Dhelmise Discussion

I can really see this guy becoming one the best Spinners and Anti Spinners of the OU honestly.

Ability: Steelworker
Nature: Relaxed (0 Speed IV)
EVs: 252 HP + 196 Def + 60 SpDef
Item: Assault Vest
Moves: Gyro Ball + Earthquake + Giga Drain + Rapid Spin

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Dhelmise: 144-172 (41.8 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Dhelmise Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 272-322 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Dhelmise: 146-174 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Dhelmise Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 164-194 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


And I'm not even talking about the other Spinners such as Kabutops, Donphan, Tentacruel, Hitmontop, ...
Gengar's nerf also helps him a lot when it comes to Rapid Spinning, now being able to go for the OHKO EQ on the switch.
Welcome to smogon! Ü

Your EV spread is interesting, but if you could elaborate on it and explain what it does (beating spinners, perhaps?), it'd be great. Assault Vest will probably be its main item as it makes Dhelmise a competant bulky spinner AND spinblocker. However, despite Gyro Ball being generally effective on a slowmon such as Dhelmise, Anchor Shot should be the Steel-type (pseudo) STAB-to-go in all scenarios ue to its invaluable trapping effect. Giga Drain, even though it gets STAB too, is coming from an uninvested base 86 SpA, which is pretty weak. Power Whip is its best Grass-type STAB move and should be used if a Grass-type move is needed (for example, with your EV spread, Power Whip easily OHKOes bulky Starmie while also 2HKOing Excadrill). Also, why would you want to hit Gengar on the switch (and why would Gengar hard-switch into Dhelmise in the first place?) with Earthquake when you could hit it with a STAB Shadow Claw/Phantom Force?

Aside from that, I think Dhelmise would make a neat little addition to the OU metagame (or maybe UU, we'll have to wait and see how it unfolds) where hazard clearers (let alone spinblockers) are in great demand.
 
148 EVs and a +Attack nature allow you to 2HKO Mega Sableye, the only Pokemon that really stops you from spinning.

148+ Atk Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This thing looks like a fairly reliable spinner regardless of what tier it ends up in.
 
As a spin blocker it can be decent as it hits a bit harder than Trevenant.

However, as a spinner itself it faces problems with gourg-s. Even with shadow claw and +Attack nature it doesn't KO Gourg, while it can burn and wear Dhelmise down with foul play and synthesis. You would need to run enough speed to 2HKO it, but then it would take away a good amount of bulk to where it may not be able to switch into Starmie or other threats as easily.
 
As a spin blocker it can be decent as it hits a bit harder than Trevenant.

However, as a spinner itself it faces problems with gourg-s. Even with shadow claw and +Attack nature it doesn't KO Gourg, while it can burn and wear Dhelmise down with foul play and synthesis. You would need to run enough speed to 2HKO it, but then it would take away a good amount of bulk to where it may not be able to switch into Starmie or other threats as easily.
I really don't think Gourg-s and Dhelmise are going to run into each other very often in the same tiers.
 
Welcome to smogon! Ü

Your EV spread is interesting, but if you could elaborate on it and explain what it does (beating spinners, perhaps?), it'd be great. Assault Vest will probably be its main item as it makes Dhelmise a competant bulky spinner AND spinblocker. However, despite Gyro Ball being generally effective on a slowmon such as Dhelmise, Anchor Shot should be the Steel-type (pseudo) STAB-to-go in all scenarios ue to its invaluable trapping effect. Giga Drain, even though it gets STAB too, is coming from an uninvested base 86 SpA, which is pretty weak. Power Whip is its best Grass-type STAB move and should be used if a Grass-type move is needed (for example, with your EV spread, Power Whip easily OHKOes bulky Starmie while also 2HKOing Excadrill). Also, why would you want to hit Gengar on the switch (and why would Gengar hard-switch into Dhelmise in the first place?) with Earthquake when you could hit it with a STAB Shadow Claw/Phantom Force?

Aside from that, I think Dhelmise would make a neat little addition to the OU metagame (or maybe UU, we'll have to wait and see how it unfolds) where hazard clearers (let alone spinblockers) are in great demand.
Haha, first of all thanks man ! As a french it's always tricky to subscribe to an english speaking forum, but I'm a long time follower.
Now, it's true that my post might need a bit more explanations. This set aims at being a fantastic Anti Spinner (especially made for Starmie) that has access to a decent Rapid Spin, coupled with a gigantic bulk that enables him to switch on many Threats (Excadrill, Starmie, Keldeo, Breloom, Garchomp, Scarf Landorus, etc...) which is already awesome by itself. But THIS set would fail trying to trap with Anchor Shot, as it's very easy for your opponent to just switch into a Skarm or Ferro for example, which would also force you to switch (Anchor Shot + HP Fire might do the trick though, but on a more offensive oriented set). I just feel like Gyro Ball is going to be a more often reliable move here as it does some really solid damage (even with 0 Atk EV) to fast sweepers or Dragon dancers for example, that will still struggle to OHKO Dhelmise even at +1. A Trapper set with Anchor Shot is very viable, but with different EVs, item and moves, it's really not the goal of this particular set.

Same goes for Giga Drain. I think it is a superior option here on pokes like Hippo, Physically Defensive Rotom-W or Slowbro, also giving you the opportunity to safely switch on Scalds without being afraid of the burn too much. To follow your example, Giga Drain still 2HKOes even Bulky Starmie and heals back any damage that it can potentially do to you, without being afraid of being stalled by recover if he burned you on a scald (as Power Whip is barely going to be a 2HKO if you are burned).

But for the Gengar part, you Ninja'd me man. I got overhyped when I did this post and just added it recklessly at the end, but I also figured out very quickly that it was stupid as Gyro Ball already recks him. (imagining that Gengar would try to Spin Block Dhelmise...)
 
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I can't see this running Phantom Force over Shadow Claw. If Substitute Gengar is still a thing, it can switch in to your Phantom Force, Sub, and then outspeed and Shadow Ball you next turn.
 
I can't see this running Phantom Force over Shadow Claw. If Substitute Gengar is still a thing, it can switch in to your Phantom Force, Sub, and then outspeed and Shadow Ball you next turn.
Phantom Force is good in doubles since it breaks through protect
 
He is good as a spinner IF you can predict when the spinblocker will come. Use Anchor Shot, lock the Gengar / other into place and switch onto your Scarf TTar and laugh maniacally as they can't double switch.
Seems decent, but lack of recovery (or even Leech Seed) + only decent defenses will not do it any favor. He does have a niche in OU, but I don't think it will be a staple anytime soon.
 
He is good as a spinner IF you can predict when the spinblocker will come. Use Anchor Shot, lock the Gengar / other into place and switch onto your Scarf TTar and laugh maniacally as they can't double switch.
Seems decent, but lack of recovery (or even Leech Seed) + only decent defenses will not do it any favor. He does have a niche in OU, but I don't think it will be a staple anytime soon.
That sounds fun, but I don't see the point when you can just beat the Ghost on the expected switch instead of Anchor Shotting it.

As Some Random Freak stated, you can 2HKO Mega Sableye with Power Whip if you run a +Atk nature and 148 EVs. Then Shadow Claw might be the best choice for the second offensive move as you can 2HKO Cofagrigus or max HP Aegislash (if it makes a return in OU) and OHKO any other Ghost type. It means that, with only 2 different moves, you will be able to kill absolutely any Anti Spinner ! (which is something that you can't do with Anchor Shot/Pursuit, as Mega Sableye or Cofagrigus for example can Will O Wisp you on the switch and stall you to death)
 
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6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Say - maybe you could fit Specs Giga Drain + Switcheroo in there somewhere? I get that Anchor Shot/Rapid Spin/Phantom Force are going to be on a lot of sets though.
Still a bit salty this thing isn't a Steel type though, but eh - I get it.
 
Is a CB set viable?

Dhelmise@ CB
Steelworker
Adamant/Brave
252 HP/252 Atk
-Switcheroo
-Anchor Shot/Gyro Balll
-Power Whip
-Phantom Force/Shadow Claw

Rapid Spin is interesting, since it can pop spin blockers with its STAB ghost moves.70/100/90 isn't too shabby
 
Is a CB set viable?

Dhelmise@ CB
Steelworker
Adamant/Brave
252 HP/252 Atk
-Switcheroo
-Anchor Shot/Gyro Balll
-Power Whip
-Phantom Force/Shadow Claw

Rapid Spin is interesting, since it can pop spin blockers with its STAB ghost moves.70/100/90 isn't too shabby
 
I really don't think Gourg-s and Dhelmise are going to run into each other very often in the same tiers.
Tapu Bulu outclasses this guy in any purely offensive role. The only thing that differentiates it is Rapid Spin and for CB, Switheroo. As a spinner itself, Tsareena gives it a lot of competition from being faster and slightly bulkier. It may not have the same coverage and doesn't hit as hard, but has actual utility moves such as recovery, U-turn, screens, and aromatherapy. Dhelmise doesn't even get Will-O-Wisp.

I don't think it is really a stretch to say Gourg and this guy could be a tier apart.
 
Dhelmise @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Steel Worker
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Atk / 4 Def / 76 SpA / 140 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Power Whip
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Protect
Note:
- +2 68+ SpA Dhelmise Flash Cannon OHKO Tapu Bulu with 252 Hp / 4 SpD
- 252+ SpA Tapu Fini Ice Beam only deal 48.5 - 57.6%
- +2 Power Whip OHKO Tapu Fini with 252 HP
- +2 Power Whip OHKO Garchomp with 0 HP / 4 Def
- +2 Power Whip OHKO Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele
- Basically.... Aegislash 0.5 or 2.0?
 
I predict Dhelmise will be a staple in VGC due to its typing and Steelworker. Although I haven't run precise calculations yet, my rough ones seem to indicate that Dhelmise can check/counter ALL the Tapus. It resists Water, Electric and Grass, and it can hit all the Tapus bar Tapu Koko for effectively STAB SE damage with Power Whip and Anchor Shot alone.

252+ Atk Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Comfey (Bisharp changed to Fairy-Type) 110-130 (63.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(110, 110, 112, 114, 114, 116, 118, 118, 120, 122, 122, 124, 126, 126, 128, 130)

I put a Fairy-Type Physically defensive Bisharp up against Dhelmise for testing. I kept the same 65/100 physical bulk for testing purposes. We can almost conclude that Comfey will get murdered and Tapu Bulu will most likely be 2HKOd with Anchor Shot.
 

Pikachu315111

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Okay... I think I won't understand this thing until I read its Dex entry (which I'm trying not to spoil myself with).

Ghost/GRASS (as if we don't have enough of them now), yet an Ability that gives it Steel STAB. Its physical focused with bulk, and has low enough Speed for Trick Room.

Has STAB for all three Types, though kind of wished it another Grass option. Also there's Earthquake, Return, Brick Break, Aerial Ace, Brutal Swing, and Rock Slide. It get a lot of nice Special Attacks but can't make use of them. Utilities are Switcheroo, Rapid Spin, and Embargo; surprised it doesn't get Iron Defense.

Weird how it has the same type combination and its Signature move is like a Steel-type version of Decidueye. They're different of course, just seems odd they'd do within the same generation.
 

Disjunction

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trapping is broken. this thing has the potential to beat just about every Stealth Rock user in OU right now 1v1 with the exception of U-turn Lando and Heatran. I think people are seriously underrating how awesome it is that it has such a strong pseudo-STAB that can force the opponent to stay in against you.

Dhelmise @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpA
Brave Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Rapid Spin
- Power Whip / Toxic
- Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice

EVs and item are probably tentative and could be replaced with better options depending on team and how the meta shapes up. More Defense could be better for taking on, say, Garchomp or Terrakion or something, but I've run a total of zero calcs considering this is just a proof of concept.

Power Whip seems useful as a stronger spammable STAB, but Toxic has a stronger effect on Tank Chomp and Lando-T. HP Fire is obviously for Ferro, but you probably still have a strong shot at beating ferro anyways due to your low speed making gyro ball weaker and your immunity to Leech Seed.
 

Nalei

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is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
mostly bc the whip does the same thing anchor and giga already achieve, but now you can't heal off potential rockers / switch-ins / waters (also, whenever bank goes up again, there'd be the problem of procing helm / skin from lando n chomp). you 2hko ttar with a defensive set regardless of the move choice; the only mon that'll be an issue is cune, but hey the mon that doesn't want to get burned shouldn't be checking cune in the first place.
Uhh... 120 base power vs 75 base power. 131 attack vs 86 special attack. The damage gap is frankly absurd and there's no reason to run it whatsoever. And you think that Giga Drain can 2HKO ttar? You're mad. Max SpA (why would you run that?) doesn't get a 2HKO vs offensive ttar while power whip ohkos it. (I know that was absurdly late, just saying...) Anyways...

A banded set seems pretty monstrous as a wallbreaker, but being choice locked into Rapid Spin isn't exactly ideal. Then again, POWER...
Dhelmise @ Choice Band
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Anchor Shot/Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Shadow Claw/Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
Could also see some kind of bulkier set working out. Anchor Shot+Swords Dance would be pretty good, but the lack of priority paired with low speed really kills it.
 
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Uhh... 120 base power vs 75 base power. 131 attack vs 86 special attack. The damage gap is frankly absurd and there's no reason to run it whatsoever. And you think that Giga Drain can 2HKO ttar? You're mad. Max SpA (why would you run that?) doesn't get a 2HKO vs offensive ttar while power whip ohkos it. (I know that was absurdly late, just saying...) Anyways...
Was referring to Anchor Shot 2hkoing bro
 
Good god I love this thing.
Basically 3 STABs and a pretty good offensive set, personally I'd say its worth giving it an Assault Vest and just go for it.
 

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