RBY STABmons

as this is the rotational ladder this month, and there's a tour going on, i thought having a place for discussion for this would be nice.

first and foremost i'm pretty sure Transform is bugged as i've had some strange occurrences of it with my Chansey with it either not interacting properly or displaying properly (i took 40% as Chansey under Reflect from a +2 Lax Body Slam, Transformed, and took 60% from a +4 one even though Reflect supposedly carried which isn't right), and since Transform Chansey is such a potentially huge threat i think it's worth holding off on discussing her.

otherwise, normal types (as well as eeveelutions) get crazy stuff. SD and Growth for setting up, Wrap for sweeping, Explosion for exploding, Super Fang and Glare for support, Recover to make everything sturdy, and Lovely Kiss for sleeping. Jolteon becomes the fastest sleeper and can pretty much do any of these things as it has decent special bulk, can sweep lategame with +1 Tbolts or +2 Body Slams/Wraps if it's not paralyzed, can para other things reliably with Twave, annoy stuff with Wrap (although imo that's not as good on Jolt), Super Fang for chip, use it as a suicide lead, etc. similarly, Vaporeon can play a big supporting role with Recover, Lovely Kiss, Glare, and Super Fang chipping at everything. it also has two incredible water options: Clamp which can annoy and preserve momentum, and Crabhammer which almost always crits off of a high Special. you can also run Growth and try to sweep. finally ig you could use Flareon to do some of these things but slow frail mixed attackers ehhh

the other normals git good too. Lax and Tauros can both sweep with SD and Tauros can Wrap shit where Lax is good at Recovering stuff of. both of them can Explode, and ig Tauros can Slash shit and run its basic mixed attacking set without boosting. Persian is usable again since it's a fast Wrapper. you could run like 4 normals and Jolt and a filler and run a boom/wrap team if you wanted. Chansey also is good cuz you can do Chansey stuff but now it gets more PP on Recover and Super Fang etc and eventually a workable Transform.

psychics of course get access to Amnesia. Starmie gets a bunch of moves it can work with but they normally skip on ice coverage so Egg can still wall. but Mie can run lots of stuff. some combo of Amnesia/Clamp/Twave/Crabhammer/Surf/Pump/Blizz/Tbolt/Psychic/Recover leaves it with a lot of options. Egg meanwhile gets three moves it's dreamed of: Spore, Razor Leaf, and Amnesia. go wild. Zam gets Amnesia too but it sort of lacks the ability to distinguish itself from the other two. oh they also get Agility, which could be nice to beat para although this meta is generally slower paced and for something like Mie it cuts into its coverage options even deeper.

waters in general get access to Clamp/Crabhammer (Lapras, Vape, Mie, Omastar for the normal resist, Gyara since it gets Drill Peck too), ice types get access to Haze? ig? fliers get Drill Peck and i think Aero is actually pretty good in this mode since Fire Blast has 30% burn and it can threaten Tauros pretty well offensively, while occupying its niche as a late game sweeper and randomly burns shit along the way. gets Rock Slide too, as well as Agility for para. for the other fliers, Moltres and Articuno get DP but doesn't have much use for it and generally get pressured way too much as is while gaining few moves to really utilize otherwise.

for standard stuff that's still good, i think rocks are decent for normal resists (although now you have GolDon, Omastar, and Aero to choose from). Gengar has trouble keeping up with the meta's offensiveness and ability to shrug off its Tbolts but it's still insanely useful because it's immune to all the normal shit flying around. Tbolt/Hypnosis/CRay/Boom is the best set imo. Dnite is still good as an Agili-wrapper and could easily fit on a Wrap team. other mons like Jynx, (better faster sleepers, better Amnesia users) Cloyster (lots of stuff gets boom, lots of other stuff gets Clamp), and Slowbro (lots of other Amnesia users) lose their niches, while stuff like Zapdos just doesn't gain anything useful (Mirror Move lol) to keep up with the meta.

some other stuff that might be cool:

Scyther is still a meme but it gets Twineedle and Drill Peck now; at the least it's a physical mon capable of fucking up psychics pretty bad if it gets a boost and its stab Drill Pecks are sorta strong & it can fish for poison on wrappers as they switch in but on the whole it's probably not that good.

Pinsir is better for the above reason too

the aforementioned Omastar is a strong normal resist whose Crabhammers sting when they crit. can also Body Slam and spread para on stuff like Chansey or Vape or Eggs which are sometimes hard to para otherwise.

Gyarados looks like a usable mixed attacker with Drill Peck and Crabhammer, probably around as good as Zapdos in this meta.

Electrode is a meme mon that gains little but having something in a speed tier above Jolt/Aero that can also do some stuff (fire off decent Tbolts, para some stuff, mediocre boom, crit a lot) is maybe worth it.

Kangaskhan and Dodrio have use on normalspam teams as Wrappers, Boomers, and fast Sleepers. Dodrio's faster and hits harder while having Drill Peck to sting Eggs, while Kangaskhan can EQ Gengar on the switch or Counter something.

Leech Seed Exeggutor is something i've toyed with because it outspeeds Chansey and you can Seed it before it Transforms meaning that you win the stalemate, and you can seed other Amnesia/Growth sweepers too and Rest stall them.

Hypno can be decent if you don't want a flying weak sleeper who Amnesia sweeps (though Lax still probably outclasses it). small niche.

Arcanine, Starmie, Seadra, Seaking, Dodrio, Fearow, and Pidgeot can all do Agility + wrap variant to varying degrees of success.
 
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This meta is broken, as interesting as some side options look, teams will basically be Jolteon (maybe sometimes Electrode or Exeggutor) Lead + Wrap Check (Aerodactyl or Gengar are your best options here, former because resist + speed and latter because wrap immunity) + 4 of the following: Jolteon, Tauros, Persian, Starmie, Alakazam, and maybe Snorlax (Quick Attack) or Exeggutor (backup sleep + Clamp resist). Omastar is another Wrap check that might be able to do some heavy damage with Crabhammer once Starmie is removed, and if Golem/Rhydon aren't popular, electrics like Zapdos (agility on an opening and go to town) and Electrode (no Ground/Rocks + less Chansey/Exeggutor means STAB isn't blocked as easily) could be effective. Dugtrio also exists but is frail, doesn't hit hard enough to scare anything except maybe Jolteon (which is faster and can still Wrap), and is easily handled by teams with Aerodactyl, Zapdos or strong Quick Attack.

Jolteon is easily the most broken thing in the meta and mandatory in my opinion. Jolteon is pretty much your only viable lead, as anything slower has a 3/4 chance of taking sleep, nothing is faster than Jolteon except Aerodactyl (which loses easily to Jolteon) and Electrode (gains nothing from STABMons, though the meta is a lot kinder to it in STABMons than OU), and has Wrap to pivot out or even sweep if it gets lucky, not to mention all of its other phenomenal move options (Explosion, Thunder Wave, etc). The only other viable leads would be Mewtwo if it were unbanned (and with all the crazy stuff going around I would expect Mewtwo to not be broken here), Electrode (bring Toxic for GolDon for your Jolteon to exploit), or maybe Exeggutor if you want to gamble on a 1/4 chance of Spore getting through Lovely Kiss and want to use Exeggutor as sleep fodder anyway (or to anti-lead Electrode). Gengar and Alakazam could also maybe work as anti-anti leads as they can get sleep vs. Electrode/Exeggutor and might be able to wake up and contribute later on even if they take sleep from Jolteon's Lovely Kiss.

A Rock-type or Gengar is definitely wanted to deal with the Wrap spam Jolteon, Persian and Tauros can provide. Agility + Wrap isn't the big problem, its the new Wrap users that are already faster than most everything else without even needing Agility. Clamp is checked by your Jolteon, but Alazakam (to outspeed and threaten sleep/para), Exeggutor (clamp resist) or your own Starmie (Glare Persian might also do in a pinch) might also be good to have for insurance against Clamp Starmie.

Starmie, Persian and Tauros all outspeed most of the metagame like Jolteon, all have access to Wrap, Sleep and Paralysis (Hypnosis + Thunder Wave or Lovely Kiss + Glare), and have a very limited pool of answers. Electrode, Aerodactyl, and Alakazam are the only Pokemon that can check wrap spam, and once they get paralyzed (again, all 4 speedy wrappers can take a para for the team to paralyze the wrap check to leave the other 3 open to continue wrap abuse), they lose to the other wrappers.

Alakazam is one of the few viable non-wrappers in my eyes, mostly due to being the second fastest sleeper (Hypnosis!) and outspeeding 3 of the 4 super fast wrappers.

If you run Snorlax, SD + Quick Attack is going to pretty much be mandatory on it. At +2, Snorlax can hit Wrappers hard enough between Wrap cycles to outpace Wrap damage and create potential openings where the opponent will try to hit with a heavier hitting attack expecting a weaker Quick Attack at the end of a Wrap cycle.

Exeggutor might struggle to find an opening, but once it does, it has a lot of options available to it, best of all Spore (which I'd recommend following up with Agility to get ahead of wrappers). It also gets STAB Razor Leaf off of base 125 Spc, combined with STAB Psychic to hit Gengar, making it a potent threat even if you don't run Explosion or Stun Spore.

Zapdos doesn't get sleep, but similarly becomes a powerhouse once it can set up an Agility, and even its age old GolDon weakness can be exploited by lobbing Toxic at them so Jolteon can eat them alive with Wrap. Electrode isn't as powerful as Zapdos, but it does outspeed Jolteon, can threaten Para, boom, and throw Toxic at whatever it can't threaten (i.e. GolDon) for fellow wrappers to clean up later.

Amnesia I doubt the effectiveness of, trying to set up is risky in a tier where you have Crabhammer+Slash spam that hit crazy hard and bypass defense boosts alongside Wrapspam that doesn't care how many boosts you have if you can't move combined with virtually everything that's viable having access to Thunder Wave, Glare or Stun Spore to make you wrap fodder.

Edit: Chansey is another Pokemon I don't think would be too good in practice. For example, Tauros 2HKOs Chansey (Tauros) with Slash (crits use the Pokemon's original base stat in RBY, so Slash hits Chansey's original 5 defense) while Chansey only 3HKOs back, and that's assuming Chansey manages to find an opening to transform safely and not get brutalized beforehand.

My early impressions+theorymon on the meta:
S

A

B

C

D
+other niche stuff
Jolteon
- Lovely Kiss
- Wrap
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave

Alakazam
- Hypnosis
- Thunder Wave
- Psychic
- Recover / Seismic Toss / Amnesia / Agility

Starmie
- Crabhammer
- Clamp
- Thunderbolt / Hypnosis
- Thunder Wave

Tauros
- Slash
- Wrap
- Earthquake / Blizzard / Explosion
- Glare / Blizzard/ Explosion

Exeggutor
- Spore
- Agility
- Psychic / Razor Leaf / Explosion / Stun Spore
- Psychic / Razor Leaf / Explosion / Stun Spore

Gengar
- Hypnosis
- Explosion
- Confuse Ray / Psychic / Night Shade / Thunderbolt
- Confuse Ray / Psychic / Night Shade / Thunderbolt

Persian
- Slash
- Wrap
- Thunderbolt / Bubble Beam / Glare / Lovely Kiss / Explosion
- Thunderbolt / Bubble Beam / Glare / Lovely Kiss / Explosion

Snorlax
- Quick Attack
- Swords Dance
- Hyper Beam / Earthquake / Glare / Lovely Kiss / Explosion / Blizzard
- Hyper Beam / Earthquake / Glare / Lovely Kiss / Explosion / Blizzard

Zapdos
- Thunderbolt
- Drill Peck
- Toxic / Thunder Wave
- Agility

Aerodactyl
- Drill Peck
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast
- Toxic / Hyper Beam

Electrode
- Thunderbolt
- Explosion
- Thunder Wave
- Toxic

Golem
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Body Slam
- Explosion

Omastar
- Crabhammer
- Clamp
- Blizzard
- Body Slam

Rhydon
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Body Slam
- Substitute
 
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i agree with a lot of that! where do you think SD sets stand with Tauros and Persian? as i see those far more often than regular Slash sets.

Agility Egg i hadn't even considered but yeah Amnesia/Spore + Agility + Psychic + Leaf sounds wavy. i think you're underrating the power of Vape though; Vape + Egg covers like every Starmie set, it can stay healthy for a lot of the time and its Crabhammers are more powerful than Mie's while it also gets access to Super Fang and LK (alongside paralysis, Clamp, and Recover like Mie has) while it also absorbs paralysis well. i think Aero should also be a wee bit higher there because cockblocking Wrappers as well as it does while also being able to legitimately sweep lategame is a niche nothing else really occupies. i'm also thinking Amnesia is sorta overrated but that you need some sort of countermeasure to it - be that a couple of Wrappers on your team, excess paralysis, or your own Amnesia user. i do agree that Chansey is a bit overrated but i also believe it will be better when the Transform bug (which i do believe is a bug - i'm aware of the crits thing) is fixed. Jolteon is definitely the best mon in the tier and i'm not super happy with it being around because Jolt lead dittos determine so much with who gets off LK first and it's v annoying.
 
SD Persian I think isn't super great just because Gengar exists. Tauros having Earthquake is definitely in its favor for a SD set, though Slash / Wrap / Glare / either Blizzard (for Aero) or Earthquake (for Gengar) is my preference on Tauros so far.

I was waiting to do a post about Vaporeon since I first saw that RBY STABMons tournament thread, I kinda forgot it since I was focusing on dealing with the wrap spam once I got to play the meta enough to get a grasp on it and Vaporeon wasn't exactly the first thing that comes to mind. I find Crabhammer has more utility than Super Fang on Vaporeon, even against Starmie its a 3HKO so all you need is some para and you're good. Super Fang isn't great when you consider Crabhammer is almost always outdamaging it and can actually KO resists instead of just weakening them, except opposing Vaporeons which will probably be running recover anyway. Its bulky for sure, but 65 base speed with no way to increase is worrying. I'd probably run Crabhammer / Blizzard / Glare / Recover to get the most utility out of it. Not sure where it'd be placed viability-wise, I'd need to test it to see how well it actually does its job being a wall.

Aero was indeed a bit underrated, since my post I've gotten a few games in with it and it is quite the threat. I've even won 5-0 against a passable team using nothing but Aero, Agility Exeggutor, and lead Electrode. I think I'll raise it up to B in my list, it checks quite a bit and is really scary when it becomes a crit machine. My recommendation is Fire Blast / Rock Slide / 2 of Toxic or Drill Peck or Hyper Beam for last slot. Toxic helps get GolDon statused if someone brings them so Jolteon can sweep, but isn't super important because of Fire Blast burns providing the same benefit.

Transform Chansey just doesn't seem to have time to set up Chansey at all, and since the only real reason to run Chansey is Transform and it requires a turn first it isn't hard to pick a Transform target that Chansey won't benefit too much from, or will even beat Chansey switching into Transform (Slash Tauros). I haven't used it myself, but against my opponents I've just never felt it was much of a threat the same way most of the viable mons are.

Right now, the way I handle Jolt leads is with lead Electrode, that way you can keep your Jolteon fresh while threatening super crippling para on the enemy's Jolt, while also baiting electric resists to throw Toxic at so Jolteon can sweep more easily. If Electrode catches on enough, Exeggutor does better as a lead (guaranteed sleep vs. Electrode, 1/4 sleep vs. Jolteon), and Hypnosis Alakazam and Gengar return to the lead game as niche anti-anti leads.
 
Transform Chansey just doesn't a chance to do anything, special boosters tend to resist themselves so easily stall your 5 PP9 and physical boosters overwhelm it even with reflect. Chansey can act as a decent pivot and para absorber though vs Jolteon.

I like Mirror Move on Aerodactyl, if you switch on a Reflect or SD you can either steal the boost or force a switch (the swtich stop the Mirror Move iirc).

Gyara is decent if you can get it in on the right thing, Stab Drill Peck and Crabhammer hit hard and it has Blizzard+TBolt for coverage, someone was using Scyther, I forget who, it's not a top tier threat but it get agility+SD and does decent damage to Psychics
 
Notable Moves for quick reference

Bug: Twineedle
Dragon: None
Electric: None
Fighting: High Jump Kick
Fire: None
Flying: Drill Peck, Mirror Move
Ghost: None
Grass: Spore, Razor Leaf
Ground: None
Ice: None
Normal: Explosion, Lovely Kiss, Quick Attack, Recover, Slash, Super Fang, Swords Dance, Transform, Wrap
Poison: Acid Armour
Psychic: Agility, Amnesia, Barrier, Hypnosis,
Rock: Rock Slide
Water: Clamp, Crabhammer
 
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Notable Moves for quick reference

Bug: None
Dragon: None
Electric: None
Fighting: None
Fire: None
Flying: Drill Peck, Mirror Move
Ghost: None
Grass: Spore, Razor Leaf
Ground: None
Ice: None
Normal: Explosion, Lovely Kiss, Quick Attack, Recover, Slash, Super Fang, Swords Dance, Transform, Wrap
Poison: Acid Armour
Psychic: Agility, Amnesia, Barrier, Hypnosis,
Rock: Rock Slide
Water: Clamp, Crabhammer
bug gets Twineedle, fighters get HJK, fires get Fire Spin, and normals get Growth. otherwise yep this about covers em!
 
All Fire types already got Fire Spin in regular RBY, I didn't think HJK and Twinneedle were really viable enough to list but I'll add them
 
I really can't see Scyther doing well. Base 105 speed is just a little too slow, STAB Pin Missie / Drill Peck is nowhere near as threatening as SD STAB Hyper Beam, Bug/Flying is an awful typing for taking hits, and if Aerodactyl is on the opposing team Scyther can do absolutely nothing against it.

Speaking of Aero, I completely forgot about Mirror Move, that actually makes stuff like SD Tauros / Snorlax think twice about clicking that especially if they don't have Blizzard. Aero is the last thing you want with a +2 unless you've got a Golem or Rhydon.

Edit: Also, Arcanine got Fire Spin, which makes it better than Rapidash if you want to abuse Agility + Fire Spin because of Arcanine's greater bulk + Attack stat. Which is pretty much the only relevant upgrade any Fire-type gets.
 

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