CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

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nyttyn

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so I think after reading through the initial arguments i'm all for Comatose as being in the running for, if not a frontrunner for our primary ability. It provides us with the status immunity we desire, without allocating way too much of the power budget that Magic Guard would swallow up, and without leaving us still open to burns and paralyze like immunize would. Shed Skin is too RNG (use Scrafty if you wanna get a feeling for how badly shed skin can feel), and leaf guard and friends are too tied to weather which A) limits what teams CAP 23 can be on and B) keeping weather up is no longer the sure thing it used to be.

I think we can probably safely ignore any sort of trick room or phazing shenanagins. I mean for starters we can just not give CAP 23 those moves, and...really how much of a problem is +0 trick room going to be from anything that wants to use trick room, from a move that only gives you a 1 in 3 shot of even summoning trick room, and in turn gives up one of your move slots? and of the phazing moves, well. phazing is the literal exact opposite of what we want to do it does not get any more anti-concept then that, so we can disregard any fears of +0 roar spam.

This is a unique effect that's only semi-replicated by the use of Heal Bell (which takes a turn and a move slot to boot), and status clearing berries (which are narrow, consume the item slot and go away after one use anyway). Meanwhile, it's possible to just boost our attack stat to get more damage, or give ourselves more powerful coverage moves, and it's possible to boost up our defensive stats to shore up our bulk, or give ourselves access to recovery moves (of which there's a goodly wide range to pick from). It's a lot harder to get this kind of status-hate, and as such, I feel that's why we should handle this problem in the ability stage.

As for why we should tackle this issue of status effects - They are extremely common on the bulkier pokemon we're targeting, and can cripple CAP 23's ability to beat them. In particular, I believe full status immunity is extremely important as otherwise we'll lose to status conditions we are not immune to, and you have cases like Mollux where you could potentially get nailed with any of the three common status conditions on a swap! And Comatose is the right pick for the job, as it keeps up from suffering the nasty side effects of a burn drop plus residual damage, the death sentence that is toxic, and the slowness + loss of turn paralyze can induce whilst only using up exactly as much of our power budget as we need (that is, this is a reliable effect (unlike shed skin, leaf guard, and hydration) that doesn't give us side effects we dont really need in an ability (magic guard's immunity to weather damage, stealth rocks, spikes, and life orb recoil whilst still leaving us saddled with the attack drop from burn).

Thus, Comatose works well with our Target and Dismantle list, as it handles a key weakness with beating them that is otherwise extremely hard to come by, and it is not too good, as it does exactly what it needs to and nothing more.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
Overall I'm somewhat baffled on Aerilate as I think Tough Claws Psychic Move or even Strong Jaw Psychic Fangs does it better. Based on the list of things we want to threaten, Psychic coverage beats a bit more than Flying iirc so it seems like the better option to boost.
252 Atk Strong Jaw Garchomp Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 214-254 (51.6 - 61.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aerilate Garchomp Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 206-244 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 196-232 (47.3 - 56%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Garchomp Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 188-222 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Strong Jaw is a little bit stronger than Aerilate. Aerilate is stronger than Tough Claws, but not so much if used with Outrage.

Since all the targets to dismantle are weak or neutral to Psychic coverage i prefer Tough Claws, since it could give to CAP23 enough power to deal with neutral targets like Toxapex or Pyroak with its STABs
 
What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

So we have to be able to deal with Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Mega Venusaur and Zapdos. Some of them are actually an issue for CAP23. Just take a look at some calcs versus a 130 bst Attack CAP23.

Tomohawk
252 Atk Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 102-120 (24.6 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 153-180 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 240-283 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Toxapex
252 Atk Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 70-84 (23 - 27.6%) -- 66.5% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Arghonaut
252 Atk Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 99-117 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 147-174 (35.5 - 42%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 231-273 (55.7 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Pyroak
252 Atk Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 93-109 (20.9 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 136-162 (30.6 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 217-256 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega Venusaur
252 Atk Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 82-97 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- 27.9% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 123-145 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 195-229 (53.7 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zapdos
252 Atk Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 106-126 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- 81.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 159-187 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 252-297 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

We have trouble to kill 6 on the 8 mons we have to deal with. CAP23 will maybe get taunt but the fact is we need 4, 5 or 6 turns to beat the foe. It is too much. It is necessary to increase the power of CAP23. I present some ideas that have not yet attracted too much attention

Strong Jaw : It is a nice idea. Except Zapdos and Pyroak, other targets are weak to a Strong Jaw Psychic Fangs.
252 Atk Strong Jaw Garchomp Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 174-206 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Strong Jaw Garchomp Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 148-176 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Strong Jaw Garchomp Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 214-254 (51.6 - 61.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Strong Jaw Garchomp Psychic Fangs vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 206-244 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Stakeout/Analytic : Some people said it was anti-concept because it is a pseudo-trap move which prevents your opponent to switch. I do not think so since even with a Z-Move StakeOut, you can switch on your counter.
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 176-207 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 55-66 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Scizor-Mega: 177-208 (51.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Scizor-Mega: 56-66 (16.2 - 19.1%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Celesteela: 275-324 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Celesteela: 87-103 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (It is okay after Protect)

StakeOut looks really strong, perhaps too strong but Analytic fits well to decrease the life of a mon who comes on Spirit Shackle. It helps CAP23 to punish switch-in.

Hustle : Why not ? It is a good combination with a Z-move. We deal with targets really easier. Sure, it is a strong ability however the counterpart is risky.
252 Atk Hustle Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 289-342 (79.6 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hustle Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 324-382 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 204-241 (46 - 54.4%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Own Tempo : It sucks a bit but it allows to CAP23 to spam Outrage against a target trapped (who eventually spams recover). That is not a great ability but it looks fun to use.

I had in mind Early Bird as well but it is maybe a bit too fat.

A last thing, do not focus too much on statut moves, a large part of mons who used it (leech seed, toxik, lava plume, scald, etc) cannot bypass a substitute of CAP23 with standard defenses.

Zapdos has 125 SpA, Discharge a base power of 80. Let's see on a 90/90/90
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 57-67 (17.7 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO

EDIT :
252 Atk Tough Claws Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 178-210 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

CAP23 (bst Attack 130) cannot deal with Pyroak with only Tough Claws.
 
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I really do like Comatose as a potential ability. It does help us fight status, which is the most vital attribute this mon needs to switch in to defensive threats. This was my primary concern when proposing Poison Heal or Guts, but unlike these abilities, Comatose also permits item freedom so the player isn't forced to run a Toxic Orb or Flame Orb.

Magic Guard is too powerful (hazards, sashes, Life Orb abuse and the Leech Seed issue all comes to mind) and wouldn't protect CAP 23 from burn's attack drop in any case. Something like Magic Bounce would also be too powerful, and wouldn't protect CAP from Toxapex and Mollux's Scald and Lava Plume respectively.

----------

I find Tough Claws to be a completely flat ability. It's alots CAP23 no special attributes or defining defensive niche aside from being a wall breaker able to trap, whereas lure Magma Storm Heatran works because it has defensive versatility.

CAP's attack stat can be adjusted to hit its targets as hard as it needs to at a later point. The fact that it boosts specific moves over others doesn't really make it appealing to me. Sure, it boosts Anchor Shot and Dragon Claw over Spirit Shackle. We voted to give this thing Dragon/Ghost typing. Obviously we're going to make Spirit Shackle viable enough, and if we choose to use Anchor Shot, it will work well enough as a Steel coverage move that can hit the Fairies immune to our Dragon STAB. A higher attack stat with appropriate coverage will enable it to break down its targets, no Tough Claws required. But Tough Claws or no, switching CAP into Toxapex's Scald and slowly dying to burn damage as it spams Recover defeats the purpose of it being a trapper all together.

Furthermore, Tough Claws doesn't affect Z-Item attacks which can also help CAP target specific mons it wants to hit.

-------
Tldr; The status issue needs to be dealt with NOW. CAP hitting its targets hard can come later, and Z-Items and Life Orb sets can always be a thing. Comatose > Tough Claws
 

S. Court

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EDIT :
252 Atk Tough Claws Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 178-210 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

CAP23 (bst Attack 130) cannot deal with Pyroak with only Tough Claws.
Maybe we should use Reckless or Rock Head, Head Smash can deal with Pyroak, while also dealing with Zapdos

252 Atk Garchomp Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 228-270 (51.4 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 264-312 (68.9 - 81.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

(I tried with Stone Edge and it doesn't work with Pyroak)

But considering status can be a total annoyance, maybe we should focus in avoiding them. We could give CAP23 something like Refresh, but that'd putting a bit of 4MSS, and I'm sure CAP23 will want more coverage, and the calcs you showed can be considered to give CAP23 a higher attack stat than 130

We should be really careful with Comatose thought. That means no Sleep Talk and phazing moves
 

Deck Knight

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Mod Post:

Please be very careful about polljumping. While there is some leeway to discuss offensive calcs on specific threats, defensive calcs are entirely conjecture even in the context of Substitute

- - - - -
User post:

I should be used to it by now, but I really do dislike how easily people throw out Magic Guard or Comatose as if we did not select an excellent typing already.

We do not need to stack CAP with the most powerful anti-status abilities because quite bluntly if we trap a defensive Pokemon and that particular mon can't 3HKO CAP, Rest is more than sufficient to address status. Early Bird is actually a decent option for this reason, by cutting the Rest turns down to 1 and safeguarding somewhat against Sleep Powder / Spore, and turning that 4HKO+ limit into a 3HKO+ one.
 

G-Luke

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After some meditation and looks on the calls, I think it's safe to say that Aerialate is all around one of the best options. It allows us to deal with almost all of the target and dismantle section effectively, which is what we are aiming to do with the Primary ability.

But.........

What I find amusing however, and I apologize if this is considered poll jumping, but why are we assuming that Devastating Drake is the only Z-Move we are considering in the equation? Not naming any specific coverage options, but since we are aiming to lure and trap, wouldn't specific coverage based Z-Moves be better? If we give it Aerialate, most of our target and dismantle section have no business switching in at all, thus defeating the lure and trap effect. Thanks to Ghost/Dragon already having great neutral coverage, we should play on this by focusing the threaten and dismantle section on moves, instead of ability. We should put our focus for the Primary ability on dettering anti trap issues like status and pivoting.
 

Quanyails

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After looking at the discussion on Discord, I have to agree with concerns HeaL, G-Luke, and other people have about Aerilate. Why do we want to project, "This 'mon is gonna use Aerilate Return against you, Tomohawk!" We're never gonna trap the Pokemon we're trying to target that way. If we want Flying-type coverage, we should do it discreetly and make it an option. We could have Flying-type coverage without Aerilate. We can tailor our stats to ensure we can beat the opponent first. We probably don't even need Flying-type coverage when Psychic-type coverage hits the Fighting- and Poison-type Pokemon on our targets list.

What we cannot tailor with stats is a way to make status effects less crippling. Besides Immunity and Toxic Boost, I support Comatose and Early Bird. Shed Skin and Harvest could also be neat, but the random aspect of it makes it harder to evaluate as a useful ability. We could go with Guts, but we have to be careful to not make CAP 23 into a beatstick.
 

S. Court

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Early Bird is actually really interesting, my main concern about this ability is we'll need to use Rest, that means we'll need a moveslot and we could be sacrificing coverage; on the other hand, Dragon and Ghost have a good neutral coverage, and it could use Rest and the last moveslot could be used to dedicated luring tools to certain threats can't be covered with STAB by themselves, but that might ends in a 4MSS (and I mean the bad one) so I'm not totally sure

EDIT:
As we were talking in Discord, Shield Dust could be an interesting ability, it would bring us a status shield against almost all way the target and dismantle target have to add status: Zapdos Discharge, Mollux/Pyroak Lava Plume, Toxapex/Arghonaut Scald and Mega Venusaur Sludge Bombe without telegraphing itself as Comatose does, AND has a plus to avoid Tomohawk's Air Slash flinch rate.

The only problem would be Toxic Spikes Toxapex and Toxic Zapdos, but the first one could be covered with a good hazard control and the second one is a bit uncommon (I THINK)
 
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reachzero

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To remember the plan, the Pokemon we want to trap and dismantle are Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Mega Venusaur and Zapdos.

With that in mind, I have absolutely zero idea why people are so worried about status. Toxic isn't really a big deal since it's too slow an effect to stop CAP 23 from doing it's job (dismantling the things it lures), Paralysis is not a huge deal considering how slow everything on the list that isn't Zapdos is, and in general, it's more effective and efficient to have enough killing power to those those things up than it is to try to go toe-to-toe with them over multiple turns. If you kill Zapdos before it can use Discharge, you don't have to worry about Paralysis. The only effect that is really an issue is Burn, and only Pyroak, Mollux and Toxapex can inflict Burn on the list given. In all of these cases, a boosted coverage move would be preferable for the sake of ensuring that the target Pokemon goes down and goes down quickly. Keep in mind that CAP 23 isn't meant to counter the above Pokemon, but to lure, trap and destroy them.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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To remember the plan, the Pokemon we want to trap and dismantle are Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Mega Venusaur and Zapdos.

With that in mind, I have absolutely zero idea why people are so worried about status. Toxic isn't really a big deal since it's too slow an effect to stop CAP 23 from doing it's job (dismantling the things it lures), Paralysis is not a huge deal considering how slow everything on the list that isn't Zapdos is, and in general, it's more effective and efficient to have enough killing power to those those things up than it is to try to go toe-to-toe with them over multiple turns. If you kill Zapdos before it can use Discharge, you don't have to worry about Paralysis. The only effect that is really an issue is Burn, and only Pyroak, Mollux and Toxapex can inflict Burn on the list given. In all of these cases, a boosted coverage move would be preferable for the sake of ensuring that the target Pokemon goes down and goes down quickly. Keep in mind that CAP 23 isn't meant to counter the above Pokemon, but to lure, trap and destroy them.
Please tell me how Aerilate Return lures in Tomohawk, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, and Mega Venusaur?

Tomohawk, Arghonaut, and maybe Pyroak viably run Toxic. Pyroak and Mollux viably run wisp or lava plume (well, Mollux doesn't really run wisp but Pyroak can even though Plume is certainly more popular). Venusaur and Tangrowth can run Sleep Powder. I really don't understand how you can look at the list and dismiss the issue of status.

With something like Tomohawk in particular, though with most of the list in general, the opposing mon using recovery is a big issue. Unless we have insane power (or a z move, which doesn't work with aerilate) we cannot get past these mons and their recovery in only a few turns. And this is where dealing with their status moves becomes very helpful so that they don't toxic stall us or whatnot.

Being immune to their status also doesn't let us counter them, it just makes CAP23's job very much easier. But you are not going to be luring that list in if you give CAP23 a psuedo Flying STAB move and your argument sort of falls apart there.
 

nyttyn

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just making a short post since im sick but i wanted to diss early bird. I do not think this is a good idea, as for starters using rest means that we've got one less move slot for everything else. This also means we may wind up with a ResTalk set that can basically recover to 100% and wipes out its status effects every other turn. That's pretty strong! This is on a pokemon who's already got a really good typing defensively. I worry this may cause us to see bulky stall sets that are distracting at best, and at worst lead us to disregard our C&C list to become some sort of wall instead, the worst possible outcome being a restalktoxicshackle set that's a death sentence for anything not immune to poison that cannot 2HKO or taunt it which is very potentially horrifyingly overpowered with CAP 23's resists.

also i really dont like shield dust because it seems to be a weaker version of comatose that leaves us open to toxic spikes, toxic, wisp, and sleep powder. i mean ignoring air slash is cool and all but i think the best option here is to go with the ability that just outright performs the goal of status-hate without any additional caveats, frills, strengths, or weaknesses.
 

reachzero

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Yeah, I left out content I had intended to include in my previous post regarding Aerilate. You are correct, Aerilate would definitely prevent the Pokemon we mean to lure in from switching in entirely, which is undesirable. We would be better off going with a different offensive ability, whether than is Tough Claws, Reckless, Strong Jaw, etc. I completely concede that point, and no longer support Aerilate.

That being said, Toxic Tomohawk is pretty niche and wouldn't save it against a boosted coverage move anyway (the same applies for Arghonaut), while taking out Pyroak and Mollux quickly are more obviously possible, should be choose to do so. I really don't want to get into the calcs in this stage since that's the sort of thing that could wait for later in the process, but it is totally possible to kill both Tomo and Pyroak before status becomes a factor as long as we have an offensive ability for our coverage (Tough Claws being suitable). Venusaur could certainly use Sleep Powder, but I have my serious doubts that physically defensive Tangrowth is really worth using in CAP, to be honest. At any rate, Venusaur could definitely be one shot and it is *very* slow so I don't see how it is a factor, even a little. Zapdos is far more difficult to one-shot, but even then it could probably be managed with the right coverage move.

This is an offensive concept, and I just don't see how a defensive ability would help this do its job.
 
Paralysis is not a huge deal considering how slow everything on the list that isn't Zapdos is, and in general, it's more effective and efficient to have enough killing power to those those things up than it is to try to go toe-to-toe with them over multiple turns. If you kill Zapdos before it can use Discharge, you don't have to worry about Paralysis.
There's a lot of blatantly wrong things about your post, but this bit sticks out in particular, because you've completely forgotten Static Zapdos is a thing (and you also conviently forgot CAP might switch into Discharge). In any case, if CAP gets paralyzed, it's no longer able to kill Zap as Zap can fish for full para, outspeed and Roost when appropriate and hit it with HP Ice or even whittle it down with Electric moves.

Besides, the more glaring issue is that a burnt physically offensive CAP23 isn't going to kill Toxapex or Mollux while they're just spamming Recover as CAP will just die to burn damage.

Countering status is vital to our concept and hitting our target list.
 

G-Luke

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Prankster is surprisingly not bad. In combination with Taunt, it makes for some cheeky ways of ignoring Status.
Plus it grants us Priority Fairy Lock, if thats an attractive route.
 
Prankster is surprisingly not bad. In combination with Taunt, it makes for some cheeky ways of ignoring Status.
Plus it grants us Priority Fairy Lock, if thats an attractive route.
Interesting thought, but I think Prankster Taunt would allow 23 to get past Skarmory by denying its recovery and preventing it from using Whirlwind, which it is supposed to be countered by.
 
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There's a lot of blatantly wrong things about your post, but this bit sticks out in particular, because you've completely forgotten Static Zapdos is a thing (and you also conviently forgot CAP might switch into Discharge). In any case, if CAP gets paralyzed, it's no longer able to kill Zap as Zap can fish for full para, outspeed and Roost when appropriate and hit it with HP Ice or even whittle it down with Electric moves.

Besides, the more glaring issue is that a burnt physically offensive CAP23 isn't going to kill Toxapex or Mollux while they're just spamming Recover as CAP will just die to burn damage.

Countering status is vital to our concept and hitting our target list.
Orrrr you can just kill Toxapex/Mollux before they can status you. As for switching in, you can just run a VoltTurn user to safely bring it in.

In terms of Static Zapdos, does anyone even run it? As far as I know Zapdos runs the same sets in CAP as it does in OU, and all of the OU sets run Pressure. Let me know if I'm wrong about that, but if I'm right, then this isn't somehow even worth considering.
 
This is not an inherently offensive-only concept. It is a trapper whose job is to trap and dismantle a very specific set of Pokemon that, either directly or indirectly, utilize status within their movesets and the fact is said status will hinder CAP23's ability to dismantle said pokemon.

Now, I have spoken with many people about this including plenty of advocates for move-boosting abilities extensively and still remain unconvinced they are the way to go because abilities that allow us to ignore status make it considerably easier for us to switch into, force out and in general engage many of the things we are supposed to dismantle or force out. Toxapex and Pyroak, which we're supposed to outright counter, would not be safe to switch into because of the burn chance on Scald and Lava Plume which, regardless of Tough Claws or Adaptability or your boosting ability of choice, would cripple our offensive presence more than the lack of those abilities would. 30% is 30% and when that 30% equates to practically losing the matchup, then CAP23 doesn't counter Toxapex or Pyroak or Mollux 30% of the time and fails as an answer to any of those three.

Furthermore, there is the fact that Rotom-W, which we don't counter but are supposed to check, probably becomes able to check us because being inflicted with Burn from Will-o-Wisp would cripple our ability to dismantle the things we're supposed to dismantle. Saying that we can kill before they burn us is essentially saying every time you use CAP23 you will be gambling that the numbers go in your favor to beat the things it's supposed to beat, which probably means you just don't use CAP23 because if it can't even reliably deal with its best matchups then it certainly won't be worth using.

Fact is, we need to address status in the abilities stage because it is one of the two major threats to this CAP (the other being not having enough offensive presence) yet we cannot address it by balancing its stats. A trapper needs to consistently kill the things it traps because the reason you run one is to remove one other group of Pokemon from the equation to allow some other 'mon in your team to triumph. Failing 30% of the time because of a coin toss is unacceptable.

Shield Dust has potential, especially taking into account it prevents Air Slash haxing. I also agree with Nyttyn that truth to be told Comatose may very well be the best ability for this CAP, with the only thing making people reticent about it being that it is considered generically good on a good typing. As such, these two abilities have my backing. Although I understand and have come to acknowledge the benefits of Tough Claws/Strong Jaw/Etc, saying status is not a worry is preposterous. Furthermore, countering status still remains, in my opinion, the number one priority for abilities.
 
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- I'm against aerilate.I don't think it is needed to gain flying coverage : we can give brave bird to CAP23 (which could be booster by though claws) if we absolutly want a flying move. if our ability is aerilate, tomo and friends are never going to switch in.

- I support comatose. It's a great deal against defensive pokemon like toxapex (which can toxic or scald-burn) and sleep power tangrowth/venusaure. it could look like a defensive ability for an offensive concept, but it allows CAP23 to avoid the damage reduction of the burn, and plenty of anoying thing like sleep

- merciless also seems to be very cool. It would give an offensive utility of toxic, a move that already pair well with trapping. the only problem is the number of poison-type pokemon in the liste of targets. It is a bit problematic if we can''t use our ability on toxapex, mollux and venusaure.

- I wanted to bring up serene grace. We gain great matchup against most of pour target with zen headbut/heart stamp. we don't need a high speed since we are going to trap moslty defensive (and so, most of the time, slow) pokemon. we just need to outspeed tomo. the problem is that we would totaly depend of haxx, which is never a good thing.

- prankster isn't that good I belive, because most of our targets are slow, so we don't need priority. And even if some trapped mon are faster than us, it isn't going to be the most common scenario, so I think that we can run better ability.
 

Deck Knight

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When I game TrapCAP out in my head, what I see is one main backbone set consisting of a Trapping Move, a STAB, a Coverage move, and a filler that either provides offensive pressure or defeats a niche opponent.

Note something very important here: Two of the three above are conveniently compressable into one slot within existing mechanics. This means your trapping move could be either STAB or Coverage. The question is, what does CAP do with the other 3 slots.

For example, a permanent trapping move combined with Rest will always beat a trapped Toxapex, provided CAP can win a PP War. There are other moves that can do this while retaining viability of the set in general. Even a set as mundane as Spirit Shackle/Toxic/Rest/Filler can beat Tomohawk provided CAP avoids a 3HKO from Air Slash (or 2HKO w/ Early Bird Rest .)

Status is an issue but people are vastly overrating the massive advantage CAP has if these bulky Pokemom stay in to status. The chief concern seems to be what to do on a switch. Well, as unfortunate as the RNG can be, the fact is Toxapex Scald and Pyroak Lava Plume are not going to put CAP anywhere near a KO range, and our purpose is to lure these out anyway, not to a always switch in on them.

Now, remember I said there's a filler slot. What if that filler was a stat-up move? This would draw in walls like the plague and especially Tomo to Haze it away (or Argh yo Phaze). Shackle/Rest/Toxic/Stat-up may be horribly one-dimensional, but it does lure in walls that can eat an attack and get out of there. The danger of course is that trapping + stat-up could get out of hand quickly, especially if the set neutralizes Tomo at the cost of coverage. I am not suggesting people start assuming stat-ups, what I am saying is we need to think outside the box of the usual immunity abilities and ask ourselves what abilities allow CAP versatility, pressure / psy-ops, and unpredictability.

Basically speaking people are too focused on how bad it is to switch into status when CAP should instead be pulling these Pokemon in by being threatening in another way. You can't "dismantle" with a straightforward approach, the opponent has to think itsls worth it to risk their defensive backbone getting trapped. If their defensive mon already did its job and you are reacting by switching CAP in, it's too late. It needs go either lure or double switch for maximum effect.

Which is why I liked Sychronize and Liquid Ooze originally, because they are all about that pressure element that forces the opponent to second guess what move to make and what to follow-up a switch with. The bottom line is TrapCAP needs to be unpredictable and break bulky targets through set tailoring. It's kind of like Kilowatt's intended Utility Counter function - you can isolate and dismantle one target, but not all of them at once.
 
I also want to leave my few cents on some brought up abilties I objectively like.

Shield Dust - Most of the Pokemon we want to dismantle use side effects to inflict status, like it has already been said. I really approve that this ability covers just this, and nothing more. Comatose is also great, but a bit to universal in my opinion.
Moxie - I like this ability for the scenario it covers: The oppoenent wants to sacrifice a weakened mon to the trapping move, instead of risking his wall. The fact that we can punish this helps CAP23's viability, but I honestly think that .this is better as a secondary ability
Volt Absorb - This is an excelent way to tackle our list of mons we want to dismantle or at least pressure. Volt Switch either gifts us some recovery or are forced into a hard switch, which provides us some momentum to use the trapping move of choice.
 
First off, this post will contain general movepool drafts which are obviously tentative since CAP23 has no movepool yet. Therefore, if any further selection of a movepool should make this analysis obsolete or unusable, I apologize.

In contrast with Deck, it is my belief that CAP sets will run double STAB in almost all situations since there is a grand total of seven Pokémon in the pokedex that this STAB combination doesn't hit at least neutrally, and the only one that may be relevant is Bisharp. As such, I believe that the most effective hypothetical sets for CAP will come in the following flavors:

  • Dragon STAB/Ghost STAB/Coverage/Toxic, which either has Ghost STAB or Coverage (or even both) be the trapping move depending on whether or not this CAP gets access to Tough Claws, Anchor Shot and Shadow Claw.
  • Dragon STAB/Ghost STAB/Coverage/Coverage, a version of CAP23 focused on offensive presence that uses the trapper and more coverage hard-hitting options to broaden the amount of targets it can hit (and may even not run a trapping move, which is something that was desired back at the assessment stage last I remember). This could also, depending on stats, use Assault Vest over a potential Z-Crystal.
  • Dragon STAB/Ghost STAB/Coverage/Stat-Up, which offers pressure through the stat-up moves notably both as a lure and as an abuser of the trapping pressure it exerts. This set, if status-immune, offers a quandary to the opponent both assuming say, Tomohawk, wants to switch in to Haze away boosts and risk getting trapped and in a situation of CAP23 switching in where Tomohawk has to switch or risk being trapped and killed, giving CAP23 a potential free turn of setup that (provided you have already dealt with the opposing Celesteela/Skarm/etc) leaves CAP in a prime position to abuse its neutral coverage and exert pressure, probably forcing said Tomo to come back in and die anyway after getting trapped.
  • SoloSTAB/Coverage/Coverage/Filler, geared to SEing more of our targets alongside the trapped and using the filler for either Toxic or a Stat-Up that unlocks CAP23 and generates pressure. In wild situations it may even run triple coverage, if that is what the team requires of it (especially if said coverage is Anchor Shot)
  • Potentially there'd be the SoleSTAB/Rest/Toxic/filler set which I believe would be a lot less used in comparison with othe above options because it implies either giving up on one of the greatest advantages of Dragon/Ghost (it's near-unresisted pair of STAB), giving up on coverage which is our main way to threaten our hit list, or giving up on both options for boosting pressure. Sure, we could probably use ResToxic to outstall whatever we are fighting at the time, but I doubt we'll have the PP to do it more than once. Any of the other sets have the potential, depending on our movelist, to draw in and dismantle more than one of our targets.
This hypothetical vision points to me that movepool is not going to be able to address potential status, again something all of our targets like to toss around rather often. Said status also has the potential to either severely inconvenience or outright stop us from our jobs, to the point that the main sets Deck proposed all run Rest as a way to attempt to address the threat they pose.

It is my belief, thus, that addressing status now in the Ability stage either completely through Comatose or partially but mostly through abilities such as Shield Dust will allow CAP to be even more versatile and thus unpredictable, since it would have an extra moveslot which can hold a secondary STAB of another coverage move which would allow it to dismantle completely different things, depending on the set.

Now, I have also tried to take a look at this same equation from the attacking ability standpoint and the ability I am currently liking the most is Strong Jaw. This ability would empower coverage options such as base 123 Psychic Fangs (hitting a fair amount of targets) or the elemental fangs, of which base 98 Ice Fang targets Tangrowth/Zapdos and base 98 Thunder Fang attacks Tomohawk/Toxapex/Arghonaut (Admittedly already covered by Psychic Fangs). yet it also doesn't affect Shadow Claw like Tough Claws does. Ice Fang also hits Lando-T and Thunder Fang hits Volkraken, which are on our list of 'mon to force out without outright killing. It is thus my belief that Strong Jaw would be a better option, even though the loss of the boost to Anchor Shot that Tough Claws gives may be regrettable.
 
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david0895

Mercy Main Btw
I really like the Shield Dust idea, but there's one thing that I don't understand since the start of the thread: how is CAP23 supposed to lure these Pokemon if we know that it will have the ability that we are choosing?
We are creating a Pokemon that can wins against these targets, but they will never enter on CAP23 if there will not be other viable sets/abilities that can guarantee to CAP23 to lose against them
 

Deck Knight

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I would still like an explanation as to how it is we're stressing over status when CAP is supposed to be luring in defensive threats, trapping and KOing them, and making things easier for the rest of the team after doing so.

It seems to me that Rest (especially Early Bird or Shed Skin Rest) would deal with status in the immediate scenario, but a more reliable healing method (50% moves or Draining moves) would still outpace the low damage now inflicted by Burn and would allow CAP to outpace Toxic. Remember, even in both mons are inflicted with Toxic at the same time, CAP is the only mon that can switch, so the opponent will always have to take an additional round of Toxic damage.

It seems to me there is a lot of internal conflict between not turning CAP into a beatstick and being able to reliably 2HKO Tomohawk through physical attacks. Those two functions are near impossible to pull off simultaneously.

Burn's attack reduction is a threat, but unless Pyroak starts running Dragon Pulse the only mons that can burn CAP on our list lose to Rest. Unlike Naviathan where we're trying to balance against a second set that is supposed to be equally viable, either Water Veil for Burns, or Water Absorb / Storm Drain for Scald, or Shield Dust for Scald and Lava Plume does the job that needs doing if we fear Burn specifically and don't want an awesome blanket ability like Comatose (which actually renders Rest ineffective entirely). Shield Dust is still pretty powerful but all its very helpful effects assist in reliable trapping and limits burn infliction specifically to Will-O-Wisp.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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I'm sorry Deck, but from my observations you are the only person who is advocating for Rest and a lot of others think that it's cost of a moveslot is too high. STAB, STAB, pick 2 of 4 coverage options has better luring potential (or potentially one slot being utility but really the emphasis on an offensive mon should be coverage either way).

Yes, if we get a recovery option we can outpace the healing of burn, but that still doesn't stop us from suffering the attack drop. And I just disagree that any recovery we have will be enough to outpace Toxic as it can and will rack up, especially since the opponents we're fighting will have recovery too. I can maybe see a scenario where Taunt helps us out, but even then it's a longer fought matchup and being psned while taking three or whatever turns to KO Tomohawk is a fairly crippling result even if CAP does dismantle it's target. And Taunt messes with our counters list soooo there's that issue too.

The scenario where both CAP23 and it's trapped target are suffering from Toxic damage makes the huge assumption that CAP23 will be running Toxic, which again is a huge cost of a moveslot. If your perfect set is STAB, STAB/coverage, Rest, Toxic then I don't think you're really going to have a high luring potential. Throughout this entire CAP so far, you have been advocating weird stalling mechanics (I even remember you mentioning Leech Seed) when no one else has really gotten behind that. The concept assessment deemed we'd be offensive and I just don't see the sets you're proposing lining up with that in the least.

Sorry for bringing up moves a fair bit but I felt like I had to since Deck's been talking relatively specific moves for a while (of course always in hypotheticals) that I just haven't seen anyone else support.
 
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