BH Balanced Hackmons

If you do support it well, Kyu-w can work well under Hail. The team that I used it on is a gimmick team, but sometimes it can pull out some impressive wins. Any ways to make it better would be appreciated, as it's fun to play, but I would never risk using it in a high level tour.

Groudon-Primal @ Groundium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Shore Up
- Spectral Thief
- Precipice Blades
- U-turn

Tyranitar-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Pursuit
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Slack Off

Kyurem-White @ Choice Specs
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Blue Flare
- Rapid Spin
- Leaf Storm

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Skill Swap
- Metal Burst
- Shore Up

Shedinja @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 49
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Ice Shard
- Endeavor
- Hail
- Baton Pass

Lucario-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gear Grind
- High Jump Kick
- Bolt Strike
- Diamond Storm


The goal of the team is to use Sturdy Shedinja as a pivot to bring in one of the Slush Rush users. Between them, Kyu-w and Lucario can deal with almost every wall as long as their moves actually hit the foe, which is one of the biggest flaws for this team. The defensive core is designed to handle the threats that would kill Shedinja. That's why I have Misty Surge Chansey, to beat status and weaken Core Enforcer, and double rapid spin support, since Kyurem-w under hail forces out spinblockers. Groudon-p with a z crystal serves as a knock off absorber and also steal stat boosts from MMX if it predicts the Shell Smash (it cannot survive a Stored Power, from the stored power/sunsteel/closecombat/smash set, so those sets are auto-losses if I mispredict). Some of the moves are filler though, like the Skill Swap on Chansey

About the offensive mons, the team is really fun to play, and no one expects double Slush Rush so they often leave n in their faster mons to be KOed. Kyu-w's set is self-explanatory with Leaf Storm hitting hard against Primal Kyogre and forcing it out. It unfortunately cannot remove the Assault Vest variants, but Lucario can, so once I realize that it's AV, I'm still okay. Blue Flare nails Steels, and with the specs boost, severely cripples any who don't have Assault Vest along with the hail damage. Lucario runs Gear Grind mainly to get rid of Mega Audino, and so that Sturdy Shedinja can imposterproof it. Diamond Storm is a nasty surprise for ho-Oh, and Bolt Strike hits non Fur Coat Kyogre.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Rayquaza @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden or Illusion
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Dragon Ascent
- Dragon Hammer
- Thousand Arrows / Extreme Speed

Using an Imposter proof set to the max... I mean to the Mega!

Unburden : Immediately boost, heal, and double your speed. Then on the following turn, after Unburden activates, keep unburden as you Mega Evolve and sweep.

1K Arrows handles Steels and has perfect neutral coverage with Dragon Hammer and Dragon Ascent. Imposter cannot match speed due to no consumable item.

Also, Delta Stream is like a permanent Multiscale for Ice, and Rock moves, allowing it to get a useful ability to replace a 1x use ability (Unburden wears off after you switch out, unless you use Recycle or are Tricked, etc. an item). Delta Stream let's it make use of Sitrus Berry's 25% heal.

Illusion: Usually feigning Shedinja does the Trick, forcing a switch as you Belly Drum and Mega Evolve on the switch to keep the Illusion block on Imposter and gain a great Defensive Ability, while maxing out your offense.

Since you cannot be Impostered, you can use Extreme Speed over Thousand Arrows since you won't need Dragon Hammer to KO Eviolite Chansey, as Dragon Ascent becomes the primary move. Further, Extreme Speed let's it handle opposing priority users like Kyurem-B/W, etc.

Yes, Steels resist all 3 moves, but Belly Drum turns a resist into Super Effective (1/2% X 400 % = 200 %).
 
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RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Rayquaza @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden or Illusion
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Dragon Ascent
- Dragon Hammer
- Thousand Arrows / Extreme Speed

Using an Imposter proof set to the max... I mean to the Mega!

Unburden : Immediately boost, heal, and double your speed. Then on the following turn, after Unburden activates, keep unburden as you Mega Evolve and sweep.

1K Arrows handles Steels and has perfect neutral coverage with Dragon Hammer and Dragon Ascent. Imposter cannot match speed due to no consumable item.

Also, Delta Stream is like a permanent Multiscale for Ice, and Rock moves, allowing it to get a useful ability to replace a 1x use ability (Unburden wears off after you switch out, unless you use Recycle or are Tricked, etc. an item). Delta Stream let's it make use of Sitrus Berry's 25% heal.

Illusion: Usually feigning Shedinja does the Trick, forcing a switch as you Belly Drum and Mega Evolve on the switch to keep the Illusion block on Imposter and gain a great Defensive Ability, while maxing out your offense.

Since you cannot be Impostered, you can use Extreme Speed over Thousand Arrows since you won't need Dragon Hammer to KO Eviolite Chansey, as Dragon Ascent becomes the primary move. Further, Extreme Speed let's it handle opposing priority users like Kyurem-B/W, etc.

Yes, Steels resist all 3 moves, but Belly Drum turns a resist into Super Effective (1/2% X 400 % = 200 %).
This looks like interesting standard Unburden Belly Drum set, except how its sweeping is unfortunately cut short by Extreme Speed from pixilate / refrigerate user.
 
Rayquaza @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden or Illusion
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Dragon Ascent
- Dragon Hammer
- Thousand Arrows / Extreme Speed

Using an Imposter proof set to the max... I mean to the Mega!

Unburden : Immediately boost, heal, and double your speed. Then on the following turn, after Unburden activates, keep unburden as you Mega Evolve and sweep.

1K Arrows handles Steels and has perfect neutral coverage with Dragon Hammer and Dragon Ascent. Imposter cannot match speed due to no consumable item.

Also, Delta Stream is like a permanent Multiscale for Ice, and Rock moves, allowing it to get a useful ability to replace a 1x use ability (Unburden wears off after you switch out, unless you use Recycle or are Tricked, etc. an item). Delta Stream let's it make use of Sitrus Berry's 25% heal.

Illusion: Usually feigning Shedinja does the Trick, forcing a switch as you Belly Drum and Mega Evolve on the switch to keep the Illusion block on Imposter and gain a great Defensive Ability, while maxing out your offense.

Since you cannot be Impostered, you can use Extreme Speed over Thousand Arrows since you won't need Dragon Hammer to KO Eviolite Chansey, as Dragon Ascent becomes the primary move. Further, Extreme Speed let's it handle opposing priority users like Kyurem-B/W, etc.

Yes, Steels resist all 3 moves, but Belly Drum turns a resist into Super Effective (1/2% X 400 % = 200 %).
You can't run Extreme Speed on a set like that. The whole point of the set is to be imposterproof after you set up but with Extreme Speed this happens:
+6 252 Atk Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza: 328-386 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bare in mind that you're at 75% health max after you drum.
With illusion it's not so bad but you still want coverage to do meaningful damage.

On a side note you don't even OHKO Fur Coat Zygarde with your +6 2× effective STAB move (this remains true even if you mega evolve to boost attack). Why is Zygarde so fat?

P.S. you're probably better off with Adamant since it lets you get kills on Registeel with Dragon Ascent after rocks or something and guarantees the OHKO on Fur Coat Giratina.
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
You can't run Extreme Speed on a set like that. The whole point of the set is to be imposterproof after you set up but with Extreme Speed this happens:
+6 252 Atk Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza: 328-386 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bare in mind that you're at 75% health max after you drum.
With illusion it's not so bad but you still want coverage to do meaningful damage.

On a side note you don't even OHKO Fur Coat Zygarde with your +6 2× effective STAB move (this remains true even if you mega evolve to boost attack). Why is Zygarde so fat?

P.S. you're probably better off with Adamant since it lets you get kills on Registeel with Dragon Ascent after rocks or something and guarantees the OHKO on Fur Coat Giratina.
I guess I wasn't completely clear... you are to use Extreme Speed with Illusion, not with Unburden...

I specifically said in the Illusion explanation: "Since you cannot be Impostered, you can use Extreme Speed over Thousand Arrows since you won't need Dragon Hammer to KO Eviolite Chansey, as Dragon Ascent becomes the primary move. Further, Extreme Speed let's it handle opposing priority users like Kyurem-B/W, etc."
Meaning only use Extreme Speed on Illusion, not on Unburden. In fact, in the Unburden section I only mention 1K Arrows...

1K = Unburden or Illusion
Extreme Speed = Illusion only
This looks like interesting standard Unburden Belly Drum set, except how its sweeping is unfortunately cut short by Extreme Speed from pixilate / refrigerate user.
I specifically said not by Kurem-B/W, I guess I could have put the damage calculator earlier, but since you wrongly assumed I overestimated a 1HKO, here is proof.
+6 252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-Black: 351-414 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-White: 377-444 (83 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 218-257 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And then next turn Rayquaza outspeeds for the KO

Yes this assumes no stealth rock on my side of the field and stealth rock on theirs because I use Illusion they land a KO and then I send in Rayquaza feigning shedinja: if I have a hazards clearer so it removes stealth rocks then it isn't obvious that an Illusion user was able to switch in, otherwise if stealth rock is on the field then it would give away I use Illusion

So no stealth rocks on my field is part of my game plan for Rayquaza, which allows me to assume Ray-Mega KOs Kyurem-Black, as Strong winds weakens Ice moves including Fake-Out.
 
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RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
I guess I wasn't completely clear... you are to use Extreme Speed with Illusion, not with Unburden...

+6 252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-Black: 351-414 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-White: 377-444 (83 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Kyurem family ain't the only -ate priority user:

+6 252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Diancie-Mega: 183-215 (60.1 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Diancie is way above both Kyurem's in usage, viability, and typing.

252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 218-257 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
upload_2017-9-30_11-28-48.png
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Illusion works, afterall Extreme Speed is for the Illusion user anyways, so my point on Kyurem-B/W still stands.

NOT the first turn of the battle, but first turn of the strategy-

Turn 1: Belly Drum as they switch in something that can KO Shedinja, but see as they do they see Strong Winds and a Mega Evolution happen and know it's Mega-Ray.

Turn 2: You KO that target and they send Kyurem -B (get hit by stealth Rocks) thinking they can fake out + Extreme speed you for the KO

Turn 2: They Fake Out as you take hit

Turn 3: 100% 1HKO them thanks to Stealth Rocks with Extreme Speed
----
This looks like interesting standard Unburden Belly Drum set, except how its sweeping is unfortunately cut short by Extreme Speed from pixilate / refrigerate user.
Kyurem gets disproven as a counter... then you reply
Kyurem family ain't the only -ate priority user:

+6 252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Diancie-Mega: 183-215 (60.1 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Diancie is way above both Kyurem's in usage, viability, and typing
Lol, why bring up refridgerate at all then if you immediately say it doesn't have as much viability as Diancie-Mega?

Yes, Kyurem is not the only user of -Ate, AND Diancie-Mega is not the only Pixelate user:
+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 399-470 (87.5 - 103%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Pixilate Xerneas Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 179-213 (43.2 - 51.4%) -- 7.8% chance to 2HKO

Same fate as Kyurem, Raquaza outspeeds for the KO next turn, and survives thanks to Sitrus Berry's heal after Belly Drum.

Point is, Rayquaza now makes its would be counters (Kyurem and Xerneus) easy KOs. This set uses Delta Stream to reduce ice attacks to handle Kyurem, it is Imposter proof, has priority but it still naturally fast, and has maxed out its own Attack... It's not a bad set, so I won't pretend it is.
-----
As for Diancie-Mega:
+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Diancie-Mega: 181-213 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Pixilate Diancie-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rayquaza lives

The total way for Diancie to KO Rayquaza ends up, some of the time as a double KO:
Diancie comes in on Stealth Rock and takes 12.5% damage, then it takes 10% from Life Orb after Fake Out, then if it takes 67.5% or more damage (25% of the time) from Rayquaza's Extreme Speed, followed by 10% from its Life Orb on its own Extreme Speed (going second) it KOs itself.

67.5% + 12.5% = 80% + 20% = 100% damage on Diancie. Rayquaza can end up with a double knock out.
 
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morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Illusion works, afterall Extreme Speed is for the Illusion user anyways, so my point on Kyurem-B/W still stands.

NOT the first turn of the battle, but first turn of the strategy-

Turn 1: Belly Drum as they switch in something that can KO Shedinja, but see as they do they see Strong Winds and a Mega Evolution happen and know it's Mega-Ray.

Turn 2: You KO that target and they send Kyurem -B (get hit by stealth Rocks) thinking they can fake out + Extreme speed you for the KO

Turn 2: They Fake Out as you take hit

Turn 3: 100% 1HKO them thanks to Stealth Rocks with Extreme Speed
----

Kyurem gets disproven as a counter... then you reply

Lol, why bring up refridgerate at all then if you immediately say it doesn't have as much viability as Diancie-Mega?

Yes, Kyurem is not the only user of -Ate, AND Diancie-Mega is not the only Pixelate user:
+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 399-470 (87.5 - 103%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Pixilate Xerneas Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 179-213 (43.2 - 51.4%) -- 7.8% chance to 2HKO

Same fate as Kyurem, Raquaza outspeeds for the KO next turn, and survives thanks to Sitrus Berry's heal after Belly Drum.

Point is, Rayquaza now makes its would be counters (Kyurem and Xerneus) easy KOs. This set uses Delta Stream to reduce ice attacks to handle Kyurem, it is Imposter proof, has priority but it still naturally fast, and has maxed out its own Attack... It's not a bad set, so I won't pretend it is.
-----
As for Diancie-Mega:
+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Diancie-Mega: 181-213 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Pixilate Diancie-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rayquaza lives

The total way for Diancie to KO Rayquaza ends up, some of the time as a double KO:
Diancie comes in on Stealth Rock and takes 12.5% damage, then it takes 10% from Life Orb after Fake Out, then if it takes 67.5% or more damage (25% of the time) from Rayquaza's Extreme Speed, followed by 10% from its Life Orb on its own Extreme Speed (going second) it KOs itself.

67.5% + 12.5% = 80% + 20% = 100% damage on Diancie. Rayquaza can end up with a double knock out.
The calc on Mega Diancie is there to show it can fakespeed the ray for the KO as it survives the Espeed and can Espeed right back after Fake Out... which also doesn't require LO as fakespeed on Pixie Plate should be able to do the job as well
 

anaconja

long day at job
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Rayquaza @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden or Illusion
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Dragon Ascent
- Dragon Hammer
- Thousand Arrows / Extreme Speed

Using an Imposter proof set to the max... I mean to the Mega!

Unburden : Immediately boost, heal, and double your speed. Then on the following turn, after Unburden activates, keep unburden as you Mega Evolve and sweep.

1K Arrows handles Steels and has perfect neutral coverage with Dragon Hammer and Dragon Ascent. Imposter cannot match speed due to no consumable item.

Also, Delta Stream is like a permanent Multiscale for Ice, and Rock moves, allowing it to get a useful ability to replace a 1x use ability (Unburden wears off after you switch out, unless you use Recycle or are Tricked, etc. an item). Delta Stream let's it make use of Sitrus Berry's 25% heal.

Illusion: Usually feigning Shedinja does the Trick, forcing a switch as you Belly Drum and Mega Evolve on the switch to keep the Illusion block on Imposter and gain a great Defensive Ability, while maxing out your offense.

Since you cannot be Impostered, you can use Extreme Speed over Thousand Arrows since you won't need Dragon Hammer to KO Eviolite Chansey, as Dragon Ascent becomes the primary move. Further, Extreme Speed let's it handle opposing priority users like Kyurem-B/W, etc.

Yes, Steels resist all 3 moves, but Belly Drum turns a resist into Super Effective (1/2% X 400 % = 200 %).
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Zygarde-Complete: 236-282 (37.1 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Zygarde-Complete Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 204-240 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

+6 252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 120-141 (32.9 - 38.7%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
(Registeel uses Haze)

252 Atk Pixilate Diancie-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 146-174 (35.2 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Diancie-Mega: 183-215 (60.1 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 290-344 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 552-649 (133.3 - 156.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(no extreme speed)

(Gengar-Mega uses Entrainment)
Normalize Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. Gengar-Mega: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Unaware Gyarados-Mega: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 352-415 (85 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Yveltal: 186-220 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252 Atk Yveltal Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 311-367 (75.1 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Celesteela: 89-105 (22.3 - 26.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Atk Celesteela Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 260-306 (62.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(just what i use, not commonly seen)

+6 252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 792-932 (112.5 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Chansey Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 1188-1398 (286.9 - 337.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(keep in mind, this is a 50/50)
 
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I think this Ray set does not work,
as far as i understand Ray mega evolves on use of Dragon Ascent, so

1.) Imposter might break your Illusion with Fake out.
2.) Something faster with an Ice move might KO before your ability changes.
3.) You have to use Dragon Ascent even with better alternative moves.
4.) Once forced out Strong Winds is a weak ability.

I have seen Shed using Regenerator M-Ray yesterday, M-Ray is almost as flexible as P-Don.
The main thing M-Ray always had is its sheer unpredictability, running a normal Ray pretty much gives away the set.
You can always run Contrary Judgement if you afraid of Imposter.


edit; Good calculator above.
 
As the guy writing the Kyu-B analysis, the calculations aren't quite correct. Kyu-B's preferred item is Icicle Plate, followed by Safety Goggles and then Life Orb. So, the majority of the time, there is no LO recoil.

First, Ray's best move that it can survive long enough to pull off.

+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-Black: 386-455 (85 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Second, itemless calcs for a place to start. Keep in mind that the current standard Kyu-B set (which, admittedly might change depending on how the suspect goes and if Fur Coat remains as common after) runs either Naughty or Naive natures. Keep in mind, Kyu-B only needs to hit 75% for a KO or 50% if Ray was forced to switch into Stealth Rock, (Yes, I know you have anti-hazards OM, but you're not guaranteed to avoid them every match, so its important to keep them in mind), managed to lose its item through something like Trick, or has taken 25% chip damage before attempting to sweep.

252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 332-392 (80.1 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 168-198 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


252 Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 306-360 (73.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 152-182 (36.7 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

A healthy Kyu-B wins this match-up if it does not have to switch into hazards 95.7% of the time if Naughty and a little less if Naive. Clicking Fake Out in this instance is a literal waste of PP. If it switches into one layer of Spikes or T.Spikes, its win rate drops to 18.7%, but, in the case of T.Spikes, it must skip Fake Out to KO Ray. Stealth Rock is 100% win rate for Ray, unless, ironically, Psychic Terrain is up. It usually will not be if someone if both sides are using Extreme Speeders, but its worth noting because some teams do carry both priority and Psychic Surge.

Finally, calcs with items

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 398-470 (96.1 - 113.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 204-240 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO


252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 432-510 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 218-257 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



252 Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 362-428 (87.4 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 186-218 (44.9 - 52.6%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO


252 Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 398-468 (96.1 - 113%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 198-237 (47.8 - 57.2%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO


Really, the only things that change is Naive Kyu-B shares Naughty Kyu-B's win rate if it skips Fake Out with either item, Life Orb is actively bad because the chip damage increases Ray's odds of winning significantly (not sure on the specific odds, too lazy to do the actual math to figure it out) if Kyu-B goes for Fake Out first, and, if Ray has switched into hazards or other caveats mentioned above for 50% HP, Kyu-B stands a good chance to win with just Fake Out at no risk to itself, with Icicle Naive having the lowest odds here. Otherwise, itemless results apply.


These calcs should cover all instances of this set vs standard Refrigerate Kyu-B. Many teams have their own variations to suit their needs, so these numbers may frequently not apply perfectly in the field. Also, the standard may change in the coming weeks, so no promises these results will remain reliable.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.

If you have any bright / better ideas about this poor dragon, please feel free to post it. Thanks.
Because of my passionate love towards Giratina-O, I squeezed my brain and theorymon'd this set (played couple ladder games but didn't have a chance to shine so far due to rest of my team being too good):


Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash / Modest Nature
- Transform
- Spectral Thief / Moongeist Beam
- Core Enforcer
- Draco Meteor

I hear you all saying "wtf is this" or "nice Audino fodder" from all the way up there but hear me out.


This set has (so-called) niche for couple reasons:

1) Transform is used to keep Giratina-O from being completely passive to Audino or rare Fur Coat Chansey because it will spam recover and get out. Thanks to Griseous Orb, it gives 0 shit to Knock Off after transforming, and similar stuff can be done against Gyarados, Registeel, or some Zygarde-C variants and makes the team really strong against the long run against defensive teams.
For those who need clarification of the reason why I chose Transform over things like Shore Up, Transform keeps Imposter-ed Chansey from Transforming again due to it already having transformed, thus it won't be able to recover. If I have Shore Up on Giratina, Imposter will switch in and spam recover and eventually PP stall my team.

Thanks Silver_Lucario42 for posting Transform strategy on the other day in C&U sets thread

2) Now, try to come up with an attacker that can break Sogaleo, Giratina, Zygarde-C without coverage moves like V-create or relying on choice items. Just like how I was testing non-Choice Band Kartana for versatility and having better matchup against teams with Prote-sque moves, Giratina can handle the aforementioned three primary walls while switching moves and being able to sometimes recover using Transform. Calculations will show some stuff below.

3) The most offensive spinblocker by far (if this set turns out to have sufficient viability) that is bulky while being offensive to force out common spinners like Solgaleo. Maybe this allows HO team to merge Rayquaza's offense + Giratina's spinblocking capabilities into a single team slot?


Others:

1) Imposterproof with your Audino because Imposter-ed Giratina-O can do exactly 0 thing. Of course it can't recover because it can't Transform twice.

2) Spectral Thief lets Giratina-O to effectively threaten Solgaleo (has significantly more pp than Moongeist Beam) while letting it function as an emergency answer to physical Contrary user and etc, after you steal boosts and Imposter switches in out of greed, switch into your Audino. Moongeist Beam lets Giratina-O be an effective answer to Shedinja if the rest of your team does awful job dealing with it.

3) Stalling opposing Audino is easy but removing it is hard; this forces the user to get some lures like Illusion Kartana or just an offensive pressure which is quite hard to execute on a team with Giratina-O. Imo probably this is the greatest drawback that comes from using this set.

4) Core Enforcer and Draco Meteor might seem redundant but Core Enforcer keeps Giratina-O from being dead weight against AV regen Gyarados and Yveltal while providing general team support by nullifying abilities on switch-in. Draco Meteor finishes other Dragon's from full which would otherwise live a hit and hit back with Core Enforcer which will suck.


Calculations:

vs.

252 Atk Griseous Orb Adaptability Giratina-Origin Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 340-400 (71.1 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Adaptability Giratina-Origin Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 284-336 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


vs.

252 Atk Griseous Orb Adaptability Giratina-Origin Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 284-336 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Adaptability Giratina-Origin Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 380-448 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Adaptability Giratina-Origin Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 380-448 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (6.3% to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Adaptability Giratina-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 492-580 (97.6 - 115%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)


vs.

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Adaptability Giratina-Origin Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 444-524 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Adaptability Giratina-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 576-680 (90.5 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (75% to OHKO after Stealth Rock)


vs.
(Imposter on switch-in)
When your Giratina-O is Modest:
upload_2017-9-30_23-29-44.png


When your Giratina-O is Rash:
upload_2017-9-30_23-30-7.png


Considerable damage to take it down over couple forced switches, I guess.


--​


So that's about it. Again, this is theorymon'd set that was built around a 'mon that I personally like and I arbitrarily slapped in an Ability and 4 moves to make it work. I would like to hear if this set is good on paper / reality. Please keep this in mind when you are going to comment or criticize (which I will appreciate) on this set. Thanks and have a good night.
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
I think this Ray set does not work,
as far as i understand Ray mega evolves on use of Dragon Ascent, so

1.) Imposter might break your Illusion with Fake out.
2.) Something faster with an Ice move might KO before your ability changes.
3.) You have to use Dragon Ascent even with better alternative moves.
4.) Once forced out Strong Winds is a weak ability.

I have seen Shed using Regenerator M-Ray yesterday, M-Ray is almost as flexible as P-Don.
The main thing M-Ray always had is its sheer unpredictability, running a normal Ray pretty much gives away the set.
You can always run Contrary Judgement if you afraid of Imposter.


edit; Good calculator above.
No, you can Mega evolve without using dragon ascent in your turn, it just has to be in your movepool:
Mega evolution takes place before any priority Attack, at the start of your turn, as Illusion gets permanent with Mega evolution, it doesn't wear off as long as you Mega evolve before hit, aka you don't switch it in unevolved and then lose it and try to evolve it.

The whole point is no one would use an Ice move if they believe you have Shedinja, they would use sunsteel strike, moongeist beam, etc. Overall, it Mega evolves before the first move, you you get the ability activated on its first turn in at the start of the turn as you Belly Drum when they send in their Shedinja counter, and you sweep.

Dragon Ascent is like a Brave Bird without Recoil. If it didn't require Dragon Ascent I guess Acrobatics would be the next best thing, but at that point you still lose 15 Base power (10 + STAB = 15, or 30 when Super Effective).

Since when is Delta Stream not good? It's like using Roost without the heal but maintaining its typing , which helps it survive, while other Illusion users might have a more offensive ability, Rayquaza-Mega is already using Belly Drum, and has 180 Base Attack and an Adamant Nature...

Can we stop only posting counters and worse case scenarios? I know I would have hazards cleared from my side of the field because it would give away the fact Rayquaza has Illusion since no Shedinja can take 25% damage at 1 HP, so realistically I would send out ray after clearing it. Kyurem B wouldn't require it to be cleared for Refrigerate to be successful.

The point of Rayquaza isn't just to handle some of its counters. It's to trick people into sending in their Shedinja counter only to lose it to Rayquaza:
+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kartana: 718-846 (222.9 - 262.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kartana: 160-188 (49.6 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 238-281 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 414-488 (86.6 - 102%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rocks
252 Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 175-207 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
--assuming it does not have Prankster:

+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 296-348 (81.3 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It will use Haze, etc. and then die next turn, which could lead to Stealth Rocks finishing it off it it survives at 6.25% or less.


Further, the point is for it to combo with Shedinja, I send in Rayquaza to clear its counters, then if a counter comes in on Rayquaza I send in Shedinja to force them to switch... they cover each other.
 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
No, you can Mega evolve without using dragon ascent in your turn, it just has to be in your movepool:
Mega evolution takes place before any priority Attack, at the start of your turn, as Illusion gets permanent with Mega evolution, it doesn't wear off as long as you Mega evolve before hit, aka you don't switch it in unevolved and then lose it and try to evolve it.

The whole point is no one would use an Ice move if they believe you have Shedinja, they would use sunsteel strike, moongeist beam, etc. Overall, it Mega evolves before the first move, you you get the ability activated on its first turn in at the start of the turn as you Belly Drum when they send in their Shedinja counter, and you sweep.

Dragon Ascent is like a Brave Bird without Recoil. If it didn't require Dragon Ascent I guess Acrobatics would be the next best thing, but at that point you still lose 15 Base power (10 + STAB = 15, or 30 when Super Effective).

Since when is Delta Stream not good? It's like using Roost without the heal but maintaining its typing , which helps it survive, while other Illusion users might have a more offensive ability, Rayquaza-Mega is already using Belly Drum, and has 180 Base Attack and an Adamant Nature...

Can we stop only posting counters and worse case scenarios? I know I would have hazards cleared from my side of the field because it would give away the fact Rayquaza has Illusion since no Shedinja can take 25% damage at 1 HP, so realistically I would send out ray after clearing it. Kyurem B wouldn't require it to be cleared for Refrigerate to be successful.

The point of Rayquaza isn't just to handle some of its counters. It's to trick people into sending in their Shedinja counter only to lose it to Rayquaza:
+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kartana: 718-846 (222.9 - 262.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kartana: 160-188 (49.6 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 238-281 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 414-488 (86.6 - 102%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rocks

252 Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 175-207 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Further, the point is for it to combo with Shedinja, I send in Rayquaza to clear its counters, then if a counter comes in on Rayquaza I send in Shedinja to force them to switch... they cover each other.
ok. i'm sorry but this set doesn't look like it can really sweep any teams at all.

psychic surge mmy is extremely common and that just sorta wins

let's say you're up against a more defensive squad. what's the most common prankster haze user? registeel. it completely walls you if it gets a haze off.

sash smash with dazzling/qm wins as well, which really kinda takes away the point of a drummer in the first place.

and i'm sorry but who hard switches kartana into shedinja? if they didn't have any ghosts they'd sack something else, not the one mon they had to hit shed lol

you're talking to us about "worst case scenarios", but meanwhile you're assuming the following things:

1) you have hazards cleared. how many defoggers do you have man
2) your opponent falls for the illusion without remotely suspecting that the non-mega rayquaza on your team might have a certain ability
3) psychic surge mmy is not your opponent's shed answer

also stop assuming you have both illusion and unburden

man this set looks like it has some potential but it's not perfect in its current state imo. being forced to carry dragon hammer for giratina sucks for coverage and it's too prone to revenge killing. it looks like it can never get more than 1 kill unless you create the perfect conditions for it (surge mmy gone, sashes broken, prankster haze gone, unaware gone)

instead of just relentlessly defending your set, why don't you actually listen to what other people are saying? they're listing counters so you can adjust your set to hit those counters. that's right they want to improve your set. if you just say "check it out my set sweeps everything" while waving away every flaw people point out, your set isn't going to get any better. neither are you

post finish sorry if that sounded mean but it's what i believe
 
OM! Counters and worst case scenarios are the most important considerations to any set though. Otherwise team synergy wouldn't be so important. You don't really build and plan for a best case scenario since, in those, you win! I mean, obviously, you build to try to win, but you don't set-up your win condition while mostly considering how it wins. You consider how your wincon fails so you can avoid those situations.

On hazards, yes, you'll try to have them clear. But, you need to consider, for those and other things: shuffling from Whirlwind and similar, spin-blocking if you're using Rapid Spin, Taunt and the like if using Defog, their hazard setting gleefully PP stalling your Defog since hazards have more PP, your hazard removal getting slept/KOed, Shedinja getting KOed before you can use Ray (especially vs hazard shuffling), Ray getting statused on set-up (it's not uncommon for someone to fire Will-O-Wisp, Sacred Fire, Toxic, or similar at Shedinja), damaging weather exposing your strategy, Ray getting U-Turned on switch or on Belly Drum, Ray getting seriously damaged or KOed by Sungeist, Primal Weather shutting down your strong winds, and so forth.

There's a lot that can go wrong and you need to be prepared for all of it. This is true for any set, honestly, so you gotta be ready. We don't point out flaws to tell you your set is bad (or... at least I don't, I'll just straight up tell you if a set is bad), but so you can prepare for as many situations as possible.


RNGIsFatal A big problem is Transform is a two-turn recovery and assumes Audino carries recovery (it nearly always does, but I saw a Regenvest Audino once on a well ranked team, so worth noting I suppose.) You also need to predict the switch-in, otherwise Audino, or your other Transform target, will very likely just pivot out on you. And since they'll likely outslow, you'll be staring down the barrel of something that can smash their own whatever you copied, leaving you unable to safely recover, or use you as set-up fodder. Its cool, but seems way too risky and too reliant on on the opponent. And, it only works once. They can predict the Transform and send in something you don't want to copy, like a Shedinja or a self-Imposter proof sweeper.

Honestly, a set like that, I'd just drop one of the Dragon STABs for better coverage and Transform and focus on being a bulky, offensive presence. You don't have set-up and Giratina's offenses are not spectacular, so you don't really need to do a lot to protect yourself from opposing Imposters.
 
For Tina, if you have toxic spikes, you can also try out a merciless Hex set as a bulkier alternative to Gengar-Mega. I haven't tried it out so far as I don't use a tspikes based team, but may be worth a try.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
ok. i'm sorry but this set doesn't look like it can really sweep any teams at all.

psychic surge mmy is extremely common and that just sorta wins

let's say you're up against a more defensive squad. what's the most common prankster haze user? registeel. it completely walls you if it gets a haze off.

sash smash with dazzling/qm wins as well, which really kinda takes away the point of a drummer in the first place.

and i'm sorry but who hard switches kartana into shedinja? if they didn't have any ghosts they'd sack something else, not the one mon they had to hit shed lol

you're talking to us about "worst case scenarios", but meanwhile you're assuming the following things:

1) you have hazards cleared. how many defoggers do you have man
2) your opponent falls for the illusion without remotely suspecting that the non-mega rayquaza on your team might have a certain ability
3) psychic surge mmy is not your opponent's shed answer

also stop assuming you have both illusion and unburden

man this set looks like it has some potential but it's not perfect in its current state imo. being forced to carry dragon hammer for giratina sucks for coverage and it's too prone to revenge killing. it looks like it can never get more than 1 kill unless you create the perfect conditions for it (surge mmy gone, sashes broken, prankster haze gone, unaware gone)

instead of just relentlessly defending your set, why don't you actually listen to what other people are saying? they're listing counters so you can adjust your set to hit those counters. that's right they want to improve your set. if you just say "check it out my set sweeps everything" while waving away every flaw people point out, your set isn't going to get any better. neither are you

post finish sorry if that sounded mean but it's what i believe
I never assumed Unburden. It's pure Illusion.
I did accept their Criticism but I defended my set when THEY were Wrong, I.e. When they said Refrigerate Kyu-B/W kills it when clearly if I have SR, it will win... Pixelate handled by Ray if it is Xerneus.

Also, I own my mistakes, I was simply acknowledging theirs as well.

Like when I posted the Rayquaza video to show how Rayquaza Mega evolves, it doesn't need to use Dragon Ascent in the turn it Megas.

If people acknowledged: Wow it KOs many things and loses to others, that's different than simply listing all things it can't win against... I know Unaware Zygarde handles a lot of things, because it is such a good wall, and it's generic enough to be useful against anything non-Ice.

Would Tail Glow Triage Rayquaza fair better? No, it's boosts are ignored as well, it's own ability would be negated by Core Enforcer and unless it packs Ice it won't KO it.
 
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No, you can Mega evolve without using dragon ascent in your turn, it just has to be in your movepool:
Mega evolution takes place before any priority Attack, at the start of your turn, as Illusion gets permanent with Mega evolution, it doesn't wear off as long as you Mega evolve before hit, aka you don't switch it in unevolved and then lose it and try to evolve it.

The whole point is no one would use an Ice move if they believe you have Shedinja, they would use sunsteel strike, moongeist beam, etc. Overall, it Mega evolves before the first move, you you get the ability activated on its first turn in at the start of the turn as you Belly Drum when they send in their Shedinja counter, and you sweep.
(1)
Dragon Ascent is like a Brave Bird without Recoil. If it didn't require Dragon Ascent I guess Acrobatics would be the next best thing, but at that point you still lose 15 Base power (10 + STAB = 15, or 30 when Super Effective).
(2)
Since when is Delta Stream not good? It's like using Roost without the heal but maintaining its typing , which helps it survive, while other Illusion users might have a more offensive ability, Rayquaza-Mega is already using Belly Drum, and has 180 Base Attack and an Adamant Nature...
(3)
Can we stop only posting counters and worse case scenarios? I know I would have hazards cleared from my side of the field because it would give away the fact Rayquaza has Illusion since no Shedinja can take 25% damage at 1 HP, so realistically I would send out ray after clearing it. Kyurem B wouldn't require it to be cleared for Refrigerate to be successful.
(4)

The point of Rayquaza isn't just to handle some of its counters. It's to trick people into sending in their Shedinja counter only to lose it to Rayquaza:
+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kartana: 718-846 (222.9 - 262.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kartana: 160-188 (49.6 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 238-281 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 414-488 (86.6 - 102%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rocks
252 Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 175-207 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
--assuming it does not have Prankster:
(5)
+6 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 296-348 (81.3 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It will use Haze, etc. and then die next turn, which could lead to Stealth Rocks finishing it off it it survives at 6.25% or less.


Further, the point is for it to combo with Shedinja, I send in Rayquaza to clear its counters, then if a counter comes in on Rayquaza I send in Shedinja to force them to switch... they cover each other.
(6)
1) Why are you talking about ice coverage if Delta Stream halves that?
2) We know what Dragon Ascent is. You are just weakening yourself so that -ate kills you back faster with that move. You could totally go with Acrobatics to improve imposterproofness. Also what are you hitting SE anyway? MMX is either forced out immediately or is Sash Smash APS and doesn't care about anything from Ray or Shed.
3) Delta Stream has never been good. It isn't like Desoland on Primal Groudon that halves the number of weakness it has WHILE boosting V-create. Many check to Ray don't require to target its x4 ice weakness to beat it. Also wtf of an explanation is that?
4) Ok so you are assuming that hazard are never on the field or that you can effectively keep your field clear. This is nice but it doesn't reflect reality, not even close. Having at least 2 Pokemon that doesn't work with hazard up means you need 2 mons dedicated to non allowing hazard on the field because if you only use 1 then that pokemon is going to be extremely pressured, especially if the setter isn't something offensively pathetic like Registeel. What if the setter is Diancie with SR, Boomburst, V-create and Sunsteel Strike?
5) You are assuming 5 wrong things here: what is a Shedinja counter, what defense does back, pretending that the opponent has hazards on its field but you don't (gotta be hard as hell if you have to protect 2 pokemons at once), knowing what the opponent will do and calculations.
5.1)We don't run a Shedinja counter anymore, it's more like there are like 4 ways on any decent team that can deal with Shedinja, given that Moon-Strike can be slapped on anything, clearing hazard works a little worse since Prankster Defog doesn't work on APS and Dark and lastly Core Enforcer exists and deals with more than half of the meta.
5.3)Why on earth Solgaleo or Kartana should run a Life Orb? LO Solgaleo is nonsense, and Kartana works better with a choice set, not to mention that: Kartana isn't a wall and by the way you completely ignored Kartana's ability, that could totally be Steelworker to dish additional damage. It seems like you are unaware that Unaware exist (had to do this, sorry everyone). And if they are running Spectral Thief it will end up badly for Ray.
Unaware Tina, not that viable but well within its possible sets, does this:
252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Unaware Giratina: 288-342 (57.1 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Giratina Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 387-456 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
SR might not be on the field but it's a OHKO anyway because Belly Drum reduced your health.
5.5)Lastly, your calcs not only ignores the virtual SR damage you get from Belly Drum, but you are also "forgetting" the -1 on defences provoked by Dragon Ascent that makes Ray easier to revenge kill.
This is a more realistic Kartana 1vs1.
252 Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 373-441 (90 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Outspeeds you since you are Adamant)
252+ Atk Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 274-324 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Scarf variant outspeeds no matter what and chip damage from almost anything will make this a OHKO).
6)And for the last, you are assuming that Ray and Shed have complete opposite counters and that there isn't a common check, or counter, to them.
That isn't true, of course. The sets I mentioned earlier are examples of pokemon that checks both Ray and Shedinja, and many more exists.
Normalize Gengar: is untouchable.
Psychic Surge MMY: OHKOes Rayquaza after Drum and usually carries Moongeist Beam to round its coverage.
Steels with Unaware: they sit on Rayquaza and act as they please, like spreading hazards.
Shedinja: is untouchable.
Prankster: Topsy Turvy, Encore and Haze end Ray sweep before it starts and ray is susceptible to all of them.

EDIT: minor changes, correcting grammar or syntax errors.
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
1) Why are you talking about ice coverage if Delta Stream halves that?
2) We know what Dragon Ascent is. You are just weakening yourself so that -ate kills you back faster with that move. You could totally go with Acrobatics to improve imposterproofness. Also what are you hitting SE anyway? MMX is either forced out immediately or is Sash Smash APS and doesn't care about anything from Ray or Shed.
3) Delta Stream has never been good. It isn't like Desoland on Primal Groudon that halves the number of weakness it has WHILE boosting V-create. Many check to Ray don't require to target its x4 ice weakness to beat it. Also wtf of an explanation is that?
4) Ok so you are assuming that hazard are never on the field or that you can effectively keep your field clear. This is nice but it doesn't reflect reality, not even close. Having at least 2 Pokemon that doesn't work with hazard up means you need 2 mons dedicated to non allowing hazard on the field because if you only use 1 then that pokemon it is going to be extremely pressured, especially if the setter isn't something offensively pathetic like Registeel. What if the setter is Diancie with SR, Boomburst, V-create and Sunsteel Strike?
5) You are assuming 5 wrong things here: what is a Shedinja counter, what defense does back, pretending that the opponent has hazards on its field but you don't (gotta be hard as hell if you have to protect 2 pokemons at once), knowing what the opponent will do and calculations.
5.1)We don't run a Shedinja counter anymore, it's more like there are like 4 Pokemon on any decent team that can deal with Shedinja, given that Moon-Strike can be slapped on anything, clearing hazard works a little worse since Prankster Defog doesn't work on APS and Dark and lastly Core Enforcer exists and deals with more than half of the meta.
5.3)Why on earth Solgaleo or Kartana should run a Life Orb? LO Solgaleo is nonsense, and Kartana works better with a choice set, not to mention that: Kartana isn't a wall and by the way you completely ignored Kartana's ability, that could totally be Steelworker to dish additional damage. It seems like you are unaware that Unaware exist (had to do this, sorry everyone). And if they are running Spectral Thief it will end up badly for Ray.
Unaware Tina, not that viable but well within its possible sets, does this:
252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Unaware Giratina: 288-342 (57.1 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Giratina Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 387-456 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
SR might not be on the field but it's a OHKO anyway because Belly Drum reduced your health.
5.4)Lastly, your calcs not only ignores the virtual SR damage you get from Belly Drum, but you also "forgetting" the -1 on defences provoked by Dragon Ascent that makes Ray easier to revenge kill.
This is a more realistic Kartana 1vs1.
252 Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 373-441 (90 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Outspeeds you since you are Adamant)
252+ Atk Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 274-324 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Scarf variant outspeeds no matter what and chip damage from almost anything will make this a OHKO).
6)And for the last, you are assuming that Ray and Shed have complete opposite counters and that there isn't a common check, or counter, to them.
That isn't true, of course. The sets I mentioned earlier are examples of pokemon that checks both Ray and Shedinja, and many more exists.
Normalize Gengar: is untouchable.
Psychic Surge MMY: OHKOes Rayquaza after Drum and usually carries Moongeist Beam to round its coverage.
Steels with Unaware: they sit on Rayquaza and act as they please, like spreading hazards.
Shedinja: is untouchable.
Prankster: Topsy Turvy, Encore and Haze end Ray sweep before it starts and ray is susceptible to all of them.
I won't begin to read posts this long. I have like 5 people going after something I posted, in sorry I cannot reply to try and explain to each of you.

Edit: yours was posted literally just as I was editing my post from my last reply above. I would have to did through each persons point and try and go over what is valid, etc. and it's too much. Sorry.
#WhiteFlag
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
I won't begin to read posts this long. I have like 5 people going after something I posted, in sorry I cannot reply to try and explain to each of you.

Edit: yours was posted literally just as I was editing my post from my last reply above. I would have to did through each persons point and try and go over what is valid, etc. and it's too much. Sorry.
#WhiteFlag
If you are refusing to read feedback from people in the first place, what are you trying to accomplish by posting a set? Why would you ever post your Rayquaza set if you think you are that perfect being and believe you don't need to read a feedback that precisely points out systemic errors from your set just because of the length of the post doesn't please you? Did you intend to farm likes with your post with subpar sets or what? You have been doing this for almost every set you have posted; every time we have attempted to benevolently and precisely point out why your set does not work or why your set has some errors, you never accepted what happens in the real metagame and just override other people's arguments just by closing your ears and saying "la-la-la, but this works in specific occasions" or some sort.

I will get rid of the harsh tone and move on to the point: even myself, for every set I post, I always end up asking "What do you all think?" or "Feel free to point out errors" because I am aware that I don't make perfect sets and no sets in this meta works against everything due to the premise of the metagame allowing any Pokemon to do anything. If you still want to show off your sets but don't wish to see the "boring lectures" or "nitpicking annoyance", I am sorry but this thread isn't the best place for you. In other words, you can't really expect to have good feedback from us if you aren't going to respect diverse perspective from different people we have around.


^ was too harsh, wouldn't mind if a mod edits and deletes the portion about but I really had to say it.


--


Answering a feedback to my Giratina-O set so this post will have some relevance to metagame discussion

Rumors thanks for the feedback, I agree Transforming into Audino and recovering will eventually lead to a mind game between me and my opponent, and that is going to be an issue; however, I thought a bulky offense set need some form of sustainability and most of those kind of sets have serious flaws of letting Imposter switch in, sit there and spam recover while I have to switch out to improofing 'mon and that's why I have arrived to a decision to staple in Transform. But yeh, two-turn recovery is never a reliable way of sustaining.

Probably dropping Core Enforcer will be best because although the move supports a team it tends to bait Fairy-types and Draco Meteor will finish Dragon-types that underestimates Giratian-O's raw power without giving them a second chance or whatsoever. I was thinking about slapping in Shadow Sneak to pick off weakened Gengar or Metwtwo family like it is used in Ubers but the full EV and anti-priority keeps this from being efficient. And regarding recovery / residual damage issues, carrying stuff like Roost will be an instant invitation to Imposter. So as of now, I have hard time coming up with anything other than Transform when it comes to recovery. Leech Seed might work by letting me hit Shedinja without carrying low PP Moongeist but it will make it even more susceptible to Magic Bounce Audino.

Both you and I pointed these drawbacks and probably they are the ones that keep Giratina-O from being effective in the current meta. I will try making it more viable for a while and probably move on to making non-Refrigerate Kyurem-W set... thanks again and hope Giratina-O becomes viable some day :P
 
If an Imposter spamming Recover is a big issue, try Strength Sap and Improofing with someone with crummy Attack so that Chansey gets negligible heals, or Magic Bounce so it can't heal at all. Or offensively improof with someone who can use the Imposter spamming Recover as set-up bait. Or third alternatively, if you can fit it, run Wish support. Or you can scrap recovery altogether if you think you can get away with it.
 
If an Imposter spamming Recover is a big issue, try Strength Sap and Improofing with someone with crummy Attack so that Chansey gets negligible heals, or Magic Bounce so it can't heal at all. Or offensively improof with someone who can use the Imposter spamming Recover as set-up bait. Or third alternatively, if you can fit it, run Wish support. Or you can scrap recovery altogether if you think you can get away with it.
The best Strenght Sap absorber in the game is Chansey: improof with you own imposter. With a massive attack of, well, 13 (or 15 when not Atk-) the imposter heals back only 2% of its hp.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hello all,

Wish you could relive all your old teams collecting dust in your Teambuilder from last gen? Started this gen and never got to use my Dialga-Xerneas core last gen? Fret not, now you can since Gen 6 Balanced Hackmons has been chosen as the LCoTM of October 2017!

Friendly reminders:
  • Links to the Gen6 BH ladder, Central Resources and suspect threads can be found in the OP of this thread (here)
  • Check out the Old Gen Metagame Thread to see and have any post SM gen 6 general and banlist discussion (headed by MAMP Funbot28 and motherlove)
 
Here is a set I have been experimenting with:
Kyogre-Primal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
- Volt Switch / Moongeist Beam / Thunder / Earth Power
- Steam Eruption / Filler (see above)
This does more damage than Specs Surge MMY and is less prepared for. Also has decent bulk. To improof, use Desoland PDon (with recovery). Would like SR and Healing support as Steam Eruption is not nearly as powerful as max Water Spout
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega in Heavy Rain: 474-558 (115.6 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo in Heavy Rain: 400-472 (83.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo in Heavy Rain: 400-472 (83.6 - 98.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel in Heavy Rain: 417-492 (114.5 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield in Heavy Rain: 417-492 (128.7 - 151.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete in Heavy Rain: 577-679 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete in Heavy Rain: 577-679 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 616-728 (96.8 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 616-728 (96.8 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina in Heavy Rain: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina in Heavy Rain: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 262-310 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 175-206 (43.3 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 175-206 (43.3 - 50.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 250-295 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados-Mega in Heavy Rain: 231-273 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Regigigas in Heavy Rain: 573-675 (135.1 - 159.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus in Heavy Rain: 492-580 (110.8 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga in Heavy Rain: 279-328 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Swampert-Mega in Heavy Rain: 573-675 (141.8 - 167%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 394-465 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see there are almost nothing that can switch in to this thing in the top viability rankings. And this thing survives a lot of hits too:
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal in Psychic Terrain: 262-310 (64.8 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal in Psychic Terrain: 289-342 (71.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal in Psychic Terrain: 310-366 (76.7 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal in Harsh Sunshine: 262-309 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 262-309 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 338-398 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ SpA Steelworker Dialga Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252 SpA Triage Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 235-277 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 85-102 (21 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Diancie-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 78-93 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO

The only problem this thing has is that it can't do much against imposter. But there is easy improofing with Desoland PDon:
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 107-126 (26.4 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 117-138 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 2.3% chance to 3HKO
 
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So, for funsies, I'm curious, how many viable teams are affected by the Primaldon ban? Anyone wanna submit data to me, since I kinda wanna gather it up for curiosity sake and find out. Just want to know how many teams needed significant changes out of your selection of viable teams, and, of those, how many were using Don itself.

For example, I had five teams out of eight viable teams directly impacted, with four of them using Don itself. Those numbers don't count my silly, meme, experimental, out-dated, and bad teams.


---------


Meanwhile, Primaldon's removal is gonna have some major changes. Some predictions of mine are...

-Fire and Ground-typed offense get really diversified and reduced in power, since, if I remember correctly, no other Fire or Ground types have such high base Attack nor mixed offenses. Expect to see Reshiram, Mega-Blazekin, Charizard-Y, Red Orb Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega-Garchomp to fill in.

-Random Water-coverage will be less common since it really doesn't hit much beyond 'Don that's relevant. This means Burns will probably be less common due to fewer random Scalds.

-Fur Coat becomes less common. It's still a really good ability with plenty of use, but the opportunity cost for running something else isn't so steep.

-Fire-immunity loses viability, for the same reasons. Primordial Sea may stick around to really tick off Red Orb Groudon if it tries to hang out, but that'll be specific anti-Groudon stuff mostly, I think.

-Zygarde-C and Giratina become a bit less common, especially as Fur Coat users, since there isn't so much pressure from Banded Deo Land V-Creates.

-Electric-tyes see viability increase. Zekrom especially, as most Ground-types will be weak to its Dragon STAB. Manectric and Xurkitree no longer need a Water-typed move just for Primaldon, freeing up their moveslots and prediction quite a bit and lets them be more flexible. Ampharos-Mega might start seeing some use.

-Likewise, Volt Switch sees an increase in viability. Volt Switching onto Zygarde is a lot less detrimental than onto Primaldon, especially with Choice.

-Ferrothorn loses viability? At least FF Ferothorn. Blazekin's STAB is super-effective, so if it ends up being the main Fire-type, might see more FF Venusaur instead. Prankster Ferro becomes more viable though by virtue of better opportunity cost now.

And uhhh... I'll probably think of a dozen more but, well, don't have them on my head right now. Tired from work and all!
 

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