Resource Don't Use This, Use That

sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
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Don't Use This, Use That
Little Cup Edition



The purpose of this thread is to discuss common sets that are seen as overrated and suggest better alternatives. There are a lot of Pokemon and sets in the usage stats that are ineffective, and we should raise awareness that these sets are not optimal. Furthermore, there are a few Pokemon that don't even deserve to be in the tier because they simply do not work effectively. There are certain Pokemon being used on the ladder in a way that reduces their viability. For example, Aipom is sometimes seen on ladder with a Fake Out + Last Resort combo, which is not effective in the metagame because it lacks coverage and can be easily stopped by any ghost type, though that does not mean Aipom is bad, as the Life Orb Wallbreaker set is one of the scariest sets in LC. You can also suggest alternative Pokemon that outclass another in a certain role, such as suggesting Staryu for Rapid Spinning instead of Kabuto. If you think a Pokemon or set is wrongfully being accused of being ineffective, you are encouraged to discuss why you think that way.
*Please do not use this thread to bash Pokemon, try to educate the playerbase and teach them what not to use. Any offensive posts will be deleted/edited.

Please try to format your posts like the example post below.

Don't Use: Last Resort



Aipom @ Life Orb
Level: 5
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 76 HP / 116 Atk / 76 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Last Resort

Why it's bad:

While this set may seem like a good idea at first glance, it is actually a horrible set. First of all, this set has no coverage at all which means that it can easily be stopped by most steel, rock, and ghost types which can easily tank one or two Last Resorts and then either set up or kill Aipom. Omanyte and Tirtouga, two of the tiers most fearsome sweepers can come in and set up on this set. Additionaly, Ghost types are immune to both Fake Out and Last Resort, which means that Gastly can come in for free and set up a Substitute which lets it fire off powerful Sludge Bombs and Shadow Balls safely. Overall, this set is has a lot of weaknesses and is quite bad.

Use: Life Orb Wallbreaker



Aipom @ Life Orb
Level: 5
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 76 HP / 116 Atk / 76 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fury Swipes
- Knock Off
- Brick Break
- Fake Out


Why it's better:

This set is much better for a couple of reasons. First of all, the way LC rolls work make it so that Fury Swiper with Skill Link does more damage than Last Resort!

116 Atk Life Orb Aipom Fury Swipes (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 5-20 (18.5 - 74%)

116 Atk Life Orb Aipom Last Resort vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%)

As one can see, Fury Swipes hits harder than Last Resort does thanks to Skill Link allowing it to always hit 5 times, and with a higher chance to crit due to Fury Swipes being a multi hit move, Aipom becomes one of the hardest hitting wallbreakers in the LC metagame. It also has Knock Off which can cripple bulky mons that enjoy switching into Aipom, making it easier for Aipom and its teammates to kill it. Knock Off can also hit Ghost mons such as Gastly and Pumpkaboo, making it very hard to switch into it. Finally, Brick Break is used as coverage to hit steels and rocks such as Onix and Pawniard. Overall, this set is much stronger than the Last Resort set because it hits harder and actually has coverage.


Some things that we would like discussed to begin:
  • Sun and Moon mons.


also ill like ur post if you post something pls post
 
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Let's talk about Gen VII Ground types that can become defensive walls with the right level of abuse. Don't use...

Sandygast @ Eviolite
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 126 HP / 36 Def / 186 SpAtk / 156 SpDef
Modest Nature
- Shore Up
- Giga Drain
- Destiny Bond
- Stone Edge

While Sandygast may initially seem enticing because of its massive movepool (with more than enough coverage), the thing that kills its viability is 1. Its ability, and 2. Its stats, particularly Speed. Its ability necessitates it needs to absorb a super effective move to gain Defense, and it's speed ensures that it'll always be beat up before it does anything. Sandygast is subpar.


...use...

Mudbray @ Berry Juice
Ability: Stamina
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 156 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- Heavy Slam

Mudbray, unlike its other Gen VII defensive Ground type, gets a boost in Defense by 1 if it's hit by any attack. When you also throw in great natural bulk, Berry Juice for recovery and a huge Attack stat, you get Mudbray. This thing is ready, willing and able to punish threatening mons like Pawniard, Ponyta, Mareanie, Porygon and Cutiefly (with Heavy Slam) with its varied movepool, all the while being fat as all getup. It's pretty darn good.
 
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Camden

Hey, it's me!
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Don't use...

Sandygast @ Berry Juice/Eviolite
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 126 HP / 252 Def / 126 SpDef
Modest Nature
- Shore Up
- Giga Drain
- Destiny Bond
- Shadow Ball

While Sandygast may initially seem enticing because of its massive movepool (with more than enough coverage), the thing that kills its viability is 1. Its ability, and 2. Its stats, particularly Speed. Its ability necessitates it needs to absorb a super effective move to gain Defense, and it's speed ensures that it'll always be beat up before it does anything. Sandygast is subpar.


...use...

Mudbray @ Berry Juice
Ability: Stamina
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 156 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- Heavy Slam

Mudbray, unlike its other Gen VII defensive Ground type, gets a boost in Defense by 1 if it's hit by any attack. When you also throw in great natural bulk, Berry Juice for recovery and a huge Attack stat, you get Mudbray. This thing is ready, willing and able to punish threatening mons like Pawniard, Ponyta, Mareanie, Porygon and Cutiefly (with Heavy Slam) with its varied movepool, all the while being fat as all getup. It's pretty darn good.
These two sets don't perform the same roles, so this comparison doesn't really work. Also, while that's a sub-optimal Sandyghast set, it's not really the purpose of this thread. This is a thread designed to take established or logical sub-optimal sets and provide another set, either of the same mon but improved, or of something different that is doing nearly the exact same thing. In this case, that Sandyghast set is sub-optimal because the EVs don't properly reflect a typical LC spread. Also, I'm not sure if I would run that sort of set. You're definitely running Eviolite on it because it has Shore Up, but you've still left yourself open to Flying-types. The Mudbray set is fine, though.
 
don't use

Fomantis
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
- Leaf Storm

Honestly, I don't know exactly what set this thing was running when I encountered it on the ladder beyond this. Might have been scarf or something, idk. Point is, I've seen this a few times on the ladder and there is absolutely 0 reason run run this when you can run...


Snivy
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
- Leaf Storm

Snivy is flat-out just better in every way, no matter what set you run. Snivy is faster, bulkier, and has access to Knock Off. There is just no reason to run Fomantis when Snivy exists. (and even if it didn't honestly, Fomantis kinda blows)
 

Altariel von Sweep

They Who Laugh Last
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
For Munchlax

Don't use...


Munchlax @ Berry Juice
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam / Return
- Recycle
- Fire Punch / Pursuit
- Earthquake


Why it's bad: This set was an idea if you wanted to stop Fire and Ice-types attacks, trap some Ghost-types like Gastly, and kill many threats, but now with the rise of Cutiefly's usage, this set struggles against Special Attackers that received its boosts like Gothita, Z-Porygon (or normal Porygon), forcing Munchlax to lock itself into Recycle to keep alive, and then falling.

Just use...


Munchlax @ Berry Juice
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Atk / 196 Def / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Whirlwind
- Fire Punch / Pursuit
- Body Slam
- Recycle


Why it's better: This set is the best answer to Cutiefly and the aforementioned Special Attackers, being able to take a lot of special hits, and acting as a setup fodder thanks to Whirlwind. It maybe lost its offensive utility, but with 76 EVs in Attack it can deal some strong hits, and even KO Alola-Sandshrew and Snover. Also, it can still work as a Pursuit trapper, tanking better the hits from those Pokemon afraid of it.
 
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These two sets don't perform the same roles, so this comparison doesn't really work. Also, while that's a sub-optimal Sandyghast set, it's not really the purpose of this thread. This is a thread designed to take established or logical sub-optimal sets and provide another set, either of the same mon but improved, or of something different that is doing nearly the exact same thing. In this case, that Sandyghast set is sub-optimal because the EVs don't properly reflect a typical LC spread. Also, I'm not sure if I would run that sort of set. You're definitely running Eviolite on it because it has Shore Up, but you've still left yourself open to Flying-types. The Mudbray set is fine, though.
I can never do EV spreads right. That, and all of your points are entirely correct. Thanks for the input. I've edited the set to now correctly demonstrate the inadequacies of Sandygast.
 
don't use

Fomantis
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
- Leaf Storm

Honestly, I don't know exactly what set this thing was running when I encountered it on the ladder beyond this. Might have been scarf or something, idk. Point is, I've seen this a few times on the ladder and there is absolutely 0 reason run run this when you can run...


Snivy
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
- Leaf Storm

Snivy is flat-out just better in every way, no matter what set you run. Snivy is faster, bulkier, and has access to Knock Off. There is just no reason to run Fomantis when Snivy exists. (and even if it didn't honestly, Fomantis kinda blows)
Fomantis learns defog. LS/Defog/Synthesis/Hidden Power isn't a completely outclassed set.
 
Fomantis learns defog. LS/Defog/Synthesis/Hidden Power isn't a completely outclassed set.
It's still pretty niche, and it's slow. Doduo or Pikipek could easily KO it with Brave Bird. If it was faster, HP Rock could probably OHKO the aphormentioned birds. Unfortunately, its Speed and its frailty holds it back from any major role besides a decent offensive defogger.
 
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Fiend

someguy
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Leader
Don't use this:


Charmander @ Firium Z
Ability: Solar Power
Level: 5
EVs: 44 HP / 12 Def / 200 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Flamethrower / Ancient Power?

While this initially seems strong, Charmander has so many downsides that this idea is poor. Z-Sunny Day is great for +1 Speed plus boosting Fire attacks in sun and activating Solar Power. Fire Blast hits hard of course, but if anything resists Fire Charmander is almost guaranteed to lose. Moreover, Charmander has horrid defenses, which makes it prone to taking an obscene amount of damage to set up. Being weak to all hazards doesn't help this either, making Mienfoo's Drain Punch leave it with an astounding 2 turns to attack. Not to mention Charmader's only good enough speed leaves it prone to being revenge killed by Choice Scarf Pokemon. Even weak priority such as Fake Out from Mienfoo or Sucker Punch from Gastly is enough to pick Charmander off from decent HP.

Use that:


Ponyta @ Firium Z
Ability: Flame Body
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Hypnosis

Ponyta has naturally greater bulk and far better coverage. At the price of raw power, Ponyta has more Speed and longevity, making it harder to maneuver around. Ponyta outpaces or speed ties all relevant Choice Scarfers at +1 making revenge killing it extremely difficult. Without Solar Power wearing Ponyta down, priority becomes less of an issue too. The difference between Solar Beam and a Hidden Power as the coverage move against Water-types is astounding, allowing Ponyta to OHKO Staryu and Chinchou after rocks. Ponyta's Hypnosis also allows you to render a check or counter useless for the time being, which allows Ponyta to be even more irksome.
 
I've seen this a few times. Stop it.

Don't use this:

Pumpkaboo-Super @ Ghostium-Z
Ability: Frisk
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 244 SpA / 188 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick-Or-Treat
Use that:

Pumpkaboo-Small @ Ghostium-Z
Ability: Frisk
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 36 Def / 164 SpA / 156 SpD / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick-Or-Treat

You get better stats using Pumpkaboo small because of EV distribution. You get 22 HP, 14 Def, 14 SpA, 12 SpD, 14 Spe with Super. You get 21 HP, 14 Def, 14 SpA, 14 SpD, 14 Spe. Alternatively, you can drop points around to increase SpA or Speed if you want to outpace shit like Scarf Amaura or maybe get some KOes that I don't know about.
 

NabboCheTesta

Gniubbo come sempre
I've seen this a few times. Stop it.

Don't use this:

Pumpkaboo-Super @ Ghostium-Z
Ability: Frisk
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 244 SpA / 188 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick-Or-Treat
Use that:

Pumpkaboo-Small @ Ghostium-Z
Ability: Frisk
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 36 Def / 164 SpA / 156 SpD / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick-Or-Treat

You get better stats using Pumpkaboo small because of EV distribution. You get 22 HP, 14 Def, 14 SpA, 12 SpD, 14 Spe with Super. You get 21 HP, 14 Def, 14 SpA, 14 SpD, 14 Spe. Alternatively, you can drop points around to increase SpA or Speed if you want to outpace shit like Scarf Amaura or maybe get some KOes that I don't know about.
Tbh I find trick-or-treat boo pretty meh. I would rather use another sweeper which is not weak to sucker punch and can actually ko stuff.
 

Conni

katharsis
DON'T USE THIS

Pumpkaboo-Super @ Eviolite
Level: 5
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 204 HP / 36 Def / 4 SpA / 236 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful / Sassy Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Synthesis
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak / Fire Blast


USE THIS LOL

Pumpkaboo-Super @ Eviolite
Level: 5
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 204 HP / 36 Def / 4 SpA / 236 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis
- Will-O-Wisp
- Fire Blast / Shadow Ball

Pumpkaboo-XL is better off used as a super bulky special attacker due to Mudbray, which can completely wall it and gain insane Stamina boosts from Pumpkaboo-XL's formerly best choice against it: Bullet Seed. Giga Drain hits Mudbray better, and also forms as a somewhat reliable recovery option. Shadow Ball is a better STAB than Shadow Sneak minus the priority and Fire Blast stays the same. Calm makes Pumpkaboo-XL hit harder, because Careful nature on a special attacker is just stupid.
 

Fiend

someguy
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Leader
So apparently LC EVs are hard, and even LCers are making these mistakes. I was building with some non LCers though, and these stood out to me.


Don't use this:

Staryu @ Eviolite
Ability: Analytic
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 116 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature

Use that:

Staryu @ Eviolite
Ability: Analytic
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Def / 116 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature

This is far bulkier since you hit an Eviolite number in Defense now. Don't invest into HP instead ffs.


Don't use this:

Vullaby @ Eviolite / Berry Juice
Ability: Weak Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 116 Spe
Modest Nature

Use that:

Vullaby @ Eviolite / Berry Juice
Ability: Weak Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 236 SpA / 116 Spe
Modest Nature

So this is the opposite of Staryu's, where at first we tried for the Eviolite number while here we are just aiming for not hitting an SR number. And the bulk here is largely the same, but after 116 EVs into HP is a little bulkier.

Also:
[5:24 PM] ZoroDark: i forgot to give ev's in def stats on pawn for the first 3 weeks in spl last yera

Don't do that either.
 
DON'T USE THIS

Carvanha @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 9 HP
- Protect
- Crunch
- Waterfall
- Zen Headbutt
USE THIS

Carvanha @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 9 HP
- Protect
- Crunch
- Waterfall
- Psychic Fangs

It's better than Zen Headbutt in nearly every possible way. Same relative power, but no miss chance and a way to break opposing Aurora Veils/Screens. All you really miss out on is flinching, but Waterfall already does that on its own.
 
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sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
DON'T USE THIS

Carvanha @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Crunch
- Waterfall
- Zen Headbutt
USE THIS

Carvanha @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Crunch
- Waterfall
- Psychic Fangs

It's better than Zen Headbutt in nearly every possible way. Same relative power, but no miss chance and a way to break opposing Aurora Veils/Screens. All you really miss out on is flinching, but Waterfall already does that on its own.

Just to be nitpicky, but the HP EVs should be 0 and the HP IVs should be 9. This allows Carvahna to only take 1 damage from Life Orb. The way you currently have them makes Carvahana take 2 damage which makes it die a lot faster.
 
Don't use this:

Makuhita (In general)


Use this


Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 116 Atk / 156 Def / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up



Timburr outclasses Makuhita in everyway. Every single stat is higher, it gets the same abilities but Drain punch for recovery. It's bulkier and stronger. Just overall there is no reason to use Makuhita while Timburr is around. Except the powerful Belly Drum Bullet Punch
 
Don't use this:


Fletchling
Level: 5
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 76 HP / 200 Atk / 12 Def / 40 SpA / 180 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Acrobatics
- Overheat
- U-turn
- Swords Dance


While Fletchling was a very good pokemon during XY and ORAS, this mon has very little use as a viable setup sweeper/sweeper in general anymore. Getting up Swords Dance is no longer as viable as in gen 6 because of the Gale Wings nerf, and you're better off not using fletch at all or opting for a better set.


Use this instead:


Rufflet @ Choice Scarf
Level: 5
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Aerial Ace/Brave Bird
- Superpower
- U-turn


While Fletchling leaves quite a bit to be desired in the current meta, this bird can more or less do much of what Fletch did in gen 6 with a little more risk attached in the accuracy drop from hustle. If you wish to opt for a STAB move that will never miss over Brave Bird, you can always go Aerial ace, both hit ridiculously hard with the hustle boost as it is. Like overheat Fletch, Rufflet has a means to hit Pawniard in the form of Superpower, making it a pokemon that should not be under-estimated as a successor to Fletchling. Add in access to U-turn and very good STAB in Return and you have a very deadly pokemon in your possession.
 
So apparently LC EVs are hard, and even LCers are making these mistakes. I was building with some non LCers though, and these stood out to me.


Don't use this:

Staryu @ Eviolite
Ability: Analytic
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 116 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature

Use that:

Staryu @ Eviolite
Ability: Analytic
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Def / 116 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature

This is far bulkier since you hit an Eviolite number in Defense now. Don't invest into HP instead ffs.
what if you want to survive Abra's LO Psychic after SR while also wanting to survive Scarf Foo's HJK? It's very frail specially without any HP EVs or SpD EVs.

I don't think you can say defense always outclasses HP in the same way that wrong EVs or inefficient EVs are outclassed by optimized EVs.
 

Don't use this

Gastly @ Focus sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 200 SpA / 80 SpD / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Destiny Bond / Sucker Punch

Why it's bad

First off, if you're not named Abra or you're not a suicide lead, you have no business holding a Focus Sash. At all. Without a Life Orb Gastly's damage output is rather lacking, and as Focus Sash requires Gastly to be at full health to work, you absolutely need Rapid Spin or Defog support. If you can't remove the Rocks, you effectively have no item. Gastly much prefers the power of a Life Orb or the Speed of a Choice Scarf to an unreliable Focus Sash. Oh, and don't use Sucker Punch, Gastly's Attack is pathetic, so it won't do any damage to anything with any bulk.

200 SpA Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
200 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Use This



Abra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 240 SpA / 200 Spe (76 HP EVs if running Counter)
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Hidden Power Fighting / Counter
- Energy Ball / Dazzling Gleam
- Protect / Energy Ball / Dazzling Gleam

Thanks to Magic Guard, Abra doesn't have to worry about having its Focus Sash broken by hazards, making it a far more consistent item for it. It's also slightly faster and more powerful than Gastly, so it doesn't miss the Life Orb as much.

Don't use these


Leftovers & Assault Vest

Why They're Bad

The Pokemon with the highest base HP in the tier, Munchlax, will recover 2 HP per turn when using this. Most of the other Pokemon in the tier will only be able to heal 1HP. The damage will build up far faster than you can negate it. Assault Vest may seem like a good item, but it locks you out of using any status moves. And why would you bother with it when you can use an Eviolite?

Use these


Eviolite & Berry Juice

Speaking of Eviolite, it gives you the exact same Special Defence boost as Assault Vest without locking you out of using status moves. It also boosts your Defence, giving your Pokemon better overall bulk. Berry Juice heals 20 HP when you fall below half health, thus giving you the same healing in one turn that Leftovers would take at least 10 turns to provide.
 
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Altariel von Sweep

They Who Laugh Last
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

Don't use this

Gastly @ Focus sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 200 SpA / 80 SpD / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Destiny Bond / Sucker Punch

Why it's bad

First off, if you're not named Abra or you're not a suicide lead, you have no business holding a Focus Sash. At all. Without a Life Orb Gastly's damage output is rather lacking, and as Focus Sash requires Gastly to be at full health to work, you absolutely need Rapid Spin or Defog support. If you can't remove the Rocks, you effectively have no item. Gastly much prefers the power of a Life Orb or the Speed of a Choice Scarf to an unreliable Focus Sash. Oh, and don't use Sucker Punch, Gastly's Attack is pathetic, so it won't do any damage to anything with any bulk.

200 SpA Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
200 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Use This



Abra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 240 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Energy Ball / Dazzling Gleam
- Protect / Energy Ball / Dazzling Gleam

Thanks to Magic Guard, Abra doesn't have to worry about having its Focus Sash broken by hazards, making it a far more consistent item for it. It's also slightly faster and more powerful than Gastly.

Don't use this


Leftovers

Why it's bad

The Pokemon with the highest base HP in the tier, Munchlax, will recover 2 HP per turn when using this. Most of the other Pokemon in the tier will only be able to heal 1HP. The damage will build up far faster than you can negate it, and overall there are far better items to use. Such as...

Use these



Eviolite gives your Pokemon a +1 boost to Defence and Special Defence thus making it much harder to bring down. Berry Juice heals 20 HP when you fall below half health, thus giving you the same healing in one turn that Leftovers would take 10 turns (at least) to provide.
In the Abra set, you could slash Counter over Hidden Power Fighting, as it can knock out instantly its counters, being Alola Grimer, Munchlax and other non-Skill Link physical attackers, add 76 HP for increase Counter's damage, and add Assault Vest as an item that shouldn't be used in counterpart to the Eviolite.
 

Don't use this

Gastly @ Focus sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 200 SpA / 80 SpD / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Destiny Bond / Sucker Punch

Why it's bad

First off, if you're not named Abra or you're not a suicide lead, you have no business holding a Focus Sash. At all. Without a Life Orb Gastly's damage output is rather lacking, and as Focus Sash requires Gastly to be at full health to work, you absolutely need Rapid Spin or Defog support. If you can't remove the Rocks, you effectively have no item. Gastly much prefers the power of a Life Orb or the Speed of a Choice Scarf to an unreliable Focus Sash. Oh, and don't use Sucker Punch, Gastly's Attack is pathetic, so it won't do any damage to anything with any bulk.

200 SpA Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
200 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Use This



Abra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 240 SpA / 200 Spe (76 HP EVs if running Counter)
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Hidden Power Fighting / Counter
- Energy Ball / Dazzling Gleam
- Protect / Energy Ball / Dazzling Gleam

Thanks to Magic Guard, Abra doesn't have to worry about having its Focus Sash broken by hazards, making it a far more consistent item for it. It's also slightly faster and more powerful than Gastly, so it doesn't miss the Life Orb as much.
How about these calcs:

vs Sash Gastly

Mold Breaker Drilbur Rapid Spin vs. Gastly: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

76 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. Focus Sash Gastly: 18-18 (94%) -- Never koes ever

vs LO Gastly / Scarf

76 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Gastly: 32-42 (168.4 - 221%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs Sash Abra

76 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Rapid Spin vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 4-5 (21 - 26.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5) - your hazards are gone

Same thing applies to Staryu, except Staryu doesn't need to be afraid of Destiny Bond if the 50/50 is won. In which case, Scarf is just as good of a Spin Blocker but not against Drilbur and Kabuto.

Sashbra is good, Sash Gastly is not as good but they are not the same Pokemon. Sash Gastly is a legitimate option to stop spin particularly with an offensive team and a teammate like Z-Diglett which can trap the spinners even if they predict correctly.

Also keep in mind that with Drilbur and Kabuto, they are often the SRs and the spinners, so the first time you switch in it isn't likely that you're going to switch into SR.
 
If it was viable it would have a set listed. It doesn't even get an OO mention. You also failed to take into account that the Stealth Rocks which are on any competent team will break its Sash rendering it unless. Pumpkaboo-Super is a far better spin blocker than Gastly as it can reliably beat Drilbur Staryu and Kabuto that lack Knock Off.

Interesting you bought up Drilbur. If it just throws out Earthquake or Rock Slide, you lose your Sash, and you still can't 2HKO it if it's running Berry Juice or Eviolite.

200 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 76 Berry Juice SpD Drilbur: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Heals then wrecks you.

200 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Drilbur: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
 
Last edited:

Berks

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If it was viable it would have a set listed. It doesn't even get an OO mention. You also failed to take into account that the Stealth Rocks which are on any competent team will break its Sash rendering it unless. Pumpkaboo-Super is a far better spin blocker than Gastly as it can reliably beat Drilbur Staryu and Kabuto that lack Knock Off.

Interesting you bought up Drilbur. If it just throws out Earthquake or Rock Slide, you lose your Sash, and you still can't 2HKO it if it's running Berry Juice or Eviolite.

200 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 76 Berry Juice SpD Drilbur: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Heals then wrecks you.

200 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Drilbur: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Not only did he definitely mention Stealth Rocks in the final paragraph of his post, but Pumpkaboo-Super cannot reliably spinblock Staryu as it is 2HKOed by LO Staryu's Ice Beam, nor Kabuto as all Kabuto running Rapid Spin should absolutely run Knock Off for the specific purpose of beating spinblockers! Your post considers only on-paper scenarios whereas Heysup is speaking at a higher level of in-game scenarios. Not having an OO mention is not necessarily indicative of a sets unviability, as there exist several sets across the tier involving such things as unexpected Z-moves or setup moves that are either new or only work on specific teams. Such is the case with Sash Gastly: while it certainly is not the most overall optimal and threatening Gastly set, it is deadly on certain teams and is in no way comparable to Sash Abra.
 
Eh, I used Sash Gastly on a Spike stacking team and I could count the number of times it pulled its weight on one hand without running out of fingers. I'll delete it if you guys really think it's viable.

Don't Use This


Krabby @ Eviolite / Berry Juice / Life Orb
Ability: Hyper Cutter / Shell Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def / 76 SpD / 116 Spe (remove the HP EVs with Life Orb)
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Swords Dance
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off

Why it's bad

While Krabby may look impressive at first glance with that massive Attack stat and good Defence, it's let down by several important issues. Its Special Defence is terrible, meaning it will be 2HKOed by just about any neutral special move. It has a tiny movepool - outside of Crabhammer, Knock Off and Superpower it has very few attacks worth using. This means it has trouble breaking through most bulky Water resists. And lastly, but perhaps most importantly, Krabby is completely outclassed.

Use these


Corphish @ Eviolite / Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 76 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crabhammer
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off

Shellder @ Eviolite
Ability: Skill Link
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe
Impish Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Razor Shell

Tirtouga @ Eviolite / Berry Juice
Ability: Solid Rock / Stury
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 132 Atk / 92 Def / 76 SpD / 180 Spe (with Solid Rock and Eviolite) 212 Atk / 92 Def / 180 Spe (with Sturdy and Berry Juice)
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Zen Headbutt / Aqua Jet / Earthquake


So, you want a Water-type physical sweeper? Here are some options for you. While Corphish may have a lower Attack stat than Krabby, thanks to Adaptability it can actually hit harder with its STABs. It can use Swords Dance more effectively than Krabby, as it has STAB priority in Aqua Jet. Corphish may lack Agility, but it still gets Dragon Dance, which lets it outrun the unboosted meta regardless. While Krabby may boast more initial power than Shellder, the clam trumps it in every other way. Shellder has access to the wonderful Shell Smash, which, for the price of -1 defence and special defence, effectively gives it Swords Dance, Nasty Plot and Agility all in one go. Due to the way damage rolls in LC function, Skill Link is a wonderful ability, letting Shellder do colossal damage after a Shell Smash. It has a better movepool than Krabby too: Skill Link boosted Icicle Spear and Rock Blast let it break through Pokemon Krabby never could, like Foongus and Mareanie. Tirtouga has better bulk than Krabby and Solid Rock, which combined with its typing gives it good set up opportunities on Normal and Flying types like Munchlax and Rufflet locked into Brave Bird or Return, as well as making it harder to revenge kill. Access to Zen Headbutt lets it OHKO Mareanie and Foongus with a little bit of prior damage. Tirtouga can also use Sturdy and Berry Juice to set up safely if you keep hazards away. Krabby can run a decent Choice Scarf set, but other than being slightly faster Corphish can still do that better thanks to hitting harder with its STAB, Aqua Jet and Switcheroo.
 

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