Metagame Benjamin Butterfree


Ok, after this discussion in the thread and some deliberation on my own, I have decided that the best course of action to take is to Ban Blissey and Chansey. As Shonen Bat and others have said, both are very powerful on their own, and almost necessitates the usage of Conkeldurr or a Blissey of your own, and skews the battle into "whichever team has their blob die first loses".

Tagging The Immortal to get this ban implemented on showdown.

If you think this is ban is an incorrect course of action, or if you have a better idea, discuss it here.

Other than that, discuss the meta post-Blissey and Chansey ban
 
Just now, I just made a match and the correction is not yet effective (anyway there is nothing serious: it's just a sprite problem and mon's designation).
I don't actually know how the sprites work, but you can't rename a Pokémon during a battle. It's a bit like e.g. Mega Evolutions: the name doesn't change, although when it gets sent out you see the actual species in parentheses, and there's also the tooltips.
 
I would like to suggest ban eviolite instead cause a blissey with no eviolite die at least and everything with eviolite takes hit that make them better than their last stage of evolution
 
I would like to suggest ban eviolite instead cause a blissey with no eviolite die at least and everything with eviolite takes hit that make them better than their last stage of evolution
Banning eviolite would cause an unnecessary nerf to other mons that aren’t broken. Even mons like Tangela or Scyther is pretty bad even with Eviolite. Rhydon and Magneton aren’t bad but they are not Blissey + Chansey level of broken. Other evolved mons like Conk, Gliscor, Weavile would prefer things other than Eviolite. The blobs are the problem, not eviolite.
 

Jrsmash9

jrsmash that timer
Its quite obvious that blissey is the problem because it basically allows you to have two chansey's. Chansey gains nothing from the metagame besides devolving into happiny which can only toxic or healbell. Its basically equivalent to ou, however the problem is that people will only run 3 stage mons. Just like in ou you need to run wallbreakers or else you will lose to bulkier mons like chansey and toxapex. Most wallbreakers are single staged like (medi, maw, tran, lando, hoopa, kyub, and lele) but they still do their job and help break through balance and stall builds that utilize chansey
 
while chansey may be exactly the same as in ou, bb is not ou, ou wallbreakers that beat chansey such as the ones you listed are not as viable here, and will get worn down or killed outright by pokemon that perform well in bb, either due to longevity (medicham gets laughed off the stage by sableye for example) or due to being a strong multistage mon that can afford to take an attack (hoopa or lando can get a kill on conk but they've still got a pissed off gurdurr ready to get revenge on the same turn)

and again, conk is a staple on most teams and almost a textbook chansey breaker - strong physical attacker, fighting type, benefits from status - yet chansey is still such a major problem that it was considered for a ban that was soon carried out. if a mon can't be beaten without using gimmicks like arena trap dugtrio or perish trap gengar, or is only beaten after dull 100+ turn battles consisting of mostly switches, it's probably that mon that is the problem and not everything else in the meta.
 

Ok, after this discussion in the thread and some deliberation on my own, I have decided that the best course of action to take is to Ban Blissey and Chansey. As Shonen Bat and others have said, both are very powerful on their own, and almost necessitates the usage of Conkeldurr or a Blissey of your own, and skews the battle into "whichever team has their blob die first loses".

Tagging The Immortal to get this ban implemented on showdown.

If you think this is ban is an incorrect course of action, or if you have a better idea, discuss it here.

Other than that, discuss the meta post-Blissey and Chansey ban
I banned just Blissey, because there's some obvious debate against Chansey. I think you should look at the meta without Blissey and see if Chansey is still a problem and if it is then I'll gladly ban it.
 
I banned just Blissey, because there's some obvious debate against Chansey. I think you should look at the meta without Blissey and see if Chansey is still a problem and if it is then I'll gladly ban it.
I think the debate concern only chansey, blissey suck cause it's a chansey with no eviolite, then it devolve and here goes the chansey eviolite
 
I disagree heavily with not banning Chansey, but at this point I don't think it matters anyway. Stall (with blobs or not) is all that matters in bb now, barely anyone but the hardcore stall runners on top of the ladder even want to play it. That includes me now, so have a sample team.



Magnezone Balance

Magnezone is able to switch in on a large number of threats thanks to his good defenses and typing, and generate momentum as needed by pivoting out. Speed EVs are run to outspeed uninvested steel mons like (Mega) Scizor and other Magnezone and hit them hard before they can act. Togekiss is a good partner for Zone and has a lot of survivability with Roost.

Krookodile and Conkeldurr hit like trucks and can do serious damage on a free switch from Magnezone or on a predicted switch. Gengar is a strong lategame cleaner as its high offense and speed will let it one-shot many unevolved mons. it is effective against stall teams as many common stall mons are at a disadvantage against Gengar, but perish trapping doesn't have much use outside of countering stall.

Serperior is one of the few setup sweepers that still has viability, and fast support moves like Taunt and Glare keep it from being a sitting duck if it can't sweep. Giga Drain can safely be used to stop Serp from being worn down, as it doesn't have many other useful attack options.

vs Balance:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7benjaminbutterfree-789254454
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7benjaminbutterfree-787034800

vs Stall:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7benjaminbutterfree-786539925

Jasper (Krookodile) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off/Crunch
- Pursuit
- Taunt

White Diamond (Magnezone) @ Eviolite
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Volt Switch

Zircon (Conkeldurr) (M) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off
- Mach Punch

Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Infestation/Dazzling Gleam
- Perish Song/Substitute

Star Opal (Togekiss) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 108 SpA / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Roost
- Defog

Malachite (Serperior) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Taunt
- Giga Drain
- Glare

This is a really fun and creative metagame but Blissey and Chansey seriously needed to be banned on like day two. I hope it can get another chance sometime.
 
Last edited:
I started playing yesterday and i really like the meta. Regarding Chansey situation, i don't fight against any chansey yet, but that might be because after Blissey ban she lost popularity especially in the low/mid ladder, where people want to play with the new toys of the meta (Infernape, Conkeldur, Serperior, etc), and not because Chansey is not good anymore.

I want to hear what answers besides Conkeldur and Knock off people have to fight against her. I thought on choice scarf Porygon as a way to stop her since she will enter against it, and receive a scarf gift, which shut down Chansey almost completly (but you have to be carefull with your knock off and tricking the eviolite to another pokemon, but the latter shoudn't happen since eviolite is nice on Porygon). You can also trick a toxic orb with some magic guard user.

There is a bug with the move Assist. It should not consider disabled moves when a Pokémon has devolved, but it does. Please look at the following replay:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7benjaminbutterfree-792833972
I think this is how the mechanic works rather than a bug. Leaving a move with 0 PP might be easier than removing it. I would be worried if leppa berry is triggered after your gyarados devolves for example


taunt, torment, leech seed, and curse(ghost) also sticking around post-devolution

This is quite problematic, and really easy to abuse. Sub seed is a good tactic to prevent your opponent from revenging your Serperior/Breelom on the turn their pokemon devolves, but allowing you to keep draining after the devolution is quite an issue. Maybe something similar applies to curse. Infestation and Torment are quite problematic too (and confusion on Machamp or Outrage users).


One small request. Allow clicking for signature Z-moves on evolved pokemon that can't use the Z-move you want to excecute. I faced a guy with a Vaporeon who devolves into and Eeveenium-Z Eevee, but he coudn't use the Z-move on the turn Vaporeon fainted. I know this is quite situational but since you can click for Z-moves on your evolved pokemon even when your devolutions can't use the Z-move or the move itself i think it would be nice if it also happens the other way around (and the Z-move woudn't excecute if the pokemon doesn't devolve).
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
One small request. Allow clicking for signature Z-moves on evolved pokemon that can't use the Z-move you want to excecute. I faced a guy with a Vaporeon who devolves into and Eeveenium-Z Eevee, but he coudn't use the Z-move on the turn Vaporeon fainted. I know this is quite situational but since you can click for Z-moves on your evolved pokemon even when your devolutions can't use the Z-move or the move itself i think it would be nice if it also happens the other way around (and the Z-move woudn't excecute if the pokemon doesn't devolve).
theoretically, assuming the mechanics of the sim are the valid mechanics, using a Z move with 0 pp shouldn't happen to begin with, and i'd assume deevolution would work the same way
in terms of your point tho, imagine playing this metagame on cart for a second (as in imagine if Pokemon's mechanics in their current state work like this). would you be able to click "Extreme Evoboost" on the turn your Vaporeon faints to select it? no, as eeveeium z is coded for eevee and not vaporeon, and when you select a move, the pokemon is still a vaporeon, so just wouldn't work like that, keeping things consistent with mechanics
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top