CAP Updates: Voodoom Discussion (Complete)

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CAP council has decided that stats will not be modified
Oh, my bad. Still, we could just not give it perfect coverage or something- Give it one type that it doesn't have an answer for. It could be Fairy or Flying (I say Fairy), but if it doesn't have perfect coverage for its weaknesses, it could be balanced. I can see two options for this.

1. Nasty Plot + coverage moves
2. Nasty Plot + Mold Breaker
 
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david0895

Mercy Main Btw
Oh, my bad. Still, we could just not give it perfect coverage or something- Give it one type that it doesn't have an answer for. It could be Fairy or Flying (I say Fairy), but if it doesn't have perfect coverage for its weaknesses, it could be balanced. I can see two options for this.

1. Nasty Plot + coverage moves
2. Nasty Plot + Mold Breaker
Movepool update will be done after the ability update
 
Oh, my bad. Still, we could just not give it perfect coverage or something- Give it one type that it doesn't have an answer for. It could be Fairy or Flying (I say Fairy), but if it doesn't have perfect coverage for its weaknesses, it could be balanced. I can see two options for this.

1. Nasty Plot + coverage moves
2. Nasty Plot + Mold Breaker
It gets destroyed by fairies, and what flying types are relevant? Caw takes about as much from Focus Blast as it does from a potential Mold Breaker Thunderbolt.

Which does actually bring up the point: Is there potentially anything that would cause Mold Breaker to be a deal breaker for expanding coverage moves? The ability to get around Unaware Clefable and Mimikyu are about the only two things I can think of that may be relevant. Getting +2 Psychic off on Unaware Argo and hitting Dragonite through Multiscale are two of the other main things it can deal with, since Cawmodore would have issues switching in on +2 Voodoom anyways.
 
It gets destroyed by fairies, and what flying types are relevant? Caw takes about as much from Focus Blast as it does from a potential Mold Breaker Thunderbolt.

Which does actually bring up the point: Is there potentially anything that would cause Mold Breaker to be a deal breaker for expanding coverage moves? The ability to get around Unaware Clefable and Mimikyu are about the only two things I can think of that may be relevant. Getting +2 Psychic off on Unaware Argo and hitting Dragonite through Multiscale are two of the other main things it can deal with, since Cawmodore would have issues switching in on +2 Voodoom anyways.
According to snake, people want UnawareMons to be a threat to Voodoom, like Argo and Clefable. I said little to no coverage so people would think Voodoom wouldn't become broken. I don't get why, as Clefable destroys Voodoom with Moonblast anyways, and Argo could retaliate with a fighting move of its own. The turn Voodoom sets up leaves it vulnerable, so I don't get all of the hoopla.
 
According to snake, people want UnawareMons to be a threat to Voodoom, like Argo and Clefable. I said little to no coverage so people would think Voodoom wouldn't become broken. I don't get why, as Clefable destroys Voodoom with Moonblast anyways, and Argo could retaliate with a fighting move of its own. The turn Voodoom sets up leaves it vulnerable, so I don't get all of the hoopla.
Yeah, so, the problem is that mons generally have to live a hit from the mon they are meant to check in order to check (provided said mon outspeeds the check, which Doom does for both Clef and Argho). Please see the calcs that were in reach's post that I have quoted below.

I have two suggestions, both with situational applications. The more powerful of the two is Mold Breaker, which would solidify Voodoom's stallbreaking ability by totally changing its matchups with Unaware Clefable and Pyukumuku. Timid +2 Lightning Rod Voodoom does 45.4 - 53.5% to defensive Unaware Clefable with Shattered Psyche, where Mold Breaker lets Voodoom 90.6 - 106.5%, a 43.8% chance to OHKO. Similarly, +2 Mold Breaker Voodoom does 83.4 - 98.7% to defensive Pyumuku with Focus Blast, while Lightning Rod does 42 - 49.6%. It would also secure the OHKO on Arghonaut, which is not possible even on the defensive set without Mold Breaker.
Clefable only has a chance of living a +2 Shattered Psyche, and that's assuming Timid, or SpA neutral Nature. If Doom was Modest, that thing is dead. Psyche also easily does the same on Argho. Now look at the speed. Clef is base 60. Argho is base 75. Doom is base 110. For those aforementioned calcs, the sets were defensive. Doom is naturally going to be running a large amount of speed itself to make the most out of its high base stat. They are not outspeeding Doom. With that, please explain to me how, in any manner, Clefable or Argho both plan to live an already set up, +2 MB Voodoom's attack in order to fire back one of their own STABs. It simply won't happen.

I understand you just want to help and are new, so let me explain where I believe your thinking went wrong. Ideally, yes, checks are meant to have free switch ins to be effective. However, if Voodoom is at +2, which only takes one turn with Nasty Plot, they cease being effective. Thus, they can be deemed checks only for a +0 Doom. Unfortunately, the first thing a Doom is going to do in a realistic situation, is switch in on something it can set up on, and then set up while you switch out to whatever you feel is the best check/counter. Of course, this opens up the opportunity for predicts and all that jazz, but at the most basic level, Voodoom has the option to very easily get to +2. As a result, that means that Clefable and Argho very easily lose their check status, since they only function at +0 for NP Doom.

Now, if you say, "Well, then don't give Doom psychic coverage and it won't have Shattered Psyche." The problem is that we're not looking at nerfing this mon, and since it already has Psychic in its movepool, the move won't be thrown out just for the sake of making an extra, highly debated update work better.

As for what I personally favor, I lean with the no Comp. Ability crowd. It does bug me greatly having Volt Absorb and whatever Hidden Ability we choose to both be wholly niche/flavor, but I honestly don't currently see something presented that makes me think "Yeah, Voodoom would be better with this, but not to a point where it's overbearing."As such, I lean No Competitive Ability.
 
Yes, because having the bulk to properly set up and having two great stabs and already decent coverage = completely outclassed.
Using Hippo for calcs because he takes all there attacks neutrally:

+2 252 SpA Azelf Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Hippowdon: 299-352 (71.1 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Hippowdon: 288-340 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Azelf Psychic vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Hippowdon: 366-432 (87.1 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Hippowdon: 433-510 (103 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I see what you mean. That's great STAB right there. His 85% accurate Focus Blast is only barely more powerful than 100% Psychic on Azelf, and his Dark Pulse actually does less than the non-STAB Fire Blast on Azelf.

And I think you've highly overestimated the bulkiness of completely uninvested 90/80/80, especially with defensive typing as bad as Voodoom's. And I'm assuming you are uninvested in defense, because otherwise either your damage output will be pitiful, or you lose your speed tier.

Further, Psychic+Fire Blast is better super effective coverage against the CAP meta than Dark Pulse+Focus Blast, especially since most of the Dark weak pokemon in the tier are also weak to Fire.

And do note that this is actually Azelf's worst set, and even Azelf's best set isn't good enough for CAP
 

HeaLnDeaL

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3 weaknesses makes Voodoom's defensive typing awful? Furthermore you offer no proof via calcs regarding voodoom's inability to take hits and simply expect us to take it as truth? You are calcing against hippowdon, something which is irrelevant. You say you are calcing with hippo because of the neutrality to all hits involved and quite frankly this is exactly what is missing the point. Voodoom's STABs ability to hit a ton of things super effectively is so much better than Azelf's ability to hit things super effectively with only a whimpy psychic. Using a single neutral case target misses the entire point of what Voodoom has going for it in the offensive department.

There's a HUGE difference between voodoom's 90 / 80 / 80 defenses and Azelf's 75 / 70 / 70. One is above average, one is below. Even more, Voodoom has 3 weaknesses, 3 resists, and two immunities. Azelf has 3 weaknesses, only 2 resists, and only one immunity.

I've already provided a lot of calcs regarding Voodoom's offensive capabilities with nasty plot and have talked a fair bit about its defensive capability with a few calcs, so I'm not going to just post them again and bore everyone else who did a good job and read them the first time. However, to better compare apples to apples, here's some common hit tanking abilities of Voodoom compared to Azelf. The calcs range in their applicability, but suffice it to say, the mon with more defenses has more set up opportunities.

252 SpA Life Orb Technician Stratagem Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Azelf: 242-286 (83.1 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Stratagem Vacuum Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 195-231 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Life Orb Syclant U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 299-354 (102.7 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Syclant Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 211-250 (65.5 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 446-528 (153.2 - 181.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 226-267 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Colossoil Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 300-354 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Colossoil Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 207-244 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Necturna Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 168-198 (57.7 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Necturna Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 223-264 (69.2 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 279-328 (95.8 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 250-295 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 262-310 (90 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 237-279 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Azelf: 145-172 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 130-154 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Azelf: 266-316 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 239-282 (74.2 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
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Yeah, so, the problem is that mons generally have to live a hit from the mon they are meant to check in order to check (provided said mon outspeeds the check, which Doom does for both Clef and Argho). Please see the calcs that were in reach's post that I have quoted below.



Clefable only has a chance of living a +2 Shattered Psyche, and that's assuming Timid, or SpA neutral Nature. If Doom was Modest, that thing is dead. Psyche also easily does the same on Argho. Now look at the speed. Clef is base 60. Argho is base 75. Doom is base 110. For those aforementioned calcs, the sets were defensive. Doom is naturally going to be running a large amount of speed itself to make the most out of its high base stat. They are not outspeeding Doom. With that, please explain to me how, in any manner, Clefable or Argho both plan to live an already set up, +2 MB Voodoom's attack in order to fire back one of their own STABs. It simply won't happen.

I understand you just want to help and are new, so let me explain where I believe your thinking went wrong. Ideally, yes, checks are meant to have free switch ins to be effective. However, if Voodoom is at +2, which only takes one turn with Nasty Plot, they cease being effective. Thus, they can be deemed checks only for a +0 Doom. Unfortunately, the first thing a Doom is going to do in a realistic situation, is switch in on something it can set up on, and then set up while you switch out to whatever you feel is the best check/counter. Of course, this opens up the opportunity for predicts and all that jazz, but at the most basic level, Voodoom has the option to very easily get to +2. As a result, that means that Clefable and Argho very easily lose their check status, since they only function at +0 for NP Doom.

Now, if you say, "Well, then don't give Doom psychic coverage and it won't have Shattered Psyche." The problem is that we're not looking at nerfing this mon, and since it already has Psychic in its movepool, the move won't be thrown out just for the sake of making an extra, highly debated update work better.

As for what I personally favor, I lean with the no Comp. Ability crowd. It does bug me greatly having Volt Absorb and whatever Hidden Ability we choose to both be wholly niche/flavor, but I honestly don't currently see something presented that makes me think "Yeah, Voodoom would be better with this, but not to a point where it's overbearing."As such, I lean No Competitive Ability.
You make a valid point. However, most people aren't likely going to run Modest, as it needs to be as fast as possible to not be outsped. Also, there are other checks to Doom than UnawareMons. Whimsicott and Scarf Lele both outspeed and destroy with Moonblast, as well as Mega Pinsir with Quick Attack and Close Combat, or even Scarf Keldeo-Resolute and Sacred Sword. I agree with you that UnawareMons don't check MB Doom. However, I believe there are things that can outspeed Doom and put it in the ground, and MB only nullifies about 3 relevant Pokémon's checking prowess over this mon. I don't want you to think I'm trying to prove you wrong because I'm mad about the truth and such, so I will admit that with coverage, this thing could be a monster. However, don't count out all of the other things that even with Mold Breaker, destroy Doom.
 

G-Luke

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You make a valid point. However, most people aren't likely going to run Modest, as it needs to be as fast as possible to not be outsped. Also, there are other checks to Doom than UnawareMons. Whimsicott and Scarf Lele both outspeed and destroy with Moonblast, as well as Mega Pinsir with Quick Attack and Close Combat, or even Scarf Keldeo-Resolute and Sacred Sword. I agree with you that UnawareMons don't check MB Doom. However, I believe there are things that can outspeed Doom and put it in the ground, and MB only nullifies about 3 relevant Pokémon's checking prowess over this mon. I don't want you to think I'm trying to prove you wrong because I'm mad about the truth and such, so I will admit that with coverage, this thing could be a monster. However, don't count out all of the other things that even with Mold Breaker, destroy Doom.
The point he was making is that UnawareMons are supposed to threaten or at least cause alot of trouble for Doom. Mold Breaker makes that a non issue.
 
The point he was making is that UnawareMons are supposed to threaten or at least cause alot of trouble for Doom. Mold Breaker makes that a non issue.
I see. At this point I just want to be useful to the updates rather than just hindering the discussion. That's why I am pushing for Mold Breaker so much.
 
You make a valid point. However, most people aren't likely going to run Modest, as it needs to be as fast as possible to not be outsped. Also, there are other checks to Doom than UnawareMons. Whimsicott and Scarf Lele both outspeed and destroy with Moonblast, as well as Mega Pinsir with Quick Attack and Close Combat, or even Scarf Keldeo-Resolute and Sacred Sword. I agree with you that UnawareMons don't check MB Doom. However, I believe there are things that can outspeed Doom and put it in the ground, and MB only nullifies about 3 relevant Pokémon's checking prowess over this mon. I don't want you to think I'm trying to prove you wrong because I'm mad about the truth and such, so I will admit that with coverage, this thing could be a monster. However, don't count out all of the other things that even with Mold Breaker, destroy Doom.
OK, so let's just break this down really quick (Not really quick, I accidentally deleted this entire post because I hit backspace and my comp freaked *anger*). I concede that my use of Modest might not have reflected what would be most used. However, this is Unaware Clefable, not Magic Guard. Any status, rocks, or spikes will take it out. No questions asked.

Next, let's look at those checks. Whimsicott is never seen, so I don't know why you bring it up. It doesn't exactly do much outside of this particular scenario, and I say that as someone who holds it as one of their favorite mons. If it did more than just sub/seed stall, I'd agree with you, but Memento support and stall is about all it does outside of simply being a fairy type. The stuff about pinsir is just flat out wrong. If you are going to allege something, please at least check the calcs to make sure you're right:

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 218-258 (67.9 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
105 Speed on MPinsir vs. 110 on Voodoom, so Voodoom attacks before Return/CC comes out
+2 252 SpA Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 246-289 (90.7 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Keldeo is not something, again, I have ever seen used in this tier. It does work, but I'm assuming Volkraken generally does whatever it does better in most cases (barring this one).
Tapu Lele is also fine. That only leaves us with Keldeo-ish and Lele. That's two good checks. Half of what you mentioned. Let me reiterate something I saw in the Monotype discussion a while ago: Just because every type has one good check doesn't mean that the mon itself isn't broken. The discussion was pertaining to a wallbreaker (Hoopa-U) instead of a sweeper, but it still kind of applies. For example, mega Metagross checks regular Geomancy Xerneas because it isn't OHKOed by Focus Blast or any other move, but it scores the kill with Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch. Does that mean Geomancy Xerneas isn't OP? Not even close. In addition, there's going to be team support. There's going to be 5 other mons to help break whatever your check of choice is. The fewer viable checks, the easier this is to do. Just because one or two exist doesn't make whatever mon inherently not OP.

Lastly, this entire discussion brings up an important question. Do we want Voodoom's "identity" to include the aspect of being the set-up sweeper that breaks Unaware mons? I believe the answer to this question should be a resounding "No." The point of these updates was merely to update. It wasn't to create something completely new. It was established pretty early on in this thread that Voodoom wasn't that far from its end goal. Why should it need to be able to break Unaware mons in addition to possibly a new coverage move and Nasty Plot? I simply don't see a need.

I really don't want to come off as cold, but I have to wonder why you didn't even calc your Pinsir check. Again, I understand that you're new, but there are some parts of arguments that really need to be solid, or else you're just spending someone else's time checking to make sure if you really do have a legitimate point.
 

SHSP

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I'm pushing for no new ability myself (at least not a competitive one). Lightning Rod is a solid ability, as others have stated, and new abilities seem to be pushed just for the sake of being pushed to an extent. Mold Breaker lets us crack Unaware mons, and I'm not a fan of that- why do we need to punish more possible checks when we have a solid ability already? Mold Breaker also hits some other niche targets- hits through Mimikyu's Disguise, ignores Sturdy- although none are as important as breaking Unaware checks. Lightning Rod is totally sufficient enough, and were we to add another competitive ability it should be niche at best. Things checking Doom is a good thing- plus 2 Doom is scary already and we need to be careful with how we handle what can beat it.
 
3 weaknesses makes Voodoom's defensive typing awful? Furthermore you offer no proof via calcs regarding voodoom's inability to take hits and simply expect us to take it as truth? You are calcing against hippowdon, something which is irrelevant. You say you are calcing with hippo because of the neutrality to all hits involved and quite frankly this is exactly what is missing the point. Voodoom's STABs ability to hit a ton of things super effectively is so much better than Azelf's ability to hit things super effectively with only a whimpy psychic. Using a single neutral case target misses the entire point of what Voodoom has going for it in the offensive department.
Again, Fire Blast is hitting harder than Voodoom's Dark STAB, and Dark+Fighting hits way less super effectively than Fire+Psychic. Let's actually look at what Dark+Fighting hits super effectively, shall we? Of the top 50 pokemon in the tier, from Tomohawk all the way down to Mega-Sableye, Voodoom hits precisely 14 super effectively with its STAB, 8 with Fighting and 6 with Dark. Compare that to the 18 different pokemon that mons like Syclant get on their STAB, or even the 12 pokemon that Manaphy hit with literally only Water. Even talking about Azelf (A Pokemon I only brought up because it was both painfully awful and still better than Voodoom), we have 8 on its STAB even without Fire coverage.

There's a HUGE difference between voodoom's 90 / 80 / 80 defenses and Azelf's 75 / 70 / 70. One is above average, one is below. Even more, Voodoom has 3 weaknesses, 3 resists, and two immunities. Azelf has 3 weaknesses, only 2 resists, and only one immunity.
Voodoom has a weakness to Flying(one of the most common offensive typings in the tier and the single most common Z-Move type in the game), Fairy(also a fairly common offensive typing and the most common offensive typing for Pokemon faster than Voodoom), and Fighting (which is not terribly uncommon though far less common than the above), vs Azelf with a weakness to literally just Knock Off and U-Turn in this tier (less common than the above, but still crippling enough that Azelf isn't actually competitive). In addition, Voodoom's resistances are Psychic and Electric, which both tend to show up on mons that are faster than Voodoom and have Dazzling Gleam. The exceptions are Mega-Metagross, which as your calcs show can kill Voodoom with any prior damage, and Aurumoth, which outspeeds and OHKOs with Bug Buzz after a Quiver anyway.

252 SpA Life Orb Technician Stratagem Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Azelf: 242-286 (83.1 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Stratagem Vacuum Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 195-231 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Life Orb Syclant U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 299-354 (102.7 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Syclant Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 211-250 (65.5 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 446-528 (153.2 - 181.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 226-267 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Colossoil Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 300-354 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Colossoil Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 207-244 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Necturna Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 168-198 (57.7 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Necturna Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 223-264 (69.2 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 279-328 (95.8 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 250-295 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 262-310 (90 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 237-279 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Azelf: 145-172 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 130-154 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Azelf: 266-316 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 239-282 (74.2 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Your Voodoom calcs are actually quite questionable. Syclant 2HKOs me and is faster? You said these calcs show things Voodoom can set up on, but if you attempt to set up on any of these mons, you're going to die if they call on the bluff against pretty much any of these mons except Colossoil or Necturna. The Gren kills you after with Water Shuriken, and you can't counteract that with Vacuum Wave because its faster. The Stratagem kills you with two Vacuum Waves and is again faster. Against Megagross, you're risking a speed tie. The calcs for Heatran and Garchomp only work if you've scouted for the set first. Setting up a Nasty Plot and getting Dragon Tailed out is pretty awful and Offensive Heatran smacks it with Magma Storm for a KO after the Magma Storm damage.

Basically, these calcs show me that Voodoom has to get incredibly lucky 50/50s in order to set up on anything except for the very stalliest of stall mons that literally anything can set up on, and then still suffers from getting revenged by most scarfers and fast pokemon. Heck, after showing the Fidgit calc, I was almost surprised you didn't attempt to show how much Alomomola does with Scald.

And this is it stacking badly against a bad mon. I didn't even bring in something like Manaphy, whose literal only downside compared to Voodoom is slightly lower Speed tier (which as your clacs show, really doesn't amount to much for it).
 

snake

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Looking to wrap up this discussion soonish, going to post a slate on abilities. I like the comparison to Azelf, but I'm not sure what the point of this argument is besides trying to figure out which is better at using Nasty Plot. Could I get some clarification?
 

G-Luke

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Again, Fire Blast is hitting harder than Voodoom's Dark STAB, and Dark+Fighting hits way less super effectively than Fire+Psychic. Let's actually look at what Dark+Fighting hits super effectively, shall we? Of the top 50 pokemon in the tier, from Tomohawk all the way down to Mega-Sableye, Voodoom hits precisely 14 super effectively with its STAB, 8 with Fighting and 6 with Dark. Compare that to the 18 different pokemon that mons like Syclant get on their STAB, or even the 12 pokemon that Manaphy hit with literally only Water. Even talking about Azelf (A Pokemon I only brought up because it was both painfully awful and still better than Voodoom), we have 8 on its STAB even without Fire coverage.



Voodoom has a weakness to Flying(one of the most common offensive typings in the tier and the single most common Z-Move type in the game), Fairy(also a fairly common offensive typing and the most common offensive typing for Pokemon faster than Voodoom), and Fighting (which is not terribly uncommon though far less common than the above), vs Azelf with a weakness to literally just Knock Off and U-Turn in this tier (less common than the above, but still crippling enough that Azelf isn't actually competitive). In addition, Voodoom's resistances are Psychic and Electric, which both tend to show up on mons that are faster than Voodoom and have Dazzling Gleam. The exceptions are Mega-Metagross, which as your calcs show can kill Voodoom with any prior damage, and Aurumoth, which outspeeds and OHKOs with Bug Buzz after a Quiver anyway.



Your Voodoom calcs are actually quite questionable. Syclant 2HKOs me and is faster? You said these calcs show things Voodoom can set up on, but if you attempt to set up on any of these mons, you're going to die if they call on the bluff against pretty much any of these mons except Colossoil or Necturna. The Gren kills you after with Water Shuriken, and you can't counteract that with Vacuum Wave because its faster. The Stratagem kills you with two Vacuum Waves and is again faster. Against Megagross, you're risking a speed tie. The calcs for Heatran and Garchomp only work if you've scouted for the set first. Setting up a Nasty Plot and getting Dragon Tailed out is pretty awful and Offensive Heatran smacks it with Magma Storm for a KO after the Magma Storm damage.

Basically, these calcs show me that Voodoom has to get incredibly lucky 50/50s in order to set up on anything except for the very stalliest of stall mons that literally anything can set up on, and then still suffers from getting revenged by most scarfers and fast pokemon. Heck, after showing the Fidgit calc, I was almost surprised you didn't attempt to show how much Alomomola does with Scald.

And this is it stacking badly against a bad mon. I didn't even bring in something like Manaphy, whose literal only downside compared to Voodoom is slightly lower Speed tier (which as your clacs show, really doesn't amount to much for it).
A lot of flaws here. Lets point them out.

Dark/Fighting actually hits more typings supereffectively than Psychic/Fire.

Two, Supereffective coverage is nice and all, but its neutral coverage is what matters. Dark/Fighting is resisted by VERY few Pokemon in the tier, while Psychic/Fire as soo many switchins its hilarious. Any offensive Psychic type that wishes to properly function in OU or CAP needs to hit Heatran and Mega Meta suppereffectively, lest it wants to die or be walled. Azelf's lack of dual STAB also hurts it alot, as coverage can only go soo far. In fact, resists to said coverage are not hard to find either, with Heatran, Navi (Heatproof), most Dark types.

Z-Moves arent worth much in terms of bringing up anyways, as Azelf cannot OHKO the most common Z-Move users and dies to their attacks, supereffective or not. Also, being weak to U-Turn and Knock Off is very bad with that bulk, as Azelf dies when things capture momentum and gets 2HKO'd by support mons. The mere fact that you say that it isnt competitive shuts down your whole argument. Azelf is nowhere near relevant in this metagame, while Voodoom has the potential to do so. Azelf's niche in CAP is a suicide lead, so use it as such.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Your Voodoom calcs are actually quite questionable. Syclant 2HKOs me and is faster? You said these calcs show things Voodoom can set up on, but if you attempt to set up on any of these mons, you're going to die if they call on the bluff against pretty much any of these mons except Colossoil or Necturna. The Gren kills you after with Water Shuriken, and you can't counteract that with Vacuum Wave because its faster. The Stratagem kills you with two Vacuum Waves and is again faster. Against Megagross, you're risking a speed tie. The calcs for Heatran and Garchomp only work if you've scouted for the set first. Setting up a Nasty Plot and getting Dragon Tailed out is pretty awful and Offensive Heatran smacks it with Magma Storm for a KO after the Magma Storm damage.
I never said all of the calcs were directly related to Voodoom setting up. Part of being relevant is KOing things before setting up. Some of the calcs show situations where Voodoom is better off attacking (and KOing the threat) before setting up in situations where Azelf can't do the same (like with heatran, stratagem, etc). I'm not going to waste my time going through every single calc when the intent is obvious if you anaylze it. Azelf isn't relevant because it loses to so many more mons than Voodoom both prior to and after set up; that is what those calcs show.

Now that a significant part of your argument is that " Voodoom has to get incredibly lucky 50/50s" to set up I can throw mention other mons that Voodoom usually can set up against, like Cyclohm, Fidgit, Ferrothorn, Chansey if you're desperate if it's taken prior damage (you can survive 3 toss and KO after 3 turns of set up if absolutely needed with no LO and 2 turns of set up with LO), Slowbro, Rotom-W, Muk-Alola, Toxapex, Venusaur-Mega, Magnezone (though LO variants of Voodoom won't be able to do much after KOing Mag itself), Tangrowth (again, LO versions beware), Gastrodon, and Amoongus (clear smog could be annoying, but unless Amoon spams it, it can get 1 turn in and KO next turn or play around by just hitting Psychic anyway), Zapdos, etc.

Voodoom has chances to set up. More than Azelf. I have no idea why this even needs to be discussed.

Also, I'm really not sure why you're all of a sudden hating on Nasty Plot Voodoom now after the consensus was so incredibly overwhelming in favor of having it in the poll. Don't like it? Too bad. I myself abstained from the vote because I didn't think either option was "better" (just both were "different"). But it's what we have to deal with. With or without giving Voodoom moldbreaker or -insert random mediocre ability here- at this point, it really doesn't change the number of mons Voodoom can set up on so I don't know what you're griping about. The answer is definitely and absolutely that Voodoom on average can set up more easily than Azelf regardless.

If your argument is somehow that Voodoom needs Sludge Wave to set up better, I don't think that's actually how it works (and sorry to snake for mentioning coverage again). Sludge wave would realistically be used as a tool after Voodoom sets up, as in it would set up on non fairy and then have the power to kill the fairy later. And at that point, it just loses defensive checks post-set up :c

---

Anyway, to get back on track, after hearing some more abilities stuff, I think mold breaker is kinda useful when it comes to dealing with things such as multiscale and disguise, but I don't like its ability to manhandle through unaware clefable and arghonaut and I'd rather preserve those defensive checks to Voodoom than let us beat 'em up. So, overall, I don't feel moldbreaker is particularly safe. I don't think Voodoom will have *the easiest* time setting up ever, but it's reasonable to happen, and I don't want it blowing through the entire metagame of base 109 speed and below when it happens.
 
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Rather than adding a third Ability, would it be possible to turn one of Voodoom's existing Abilities into its Hidden? Also, Nasty Plot allows Voodoom to hit a lot for neutral or better with its STABs and Psychic alone. It doesn't need much coverage if it can hit everything for unresisted damage except most Fairies and otherwise mostly irrelevant Pokémon, such as Toxicroak and Heracross. Let Arghonaut and Clefable beat him up when they have to, please. Even if it will remain useless until the updates, we don't want our creation to kick everything else back to Kalos and Hoenn once the revisions are implemented.

Teal;deer? Just turn Volt Absorb into the Hidden Ability.
 
Anyway, to get back on track, after hearing some more abilities stuff, I think mold breaker is kinda useful when it comes to dealing with things such as multiscale and disguise, but I don't like its ability to manhandle through unaware clefable and arghonaut and I'd rather preserve those defensive checks to Voodoom than let us beat 'em up. So, overall, I don't feel moldbreaker is particularly safe. I don't think Voodoom will have *the easiest* time setting up ever, but it's reasonable to happen, and I don't want it blowing through the entire metagame of base 109 speed and below when it happens.
Fair enough.
 

Deck Knight

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Had a discussion with snake and ran some calcs of my own.

Arghonaught checks Voodoom exactly once per match regardless of ability. Shattered Psyche eats away over 3/4 of its health and Life Orb Psychic 2HKOs with rocks on all but the bulkiest sets. Arghonaut is a bad check to a mon likely to be slinging out Psychic at regular intervals. Also, Psychic occasionally gets a SpD drop, and if it does Argho is toast.

Clefable on the other hand is only threatened by Mold Breaker Sludge Bomb. +2 LO Flash Cannon cannot OHKO Clefable whereas Clefable can OHKO back effortlessly. +2 Corkscrew Crash will KO it, but then we're talking Steelium-Z Voodoom.

Long story short of the two Unaware mons, Argho isn't a check anyway and if we want to retain Unaware Clefable as a check, Sludge Bomb is where that line would get drawn.

Now I would note one of our Update Principles is to be as conservative as possible with these updates. As super cool as a viable special attacker with Mold Breaker is, that principle is currently the better justification against slating Mold Breaker than "Save Argh and Clefable as checks" is.
 
OK, so let's just break this down really quick (Not really quick, I accidentally deleted this entire post because I hit backspace and my comp freaked *anger*). I concede that my use of Modest might not have reflected what would be most used. However, this is Unaware Clefable, not Magic Guard. Any status, rocks, or spikes will take it out. No questions asked.

Next, let's look at those checks. Whimsicott is never seen, so I don't know why you bring it up. It doesn't exactly do much outside of this particular scenario, and I say that as someone who holds it as one of their favorite mons. If it did more than just sub/seed stall, I'd agree with you, but Memento support and stall is about all it does outside of simply being a fairy type. The stuff about pinsir is just flat out wrong. If you are going to allege something, please at least check the calcs to make sure you're right:

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 218-258 (67.9 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
105 Speed on MPinsir vs. 110 on Voodoom, so Voodoom attacks before Return/CC comes out
+2 252 SpA Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 246-289 (90.7 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Keldeo is not something, again, I have ever seen used in this tier. It does work, but I'm assuming Volkraken generally does whatever it does better in most cases (barring this one).
Tapu Lele is also fine. That only leaves us with Keldeo-ish and Lele. That's two good checks. Half of what you mentioned. Let me reiterate something I saw in the Monotype discussion a while ago: Just because every type has one good check doesn't mean that the mon itself isn't broken. The discussion was pertaining to a wallbreaker (Hoopa-U) instead of a sweeper, but it still kind of applies. For example, mega Metagross checks regular Geomancy Xerneas because it isn't OHKOed by Focus Blast or any other move, but it scores the kill with Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch. Does that mean Geomancy Xerneas isn't OP? Not even close. In addition, there's going to be team support. There's going to be 5 other mons to help break whatever your check of choice is. The fewer viable checks, the easier this is to do. Just because one or two exist doesn't make whatever mon inherently not OP.

Lastly, this entire discussion brings up an important question. Do we want Voodoom's "identity" to include the aspect of being the set-up sweeper that breaks Unaware mons? I believe the answer to this question should be a resounding "No." The point of these updates was merely to update. It wasn't to create something completely new. It was established pretty early on in this thread that Voodoom wasn't that far from its end goal. Why should it need to be able to break Unaware mons in addition to possibly a new coverage move and Nasty Plot? I simply don't see a need.

I really don't want to come off as cold, but I have to wonder why you didn't even calc your Pinsir check. Again, I understand that you're new, but there are some parts of arguments that really need to be solid, or else you're just spending someone else's time checking to make sure if you really do have a legitimate point.
No, it's fine. I wasn't thinking straight last night. I'm with you. I would still like Mold Breaker if we do give a competitive ability, but at this point I don't care between that and No Competitive Ability.
 

G-Luke

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Is Soundproof currently listed under No Competitive Ability? If not, its a nice but niche ability that Ibthink warrants more support.
 

reachzero

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Bug Buzz immunity, Roar immunity, and (Pixilate?) Hyper Voice immunity are enough to make Soundproof competitive, I'd say.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Arghonaught checks Voodoom exactly once per match regardless of ability. Shattered Psyche eats away over 3/4 of its health and Life Orb Psychic 2HKOs with rocks on all but the bulkiest sets. Arghonaut is a bad check to a mon likely to be slinging out Psychic at regular intervals. Also, Psychic occasionally gets a SpD drop, and if it does Argho is toast.
Arghonaut won't even be switching in at all and that's exactly why it is a check and not a counter. IF Voodoom tries to Psychic it, Argho lives and has a great chance of KOing back... When we're dealing with a mon with super effective stab versus Voodoom, once IS enough because either we end up with a KOed Voodoom or Voodoom switches and Arghonaut loses nothing that turn either :/

Also, when it comes to Arghonaut I want a full disclaimer that.. well... we don't truly know what Argho's set will be. Kinda hard to judge, because of that, but rip. Regardless, Argho lives non Mold Breaker hits and can KO Voodoom back.

252+ Atk Arghonaut Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 288-342 (89.4 - 106.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Voodoom Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arghonaut: 328-388 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arghonaut: 221-260 (53.3 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

There's still potential for Arghonaut to get stronger moves, anyway. But the thing about Drain Punch is, well, you know, Argho gains back HP... meaning that 2HKO from LO Voodoom likely turns into a 3HKO in the event Drain Punch doesn't OHKO anyway.

No Argho's not switching in, but that's simply the nature of checks.
 
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