Category Changes

[askaninjask]

We're going to be implementing changes to the categories we have in Circus pretty soon. Having the games have tiers has been an interesting experiment but it no longer makes sense for us.

Recap: We currently have 5 tiers of games. They are Big, Standard, Expert, Beginner, and Other. The only games that are ever hosted are Big Standard and Other, and the existence of a "Beginner" tier can make it seem like we don't want new users joining regular games (this is the opposite of the impression we want to give).

Instead we are considering making the categories more accurately describe the type of game that is going to be played within the thread. A free for all game may be called "Such and Such Mafia" but have very little to do with the NOC game running in the thread below it.

Also, there are 4 games running right now, 3 of which are "Other". This is shameful.

A suggested breakdown of tiers is as follows:
1) Big
2) Mafia vs Village
3) Free For All
4) Multifaction
5) Role Playing
6) Diplomacy
7) NOC
8) Other

The benefits of having such a category system are that people can easily take a look at similar games that happened in the past and we have a more organized forum in general. And nobody was using the previous category system anyway - every small game is Standard, regardless of complexity.

I'm interested in your opinions on what the new categories should be. If you have suggestions, post them in this thread.

cool thanks

 

[Agape]

Add TCG, Board Game and Video Game categories, drop Diplomacy, I think.

 

[jumpluff]

I think those (maybe with the exception of Diplo and TCG because we've had a bunch of different types of TCG tournies but they're relatively infrequent) can all fall under Other, along with things like bassgame and Be Popular or Die or w/e it was.

 

[vonFiedler]

Diplo IS a board game, that's what I think he was getting at. Video games could go under other though, they never really pan out well.

 

[jumpluff]

Diplo IS a board game, that's what I think he was getting at. Video games could go under other though, they never really pan out well.

Ooohh, I misinterpreted completely. Thanks for explaining.

What other board games do we really play, except for roleplaying games? There hasn't been a chess tourney in ages, for example.

And, yeah, I agree with that last point.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

I'm wondering if so many categories will only end up as a visual mess and it's better to organize them in something like the game list thread for convenience?

 

[jumpluff]

You can click on categories to use them as forum filters though, and part of it is the immediacy of letting people know what a game is supposed to be (I don't care about like 90% of formats/gimmicks but I'll consider playing some bigs for example)

And I'm literally not joking, give me mods for a day once my exams are over and I'll go back and put everything into new categories if people want. I will also infract Crux

 

[askaninjask]

Getting rid of Diplomacy in favor of Board Game seems reasonable to me. We don't always have to play Diplomacy :/

We are, however, approaching 1 diplomacy game being active at all times (and there's one lined up to be hosted as soon as this one is over), which is why I suggested a Diplo category. TCG tournaments are rare enough, I think, that they don't deserve a category of their own.

 

[jumpluff]

It'd be cool if we played other games, but not sure what there is to play. Diplo lends itself really well to drawn-out forum play. I think tournament structure is awful organisationally, and thus rules out many games I know are available to play online, because it usually results in death by inactivity. (P.S. guys let's play board/card games even if we just go back to playing stupid games like Monopoly on Pogo, or better yet come play avalon!!)

We can always add new categories.

 

[Ampharos]

Seconding a Board Games category over a Diplo category since it allows for more flexibility later.

Regarding future games to be run on Circus, I really think we should start doing more real-time mafias - not with a bot, but with a physical host and unique setups. I've always enjoyed playing and hosting them in the past, but they've kind of fallen by the wayside.

 

[Yeti]

RTM are only successful if you have a. enough people on at one time b. nobody who will up and leave. They're also never as complex as forum mafias which makes them sort of static like #fluo mafia. Most of the problem is just getting enough people on at once to play the game and who are interested in playing. Even when times are set the host either ducks out or nobody actually shows up.

Diplo is a common-enough game it could stand to be on its own from other Board Games in said category. We certainly run more of Diplo than anything else. I've always wondered why we never had a Big tag to begin with considering those games are significantly more hyped than any of the Standard categories.

 

[shinyskarmory]

My 2 cents:

We should try to tag only essential, frequently hosted categories-otherwise we'll be awash in tags. For example, I think FFA is not hosted nearly often enough to have its own tag-it's be

Here's my suggestion:

Mafia Games
1. Big. Any game over 20-25 players, really.
2. 2v1. I know it's kind of restricting to be locked into the 2v1 paradigm, but that's what most Smogon mafia games are and it's not going anywhere...
3. NOC. The other traditional mafia format, which had a brief period of popularity about a year ago when there was a drought of regular games. 15 players max on these because otherwise people can be drowned out, intentionally or unintentionally.
4. Other Mafia. Basically, any medium or small sized game that doesn't fit into the above formats or has really unusual roles and/or mechanics that justify it as being not your usual 2v1 or NOC game. Multifaction and FFA games both fit in here, and bastard games as well. Obviously moderator preference is definitely involved on the last one, and there are good arguments for both allowing them and disallowing them, but if they were allowed this'd be the category they're in.

Not Mafia Games
1. Diplomacy. Obviously. Speaking of which, I should really sign up for one this summer...
2. Role Playing. I know nothing at all about Philosopher's Stone Wars but it's definitely talked about all the time here.
3. Other games. For other things.

I have one more suggestion on top of this. Obviously, this has been the first new thread in OSI in a while. I think OSI may benefit from the additional activity if we start pushing postgame threads over here as well. Now, that may make postgame roundups a little harder to find for people not experienced with CM, but it would allow people to more easily find postgames of games they liked so they can learn from the design and improve their play or their hosting.

Obviously, it's all up to you. Thanks for posting this first, though.

 

[starwarsfan]

I have one more suggestion on top of this. Obviously, this has been the first new thread in OSI in a while. I think OSI may benefit from the additional activity if we start pushing postgame threads over here as well. Now, that may make postgame roundups a little harder to find for people not experienced with CM, but it would allow people to more easily find postgames of games they liked so they can learn from the design and improve their play or their hosting.

I could almost see a postgame tag in addition to whatever others are made? I don't really see it being in OSI because from my (limited) knowledge OSI is more for circus policy and game design, and while postgames could fit under the latter, it is not their main purpose.

 

[Ampharos]

I discussed that with aska on IRC, and we came to the conclusion that postgames should be tagged by game type rather than have a postgame tab, since it would make it easier to find the specific postgame you need. That's an interesting idea regarding putting them in OSI, but idk if that would make them too incognito for newbies or what.

 

[shinyskarmory]

I discussed that with aska on IRC, and we came to the conclusion that postgames should be tagged by game type rather than have a postgame tab, since it would make it easier to find the specific postgame you need. That's an interesting idea regarding putting them in OSI, but idk if that would make them too incognito for newbies or what.

Well, all you have to do to fix that is to post in your game thread that "postgame will be on the Office of Strategic Influence subforum, our dedicated mafia discussion forum. Go check it out!"

And on the tags: We can apply a "recent" tag on postgames for games that have just ended, then remove it after a week or two has passed. Or we can pull it when discussion in the postgame thread ends.

 

[jumpluff]

I love the idea of keeping postgames in OSI. It makes semantic sense imo. Might make them a little harder to notice but nothing stopping anyone from cross linking + game directory. Whether it makes practical sense... I don't know if there's a real problem with where they are now, but I'd prefer them all to be in one place as I love to reread postgames. I usually use the directory for that. Forum software change prolly broke shit though.

I don't see a need to condense the tags—what's really relevant, rather than the number of tags, is how much each tag will be used. I'm not actually sure how many FFA games we've had and am about to leave for uni so I can't check. Multifaction, however, encompasses a variety of formats and is seen so frequently it requires its own tag shinyskarmory. It's the dominant format with 2v1. I think I'd rather call 2v1 tag Standard; most big games are either multifaction or 2v1 and the distinction is really the size. Standard refers to both size and traditional Smogon style.

If there aren't many FFA games they can go under Other or we can have a Multifaction/FFA tag. They are both FFA games at least abstractly, just one is team-based.

 

[shinyskarmory]

I love the idea of keeping postgames in OSI. It makes semantic sense imo. Might make them a little harder to notice but nothing stopping anyone from cross linking + game directory. Whether it makes practical sense... I don't know if there's a real problem with where they are now, but I'd prefer them all to be in one place as I love to reread postgames. I usually use the directory for that. Forum software change prolly broke shit though.

I don't see a need to condense the tags—what's really relevant, rather than the number of tags, is how much each tag will be used. I'm not actually sure how many FFA games we've had and am about to leave for uni so I can't check. Multifaction, however, encompasses a variety of formats and is seen so frequently it requires its own tag shinyskarmory. It's the dominant format with 2v1. I think I'd rather call 2v1 tag Standard; most big games are either multifaction or 2v1 and the distinction is really the size. Standard refers to both size and traditional Smogon style.

If there aren't many FFA games they can go under Other or we can have a Multifaction/FFA tag. They are both FFA games at least abstractly, just one is team-based.

Well, even though putting every postgame in one place would be cool, doing it retroactively for all the Circus mafia games would be a ton of work. Maybe we could move over the postgames of Big games and well-respected games of other types like Handicapable and Metroidvainia/Metroid Prime 2, and then move other games over only by request? That would lead into posting new postgames in OSI pretty well without being too much work.

I'm also in support for a combined Multifaction/FFA tag since both of them are similar nontraditional archetypes and have a greater tactical and negotiation focus then you expect in normal Smogon mafia.

 

[askaninjask]

I actually think that makes sense. Free for all and Multifaction should go under some sort of Nontraditional tag. They're similar enough and it helps clean up the tag system. And that way, when we come up with the next format for games, they can also be included in the "nontraditional" tag.

Any suggestions on what to call it? I don't like "Other Mafia" because those games are so different from irl mafia, and "nontraditional" is a mouthful.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Advanced mafia? Strategic mafia? Neo Mafia? I'm not good at this, but this is probably the right direction.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Tactical Mafia. IIRC, The first multifaction (Metal Gear-themed, IIRC) was called a tactical game quite prominently, and it fits now.

 

[askaninjask]

Alright, so the new categories would then be:

1) Big
2) Mafia vs Village
3) Tactical
4) NOC
5) Board Game
6) Role Playing
7) Other

with postgames either being posted in the main Circus subforum with the same heading as the game or in OSI, at the host's discretion. This sound good?

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Or post the postgame in the same thread and link in retroactively in the OP. I never was a fan of the make a new thread way of doing things.

But yeah, that sounds fine. People might get confused about what's mafia and what isn't but I don't see a good solution to that. Making a mafia subforum would probably be just as ugly.

 

[jumpluff]

Tactical is the only other one I like over Multifaction/FFA, but it's blurry what goes in it. That's not a bad thing, though, as long as people know what's supposed to go in it generally, and then it can absorb a bunch of other experimental games. I might use colours behind the categories (one colour for mafia, one colour for roleplaying, one colour for other shit, for example) or something else to differentiate we're referring to tactical mafia games. (Sorry, US!) But we can always just fix tags if people mistag their thread.

Don't think there's much point letting people post their postgames in OSI at their discretion if you let them do the old way too, it's just going to get cluttered and mixed up if anyone does or else remain the way it is. If we let them post it in Circus though I agree that we should tag them by game type and use the game directory to link to the postgames.

 

[shinyskarmory]

Just one last question:

What tag should you use if you (hypothetically) are hosting a mafia game, if not knowing the setup is an important balancing factor of the game?

Would it be more appropriate to use Tactical or other?