BW OU Viability Ranking

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I think it looks much better this way than what it was before. The A rankings can be more accurately tuned with the two extra subs.

I still think Volcarona could drop one place though, because of the support (at least it's at the bottom of its current rank though).
 
Outside of some tournaments, ROA has been pretty inactive for a while, especially the BW related threads. Considering that this thread hasn't had much discussion in a while, I thought I might talk about some changes I'd like to suggest, if even just to get some discussion about them.

The most glaring issue in my opinion is Excadrill's position. Despite your dislike of it there is no way that B+ is an accurate depiction of its threat level and capabilities. Sand Force Excadrill has jack switching into it, look at how much it does to some of the things that people try to bring in:
  • 252+ Atk Life Orb Sand Force Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory in Sand: 94-109 (28.1 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sand Force Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory in Sand: 186-218 (55.6 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sand Force Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Landorus-T in Sand: 161-191 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sand Force Excadrill Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T in Sand: 183-216 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ Atk Life Orb Sand Force Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Ferrothorn in Sand: 226-266 (64.2 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Life Orb Sand Force Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in Sand: 325-383 (91 - 107.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ Atk Life Orb Sand Force Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in Sand: 341-402 (105.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I don't usually like posting calcs in case they are considered 'cherry-picked', but these prove what a ferocious wallbreaker Excadrill is against common Pokemon found on the standard sand balanced teams. Assuming a set of Swords Dance / Earthquake / Iron Head / Rapid Spin @ Life Orb (with Adamant which I think is absolutely viable even on Sand Force Excadrill), Excadrill can SD every time that Skarmory is coming in, and because Skarmory can't touch Excadrill outside of Whirlwind, Excadrill just needs to get a single 30% Iron Head flinch in its matchup in order for it to get a kill and a dead Skarmory (or just a dead Skarmory but then you get more kills when you come in). You could have Rock Slide over SD and RS on the switch-in, flinch once with Iron Head, and then KO with Rock Slide. SDef Skarmory is easily the most common Skarmory variant at the moment due to things like Alakazam and Fire Blast Garchomp, and Excadrill only benefits from this. Defensive Landorus-T usually runs more Speed than Excadrill but it's 2HKOed over two switch ins into it, same with Scarf Landorus-T. Ferrothorn is easily 2HKOed. The fact that Garchomp and Keldeo are both OHKOed is honestly ridiculous.

I know people will be like 'well you have to run Jolly' but honestly I don't think that you need to, up to you I guess, it's still strong as fuck. Then there's the faster Sand Rush set, which is a complete nightmare to opposing sand teams, because it can often get funky with its set. Even without Sand Force this set is scary for sand to face for obvious reasons, it definitely has opportunities to SD up and it and can be absolutely tricky to take down if it is running something like Shuca / Chople or even Air Balloon considering Scarf Landorus-T doesn't run Superpower in BW. Excadrill also has an amazing typing which allows it to check Electric types thinking they can get away without running Fighting coverage, and resistances to Dragon and Rock are really nice as well in BW. It's also a very good spinner in general, especially when paired with partners like Magnezone or Heatran.

For me this Pokemon is easily at least at the bottom of your A gamma list.

Some smaller things: Breloom is below Politoed and Latios, yes sleep is broken and it can run a plethora of sets, but they are relatively easy to check or hinder, most teams are prepared for the possibility of Sash Breloom lead with countermeasures, the BU sets are good against sand but have problem with common Pokemon like Reuniclus / Alakazam / Latis / Mew / Skarmory unless last mon / Amoonguss with Clear Smog, and the Fighting Gem set is a good hole puncher but dies pretty quickly (I guess it has 'done its job' after it Spores and gets that damage off on Latios or Skarmory, it's one of the most dangerous variants). However while Breloom is a very good Pokemon, I can't see it above Latios, the most dangerous Pokemon in the game if you don't have a Tyranitar, or Politoed which enables massive playstyles and a wealth of Pokemon while also causing breakers like Tornadus and Starmie to wreak havoc.

Volcarona should move down to the top of A gamma, it is the most threatening setup sweeper in the tier and is broken, but it isn't easy to fit on teams, requires a massive amount of support, and has little chance to impact a lot of games where it has no use, yea, the same stuff some of the other people have said. I think Tornadus should move above Thund and Mamoswine given that its one of the scariest mons to face on rain and its ability to beat every Flying resist and Tailwind lategame. I also think Thund is better than Mamoswine, its just too slow and shitty typing defensively makes it infrequently impactful.

I also think Mew should rise to A delta and Gengar to the top of A epsilon, they are better than the rest if their rank. Magnezone and Slowking could probably rise to A epsilon after this absence, very underrated good mons with valuable roles.

I wouldn't mind Vaporeon rising to C, the set thaf Smurf uses (Life Orb Hydration Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Hidden Power [Grass] a la Manaphy can be very hard to switch into and also to kill without cutting off its weather, which is obviously hard considering Tyranitar can't switch into LO Modest Hydro Pump. I've gone on about Zapdos a bunch before but after using it a ton in the Major League tour (and going like 7-1 a Zapdos balance) I think its criminally underrated. The SubRoost set destroys rain, sand with TSpikes support, checks things like Scizor / Alakazam / Gengar, is helpful against DragMag cause you can Sub on Zone and HP Ice the Dragons and Thunder para Kyurem-B. It also leads vs Breloom and has a good set of resistances as well as power and bulk, and it is surprising how well it matches up with a lot of common Pokemon and the ease it pairs with spinners. Fully support this very high in C, even B-, it has performed that well for me.

I disagreed with Jirachi to S initially but am leaning towards it atm, still on the fence. Btw I feel the lower 2 A ranks could've just been B+ and B with everything scaled back from there. Maybe segregate C ranks?
 
Here what i would to changes :




Hydreigon : A >>> Ab

Hydreigon is one of the best breaker of the BW metagame, this thing have literally no switch-in on the metagame, it can be used as Wallbreaker with the LO or as Stallbreaker with Taunt. Most of time, you will have to force 50/50 with likes Scarf Tyranitar and to rely on the residual damage (SS, LO) on defensive team to beat it, offensive team can only check it offensively. It does have acces to Levitate which can allow you to work as a pseudo-ground resistence and which allow you to don't be hazard weak, which are on like 85 % BW games. It can threat thing like Reuniclus which is one of the most annoying setup-sweeper to face in the tier so hurting him with Dark Pulse even after an Calm Mind boost is really great.



Kyurem-B : A >>> Aδ

Kyurem-B is a good mon but not really an amazing one, its a good Wallbreaker but its outclassed by like Hydreigon because unlike him, its Stealth Rock week (and by that, hazard weak), an ability which isn't really usefull, only for Rotom-W which isn't the most used mon in the metagame (maybe forgot other mon). its only seen on like DragMag team.




Slowking : B+ >>> Aε

Slowking is a really good mon but its a little bit underrated, its one of the best Keldeo checks in the tier, it check many annoying mon and it have acces to Nasty Plot/Calm Mind which allow him to work as okay check to likes Politoed. Dragon Tail can also be used to phaze likes Reuniclus. Regenerator is a really good ability which allow him to don't get overhelmed by powerfull Water types attacks from rain with like Spikes support from Politoed, Keldeo.
 

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Excadrill really should move up to at least, it's a really good mon from my experience and needs to go up. Sand force on ttar teams can pressure mons like skarm with sd LO sets that normally wall it and sand rush sets on non-sand teams are really good since ttar is everwhere from what I've seen in this meta. It's such a strong wallbreaker that really doesn't need team support to do its job well. Granted it's matchup dependent, but there's a ton of shit in A that is and it really deserves to move up imo.
Hydreigon should really move up to Ab imo. It is one of, if not the best breakers that we have in the metagame and it can get a kill basically every time it comes in vs some teams, you can even run a stallbreaking set with tauntroost to beat normal "switch ins" like chansey and shit. Offensive teams have no way of checking this thing defensively, and it even resists pursuit which is really nice v fatter builds. It has an amazing matchup vs those reuni+spikes builds that I've been seeing a lot since it has levitate and obviously threatens reuni a lot. Granted it has subpar speed and can struggle vs heavy offensive builds because of how powerful most mon are in this metagame, but that's why I'm not nomming it to move to Aα or S.


Those were just a few things I noticed while checking this out.
 

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I think that Virizion should be moved up to B. It's a really decent mon that can really threaten a lot of teams due to it's power when set up and it's great 108 Speed. It can find a ton of set-up opportunities due to it's good defensive typing and decent bulk. It's also really great against Rain teams due to it's massive special bulk letting it tank Hydro Pumps really nicely and it's typing letting it threaten Pokemon like Ferrothorn, and it's also nice against Sand due to it's Grass-typing. While Virizion does have counters like the Lati's due to being outpaced by them and being set up on by Volcarona if it isn't CM + HP Rock or SD + Stone Edge, and it does face some competition from Breloom as a Grass/Fighting type, but Virizion has enough of a niche as an unpredictable sweeper with good speed and bulk to make it deserving of a raise to B imo.
 
I would like to spark discussion on a few things. I added pictures to make this wall of text look slightly less ugly


Moving Latios up to S.

It's really a crazy Pokemon; it's not as attention-grabbing as one might think at first with all the other powerful threats in the tier but it is impossible to go wrong with it on any kind of team, which says a lot. It's a check to incredibly dangerous Pokemon such as Keldeo and Garchomp. Its ability to pivot into, threaten and help dance around into bulkier status-inducing walls (think Mew, Jellicent, Gastrodon, Sableye) is incredibly useful for offensive teams that struggle with them on paper. It is pretty much impossible to counter - here are the best/most common responses to it, and how they can easily lose to standard moves in Latios' arsenal.
- Tyranitar: quite often just muscles right through with Draco / Surf. Crippled by Trick. This usually gets the job done but at a big price.
- Ferrothorn: HP Fire, Trick. Even Draco by itself takes a big chunk out if the subsequent Leech Seed is denied (Amoong / Reun / Zam) or isn't used (wanting hazards).
- Skarmory: The fact this is even here shows how sparse the anti-Latios options are. It needs to be Careful with (near) max SpD to stand up to it at all.
- Jirachi: Offensive sets get creamed by every attack that isn't Psyshock or Grass Knot. SpD can but it's a garbage set that hasn't been used in years and gets crippled by Trick.
- Heatran: Offensive sets get crushed, SpD sets do decently but Surf really stings (god forbid it's CM / in rain). Trick annoys it too.
- Scizor: Pursuit sets are rarer and they have a hard time switching in. Draco absolutely hammers them, Surf isn't far behind (rain?!), HP Fire is an easy OHKO... SpDef sets do pretty well against DM (still don't like rain Surf/HP Fire) but also get screwed by Trick.
- Chansey: Bad for the same reasons SpD Jirachi is (massive hazard bait) although if it's on a rain stall team like it should be/often is this could be mitigated. That said, it's rain stall. Also, Trick.

If you do not have Pursuit (which means Tyranitar, feasibly the kinda niche Metagross / rarer Pursuit Scizor although they just get destroyed by HP Fire, and Surf hits all of them really hard; and even in an absolute worst case scenario [since Psyshock is probably not getting spammed with those guys around] Draco Meteor will still cream them), Latios will come in all game and just bombard you endlessly, check it out. Even teams with Pursuit aren't necessarily safe due to Latios' extensive movepool and raw power.

Its Speed and typing and bulk and longevity (Spikes immune, Recover) lets it abuse its absurd power and near-perfect movepool to the fullest.

Tyranitar is incredibly bulky but Latios is so powerful that it regularly breaks through. Tar needs significant investment to even avoid the 2HKO from 2 Life Orb Draco Meteors with SR up, to give you an idea. Also bear in mind that Latios can very easily lead off with Surf since it also wards off the non-Ferro steels; Grass Knot hits Tyranitar even harder and is also quite viable (good for Gastrodon who plops itself in front of an offense team and expects to run right through, Jellicent can't Recover for years, even killing Starmie without having to Draco can be valuable) although it's obviously a much less spammable attack.

Its Specs set is also not just unbelievably powerful, but cripples literally every switchin it has with Trick. Tar losing Chople means Zam runs you through, losing Scarf / CB means it can potentially lose to Latios itself - also, losing Band means Reuniclus / Slowking / Jellicent / even Amoonguss just got scarier among other things. Plus it's still hitting you after the Trick. Sleep Talk turns broken BW sleep from Breloom and Amoonguss (even Hypnosis Politoed!) into its favor, see here or here.

Of course, Latios is not going to magically win games by itself or anything, and it IS managable (barely). However in the hands of a good player it is devastating, and even not-so-good players can easily jackhammer someone with it due to its raw power. Jirachee and I have this one team with bulky Pursuit Tyranitar, SpDef Skarmory and SCARF SCIZOR. Latios is still incredibly dangerous. S rank.


Moving Landorus-Therian up to S. Like Latios, it can fit in on absolutely any team. It is almost single-handedly the reason Terrakion dropped off from BW1 to BW2 (Keldeo and Rough Skin Garchomp didn't help obviously) and is why Gliscor is so much rarer today which speaks to its effect on the metagame, which it is a definitive part of. It is a consistent game-to-game performer in a variety of roles and it's among the best at everything it does (SR, Scarf, wallbreaking, and its traditional sweeping double dance set isn't seen that much anymore but is still devastating). There is a reason it absolutely dominates the usage statistics in every tournament. I really believe it deserves to be up there with Garchomp, Keldeo and Tyranitar (and Latios).


Moving Volcarona down to A4. Volc is really not that good. On paper it's terrifying to teams that don't bother trying to check it, sure, but it rarely sweeps even those teams. All too often you'll see its only setup opportunity to be early in the game and for Skarmory to check it with Sturdy. You've killed a Skarm which is never bad but you've also sacrificed your supposedly broken sweeper that theoretically absolutely destroyed the other team... because it just couldn't set up without getting crippled. It also can't run every item it wants (and it wants a lot of them). Of course it can potentially crush almost anything with the right coverage/item but its consistency is akin to the likes of Hydreigon, Kyurem-Black and Terrakion rather than fellows such as Heatran and Starmie. If the opponent is packing an actual check to it then it'll do nothing. On average, for every one or two Volc sweeps you'll see that people throw fits over, there'll be about five games where it's absolutely useless, but no one takes note of them. I think it has potential in a wallbreaking role with extra coverage since it's so powerful right off the bat and trying to go for matchup-based sweeps is not really my thing but for now I think it should drop.


I feel like parts of A4 and A5 should be swapped. I think Gastrodon, Amoonguss, Tentacruel and Mew should be a rank ahead of Thundurus-Theriann and Mamoswine, and should be in the same rank as the rest of A4.



I also believe we should look into moving Slowking up to an A rank, preferably the new A4. It is easily as legitimate and then some as those potential new additions in the utility department thanks to Regenerator minimizing how much it needs to waste a turn healing. It's also very potent offensively. Plus its access to a phazing move in Dragon Tail is a lifesaver.


Moving Celebi to B+ because the entire metagame just beats the shit out of it. It hasn't done anything useful in years.


Moving Mienshao up to an A rank, preferably the new A4. It's proven itself to be an incredible wallbreaker and a great Scarfer.


We could also discuss Jirachi to S, I think it falls in there but can't currently articulate why xD

Politoed to D rank rain sucks

bw uber alles
 
i agree with almost everything you said, i support lati and lando-t going to s

celebi down slowking up mienshao up too (great lo and scarf sets)

however jirachi isn't rank s material, offensive sets cant switch into latis and special attackers bar alakazam (and it still hurts) and the sdef sets are garbage because it means your opponent gets free spikes and thats not good in a metagame dominated by them

ferro and skarm should go up to A1, and mew should probably be there too, either there or A2

volc is stupidly broken as well and i think its rank is currently good. it has a lot of possible items and moves to use that make playing against it a prediction fest if you don't pack the scarf chomp / terrak or tran (who dies to hp ground or water in the rain)

and i won't discuss it too much but besides 3 or 4 all the pokémon in C Rank are garbage and shouldn't be used in serious tournament battles
 
What's with this alpha beta stuff? oo

Anyway I think latios and rachi should go to S rank and Ferrothorn and Starmie should move up to Aα. Rachi is simply the most diverse pokemon in BW imo, and all of its sets can be potentially deadly depending on the team. Scarf rachi is a staple on a lot of offense, but also the subCM set can solo teams with proper support and spdef rachi is one of the best latios checks. Also being able to paralyze anything that comes in on it 60% of the time (or 42% of the time depending on the circumstances) is great, and the whack sets with any combination of tbolt, icy wind, iron head, energy ball, and a fire move can be really difficult to play ~_~

Ferrothorn like walls every mon on rain teams half of the time and is also a strong latios check (the only reliable counter to latios under rain), on top of being a great spike-setter and never dying in BW :')

Starmie's the best spinner and analytic starmie tends to shred through rain and sand with ease. Its only issue is that it can be trapped by pursuit, but it's really hard to tank hits from starmie in general. Also, another starmie set I like is colbur grass knot which can cover up its flaws well but also has far less power. Sand teams have difficulty standing up to that set, though :P

Finally, Jynx, Smeargle, Bronzong, and Raikou should be moved from D to C. And then the D-rank should be deleted imo (what is the purpose of it?)
 
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Since mons are classified by their effectiveness and not alphabetical order in each rank, S Rank would imo looks like :

-
because it is seriously the best mon in the meta currently and doesnt need much support to get rid of its most used checks (Latis, Jellicent) and somehow forced some people to use Amoonguss, an RU mons, to counter it effectively.
-
because it is versatile, can do whatever you want to support your team or to destroy specific archetype (esp offensive mixed variant).
-
for what BKC described.
-
because it is always good.
-
too.

I think these are the top BW threats.

A1 would be imo :

-
because it is a great mon fitting every playstyle with different set, I dont feel like it is as good as the other S Ranked Top A1 is cool
-
because it is fast it hits hard and you have to hit it twice, which isnt easy at all
-
because sleep is broken, it can 1v1 a lot of annoying mons (Jelli, Gastro and Ferro) too bad it suffers a bit Amoonguss popularity to counter Keldeo
-
because it is the best Spiker in the metagame, checks half the meta

Maybe
or
could join them, they are both great mons.

should def drop, because yes rain sucks, maybe not D Rank but maybe Top A2 is enough, something like
/
/
at the top of A2 rank.

Also agree on moving up
, scarf is awesome.

is less good than it was some months ago, might consider dropping it.
 
- Support Volcarona to A4 (or lower)

Volc is garbage. It requires a ton of support to even use yet it still gets beaten by the best Scarfer in the tier (Garchomp), the best support mon (Tyranitar), one of the best priority moves (Dragonite's Extreme Speed), and its lack of universal coverage means it always loses to some common mon (usually Heatran). It sets up on virtually nothing because almost every Pokemon can severely damage it. You don't have to outright OHKO it because you'll always have a way of removing the rest of its health (Sand, status, priority, one of the many mons who can take a +1 move). It's not like you get many chances to bring it in anyway since it can't switch in against 95% of the tier. Sometimes the defending mon will have to sacrifice itself to prevent it from sweeping but a 1v1 trade is great when the opponent loses the focal point of their team.

It also offers absolutely nothing beyond on that small threat of a sweep. It has no defensive purpose and even struggles to revenge things if Rocks are up. If you look through replays you'll see that for every Volc sweep there will be many more games where it does literally no damage at all. The only reason it ever does get those 6-0s is because people will occasionally opt to run multiple checks to actual broken mons like Garchomp and Latios rather than use up one slot on countering the moth.

- Support Jirachi to S for reasons stated here.

I urge people to use the bulky offense set (max HP, 263+ Speed, etc.) on offensive teams if you want a Dragon/Alakazam/Tornadus counter who isn't that Spikes weak. It can easily afford to use at least one of Thunder(bolt) or HP Fire/Fire Punch and still be bulky enough not to mind taking Draco Meteors.

- Also support Latios to S, Ferro to A1, Celebi to B(+), and Gastrodon and Amoonguss moving to a rank far higher than what they're currently in. Don't really agree with Lando-T moving to S but that's a pretty borderline case. Mamoswine should probably drop a little bit.

I think the problem with C rank is perception. C rank is only the 10th tier here but because it's usually the 8th then it makes the mons in this one seem higher than they actually are. We should either cut down on the number of ranks above C or just merge C and D and put every somewhat viable Pokemon there. There's also the option of cutting C rank down a lot and making it more exclusive (no Espeon or Darmanitan pls) but there might not be enough difference in quality between the mons to make it worthwhile.
 
Anyone who thinks volc is bad is the same dude who's running balloon tran / scarf chomp / psych up zam / blissey on the one squad. Top Aβ.

Jirachi and Latios should both remain Aα. Not S rank for sure.

Starmie and Ferro should be lower in Aβ. Not all they are cracked up to be.
 



I would like to discuss sun in the current meta. I think its clear to say currently that sun is more than just a gimmick and has an actual impact in the current meta. Cresselia in sun essentially walls like 90% of the meta, from walling 2/3rds of the s rank and a majority of the a's. Not only that but the current meta is p under prepared for dugtrio as hippowdon now has essentially never used compared to tyranitar for sand. Furthermore sun breakers such as victini, heatran, and darmanitan completely eviscerate a majority of the pokemon in the meta with sun up. Also tho rain is still a relative problem for sun it isnt really a 90-10 in rain's favor as it cud be without venu protection depending on the toeds set. Bulky toed can be completely eliminated by trapper tran and scarftoed can be taken advantage by duggy, ninetales, and cresselia. With that being said i propose a raise in ninetales viability up to atleast b-, b cud be also be nice. Cresselia should also be raised to b- or b because of said viability. I also propose darm to b- just cuz it can actually break alot of teams if given the chance to do so. Especially considering the updated conflict sun stall has been wrecking in many tournaments for example when used by bluri in wcop and cresselia essentially walled the opponent's team 100% lol. Other concepts that ive seen in sun that i found very interesting, specs tran, the bulky sub dd dnite, trapperzor, hp fire gastrodon, hp fire starmie (both without water stab) and many more. Also sun gained a decent spinner in the form of exca along continuing the theme of anti sand that current sun has came to be. In conclusion Sun definitely is not a gimmick and can be very effect anti-meta style that is very unpredictable in its sets, and thus ninetales, cresselia shud gain the recognition in viability that they deserve. Also ninetales isnt as deadweight as people give it credit it is surprisingly bulky, and it can be very annoying by spreading burns or the fantastic protect disable set that tokyo tom came up with.

tldr: sun is cool and ninetales shud go up in viability.

----> from c to b- or b
----> from c to b- or b
----> c to b- (i know i have bias on this but i really do think it is seperated from victini for being stronger and in imo a more effective scarfer though i can concede it can still be c)
 

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Breloom from the highest A to one rank lower.

If you look at the top of A rank, one could argue that it's closer to an extension of S rank than it is simply a slightly better grouping than the mid-high A rank Pokemon. Let me dissect the grouping just to prove this point:

Jirachi is given shit by a lot of people because some say it doesn't do much, but really it's one of the most 'viable' Pokemon out there. It saw 33% usage this season of ST, so far, and 37% last season, which says a lot as is, but I will go beyond just the fact that it gets a lot of use and explain why it's actually useful on the teams that elect to use it. Jirachi can use a plethora of sets - scarf, mixed SR, mixed lefties/EB, SDef, sub CM, CM wish, sub tox, etc. -- while none of these sets are even borderline "broken" or incredibly threatening, which is why people like me hold back from calling Jirachi S rank, they're all fairly good and collectively, they make Jirachi a comfortable fit on many teams and a versatile Pokemon to face and use. Often times, I slap Jirachi on thanks to sheer convenience - it can work as a check to Latis, Alakazam, Reuniclus, and a fair amount of other Pokemon...it can fulfill plenty of roles, so if you need a scarf, a SR setter, a lure, or a specially defensive pivot then you can use it and that's not to mention the fact that on Rain it runs CM sets that many teams are flat out unprepared for due to poor prep for it on a lot of bulky offensive and balanced builds. Overall, Jirachi is one of the best Pokemon in the tier when looked at as a whole and there really shouldn't be any questions as to why it's atop A rank.

Alakazam is seen as the premier cleaner on the generic sand spikes build that pretty much is seen as "standard" in the modern day. It's hard to check with confidence unless you pack one of a handful of Pokemon (SDef Jirachi and bulky Scizor being the first two that come to mind, but I suppose Chople Tar, the rare Sableye, bulky Slowking, and a handful of others can work). Honestly, Sash Alakazam is so unique in the scheme of things because it poses that consistent threat to teams and given that every major check to it is Spike bait for the most part, it's hard to work around Alakazam without breaking a sweat and perhaps becoming very vulnerable. I guess some people are also starting to use LO Zam ever since BW Cup finals where it did well (I think MDragon used it, but I'm not positive on that) and I've seen it a handful of times since, but that's not the main argument for Alakazam being so solid and worthy of being ranked near the top of A. The argument is with the sash set and how threatening it is given the context of the metagame and teams it finds itself on. Although I don't find Alakazam to be as useful or consistent as something like Jirachi, I find the added threat that it possesses to make it comfortably fit into the highest A rank.

Landorus-T is one of the best Pokemon out there right now and this shouldn't really be put in question by anyone. It has seen 34-35% usage in the last two seasons of ST and that's because it is incredibly useful. The Scarf set is quick enough to revenge kill almost anything that isn't at +2 speed or a faster scarf, the bulky set is a great defensive pivot that provides SR, and the double dance set is actually underrated, imo, but it requires support. Intimidate is so big as it weakens all the physical attackers that LandoT often pivots into and it allows LandoT to pose as a soft offensive check to Terrakion, Tyranitar, Scizor, Garchomp, etc. Scarf LandoT and Scarf Chomp are slapped onto the teams of a majority of BW players a fair amount of the time and that's because both are so good, but to hone in on LandoT, it is immune to ground, resists fighting, can control momentum, cripple Glisc/LandoT/Chomp w a well timed HP Ice, and it's strong w STAB EQ as well. It's just so good and so convenient, to sum it up. I think LandoT is among the top 5-7 Pokemon in the tier and it, without a doubt, belongs at the top of A.

Politoed is a pretty mediocre pokemon, but I think the fact that it is mandatory on every rain team and actually adapted into making some use of that role warrants it being a staple in the top of A as long as rain is as strong an option as it is right now (a lot of people say Rain is mediocre, but I find it to be fairly good right now, even if it's nowhere near as consistent/fall-back as Sand, it definitely can be used reliably. Politoed in itself is an ok last-ditch scarfer on rain, but the trendy sets are the offensive sets like Water gem, RestoChesto, Sitrus, etc. and Specs, imo, while defensive variants have always been ok on fatter builds. Overall, I just think the fact that Politoed has Drizzle makes it earn this spot, but I guess the argument more is "how viable is rain" and that really varies because many people frequent rain while some hardly use it. I just find it hard to move it any lower given the fundamental, necessary role it plays.

Latios is also at the top of A rank and any argument for it to go any lower is pretty laughable. Offensively, it's hard to actually counter and a majority of the "counterplay' is pretty much trapping it w/ Tyranitar. I personally use Draco/Surf/HP Fire/Roost on LO Latios the most and it really only struggles if it faces a healthy SDef Jirachi, Chansey, or, of course, Tyranitar, who limits it in general and makes Latios a very 1-and-done type pokemon, if even that, because a healthy Tar can switch-in to Latios. Psyshock on the LO variant is more common than what I use, but all that really does is make you less reliant on Draco and more vulnerable to a handful of pokemon depending on if you use Surf or HP Fire as the last move and then a lot of people use Specs, which hits like a truck. Defensively, Latios can work as a water resist, Keld check, electric resist, etc., so it's super convenient to use, as well. Latios is one of the most common pokemon (27% in tour 21 and 29% in tour 22) and it's a psuedo-staple on a lot of standard builds, so it being ranked here shouldn't be any surprise and shouldn't be questioned, either.

All of the above pokemon are either among the most (practically) threatening pokemon in the tier (Latios, Alakazam, and even Lando-T), the most useful pokemon in the tier (Jirachi and LandoT), or Politoed, which is a bit of a unique case, but I touched on it when I explained it. With all due respect to Breloom, I don't think it fits in with this group.

Breloom is incredibly threatening as it gets a Spore off w/ BW sleep mechanics and it does a fuckton of damage, but it's nowhere near as easy to use or as prevalent as any of these. It has seen roughly 15% usage in SR 21/22, which is a fair amount, but if you look at SPL usage stats, which are admittedly a smaller sample size, it only sees 5% usage while LandoT is at 49%, Jirachi is at 26%, Latios is at 24%, Politoed is at 24%, and Alakazam is at 13%. I don't think this necessarily says Breloom, when being used, is not as good as we think it is, but I do think that it says that building a high level team with Breloom is challenging because it provides minimal defensive presence when using the Technician variants while the bulkier Poison Heal variants are a rarity.

I personally enjoy using TechniLoom - hell, I even used it on a recent team that I used in SmogTour and BWLT playoffs...my favorite variant is LO w/ Spore, Mach, BSeed, and FocusPunch or Superpower - but the lack of defensive presence and lack of defined role it would play on a team strains teambuilding. Breloom's incredibly annoying to play around because you have to fodder a pokemon to sleep and then it puts a dent into another pokemon, but it often struggles to get in multiple times over the course of a game. The thing is that TechniLoom often barely only gets in once against offense, if even that, so it's limited there and its primary function is to be a bit of a breaker to bulky-o/balanced, when it can find its way in on a slower pokemon often enough, that lacks Amoonguss. One could argue that Hydreigon and KyuB also function as breakers of those type of teams that struggle against offense, but I think Loom is still a sub-rank above them solely because it provides sleep and priority can be useful, even if it's otherwise slower and much frailer than those two. The overall comparison of Breloom to Hydre and KyuB isn't the greatest because they're totally different pokemon in just about every regard, but the practical application and strengths parallel to a great extent, which is why I use it. The fact of the matter is that Breloom simply isn't as dominant as any of the top A rank threats, due to all of the practical shortcomings it has, and belongs in the tier just below them.

Volcarona from the second highest A to one rank lower.

I mean Volc is still one proper moveset and one rapid spin away from sweeping a fair amount of teams, but I feel like it's trending downward for a few reasons. First and foremost, Scarf Chomp is at its peak. People like BKC use it on practically every team and even people like myself, who tend to favor Scarf LandoT, have been using Scarf Chomp more and more as of late. In addition to this, the massive support Volcarona requires becomes less and less appealing to players as the tier hits a point of semi-stagnation, in my opinion, because we don't want to be tied down with a spinner, some means of assuring that spinblocking isn't easy or hazard setting in the first place isn't as easy as normal, and we don't want to be tied down to essentially having a predetermined win condition such a significant portion of the time in a game where there are so many variables and circumstances that arise. Volcarona is not very useful when it isn't sweeping and it can even be seen as a liability due to the hazard vulnerability. Volcarona still is an incredibly unique pokemon and the threat it poses with a QD against an unprepared team - it's pretty much lights out - is something that made me contemplate if proposing this was worthwhile because Volc can be so damn good, but really I just find it to be so demanding of support and inconvenient in the context of the tier that it should drop. Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Starmie, Scizor, Heatran, and, to a lesser extent, Reuniclus all are consistent pokemon that find their ways onto many teams with distinguished roles and all of them can be grouped into the top 15-20 pokemon that are often used and important to teams' functions. Volc, on the contrary, is a do-or-die type pokemon that can be deadweight or it can win the game and I feel like as more time passes, the upside isn't as appealing and it should fall down a bit into a grouping of less reliable pokemon.

Latias from the third highest A to one rank lower.

Latias is a good pokemon, don't get me wrong, but I hardy ever see it in anymore. I feel like with generation 6 developing into a tier where Latios sees all the primary uses as an attacker and mega Latias seeing the defensive use, BW has split up similarly. Before, the tank Latias at least saw use every now and then, but now it's non-existent, in my eyes, and the bulkier variants are all that come into play. With all due respect to them, the amount of time bulky Latias finds its way onto teams is fairly small and it just doesn't occupy much practical use at the time being because of that. I can easily build myself a team with Latias and it can be a successful member, but it just doesn't happen very often because bulkier builds with a passive CM or support Latias aren't trending at all right now while more offensive builds that want an attacker that can check Keld/waters/electrics all use Latios. I guess time simply isn't treating Latias well and I believe it should drop from a sub-rank as its current rank has two of the better breakers in the tier, the best spinblocker, and a solid attacker, in Terrakion, while the subrank below it is filled with more situational, sporadically used pokemon and that's where Latias fits best.

Amoonguss from the lowest A to one rank higher.

I rarely ever used Amoonguss until like 6 months ago, but the more and more I used it and find it fitting into my bulky-offensive/balanced builds, the better I see it as an effective sponge and defensive support member. It provides sleep, which is incredibly valuable in the tier given BW mechanics, and it can check Keldeo, Politoed, Rotom-W, Breloom, etc. I mean currently, it's ranked w/ Celebi, who lacks much of a purpose whenever it's used bar the periodic BP or NP variant, Gengar, who is a threatening pokemon that never finds its way onto teams, Hippowdon, who isn't used much at all anymore simply due to it being sorta slow and passive, Mew, who I actually like a lot and will refrain from commenting on because I think it might also warrant a rise in the future, and Gastrodon, who is a solid pokemon, but doesn't really find its way onto many teams due to there being plenty of options above it that fulfill parts of its role that end up being all that are needed on specific teams. Amoonguss is one of the only defensive breloom and keldeo checks and it also has a solid defensive typing w/ Regen and the ability to sleep things, so, imo, it has enough going for it to push it up a notch. Not really too strong on this one, tho, because a lot of people overlook Amoonguss and it only fits onto a limited amount of teams.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Gonna leave some opinions to spark up some discussion again:

Aα -> Aβ : Agree

Breloom is undoubtably one of the hardest mons to switch into rn due to sleep + its amazing offensive coverage and power that limits the amount of checks/counters that could switch into it. However, I feel that the rise of new threats to it such as Amoonguss and Celebi hurt its viability to break teams as easily as it could have before. The rise of more offensive teams (mainly sand and rain ones) also do not help Loom as it just cannot keep up with the majority of offensive threats in the meta, which in turn lowers its utility a bit (although its still amazing at breaking down defensive teams.

Aα -> S: Agree

I still don't understand why this has not happened yet already lol. Jirachi is the epitome of versatility due to the multitude of sets it can run (and are all equally amazing in viability) and its ability to be splashed on so many teams and always pull its weight. Jirachi is able to check a majority of threatening mons rn including Sash Alakazam, Latios, Reuniclus (to a point), Tornadus, Celebi, etc.. with its incredible defensive typing. The fact that scouting Rachi could be incredibly difficult due to its ubiquity of sets and roles on teams allow it to become so deadly since playing around it could be quite difficult. It really defines the meta enough to be put on par with Chomp, Keld and Ttar imo.

Aα -> S: Agree

I feel Specs Latios is the best wallbreaker in the meta rn bar Specs Keld in Rain due to Dragon/Psychic being so hard to switchin to unless you are a Steel type. It also pertains a diverse movepool that allows it to lure in checks that could normally handle it such as Surf for Ttar and Earthquake for Heatran/Jirachi. It also has a good defensive typing as well that allows it to check the ever so powerful Keldeo and be immune to Ground which is so important in this meta rn. Pursuit Tyranitar is an annoyance to it and could deal with it pretty oftenly, however I still feel that Latios could still dent a majority of teams with ease, and as such should rise to S due to its unparalleled wallbreaking prowess.

Aβ -> Lower (did not say specifically): Disagree

Reuniclus is just too good of a wincon for it to not be lowered below Abeta. Reuniclus could become so hard to beat even after one CM boost due to Magic Guard allowing it to ommit damage from hazards, status, and weather conditions which are all heavily common in BW OU. This is very important as Reuniclus also pertains the right amount of bulk that allows it to not get 2HKOed by a majority of strong attacks, which in turn facilitates it's ability to setup, especially when placed on Sand spike teams.

Don't have opinions on rest of noms, also feel Goth could also rise but cant think of amazing arguments rn.

 

FNH

F is for Finchi, N is for Nator, H is for Hater
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I think this is a dead thread right now so I'll post even though Jirachee wont even read it lmao.

Alot of people have been making a argument for Jirachi and i think I'll join the argument. Jirachi in some sense is a mini Garchomp insofar that he isn't necessary overpowered in sense that we deem to define overpowered which is having one or two sets that are nigh impossible to wall, but he has the precarious ability to create a set to fulfill any roll, and he also has the gorgeous typing to help fulfill the roles the builder deems him to carry out. Garchomp has received S for being hard to wall, due to his amazing typing and large move pool with the stats to carry them out, but also for his versatility. Jirachi has a greater set versatility, though inferior to Garchomp in his ability to wreck havoc on every team. On top of this, it seems odd that a pokemon wouldn't be a top ranked pokemon when every team runs a ground type to exclusively wall and faint him. Even with that fact alone it would seem he is deemed to be at the top, but yet sits below S.

Breloom should also be allowed to chill with the S rank. He has amazing typing and two great abilities and a killer attack stat. These combined with spore make him good enough to compete with Keldeo for a spot on teams as a fighting type, steel breaking bad ass. Which compels me to make argument that if he can compete and beat Keldeo for the same role on a team, then shouldn't he be ranked at the same or higher level then him?

Mienshao should be swapping places with Lucario on this list. Although he may not have Lucario's move pool he does carry a better attack and speed and regenerator makes him a deadly u-turner that doesn't give a fuck about spikes. Mienshao does have access to reckless to although it does seem inferior to regenerator. Unless I missed something Lucario doesn't seem like hot property, not has he seemed to be for a while, yet Mienshao seems fulfill more roles on teams, and more easily fit into teams. A counter argument could be made that Lucario is better in the fact that he has managed to be used 5 more(30 times in total) times then Mienshao(25 times in total) in ST, but his win rate is 36% compared Mienshao's 48%, although I am not convinced that either's ST's stats say anything at all. But in truth Lucario is trash, he is to slow to do much, and to frail to set up on much. But Mienshao has been finding niches on teams.

Mew should get a bumped up to the next level of A. Although he really has one set in the tier (others have been creative with his perfect movepool) the stallbreaker Mew set is a big threat to balance and bulky builds, and can basically shuts down stall single handedly, not mention a pain for offense builds to try to break through. He is to much of threat to a numerous amounts of builds to be sitting with pokemon that are good but not a threat good( save Gengar).

Shaymin doesn't deserve C. Shaymin would find a nice spot above Sharpedo in the B ranking group. He lays claim to having every base stat as one hundred allowing for good bulk and attack strength. He even has access to signature move, seed flare. Seed Flare combined with a hidden power ( Ice or Fire) and earth power allows Shaymin play the role of anti sand balance. His move pool isn't superb, and grass typing one of the worse a pokemon can acquire; his bread and butter set does allow him to play a threatening role, meriting him a higher place on these rankings.

I can see the C rank as being defined by mons that are inferior to others similar to them and don't have a defined role on many teams but if used right can create a niche for themselves and fulfill the role with out huge complications, . I want to define D rank as mons used by Sugarhigh for funz but mons that might have maybe a niche and even then are completely inferior to other ones in this niche or role. Nidoqueen Cresselia, and Empoleon have no true rules or niches and need to be the first to enter the D rank. Cresselia only find a niche on the sun stall team, but that build is really dead in truth except sugarhigh who runs it. Empoleon has no real role in the tier, making underserving of the C rank. Nidoqueen or Nidoking can run mixed attacker set( I know Shoka it once) but they really aren't that good, due to subpar stats. Zapdos should be added to rankings in the D rank, and maybe even get a shot at C if people use him corre

Tangrowth should be on this list in the C rank. He defensive tank set can be used over Amoongus due incredibly better defense stat, and he has a niche role that he can perform well on teams which allows him to skip the D rank. He does carry regenerator too making his healing very easy, via the switch. All this put together he forms a formidable defensive wall.

EDIT: Latios defiantly needs S rank
 
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Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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Latios to S Rank:
This is probably from what I've seen one of the most wanted changes in the viability rankings. Latios is probably one of the greatest Pokemon in the tier thanks to it's high speeds and SpA. The thing it is most favorite thing it's famous for is dropping Draco Meteors on your heads, and OHKOs or 2HKOs almost everything. Now, when talking about Latios moving to S rank, most people bring up Tyranitar as a rebuttal, as it's a complete hard counter. However, this can only be said thanks to the SpDef boost that it gets from it's sand, lowering the damage from Draco Meteor. Then, the Tyranitar Pursuit traps it. However, Latios can and will run Surf for it, which can be shown to do this: 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 179-213 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Not only is this extra damage to get onto Tyranitar, the pursuit damage is unbelievable, if it's Choice Scarf. 252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage. Mind you, this is damage from Choice Scarf, and if it isn't, you simply out speed the other sets and kill it, so Tyranitar is out of the question in healthy situations, however if Latios is weakened then yes, Tyranitar is a valid argument to bring up. However, all Pokemon have their checks and counters, just like Garchomp, Keldeo, and others in the S and A ranks. But, it's also worth noting the SpA drop from the Draco Meteor, so it's not like it can stay in forever. But Draco Meteor isn't the only stab it has. It's also got Psychic stab, either from Psyshock or Psychic. It even gets recovery, allowing you to chose between Roost and Recover; Use which ever you like. Adding those elements on to my argument, it becomes even more clear why Latios should be S rank.

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Garchomp to S+ rank:
Garchomp, from what people say, is the best Pokemon in the Black 2 and White 2 OU metagame. It not only has the trolliest speed tier, by out speeding base 100 speed Pokemon with base 102 speed. This makes room for some nasty match ups, where if Garchomp was base 99, the match up would be in the opponent's favor. But that's not what makes Garchomp really great. One of the things that puts it in S rank currently is it's versatility in move sets, from having the more popular Life Orb variant to having a tank variant. In between, you have sets like SR lead, and Choice Band, which could lead to some nasty tricks against the opponent. While it's a bit of a stretch to want it to have it's own ranking, there is still way more about this Pokemon that makes it great, one of those ways being it's move pool. At first, looking shallow, Garchomp has all the coverage it needs, from it's two stabs to Poison. It even has access to Iron Head and Fire Blast, which can and will easily trick the opponent. It can also run Stone Edge, so you are guaranteed getting rid of that Volcarona. What beats it? There's hardly anything. Obviously, it may have a hard time with it's weaknesses that out speed it, such as Latios and Weavile, but doesn't every Pokemon? That's why I believe Garchomp should have it's own ranking tier in terms of viability.
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Jirachi to S rank:
There is plenty of things about this Pokemon that deserve to make it S rank. I can say from experience, that it's a Pokemon that probably should be removed from the meta, mainly because of it's Choice Scarf set. Not only does it out speed every non-scarfer in the meta, most of the things that run Choice Scarf doesn't even out speed it, because they are particularly less than base 100. However, this doesn't leave out all Pokemon over base 100 speed, examples being the rare Choice Scarf Garchomp. This doesn't hinder Jirachi at all, however, thanks to Jirachi's extreme hax. Now I know you're all triggered right now, but let me explain. Iron Head has a 60% chance to flinch, but somehow it flinches 80% of the time (I don't know don't ask me). That's crazy on it's own, being able to flinch almost everything in the game thanks to it's Choice Scarf. But that's not as bad as it gets. It also learns Body Slam, which if you didn't know, has a 60% chance to paralyze with Serene Grace. Combine that with Iron Head, and you have a 85% chance of your opponent not moving, which is insane. However, you do lose out on the speed from Choice Scarf, but if you manage to paralyze, you'll be faster anyway. But that's only half of the story, hax isn't everything. But then again, there are a few more hax things that could happen, like the burn with Fire Punch, and Ancient Power boosts. However, these are still rare, sitting at 20%. "What else makes Jirachi so good? It can't just be hax." You're exactly correct, Jirachi still has a lot more to it. I want to look back at the Scarf set, with the fact that you out speed basically everything. Jirachi learns Healing Wish, a move that faints the user, but heals the incoming Pokemon up to 100%, clearing all status along the way. See where this is going? Being able to get this off almost all the time is great, so when in need, Jirachi can heal one of your crucial team members back up to full. It also has access to U-Turn, making it an extremely good pivot. It even can use Wish, Substitute, and Stealth Rocks, making a defensive set more than possible, with Jirachi's flexible stats. There's also a huge set of other moves it can use, ranging from Power-Up Punch to Meteor Mash. Jirachi is truly the hax Pokemon, which is why I think it should be S rank.
 
SPL is about to end, which means we get some new data, plus this thread has been a bit dead and I'm sad :c

Latios to S


2 years in a row of amazing winrate, and pretty much agreed upon by most people to be the most broken mon in the tier, means that this mon definitely deserves the S rank. Great speed, insanely powerful nuke, and a coverage that leaves it with almost no ways of competely countering it, access to instant recovery, are all traits that make Latios the powerhouse it is. Definitely a big reason Tyranitar has been #1 in usage for as long as it has, one of the few mons who can at least check it, and get rid of it in some cases.

Amoonguss to Aβ


Amoonguss is currently at its peak, because of its great redeeming qualities. It's one of the few mons who can completely stop Keldeo, and has access to Spore. It has some weaknesses against common powerful threats of the metagame like Latios and Alakazam, which is why I'm not placing it any higher, but it definitely deserves a spot among the likes of Skarmory and Ferrothorn.

Excadrill to Aδ


With Starmie's measly 30% winrate in both the last 2 SPLs, Excadrill finds itself as the best offensive spinner in the tier. It has 3 very good traits, it can make great use of all of them, thanks to Tyranitar's usage. It can act both as an offensive spinner with ability to trouble every Spiker in the metagame with Sand Force + Swords Dance, it can outspeed everything on opposing sand teams abusing their own weather, and it can spin no matter what thanks to its powerful Earthquake coupled with Mold Breaker. It's also a Steel type, although the fact that it's a Ground type oftentimes means stacking weaknesses with Landorus-T or Garchomp, which might make it hard to fit onto a lot of teams, which is the reason I wouldn't place it any higher.

I think these are the biggest changes I'd suggest personally, but there's also a couple other mons that could see some love, like Mamoswine (but I guess it's more of a niche mon than anything, which is why I didn't write a paragraph about it, I'm content with its current tiering), or other mons that almost disappeared from the meta for a good reason (Kyurem-B for example feels super weak to play compared to a couple years ago, or Scizor who feels a little too slow and having real issues against the abundance of Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Keldeo and Garchomp running around nowadays).
 
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Eo Ut Mortus

Elodin Smells
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This thread was a nice read for relearning BW, so I'm glad it was bumped.

I agree with all three of Luck's noms; Latios is especially way overdue. I could see Amoonguss in either or depending on how much you value sleep, because it's so useless afterwards and so susceptible to set-up. McMeghan's SubRachi play vs. dice was a really good example of how hard its passivity can be punished, and as much as I loathe to bring it up, my game vs. him is another example as well. People are also more and more prepared for sleep nowadays, coming with things such as Sleep Talk Latios, Tornadus, and even Amoonguss itself.

Reuniclus should drop to . Most of the common team archetypes check it without even trying, whether due to Tyranitar/Steel combos, double Steel-types, or the presence of multiple hard-hitting special attackers, most notably Latios. Even if you get lucky with your match-up, you probably have to hit at least two Focus Blasts minimum to pull off a sweep, and we all know how often that happens. On the other hand, if you're unlucky, you could end up instead facing Hydreigon, Slowking, two Steel-types, and Scope Lens Tyranitar, and you're essentially down a Pokemon until lategame since Reuniclus offers negligible offensive pressure on its own (unless you're OTR, who can't switch into these Pokemon and will rarely find time to set up). Jirachi rising and Ferrothorn falling in usage are the final nails in its coffin. It's funny how much worse Reuniclus has become since people called for its ban (twice!).

For similar reasons, Alakazam should drop a tier as well, to . I don't think it's Reuniclus-level bad; it's just that more people are prepared for it now. People are using Tyranitar sets that don't lose to it (in other words, not ScarfTar) as well as Jirachi.

Jirachi and Landorus-Therian should rise to S. Pretty much echoing what Ciele / BKC said, respectively. S is getting a little crowded, but their influence on the metagame is pretty noticeable, even if not as explosive as maybe Keldeo, Garchomp, or Latios.

Slowking should rise a tier or two (and Slowbro, too; no way is it below Quagsire and Metagross). Keldeo checks with Regenerator who aren't as useless as Amoonguss post-Sleep are always welcome in my book. Slowbro fills an additional role as a check to strong physical attackers such as Terrakion and Garchomp, and Slowking has a bunch of nice options for either offensive / defensive utility between Nasty Plot, Thunder Wave, Disable, and Dragon Tail.
 
I'll make a new thread as soon as I can. No greek letters though because I'm an ignoramus. For now:
Latios to S


2 years in a row of amazing winrate, and pretty much agreed upon by most people to be the most broken mon in the tier, means that this mon definitely deserves the S rank. Great speed, insanely powerful nuke, and a coverage that leaves it with almost no ways of competely countering it, access to instant recovery, are all traits that make Latios the powerhouse it is. Definitely a big reason Tyranitar has been #1 in usage for as long as it has, one of the few mons who can at least check it, and get rid of it in some cases.
This is definitely happening, seems to be quite agreed upon. It's also an amazing offensive sleep absorber against Breloom, Amoonguss, Tangrowth and even Hypnosis Politoed.
Amoonguss to Aβ


Amoonguss is currently at its peak, because of its great redeeming qualities. It's one of the few mons who can completely stop Keldeo, and has access to Spore. It has some weaknesses against common powerful threats of the metagame like Latios and Alakazam, which is why I'm not placing it any higher, but it definitely deserves a spot among the likes of Skarmory and Ferrothorn.
Yep, Amoonguss is amazing. Stun Spore screws with everything that isn't Gliscor, too, and its Hidden Powers aren't earth shakers but can certainly help out a lot. Plus it's also an excellent Sleep Talker against all common sleep users. TSpikes absorption is no joke either.

Excadrill to Aδ
With Starmie's measly 30% winrate in both the last 2 SPLs, Excadrill finds itself as the best offensive spinner in the tier. It has 3 very good traits, it can make great use of all of them, thanks to Tyranitar's usage. It can act both as an offensive spinner with ability to trouble every Spiker in the metagame with Sand Force + Swords Dance, it can outspeed everything on opposing sand teams abusing their own weather, and it can spin no matter what thanks to its powerful Earthquake coupled with Mold Breaker. It's also a Steel type, although the fact that it's a Ground type oftentimes means stacking weaknesses with Landorus-T or Garchomp, which might make it hard to fit onto a lot of teams, which is the reason I wouldn't place it any higher.
Yeah I'll move Exca up. I like dice's SpD set, SoulWind's SubToxic variant and Scarf Sand Force. Sand Rush SD on non-sand is also good obviously although the notion that it is anywhere near an auto-win against almost any competent sand team is ridiculous. All these sets need support obviously but I like em a lot.
I think these are the biggest changes I'd suggest personally, but there's also a couple other mons that could see some love, like Mamoswine (but I guess it's more of a niche mon than anything, which is why I didn't write a paragraph about it, I'm content with its current tiering), or other mons that almost disappeared from the meta for a good reason (Kyurem-B for example feels super weak to play compared to a couple years ago, or Scizor who feels a little too slow and having real issues against the abundance of Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Keldeo and Garchomp running around nowadays).
Mamo is incredible and I may move him up just a tad. We could discuss him more though. K-B is fine where it is but I'm not opposed to anyone bringing it up. Scizor, on the other hand, has definitely suffered, and I will go more in-depth in the new thread but I think I'm gonna drop him a bit.

I agree with all three of Luck's noms; Latios is especially way overdue. I could see Amoonguss in either or depending on how much you value sleep, because it's so useless afterwards and so susceptible to set-up. McMeghan's SubRachi play vs. dice was a really good example of how hard its passivity can be punished, and as much as I loathe to bring it up, my game vs. him is another example as well. People are also more and more prepared for sleep nowadays, coming with things such as Sleep Talk Latios, Tornadus, and even Amoonguss itself.
Sub Pokes can definitely throw a wrench in Amoonguss' plans but I disagree with the notion that it's useless or susceptible to setup. Anything that stuffs Keldeo over and over has some use, especially when you dumpster something with sleep and have the option of paralysis afterwards (and this can also completely ruin a would-be ST Lati/Torn). Paralyzing your opponent's Skarmory is not to be taken lightly. The correct Hidden Power can also cause trouble. I'm not saying it's an offensive juggernaut but I also don't consider it to be a useless blob.
Reuniclus should drop to . Most of the common team archetypes check it without even trying, whether due to Tyranitar/Steel combos, double Steel-types, or the presence of multiple hard-hitting special attackers, most notably Latios. Even if you get lucky with your match-up, you probably have to hit at least two Focus Blasts minimum to pull off a sweep, and we all know how often that happens. On the other hand, if you're unlucky, you could end up instead facing Hydreigon, Slowking, two Steel-types, and Scope Lens Tyranitar, and you're essentially down a Pokemon until lategame since Reuniclus offers negligible offensive pressure on its own (unless you're OTR, who can't switch into these Pokemon and will rarely find time to set up). Jirachi rising and Ferrothorn falling in usage are the final nails in its coffin. It's funny how much worse Reuniclus has become since people called for its ban (twice!).
Yep, definitely agreed, it'll drop. Haven't really noticed a fall in Ferrothorn usage though. Actually I think the fact it more commonly runs Thunder Wave and Knock Off these days makes Reun's life even harder.
For similar reasons, Alakazam should drop a tier as well, to . I don't think it's Reuniclus-level bad; it's just that more people are prepared for it now. People are using Tyranitar sets that don't lose to it (in other words, not ScarfTar) as well as Jirachi.
Ehhh dropping Zam is heresy to me. CB Tar loses to Zam too and he's very popular. Jirachi is great and certainly helps but I don't think it stops Zam from being one of the most definitive threats in the tier. Zam is also hurt by RH Chomp dropping (which makes the U-turning Scarfers, Landorus and Mienshao (the latter even has Regenerator!) great against it) and ScarfChomp rising thanks to Dual Chop, but despite this it is still one of the most terrifying things you can face in just about any matchup. Its movepool certainly helps it in this regard as well. I'm opposed to dropping Zam for now but would like to hear more.
Jirachi and Landorus-Therian should rise to S. Pretty much echoing what Ciele / BKC said, respectively. S is getting a little crowded, but their influence on the metagame is pretty noticeable, even if not as explosive as maybe Keldeo, Garchomp, or Latios.
There has been some opposition to Lando so as much as I firmly believe it should be there, I will hold off until others chime in. I think I will add Jirachi though (some last-minute support would be nice because I don't feel about it as strongly).
Slowking should rise a tier or two (and Slowbro, too; no way is it below Quagsire and Metagross). Keldeo checks with Regenerator who aren't as useless as Amoonguss post-Sleep are always welcome in my book. Slowbro fills an additional role as a check to strong physical attackers such as Terrakion and Garchomp, and Slowking has a bunch of nice options for either offensive / defensive utility between Nasty Plot, Thunder Wave, Disable, and Dragon Tail.
Slowking will absolutely rise, he's amazing. Bro will too.

Keep posting in this thread until the new one goes up (duh), shouldn't be more than a couple days.[/quote]
 
I think Latias needs to drop a bit, in favour of Mew and Gastrodon rising to Latias' current tier (or however you want to reorganize this, they should definitely be higher than Latias), the reasoning being that Latias' only perk over Latios is a little more bulk (which almost never comes into play really, while the lack of firepower is very noticeable), and her access to Healing Wish. Back in the days it was a decent Calm Minder, but it doesn't really work nowadays, at least in my experience. Mew and Gastrodon on the other hand have very nice utility on multiple kind of teams, and Mew has some versatility as well in its moveset (although tauntwisp is the standard).
 
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