CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 12 - Flavor Ability Discussion

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I really like the support behind Forewarn, but only because of Prophetic Dream implying that Pajantom's still asleep. Other than that, I'd prefer No Flavor Ability above anything else.
 
So, I'd just like to briefly offer a counterargument(s) to the idea that Comatose is an ability that defines a mon because "ermagherd sleep", and because of that we should just go NFA.

First of all, I can see the concern over "Well then some Pajantom are asleep and some aren't if we give it another ability, right?". To this, let's talk about Musharna. It is the Drowsing Pokémon and is shown sleeping in all its incarnations (barring like, one episode of the BW anime where it opens its eyes during an attack, but that's anime so bleh). It's primary ability ties in very nicely to this sleep theme, being Forewarn, which as has already been noted in this thread in Japanese means Prophetic Dream. Yet, it also comes packed with two other non-sleep related abilities in Telepathy and Synchronize. Yet, still, Musharna are shown to be asleep basically all the time regardless of the ability. So, this would be my primary challenge to the idea of sleep being a defining characteristic of a Pokémon, preventing it from having any other flavorful abilities.

But Okamuuuu, this is Comatose, not just sleeping! The correlation is way stronger between Pajantom and sleep than Musharna?!

Ok, good point. Let's talk about that. Ignoring the fact that Musharna has a strong plot correlation to dreams and sleep via Fennel's Lab, why don't we turn to movepool to look for more flavor? Musharna learns Hypnosis by level up and Dream Eater via TM. In addition, it can carry over from its pre-evo Yawn, Nightmare, and Dream Eater (Level up this time). The movepool reflects a stronger association with sleep than Pajantom, which currently only gets Dream eater [Yes, I'm aware that it wasn't allowed to have sleep moves, but that isn't a justification for why the movepool shouldn't have an impact on flavor]. In fact, when we do look at the movepool, I would argue that Toxic Spikes and Poison Fang give it just as strong a correlation to sleep as to poison! Based on this I still see little reason to make such a strong assumption about sleep dominating a Pokémon's character.

But Okamuuuu, that's just sleep in general, not Comatose. We're here to talk about Comatose!

Ok, fair point again, but at this point I'd argue you're relying on an argument that has been shown time and time again to be subverted by GameFreak: the idea that a signature ability or move will retain its signature status forever. Now, I can understand why people would be concerned about being too overbearing on this CAP due to already using multiple signature moves and a signature ability. That is a completely valid point that I honestly don't have a response to, so if that's your reasoning, I'm fine with that. However, should your reasoning be more along the lines of "Well, Komala only has one ability, so therefore we should only have one ability," let's talk. First off, that thinking uses one data point to argue for doing something on precedent. A precedent of one is not a precedent. It's a data point. For those familiar with the sciences or statistics, you can't draw a trendline based off only one data point.

Now, if one were to argue that there isn't an equal 'precedent' for the opposing side, you'd have a bit more weight. But since I'm addressing that point, you can probably assume I have a counterexample. You would be correct. In Generation 3, the only Pokémon to have Rough Skin were Carvanha and Sharpedo. They had no other abilities either, since they lack a secondary ability and Hidden Abilities would not exist until Gen 5. Based on this, one could reasonably make the same argument that we're having here of a signature ability on a Pokémon with no other abilities shouldn't be given to another Pokémon without giving them no other abilities. Yet, I would wager that many of us are familiar with Rough Skin Garchomp, which came about in Gen 5 as a Hidden ability to supplement Sand Veil. Not good enough? Ok, then you can also turn to Gen 5's Druddigon, which got Rough Skin as a primary ability alongside a second ability of Sheer Force and a HA of Mold Breaker. Still not convinced? Then you could also look at Wobbuffett and Wynaut, which had Shadow Tag all to themselves with no other ability until Gen 5 when the Gothita line picked it up, and again in Gen 6 with Mega Gengar. [Side Note: Yes, I'm aware that this is reliant on Gen 5 as the transition generation, which is iffy because it introduced Hidden Abilities into the works and also greatly expanded the number of Pokémon. That's a good argument, and if someone wants to expand on that in a response, I'd be glad to hear it! I actually don't have a response to that right now though.]

So, uh, yeah. This isn't meant to hate on people who support NFA, I even mentioned reasoning I agree with for supporting it, but I just felt that some of the reasons that were brought up went against things we've already seen subverted in the games.

TLDR: Sleeping isn't necessarily some magical flavor-locking characteristic and we shouldn't say that 'because Komala' we can't do something (especially on a project where we've already kissed respect for signatures long goodbye xP ).
 
Dovetailing off of Okamu 's reasoning, I'd like to remind that Pajantom gets Rest in its movepool. A move which Komala doesn't get, and a Pajantom with NFA would never be able to use. I don't mention this to detract from the justification that could be made for NFA either, just to say that in terms of flavor justifications, a pokemon with Rest in its movepool not being able to have another ability than Comatose makes a lot less sense to me than the opposite, Pajantom's official art being pictured as asleep because it's capable of using a move that puts it to sleep. Although because of this I do still think sleep-preventing abilities(Insomnia, Vital Spirit, Sweet Veil) are a little clunky on this CAP.
 
Even Levitate has an example of a mon with other ability options, so I don't think Comatose automatically excludes other abilities.
 

Reiga

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The only Pokemon who get Levitate and another ability are the Bronzong line and Duskull. Duskull only comes from the fact that only it in its line gets Levitate and they likely didn't want its evolutions to not get HAs just because the prevo has Levitate. And while I have nothing to explain Bronzong, they're still only 3 Pokemon out of the whopping 35 Levitate users we have, and a clear minority and not something of a model for how these abilities work.

Comatose is an overwhelming trait, like Levitate. I can still get behind something like Forewarn since it still means Pajantom is asleep, but something like Unnerve or Telepathy tick me off because they shelve away the central aspect of Pajantom of being asleep and that fact of being asleep affecting how it fights for more mundane aspects of its character like how scary it is.

And about Rest, that just had to get in because of the allowances and dissallowances of the movepool phase. It won't work with only Comatose, but its not like Pokemon is no stranger to particularly useless traits, such as Levitate Rotom-F, Attract Cryogonal, Synchronoise Umbreon and Final Gambit Shedinja. Besides its kinda funny.
 
From the previously seen ideas, I like Forewarn and Rattled the most. I can´t contribute with an idea of my own because I´m pretty new to the flavor ability concept (I just discovered CAP, haha), but I want to give my support to those possibilities.
 
The only Pokemon who get Levitate and another ability are the Bronzong line and Duskull. Duskull only comes from the fact that only it in its line gets Levitate and they likely didn't want its evolutions to not get HAs just because the prevo has Levitate. And while I have nothing to explain Bronzong, they're still only 3 Pokemon out of the whopping 35 Levitate users we have, and a clear minority and not something of a model for how these abilities work.

Comatose is an overwhelming trait, like Levitate. I can still get behind something like Forewarn since it still means Pajantom is asleep, but something like Unnerve or Telepathy tick me off because they shelve away the central aspect of Pajantom of being asleep and that fact of being asleep affecting how it fights for more mundane aspects of its character like how scary it is.

And about Rest, that just had to get in because of the allowances and dissallowances of the movepool phase. It won't work with only Comatose, but its not like Pokemon is no stranger to particularly useless traits, such as Levitate Rotom-F, Attract Cryogonal, Synchronoise Umbreon and Final Gambit Shedinja. Besides its kinda funny.
4


Yeah, my point is that even "overwhelming abilities" have exceptions. Even if there were a thousand Levitate users and only one had another ability, that mon, by itself, would make any argument that Levitate is too overwhelming to allow another ability inherently invalid.

In fact, I would go as far as saying that it means that claims that there are even such a thing as abilities too overwhelming to allow a second ability is inherently invalid.

And Levitate has a lot more precedence than Comatose.

What's more, a different possible ability helps Paantom distinguish itself from Komala, and I think more ways for mon to distinguish themselves from each other is a good thing.

From the previously seen ideas, I like Forewarn and Rattled the most. I can´t contribute with an idea of my own because I´m pretty new to the flavor ability concept (I just discovered CAP, haha), but I want to give my support to those possibilities.
Rattled was considered too powerful in the competitive stage, never mind the flavour stage. (I mean, I like it for fulfilling the concept, but that's not what this stage is for)
 

Deck Knight

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I like that Okamu made his point on signature / overwhelming abilities using Rough Skin Carvanha / Sharpedo instead of the more notorious Drought and Drizzle legends :)
 
Has anyone thought about Long Reach? It kind of makes sense as Pajantom itself isn't actually attacking, but a projection of itself.
 
Has anyone thought about Long Reach? It kind of makes sense as Pajantom itself isn't actually attacking, but a projection of itself.
I think we have to give a long hard look at the Rowlet line to justify that. Between the Japanese name Remote and Decidueye's feather arrows, it gives the impression that the ability makes all moves ranged.
 
I don't really want an ability as it gives the opportunity for semi-reliable recovery in RestTalk, which we don't want.
 
I think we have to give a long hard look at the Rowlet line to justify that. Between the Japanese name Remote and Decidueye's feather arrows, it gives the impression that the ability makes all moves ranged.
The dream effectively does make the attacks ranged, so I support Long Reach.
I don't really want an ability as it gives the opportunity for semi-reliable recovery in RestTalk, which we don't want.
RestTalk was already discussed and it was decided that it's fine.
 
Ranged as in no contact. Sorry for not being more specific.

I didn't really follow along with the movepool part of the process, but I think we need to consider our movepool when considering Long Reach.
 
Ranged as in no contact. Sorry for not being more specific.

I didn't really follow along with the movepool part of the process, but I think we need to consider our movepool when considering Long Reach.
Regardless of his movepool, the effectiveness of Long Reach is very limited, which is part of what makes it a perfect flavor ability. The only practical reason it would be picked over Comatose is access to rest.
 
Long Reach is well, a reach. I don't fully understand why it makes sense in terms of flavor, especially since it's currently signature to Decidueye. I know there's the argument of it maybe not being signature in the future, but even ignoring that, I fail to see the flavor. Forewarn is my personal pick, as it plays of the idea that dreams mimic the future and all, and the other sleeping Pokemon Musharna has Forewarn.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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I honestly don't see the correlation behind Long Reach (or as Revi puts it is also echo'd). Dreamgon can likely still get hurt and just relay the pain, and the decidueye correlation is more for its long range arrows. I also think that giving an unreleased ability to a CAP is somewhat bad for optics, but that's a much more political reasoning.
 
Long Reach is well, a reach. I don't fully understand why it makes sense in terms of flavor, especially since it's currently signature to Decidueye. I know there's the argument of it maybe not being signature in the future, but even ignoring that, I fail to see the flavor. Forewarn is my personal pick, as it plays of the idea that dreams mimic the future and all, and the other sleeping Pokemon Musharna has Forewarn.
Well, i mean, comatose is signature to Komala anyway. My problem with forewarn is that forwarn is more about seeing the future than in reference to the sleeping status. After all, it's a PROPHETIC dream. I don't think Pajantom has or was intended to have any future seeing abilities.

I honestly don't see the correlation behind Long Reach (or as Revi puts it is also echo'd). Dreamgon can likely still get hurt and just relay the pain, and the decidueye correlation is more for its long range arrows. I also think that giving an unreleased ability to a CAP is somewhat bad for optics, but that's a much more political reasoning.
This is true, but that would mean that ALL of Decidueye's attacks take place in the form of arrows (including wing attack, sucker punch, shadow claw etc), which makes a lot less sense than what's proposed for Pajantom. As far as I know, we haven't established whether the pajantom spirit actually can block oncoming attacks (after all, it's just a projection). The idea of all attacks acting as ranged makes actually much more sense for Pajantom than it does for Decidueye in my eyes.
 
Well, i mean, comatose is signature to Komala anyway. My problem with forewarn is that forwarn is more about seeing the future than in reference to the sleeping status. After all, it's a PROPHETIC dream. I don't think Pajantom has or was intended to have any future seeing abilities.



This is true, but that would mean that ALL of Decidueye's attacks take place in the form of arrows (including wing attack, sucker punch, shadow claw etc), which makes a lot less sense than what's proposed for Pajantom. As far as I know, we haven't established whether the pajantom spirit actually can block oncoming attacks (after all, it's just a projection). The idea of all attacks acting as ranged makes actually much more sense for Pajantom than it does for Decidueye in my eyes.
Don’t act like you know Pajantom more than anyone. Also, nobody claimed that it can see the future. It simply is a nod to the idea of seeing the future in dreams.
 
Don’t act like you know Pajantom more than anyone. Also, nobody claimed that it can see the future. It simply is a nod to the idea of seeing the future in dreams.
Sorry, but it seems like a property that comes out of left feild. The the names prophetic dream and forewarn draw a stronger correlation to future vision than they do for sleep. I have never implied or meant to imply that i know pajantom better than anyone else here. I'm just trying my best not to add concepts or abilities that weren't established by the original artist and concept creator. If I'm striking you as presumptuos, than i'm very sorry, that is far from my intention.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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[changes to Ability Leader voice]
Consider this your 24 hour warning. Please finish the discussion on currently proposed abilities and bring up any new suggestions, as this is your last chance. Real quickly, there are some abilities that should no longer be discussed.

Rattled: This was discussed during Primary Ability, so that already a large amount of suspicion to its inclusion as flavor. Furthermore, its speed raising properties can be considered far too competitive, as they can actually effect our checks quite heavily.

Pressure: Already was presented in previous ability discussions. It allows Rest to be used and can be used as a cheap, defensive way to PP drain opponenents. Not only is this far too competitive, but it is against the more offensive focus for Pajantom.

Cursed Body: While seemingly non-competitive on the surface, its nasty effect of disabling moves gives Pajantom a huge advantage in battle once it triggers, which can hardly be defined as non-competitive. Furthermore, this ability is triggered through contact, meaning that it somewhat patches up its defense by disabling the dangerous moves. Aftermath follows some similar trends of punishing their attacks, so it is also deemed as competitive.

Long Reach: Giving our CAP an unreleased ability is incredibly bad for optics, and also can be considered excessive considering how bloated this Pokemon is with other exclusives.
 

earl

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I’m throwing all my support behind No other ability. It’s simple, makes sense (as if you’re comatose chances are you’re not doing much else), and the only other popular option, Forewarn, seems like a bit of a stretch on a physical ghost dragon when the other sleeping mon we have to go off of is a special psychic type. Can’t really see this thing having any sort of prophecy powers.
 

Bughouse

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I don’t believe any Pokémon learn a move that they can’t use. Ergo with rest included, comatose must receive an alternative that allows rest to be used successfully for any decent flavor.
 

snake

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I’m throwing all my support behind No other ability. It’s simple, makes sense (as if you’re comatose chances are you’re not doing much else), and the only other popular option, Forewarn, seems like a bit of a stretch on a physical ghost dragon when the other sleeping mon we have to go off of is a special psychic type. Can’t really see this thing having any sort of prophecy powers.
To be fair, it does have Psychic and Psychic Fangs. It's not completely devoid of Psychic-type flavor. Also, Hypno and Jynx have Forewarn for abilities, and both don't have future-seeing powers. There also isn't a complete correlation between, say, Future Sight and Forewarn, as the Jynx line doesn't have access to it.
 
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