PLEASE STOP TREATING ME LIKE AN IDIOT, I GET IT >_< TheHungrySage, I was just CORRECTING Zangooser.
OK, I am going to make a nom. This seems a little bit radical, but I think Mega Salamence should move up a notch. I know it's severely outclassed by Mega Ray and has gigantic opportunity cost considering all the great Megas, but the defensive and defensive setup sets are really bulky with Intimidate and can setup on many things that it checks e.g. P-don and Arceus (for reference it takes 40% max from offensive P-don's Stone Edge!). In addition, one more reason is that Mega Salamence is a better 'mon compared to a similarly ranked mon, Landorus-T. It has better physical bulk with Intimidate, has recovery, and can abuse its setup abilities.
edit: thanks hungrysage!! also wanted to say that bulky sets are probably mega mence's main niche due to mray.
edit 2: too lazy to reason much but arceus-fairy should drop, checked by primals, ho-oh, steels. outclassed by xerneas and other (superior) arceus formes to some extent. really, its best niche is being a fairy defogger.
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Lol, I'm sorry for treating you like an idiot, I didn't mean it like that, I was just in a bad mood.
I support MegaMence moving up, for the reasons listed previously. It is severely outclassed by MegaRay, but its current rank still doesn't represent how versatile it really is, especially as it can also play bulkier sets.
Numel runs Own Tempo in AG, not Oblivious. It's basically the ultimate klefki check (immune to swagger & t wave), but has no other niche in AG.
HP water to check Numel? Lol, why run a move to counter one mon that is completely worthless?
HP water is often used by full Klefki teams to stop Numel, otherwise it's definitely a waste of a moveslot. I can see why one would use HP water on a Klefki, because they'll be seeing a lot of Numels at where they are on the ladder.
Numel's niche isn't Oblivious... it's Simple. With StockPile, after 3 Stockpiles it reaches 4x on both defenses and combined with Eviolite, it's super bulky.
Though, it still sucks cuz it is really difficult to set up so many in the first place and even then, we have Whirlwind and Roar. And Kyogre and even PrimalG. Numel is bad. And then there's Own Tempo... which is Klefki check.. but still terrible.
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