Doubles OU Roles Compendium

Yoda2798

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talkingtree is too nice, my puns are honestly not that good (apparently), also the "idea" was basically just a copy of Pastelle's art from the Spread Compendium so I don't deserve any credit lol.

For some actual discussion, I'd quite like to see checks to cores (Lando Zard is another good one to do for it as well BTW), and see priority users being seperated from Choice Scarf users for clarification.

Also splitting up each category into viable and semi-viable could be nice to help more inexperienced players, if not alone for being easier to look at and interpret.
 

talkingtree

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Just did a big update - all the rolls roles are now split into Solid vs Shaky performers of the given role - more explanation can be found in the paragraph at the top of the OP. Not only that, but Priority/Scarfers has been split into two different subsections for clarity. I still have to add some more Shaky checks that initially were not on the list (eg: Aegislash for Lando-T checks if it's locked into Rock Slide or Superpower), so this isn't completed yet but I have to go so this will do for now.

I'd like to hear more opinions on whether cores should be covered and if so, which ones? Also, would people benefit from having a category for Wide Guard/Quick Guard/Feint users?

Thanks for all the input on this - I'm really glad it's got people interested.
 

Platinum God n1n1

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Wide guard yes
Quick guard, fient no

Partial list of cores for consideration
Jirachi + diancie
Jirachi + azu
CharY + lando
CharY + venu
Lando + Thundy
Lando + Kang
 
Just a question. Are the trick room setters named solid or shaky based off of their ability to do things after tr is set as well, or simply off their ability to set tr? If it's the latter, I would say jirachi is as solid a setter as any.
 

talkingtree

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I was calling them "solid" or "shaky" based on their ability to not only set TR but do other things that TR teams can appreciate, thus being a viable choice for one of the two setters on fullroom. While Jirachi offers redirection, it doesn't do much else for TR teams so it usually isn't the best pick for a setter, and I placed it in shaky. If you have some sort of reasoning behind why you think this is incorrect I'd be happy to talk about it in this thread or on PS!
 

Platinum God n1n1

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one of tr teams concerns is amoonguss. redirecting spores is so valuable
also I sometimes end up using jirachi to redirect a taunt so another tr setter can set
at minimum speed its slower than most of the common pokemon you'll come across and can iron head for flinches in tr
 
Yeah essentially my idea of why it's a solid tr setter is because of the redirection power so you can protect yourself from amoongus. It also doesnt need to run speed control moves with TR, therefore it can run support moves like helping hand that give it a use after setting tr. Skill flinches are also always a good thing. I personally feel it's pretty solid.
 
in line with sleep checks i usually like to have one or two mons in the category that i dub with the incredibly catchy name, "things that i can afford to have thunder wave used on."
Stuff like ferro, most redirectors, ground types, and sometimes even kyub if i'm desparate.
 

finally

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in line with sleep checks i usually like to have one or two mons in the category that i dub with the incredibly catchy name, "things that i can afford to have thunder wave used on."
Stuff like ferro, most redirectors, ground types, and sometimes even kyub if i'm desparate.
and dont forget aboot your bois 'thinks that are takin this burn'
stuff like charizard, talonflame, and even cresselia if i'm desperate
 

Checkmater

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I think something about checking TR isn't just "how do I stop x setter" but more like "how do I stop setter+Fake Out (commonly Scrafty)" so I often find myself thinking of Keldeo as a big Trick Room check simply because it easily targets Scrafty/Kang and also abuses Quick Guard. To add, it has generally good damage output to pull off a 2-mon sweep once room goes down for the first time

Similarly, Gardevoir still counts as a Trick Room check after room goes down simply because it obliterates Scrafty and Trick Room is hard-pressed to find fairy resists (outside of heatran...)

I'd also move Raichu from Solid to shaky on fake outs, and then Sableye from shaky to Solid because Quash fucking your day + wisp hitting your fake outs + not being hit-able by Fake Out is good. just realized it was already Solid. Still think it should go to Priority section because that's how Sableye functions

Rachi/Toge can also go to solid tr checks under Misc, as their capabilities to both prevent and stall out Trick Room are very powerful.

In general, maybe you could annotate/put a section of "Powerful spread that Trick Room teams tend to be weak to" and then put stuff like Char Y Gardevoir and Sylveon.

Maybe you could put a section for middling speed mons that could potentially underspeed Trick Room abusers. This would include Amoonguss but also stuff like conk/azu/hari/sylveon.
 

Checkmater

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Gave this a look over here's some comments :)

Landorus-T Checks:
Solid:
I could see all these being classified as shaky. 3/4 get u-turned, deo-a is shaky in itself (doesn't like seeing kang at all) while also not liking jolly lando. Bisharp maybe stays solid but it doesn't ohko with sucker :(


Mega Kangaskhan Checks:
Solid:
not seeing this... why mew counts as a solid mega kang check? are we assuming wisp?
Shaky:
this is solid. Diancie loves facing kang
uhh
uhh idk about using metagross to beat kang could see this just being eliminated



Mega Kangskhan Switchins:
Solid:
mega sprite?



Mega Diancie Checks:
Solid:
idk about this || oops deleted the venusaur sprite but I think that counts as shaky,,, requires sun + no redirection, and loses to talon
shaky? it's serp.... should be shaky || kyube was here. Why is kyube a mega diancie check. Scarf kyube locking into iron head is shaky af



Talonflame Checks:
Shaky:
these two are solid?
not a talon check
also solid
why is this a talon check



Heatran Checks:
Solid:
maybe shaky. Doesn't OHKO and doesn't resist heat wave really. I guess it breaks sub
Shaky:
?



Pixilate Hyper Voice Checks:
Shaky:
why not solid?
same



Sleep Checks: rename to amoonguss checks? idk.. that's basically what this section is
Shaky:
it's it's goggles it's a solid amoonguss check
solid? it ohkos amoonguss
same
same
literally same except it's deoa so maybe not



Rain Checks:
Solid:
not a rain check
Shaky:
solid
not even shaky everything in rain either discourages setup or can't be ohko'd by +6 ajet



Sun Checks:
Solid:
rain is not a sun check
uhhh zapdos isn't enjoying heat waves
Shaky:
sun hates diancie so much, solid



Trick Room Checks:

already commented on this



Speed Control Users:
move this to shaky (Shaky)
solid it's hydreigon, what's there not to like

Trick Room: (Solid)
I love trick room Gardevoir but not solid. Gardevoir TR is hard to make work
shaky . It's just kinda bad tbh


Priority / Choice Scarf Attackers:
Choice Scarf Users: (Shaky)
not a thing




Nonessential / Team-Specific Roles

Trick Room Attackers:
Solid: missing in this list is camerupt-mega and amphy
 
Problem is, they only direct one type of attack.

I would recommend having a third category for redirection labeled "Specific" for stuff like rhyp/don, raichu, and gastro, if you think it would be worth it with such a small mon count under it.
 

Bughouse

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since when is +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 298-351 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
not ohkoing? Lando doesn't like to risk this lol. It's generally not worth it.
 
Do people even run 44 hp lando anymore? Its designed to outspeed lopunny and manectric for god's sake. The more relevant calc is even better.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 298-351 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
 

Bughouse

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Lando-T can afford to drop to what is needed to outrun Mega Gengar and save a few more points for HP/Def to live that Sucker. Lando can drop to 184 speed evs and still do that.

which is now this:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 298-351 (88.4 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Or if you EV a bit more creatively than omghpdumpstat:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 16 HP / 56 Def Landorus-T: 278-329 (86 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
 

talkingtree

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Sorry I haven't done anything with this thread for the past couple of weeks, a bunch of edits coming in the form of new sections as well as suggested moves from some of the above posts. Responses in bold!
Gave this a look over here's some comments :)

Overall comment: Wow thanks for looking through everything so fully, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, my bad u_u
Something big to point out is that "solid" vs "shaky" doesn't refer to the mon as a choice for a team, rather as a fulfiller of a role. So even though something like Milotic isn't exactly the strongest pick out there, it's definitely a solid Lando-T check.


Landorus-T Checks:
Solid:
I could see all these being classified as shaky. 3/4 get u-turned, deo-a is shaky in itself (doesn't like seeing kang at all) while also not liking jolly lando. Bisharp maybe stays solid but it doesn't ohko with sucker :(

Bisharp is there mostly because of how well it deters Lando-T from coming in, as well as being able to threaten the OHKO with Sucker. Deo-A outspeeds and OHKOs, although I guess Jolly beats it. I'll move that to the end of Solid. Mew probably should be Shaky, but Cress stays imo - Offensive sets OHKO with Ice Beam and CM Cress sets up in front of it and heals off U-Turn damage easily.

Mega Kangaskhan Checks:
Solid:
not seeing this... why mew counts as a solid mega kang check? are we assuming wisp?
Shaky:
this is solid. Diancie loves facing kang
uhh
uhh idk about using metagross to beat kang could see this just being eliminated


Mew was there for Wisp, yeah. I didn't realize it ran sets without Wisp, I'll push it to the end of Solid. Diancie gets 2HKO'd by Kang so it can't even really switch in... I wouldn't use it as a Kang check on a team. Kang itself is there for Low Kick sets or Jolly sets that are run specifically to beat other Kang. Metagross is for Hammer Arm, since it lives a Sucker Punch or can play mindgames with Sub/Bullet Punch. It also switches in fairly easily.

Mega Kangskhan Switchins:
Solid:
mega sprite?

Mega isn't a switchin, regular is

Mega Diancie Checks:
Solid:
idk about this || oops deleted the venusaur sprite but I think that counts as shaky,,, requires sun + no redirection, and loses to talon
shaky? it's serp.... should be shaky || kyube was here. Why is kyube a mega diancie check. Scarf kyube locking into iron head is shaky af

Thund with Flash Cannon is a very solid Mega Diancie check. It does have that caveat but otherwise I see no reason to move it. Venu does require sun and no Jirachi next to it, and can't really switch in on anything, so I'll move to shaky. Serp is run specifically to have a fast grass that can beat Diancie so that stays. Kyube probably could be shaky, but it's literally running a move specifically to beat Mega Diancie so that's why I have it in Solid.

Talonflame Checks:
Shaky:
these two are solid?
not a talon check
also solid
why is this a talon check


Neither Diancie nor Lando-T can switch in on Talon. Azu beats Talon under TR or takes a BB and revenges. Mence is solid, oops. Entei carries Stone Edge, and doesn't take much from a Brave Bird. Also has ESpeed to out prioritize.

Heatran Checks:
Solid:
maybe shaky. Doesn't OHKO and doesn't resist heat wave really. I guess it breaks sub
Shaky:
?


Hoopa-U goes through the sub and has decent special bulk - the idea is that if you have a Hoopa-U, you don't have to worry about Tran setting up a substitute. Tran itself is there for Timid Tran, ErupTran, or Shuca Tran, which can beat opposing Heatran quite well.

Pixilate Hyper Voice Checks:
Shaky:
why not solid?
same


Neither of those can do much back to either Garde or Sylv and take a decent amount from coverage moves (I'm pretty sure Zard Y is 2HKO'd by a Psyshock), so that's why shaky was chosen. I would feel pretty Fairy weak if either of these were my only Hyper Voice checks.

Sleep Checks: rename to amoonguss checks? idk.. that's basically what this section is
Shaky:
it's it's goggles it's a solid amoonguss check
solid? it ohkos amoonguss
same
same
literally same except it's deoa so maybe not


This section isn't Amoonguss checks - it's sleep checks. Breloom, Venu, and Mega Venu are all definitely threats to be worried about as well.

tbh no idea why Aegis is in Shaky, goggles can basically ignore all 4 sleep users and Sub has a field day if already set up. Latios doesn't OHKO Amoon, it's a roll, and Venu beats it 1v1 if sun is up. Blaziken and Deo-A are there for sash sleep users that can live any one hit, although Mega Garde should be solid.


Rain Checks:
Solid:
not a rain check
Shaky:
solid
not even shaky everything in rain either discourages setup or can't be ohko'd by +6 ajet


Rotom-W not a rain check? umm it resists Water, KOes Politoed, and somewhat commonly carries Thunder Wave to take away the biggest advantage Ludi + Kingdra have. Also can Wisp Mega Swamp, and its Hydro Pumps become a lot stronger in Rain. Definitely a rain check.

Kang can be OHKO'd by Kingdra or Ludi and hates facing Politoed because of Scald burns. Azu was there because I argued it gets boosted by rain itself and wins vs Kingdra, but I only barely got n10sit and Stratos to agree so I'll take it off.


Sun Checks:
Solid:
rain is not a sun check
uhhh zapdos isn't enjoying heat waves
Shaky:
sun hates diancie so much, solid


Politoed takes away the sun, and can lock Zard Y into Solar Beam or KO it if rain is up - they're called weather wars for a reason. Zapdos does tons to Zard, can run Goggles effectively to "beat" Venu, Tailwinds to effectively remove any chlorophyll boosts, and can decently well roost off damage. It's at the end of Solid for a reason though. Diancie gets beat pretty badly by Venu or opposing Tailwind or not protecting on a Zard Solar Beam, but I'll move it to Solid specifically for what it can do to sun given the right support.

Trick Room Checks:

already commented on this


The only way I could figure out how to make "TR Checks" an actual Role with easily defined members was to define checks as ways to stop TR from going up or ways to prevent it from functioning well once set. If this changes to "checks to TR teams + common mons", then it becomes a lot messier. I moved a few of your suggestions for specific movement but unless other people think this section is problematic I'm leaving it as-is.

Speed Control Users:
move this to shaky (Shaky)
solid it's hydreigon, what's there not to like

Trick Room: (Solid)
I love trick room Gardevoir but not solid. Gardevoir TR is hard to make work
shaky . It's just kinda bad tbh

Whims has priority Tailwind that outspeeds even a Thundurus Taunt - how is that not a Solid TW setter? Hydreigon is a shaky Tailwind setter, although a solid mon. Garde and Goth I guess I'll move. Not because they're shaky mons or choices for a TR team, but because they don't offer sleep immunity, Taunt immunity, Fake Out immunity, or a guaranteed living of one hit; all of which are things I look for in a TR setter.

Priority / Choice Scarf Attackers:
Choice Scarf Users: (Shaky)
not a thing


Yes it is, although shaky it's an established set that has been used many times.

Nonessential / Team-Specific Roles

Trick Room Attackers:
Solid: missing in this list is camerupt-mega and amphy

Not including mons that aren't on the VR. I would personally argue that Camel should be Tier 4, but if it's not on the VR it's not going on this compendium.
In response to Spread attackers being moved to Essential, I do see why it seems they are so important but if I build a team without any spread moves, it's not the end of the world so long as I have ways to deal with common redirectors. Thus, leaving the category where it is, at least for now.

I've added a section in Nonessential / Team-Specific labeled "Utility Move Users", split into Quick Guard, Wide Guard, and Feint. If there are any Pokemon that I missed, or ways to improve the name / subsections, please let me know!
 

Checkmater

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Thanks for looking through this and implementing n~n

pretty much agree with all of the above except:

Kang on rain check. I would definitely consider Kangaskhan a huge rain check, you're only ohko'ing with ludi and kingdra if unless you're either: specs, boosted by hh (toed), or some kind of priority damage. Juxtapose this with the fact that Rain teams struggle heavily with having normal-resists, and how its fake out can ignore opposing ludi fake out. Stuff like ludi, frailer poli sets, kingdra, talon aren't enjoying tanking a return and/or double-edge (which ohkos kingdra iirc). Overall, yeah any team is always watching out for Kangaskhan 100% of the time but Kangaskhan is just so difficult to switch into for rain teams, and easily trumps rain outside of sun. Overall, since it's a kind of bulky attacker, to an extent, it can just ignore the fact that you're faster with your rain-boost and just ohko you after, which is the issue and what differentiates Kang from other threats like.. idk .. Diancie or something. The latter you can take advantage of your phenomenal speed and outspeed and KO, but Kang has both the bulk and the typing to live any kind of neutral hit to ohko you back.

wew that was long

Also not really seeing washtom as solid seeing as how it doesn't really touch rain sweepers (ludi, kingdra) which both enjoy ruining washtom and/or its partner. Mainly the fact that it loses handily to ludicolo makes me say this.

anyways

whimsi on tw: like... bleh. Hard to really see whimsi as a "solid twind setter". If you're looking for priority guaranteed twind just use Talonflame. Whimsi is just so incredibly niche as a mon that it's very hard to justify using. Coverage and bulk are both ass. Combine this with the fact that ftr I don't think I've ever seen a successful whimsi team make it anywhere without relying on surprise factor/niche filling. It's not splashable

hydreigon on tw: why not? I guess preferences, some people love twind on hydrei and some don't, but frankly it's pretty damn good, and sees quite a bit of usage. Also the other coverage moves are just like... nonessential I guess... they provide you with 1hkos on things that are 2hkos that your matchup is already good in (heatran, ferrothorn) with the exception of bisharp. Maybe some elaboration is needed here

Also on the difference between solid/shaky/what counts enough to be on the list there seems to be inconsistent. For example, we put the standard as "can switchin" for stuff like lando on talon, diancie on talon (also im p sure this switches in), diancie on kang, but like

are any of those solid lando checks (that I said were shaky) switching in on lando?
is thundurus switching in on diancie?
is jellicent switching in on a talonflame?


also 3 suggestions:

lando to shaky for heatran checks

Ok so this especially comes up for sun but you really can't use lando as your heatran check. It can't switch into subbed tran, first off, and using Lando as a anything check is just kind of sketchy, unless it checks it by virtue of intimidate/being able to u-turn. Like, when I'm buillding sun and I have lando as my strongest heatran check besides like random hp grounds, I just delete the team cuz it'll never feel comfortable against tran

Section for trick room setters? We have attackers, might as well put a setters section.
and the misc section should probably be "solid: x, y, z and niche: x, y, z" because solid/shaky terminology is kind of weird for like "how well does this fit this role?" and fits checking things better frankly terminology-wise


Sorry to bombard you with essays on this stuff I'm just shpeeling about stuff on the op that I think could do with modifying
 
Last edited:
Thanks for looking through this and implementing n~n

lando to shaky for heatran checks

Ok so this especially comes up for sun but you really can't use lando as your heatran check. It can't switch into subbed tran, first off, and using Lando as a anything check is just kind of sketchy, unless it checks it by virtue of intimidate/being able to u-turn. Like, when I'm buillding sun and I have lando as my strongest heatran check besides like random hp grounds, I just delete the team cuz it'll never feel comfortable against tran
Lando is pretty solid heatran check

A check doesnt need to sit there and take hits from it all day, it just needs to be able to ko it in a majority of situations, and preferably switch in once or twice. Very few things like switching into sub tran. By that logic essentially only bulky waters would be heatran checks. Even bulky waters become poor heatran checks in sun like you mentioned. Lando easily ko's with either superpower or eq, and isnt incredibly worried about taking one heat wave. It shouldn't be your only tran check, like you said, but i'd still call it solid.
 

13ulbasaur

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Tree I was reading your post and I noticed this inconsistency.

You said in regards to M.Diancie checks
"Thund with Flash Cannon is a very solid Mega Diancie check."
thus placing Thund in Solid.


Then only a couple of lines down, you say in regards to Talon checks that

"Neither Diancie nor Lando-T can switch in on Talon."
thus placing Diancie and Lando-T in shaky.

Thund, especially those with Flash Cannon as they tend to be frail, have no business switching in on Diancie unless it's a predicted Earth Power (but what do Diancies spam a lot? That's kinda risky). In that case, with what you said in regards to Diance and Lando's matchup to Talon, would Thund not be under Shaky?
 

talkingtree

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You're totally right, I guess I've been a little too free with defining the boundary between shaky and solid for different roles. Thund should definitely be in Shaky by my own logic, so I'll go ahead and move that and sometime tomorrow I'll try to go through everything and see if there's anything else like that. I'll also make my way through check's essays tomorrow and figure out what needs to be changed / clarified because after doing the first big overhaul I just couldn't do another lol.
 
Gave this a look over here's some comments :)

Landorus-T Checks:
Solid:
I could see all these being classified as shaky. 3/4 get u-turned, deo-a is shaky in itself (doesn't like seeing kang at all) while also not liking jolly lando. Bisharp maybe stays solid but it doesn't ohko with sucker :(
This alone essentially means that everything with bp or u-turn has literally 0 counters, because they just get u-turned on, although I do think Deo-A should be moved to high shaky instead of low solid, and I'd still put mew in mid-low solid b/c if lando isn't fresh from the bench, if you will, mew clicks willo on lando and neuters it. Also with the uturn argument why is ludi in solid checks, it needs rain to beat lando, and if its not there, it just gets u-turned on. I'd put sab a bit higher too because of prankster shenanigans forcing lando to go last or to get burnt. Also demote weavile to under victini imo, 99.9% of lando are scarf and ice shard isn't very common at all
 

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