[Gen6] CAP Viability Ranking Thread V2

BP

Beers and Steers
is a Contributor to Smogon

Amoongus: Unranked ------> C/C+

Having Amoongus as unranked now that it is OU doesn't sit right with me. Amoongus is a pretty solid pivot on Cyclhom and other phyiscally defensive mons in the tier. It also utilizes spore... What more do I really need to say?
 

Amoongus: Unranked ------> C/C+

Having Amoongus as unranked now that it is OU doesn't sit right with me. Amoongus is a pretty solid pivot on Cyclhom and other phyiscally defensive mons in the tier. It also utilizes spore... What more do I really need to say?
A lot, actually.

8 SpA Cyclohm Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 184-218 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Cyclohm Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 248-294 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Cyclohm Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 204-240 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Yeah, it's not a good pivot on Cyclohm (These are itemless calcs. Throw in a life orb or specs, and then you'll get legitimate results; this is just to show you that it can't really pivot all that well into it).

What Amoonguss does well at is coming in on stuff like Clefable, Assault Vest Colossoil if shroom is healthy (Note that life orb does enough to 2HKO), or most importantly Keldeo (Which is actually has a MUCH easier time against because Keldeo run HP ground, never icy wind), and threatening a sleep or a toxic or something like that. Spore is nice since grass types fear Sludge Bomb or Toxic, but after a Spore is used up, this suddenly is a non-issue, and in CAP meta, sleep isn't as much of a "Well I just lost this pokemon" kind of deal.

It's just forced out a lot, Aurumoth/Tomohawk/Cawmodore/Charizard/Gardevoir/Mollux/Plasmanta/etc., and I can't see it higher than C at the moment. The thing just REALLY struggles against any offensive teams and while it puts in work against balance, so do other bulky grass types like Pyroak and Mega Venusaur, which is some pretty heavy competition, Pyroak especially. Pyroak has tons more bulk, a unique typing, hits harder with STABs, and has nice moves like Roar and Will-o-Wisp to make up for the lack of Spore.

I agree with your nomination in the end though. There's just little to no reasoning, and the above paragraphs the reasoning for why it should be C rank.

Mod Edit: Put proper calcs in. And yes, the calcs show switching into clohm with Amoongus is not smart. This is different than saying clohm beats amoongus 100% of the time... personally I think this amoongus clohm thing is really dumb and more relevant mons would be better to judge Amoongus. So yeah, bringing up things like Clefable instead was helpful.
 

BP

Beers and Steers
is a Contributor to Smogon
Roserade: Unranked----> C+

Roserade has an offensive presence that is very UnderUsed...
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Roserade can run a variety of sets but my favorite are Specs and Scarf
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With great coverage moves and a base SpA of 125 and a more than decent SpD of 105 it makes it quite the hard hitter. Especially when you pair it with Choice Specs.
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Choice Scarf Roserade works as a great revenge killer. Roserade is basically a Hydreigon with better coverage and typing.

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252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 374-442 (89 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 510-602 (129.7 - 153.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Other than Fairy STAB and coverage, which seem to run rampant in CAP, it seems that most of the CAPs in the S and A+ ranks are either weak or resistent to Fairy. Only Aurumoth takes neutral damage, but cannot hit its weak spot (Considering its raw power after boosting, does it really need to?). Cyclohm, Colossoil, and Tomohawk are weak to Fairy, while Mollux and Cawmodore resist the attacking type. Good thing that none of the CAPmons actually have a Fairy typing right now.

Also, is Mega Crucibelle as good as people say it is? I agree with them, but I had to think about it for a while. It seems that its access to recoil-free Head Smash and Wood Hammer allow it to hit all four of the middle A-Rank CAPs for a lot of damage, only needing Gunk Shot for Fairy-types. Then Talonflame gets wrecked. Its power relies on moves of low accuracy, but so do users of the memetic Stone Edge and Focus Blast. U-turn allows it to scout against opponents that it would otherwise have a disadvantage against, such as Garchomp or Ferrothorn, and switch into something that can beat them into submission. Not sure how to use the calculator correctly, but Colossoil tends to run Assault Vest in ORAS (if I recall correctly), so it could get hit hard by recoil-free Wood Hammer. I guess I would have to nominate Crucibelle for a flat A Rank. Don't really know much about her base forme, since I only learn and understand competitive Pokémon from reading on the forums.
 
Oh thanks for reminding me BP:

CLEFABLE FOR A+ RANK

Ok, hold your horses and let me explain why Clefable just doesn't suit the CAP meta like it used to, or how it doesn't have as much of a splash on the CAP meta as it does in OU Lets start on the Pros.

Pros:

Clefable is a pure fairy type: plain and simple, and fairy types are one of, if not, THE best typing out there. This is only helped by 2 uncommon weaknesses in steel and poison, both of which is a pretty bad offensive typing. This means Clefable has a lot of opportunities to set up with a plethora of coverage, support and set up moves, only helped by its two stellar abilities, Magic Guard and Unaware, letting it be a pain to both Offensive and Defensive teams alike. Clefable can run a very nice Unaware set using its good special attack and moonblast to still get some damage off, picking off weakened threats whilst walling massive threats like Aurumoth, Keldeo, and Colossoil

Cons:

However, Clefable suffers from a few of crippling flaws that stop it from performing to the S rank standard. This includes big offensive threats which wall it, including Metagross-Mega, Crucibelle, Plasmanta, Naviathan, Mollux, Talonflame and basically any Pokemon that takes neutral from moonblast and has access to taunt. Along with this great Pokemon like Plasmanta and Crucibelle can take down Clefable extremely easily, both of which are getting increasingly common in the CAP metagame. Along with this, whilst Clefable has great natural bulk, it is only 90/73/90 which isn't the best; Clef needs 1 or even 2 boosts to hit hard enough to scare, so most of its threat comes from its Defensive presence, which can be broken through with a strong physical attack. Along with this, Unaware can take a more defensive side, yet it suffers from Special Attackers, (or depending on where you put your EV's Physical Attackers instead) and it's mostly forced to put its whole EV's into one stat otherwise it fails to live too many hits. It also is either forced to run Heal Bell or be very susceptible to hazards and all chip damage in general if it runs Unaware.

I would tag Vulpix mayhem but I don't know his Smogon :(
Ex don't roast me too much
 
This includes big offensive threats which wall it, including Metagross-Mega, Crucibelle, Plasmanta, Naviathan, Mollux, Talonflame and basically any Pokemon that takes neutral from moonblast and has access to taunt.
Those mons aren't complete counters because they aren't completely safe switch-ins since Clef has a trick to get around them.

It's called Thunder Wave.

(Plasmanta is the exception but that gets mauled by Colo, Chomp, Lando-T, etc)
 
On Clefable:

No. No no no no. Clefable is way too good to be anything except S, and there's a dozen reasons for it.
  • Clefable is one of the better tanks in the tier because its bulk is surprisingly nice. Because it's immune to hazards thanks to Magic Guard, it's harder to 2HKO than other threats who have to take into consideration burns, poison, stealth rocks, etc. The typing helps even further, giving it resistances to common types like Fighting, Dragon, Dark, and Bug even helps it take U-turns and Bug Buzz a bit better.
  • Clefable's checks and counters are almost always crippled by Thunder Wave, making Clefable one of the best paralysis spreaders in the tier. Mega Metagross, Scizor, Charizard, Gardevoir, Mollux, Manaphy, Talonflame, most of the tier, etc. hate paralysis and are suddenly much easier to beat once Clefable uses Thunder Wave on them.
  • Calm Mind is a great late game sweeper that just powers through so many defensive cores that can't do much back to it. Combine with Thunder Wave to bullshit your way through stuff that you think would beat it, like Volcanion.
  • Clefable has a vast amount of variation and customization and can do most of what you could think of. Coverage moves like Fire Blast, Ice Beam, and Psychic are all viable, and support moves like Stealth Rock, Heal Bell, and Wish let Clefable support its team.
  • You can put Clefable in so many builds that it's silly. Every balance team will love Clefable's presense, Stall can abuse both Unaware and Magic Guard, and even Bulky Offense loves the presence of a good blanket check/win con.
  • Clefable blanket checks a lot of pokemon. Cyclohm, Diancie, non-specs Keldeo, Kyurem-Black, and I'm tired of listing pokemon but this is just off the top of my head, all struggle to 2hko Clefable because you can't get passive damage on this thing. (And this is why unaware clefable sucks, it doesn't get a lot of these benefits). Meanwhile, Clefable is free to either bop them, or throw a Thunder Wave at them and heal until it feels like doing something. Also, the more Calm Minds you have, the more exponential this list gets. It's insane.
Clefable is really freaking good, use Magic Guard please.
 

cbrevan

spin, spin, spin
is a CAP Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
sparktrain, Exclaimer, and I have been taking a look at the current rankings and have compiled a list of what we think should be changed. Note that this aren't the official changes yet, as we'd like to see what other people think of these nominations.

Also, we've decided to consolidate the C ranks into a single rank due to both the high level of subjectivity when it comes to ranking these mons of a lower caliber, as well as the relative lack of people that have used said mons successfully in the CAP metagame, or even at all. A/B ranks are easier to split up since they generally consist of commonly used and impactful threats in the metagame, whereas C rank mons tend to require much more highly specialized support and are generally much less used, and assigning a subrank to said mons becomes really arbitrary and subjective.

Colossoil S -> A+
Despite Colossoil's massive usage, we no longer believe that our narwhal is the metagame shaping force it was in the past. Simply put, people are using other Ground-types in the metagame and Colossoil is facing the most competition its ever had for a teamslot this gen. On top of that, Colossoil has become one of the meta's most prepared for threats people have started to take advantage of its weaknesses. namely its lack of recovery and middling speed. As a result of this, Colossoil isn't single handily deciding games anymore and is more in line with other A+ Pokemon.

Aurumoth A+ -> S
Aurumoth has consistently proved to be one of the most deadly, unpredictable sweepers in the entire metagame. Between the three best boosting moves in the game in Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, and Tail Glow, and sets like All Out Attacker, it's nearly impossible to prepare for this Pokemon unless you're packing a Talonflame. Aurumoth has counterplay for all of its answers, can sweep entire teams with very little support, and provides support for its team with its offensive prowess and the ability to lure Pokemon by simply existing on your team, even if it's a No Guard set. With these reasons, we're finally nominating Aurumoth to S.

Altaria (Mega) A+ -> A
Altaria is a very good Dragon Dance sweeper, with its unique typing and extremely strong physical STAB, but it's finding difficulty in sweeping these days with its flagship set, with bulky offense gaining traction and priority being more and more prevalent. Tomohawk are carrying Nature Power more now, which can revenge kill Altaria pretty easily, and Crucibelle as a new addition to stop Altaria before it starts, are just two examples of new trends working against Altaria. While still a Pokemon to be feared, Altaria simply is not at the levels of Pokemon like Colossoil and Keldeo.

Crucibelle (Mega) to A+
Mega Crucibelle is an amazing offensive pivot in the meta because it threats such a wide swath of Pokemon with its Head Smash alone, deterring even Tomohawk from wanting to come in on it. For those Pokemon that can comfortably take it, however, Crucibelle has a lot of counterplay options, from Wood Hammer smashing Colossoil, to Low Kick against Steel types. U-turn lets Crucibelle escape basically anything it wants with its high Speed stat, while scouting for things like Illusion. To top off everything, it has Magic Guard to just avoid hazards altogether, which lets it perform better in a U-turn core than anything in the metagame, except maybe Syclant.

Kyurem-B A+ -> A
Kyurem-B is still a good offensive Pokemon, it's just that the offensive nature of the meta has hurt its best set, LO. LO sets are too slow to take advantage of its massive mixed nature against offensive teams so Kyurem-B is forced to use Scarf to not be dead weight in those matchups, but Scarf turns it from a great wallbreaker into a mediocre one at best. It suffers from a choose one sort of attitude in what it can do for a team and it can no longer be counted on to just rip through everything anymore as opposed to the balance brimmed metagame in which it thrived. Also note the popularity of Crucibelle, Mega Metagross, and other Kyurem-B checks that put a lot of pressure on it.

Mollux A+ -> A
Aside from the addition of an additional check in the Crucibelle forms, the inclusion of more Ground-types in along with the already prevalent Colossoil severly limits what Mollux can do. As a Scarfer its very limited to what it can revenge kill due to its low base speed and cannot be relied on to keep Aurumoth in check. We've found that Mollux is comparable to Heatran, Talonflame, and Volkraken, which are also equally diverse offensive Fire-types that currently reside in A.

Talonflame A+ -> A
Whilst Talonflame is still the number one revenge killer in the metagame, the increased popularity of Landorus-T, Garchomp, and the introduction of the Crucibelle forms have put a severe damper on its sweeping abilities. Its still a diverse and powerful mon, but it cannot be relied upon to sweep as reliably anymore.

Gliscor A -> A-
Gliscor faces a lot of competition from other bulky Ground-types, particularly Landorus-T, which offer more in terms of gaining momentum with Intimidate and U-turn or greater utility in what they can check. Sword Dance sets aren't as effective at setting up on Tomohawk anymore due to the popularity of Hurricane sets.

Slowbro (Mega) A -> A-
Mega Bro suffers from need to setup and underwhelming speed and special defense in comparison to other Mega win conditions such as Mega Sableye, and status just makes it really hard to use. Toxic is a very popular move now, being used as filler for things like Garchomp and Mega Lopunny.

Syclant A -> A+
The godfather of CAP U-Turn, Syclant boasts excellent attacking stats on top of being one of the few viable offensive Ice types in the tier. Whilst some may compare Syclant to Stratagem, our other resident fast special CAP, Syclant has the one up with actual depth to its sets. Syclant has the ability to revenge kill, steal momentum, and even sweep, all in a single game due to its access to good coverage, Tail Glow, and U-turn. Syclant also has excellent matchups against most of the higher ranks with the ability to break through walls with Tail Glow or tank a hit with Focus Sash.

Tornadus-T A -> A+
Tornadus-T is a incredibly versatile threat that can be either an offensive monster or a bulky offensive pivot to equal success. Torn's ability to pivot out and wear down its checks and counters with Uturn + Regen and then swoop in for the kill later with Hurricane is amazing, and an excellent momentum grabber as well. AV has the ability to check toptier threats such as Cawmodore and Tomohawk and LO has the ability to blast through slower mons such as Clefable, Colossoil, and Garchomp. Its just good shit that compresses roles nicely.

Venusaur (Mega) A -> A-
Mega Venusaur can still check Diancie and whatnot, but a lot of the stuff it checks (Mega Altaria, Sylveon, and to a lesser extent Azumarill) have gotten worse, not to the increase of offensive Tomohawks and Tornadus-T in the meta.

Slowbro to A
Takes hits, statuses stuff, then switches out and comes back in later healthier than before. Its a reliable mon for balance and stall alike and can blanket check a large portion of physical attackers in the tier, notable Metagross. Slowbro is comparable to other balance/stall Pokemon such as Skarmory and Pyroak.

Volcanion to A
Volcanion is a powerful offensive Water/Fire type and is very similiar to Volkraken in viability due to the competition they have for a teamslot and their ability to break through similiar mons. Where Volcanion differs though is that it has better coverage in the form of Earth Power and a Water immunity that allows it more switch in oppurtunities, along with the most spammable move in the game in Steam Eruption.

Landorus-T A- -> A
This guy has been seeing increased usage and for good reason. People have finally realized how amazing Landorus-T is at compressing roles, from defensive pivot to Flying check to Stealth Rock setter, Landorus-T does it all. The fact that Landorus-T checks opposing grounds as well is a massive bonus, and offensive sets are able to easily abuse Landorus-T's massive 145 attack stat.

Latios A- -> A
Latios hits hard. People tend to avoid using Latios because it has a weakness to fairies, ices, and Colossoil, but really, nothing is safe from Latios' crazy powerful moves. Grass Knot has gained traction as an option for stuff like Colossoil and Hippowdon, forcing Hippowdon out of any situation it could have possibly hoped to win while also forcing Colossoil to think twice before hitting Pursuit and creating a risky position for the Colossoil user. Secondly, most fairies are bopped pretty hard by Psyshock, preventing them from switching in easily.

I needn't remind you guys what Draco Meteor does, I think you guys get it by now.

Rotom-W A- -> A
This is another case of amazing role compression in that Rotom-W is a Ground, Flying, and Water check all in one. Its a very splashable utility mon and is a great addition to any VoltTurn core. Its more utility is more similiar to the Pokemon in A than those in A-.

Sylveon A- -> B-
Specs is arguably the best and least outclassed set at the moment, which is already suffering in the current meta for various reasons; defensive's set's main niche lies in reliably checking Colossoil/Tomohawk in the same slot, which clef can't do, but there are generally more efficient and rewarding builds than ones that require slapping on cleric Sylveon to fix a gaping weakness to the two most common pokemon in the metagame.

Bisharp B+ -> A-
Yes Bisharp has problems with some popular mons, Tomohawk and Garchomp come to mind, but the sheer power of Bisharp puts it on par with most of the mons in A-. Swords Dance turns Bisharp into a destroyer of worlds and even without a boost LO Sucker Punch hits very hard. Matchup wise Bisharp takes on Aurumoth and Clefable with ease and is a reliable Jirachi Pursuit trapper. People are also turning to Landorus-t as their bulky ground more and more now, while Colossoil and Garchomp are both seeing a slight decline (not to mention Hippowdon is sorta dying off), which is only good news for Bisharp as Lando is a terrible Bisharp check.

Diggersby B+ -> B-
Sadly, Diggersby is not that good. Its slow and really frail, which is a major downside in an offensively inclined metagame. Yes it hits hard, but other stuff also hit hard and can setup more reliably (like landog). Diggerysy still suffers from its Tomohawk issues as well, and it can't rely on outspeeding Tomohawk anymore due to the increase of offensive sets.

Fidgit B+ -> A-
Fidgit has a niche through TR and tailwind, yeah, but the thing is that those are just one half of it; the other half is that Fidgit controls the hazard game about as well as Sableye and Colossoil because it has access to every relevant hazard in the game, in addition to the ability to spin away all of them as well. It's resistant to rocks, absorbs t-spikes, has recovery (Granted it's Wish, but still), u-turn, easy spike stacking abilities against teams without rebound colo, and its bulk is nice for making all of these happen.

Starmie B+ -> A- heyyyyyyyy yaaaaaaa
Starmie is one of the best offensive spinners in the metagame, the only real competition comes from Colossoil and Tomohawk, and Starmie is able to check a different group of Pokemon, notably faster attackers such as Mega Diancie.

Weavile B+ -> A-
Great speed and offensive stats on top of a great offensive typing in CAP. Its an offensive ice type with access to Pursuit to remove annoying mons such as Jirachi. Also threats Tornadus-T well and love Landorus-T and Garchomp becoming popular.

Crucibelle to B+
Amazing pivot, hazard stacker, mold breaker is cool, regenerator is cooler, and it hits hard still. The bulky regen set fills a neat niche on stall thanks to unique typing + support options + longevity + a pivot move in u-turn, which is super neato for preserving momentum, something stall tends to struggle with maintaining.

Breloom B -> B+
Spore is godly, Technician Bullet Seed even more so. Its an interesting case where it matches up poorly against the top threats but can threaten them reliably through Spore. End of the matter is that nothing bar grass types really want to switch in on Breloom, and Breloom is able to punish slower teams with powerful stabs and offense w/ mach punch. Versatile and reliable enough for b+

Heracross (Mega) B -> B+
Increase of stall teams mean Heracross has more things to crack open like a walnut. Swords Dance causes Heracross to hit like a fucking nuke and not many walls can take more than two attacks from it. Throw in great bulk and you got a premier wallbreaker. Also has a nice matchup against a lot of teams because its bulk lets it survive hits from hyper offense, while it can punch holes in slower balance and bulky offense.

Naviathan B -> B+
Another benefactor from the increase of stall, Naviathan is a wonderful option for balance/offense that need a reliable stallbreaker. Also checks stuff like Talonflame well.

Terrakion B -> B+
Exclaimer says banded set is really good at breaking stall cores, which is good in this meta.

Scizor to B
Good on teams already using a mega, decent u-turn and fairy check. Sword dance sets are important in steels spam cores for weakening Cyclohm.

Gyarados to B
Faces competition from gatr and its mega, but ability to set up and threaten some variants of Tomohawk is great, bulkier sets are decent too.

Alakazam to B
Fasthard hitting psychic, threatens Tomohawk, Crucibelle, Keldeo, and a lot of other fast stuff. Its held back by colo/prio in general but can work on offense none the less.

Blastoise (Mega) B- -> C
Slow, no recovery, there's a dozen more effective megas that are easier to fit on a team.

Conkeldurr B- -> C
Loses to every S rank mon and is too slow to achieve much as an offensive mon, not to mention Tomohawk and Tornadus-T just blow it out of the water.

Malaconda C- -> B-
Malaconda this thing isn't as bad as people say it is. iIve convinced a few people of this already, for real though this thing eats up special hits from the likes of Manaphy really well, eats up unboosted Clefable Moonblast, has a really neat movepool w/ knock off/spin/glare to mess w/ opponent and support the team. It's the most reliable lati trapper out of all the pursuit users since it doesn't fall to specific coverage moves (unless lati starts running hp bug lol) and doesn't require a scarf. Gains momentum w/ U-turn. now i don't think it's as good as pyroak for example, but i think it's similar to pyroak in that people loved to hate it and say it's terrible until someone figured out wow, it's not shit and actually does stuff if used properly. Mala is not an A rank mon, but it's at the very least B- imo, and is better than 99% of the garbage throughout the C ranks.

Blissey D
Its 100% worse than Chansey why are you using this. Lefties don't make much a difference if its taking 50% more damage from physical attackers, and seeing as residual lefties recovery is one of its main selling points over chansey, sand not being too common at all severely limits scenarios where it's actually useful over Chansey. being able to run shed shell is also a moot point now with the shadow tag ban.

Sableye D
Why would you ever use this when there are better stallbreakers, better ghosts, better everything. Not to mention its mega exists which just puts the base to shame.

Hoopa to D
Dies to Darks and Ghosts but it can Nasty Plot up on stallteams and blow some holes there.
 
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snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
sparktrain, Exclaimer, and I have been taking a look at the current rankings and have compiled a list of what we think should be changed. Note that this aren't the official changes yet, as we'd like to see what other people think of these nominations.

Also, we've decided to consolidate the C ranks into a single rank due to both the high level of subjectivity when it comes to ranking these mons of a lower caliber, as well as the relative lack of people that have used said mons successfully in the CAP metagame, or even at all. A/B ranks are easier to split up since they generally consist of commonly used and impactful threats in the metagame, whereas C rank mons tend to require much more highly specialized support and are generally much less used, and assigning a subrank to said mons becomes really arbitrary and subjective.

Colossoil S -> A+
Despite Colossoil's massive usage, we no longer believe that our narwhal is the metagame shaping force it was in the past. Simply put, people are using other Ground-types in the metagame and Colossoil is facing the most competition its ever had for a teamslot this gen. On top of that, Colossoil has become one of the meta's most prepared for threats people have started to take advantage of its weaknesses. namely its lack of recovery and middling speed. As a result of this, Colossoil isn't single handily deciding games anymore and is more in line with other A+ Pokemon.

Aurumoth A+ -> S
Aurumoth has consistently proved to be one of the most deadly, unpredictable sweepers in the entire metagame. Between the three best boosting moves in the game in Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, and Tail Glow, and sets like All Out Attacker, it's nearly impossible to prepare for this Pokemon unless you're packing a Talonflame. Aurumoth has counterplay for all of its answers, can sweep entire teams with very little support, and provides support for its team with its offensive prowess and the ability to lure Pokemon by simply existing on your team, even if it's a No Guard set. With these reasons, we're finally nominating Aurumoth to S.

Altaria (Mega) A+ -> A
Altaria is a very good Dragon Dance sweeper, with its unique typing and extremely strong physical STAB, but it's finding difficulty in sweeping these days with its flagship set, with bulky offense gaining traction and priority being more and more prevalent. Tomohawk are carrying Nature Power more now, which can revenge kill Altaria pretty easily, and Crucibelle as a new addition to stop Altaria before it starts, are just two examples of new trends working against Altaria. While still a Pokemon to be feared, Altaria simply is not at the levels of Pokemon like Colossoil and Keldeo.

Crucibelle (Mega) to A+
Mega Crucibelle is an amazing offensive pivot in the meta because it threats such a wide swath of Pokemon with its Head Smash alone, deterring even Tomohawk from wanting to come in on it. For those Pokemon that can comfortably take it, however, Crucibelle has a lot of counterplay options, from Wood Hammer smashing Colossoil, to Low Kick against Steel types. U-turn lets Crucibelle escape basically anything it wants with its high Speed stat, while scouting for things like Illusion. To top off everything, it has Magic Guard to just avoid hazards altogether, which lets it perform better in a U-turn core than anything in the metagame, except maybe Syclant.

Kyurem-B A+ -> A
Kyurem-B is still a good offensive Pokemon, it's just that the offensive nature of the meta has hurt its best set, LO. LO sets are too slow to take advantage of its massive mixed nature against offensive teams so Kyurem-B is forced to use Scarf to not be dead weight in those matchups, but Scarf turns it from a great wallbreaker into a mediocre one at best. It suffers from a choose one sort of attitude in what it can do for a team and it can no longer be counted on to just rip through everything anymore as opposed to the balance brimmed metagame in which it thrived. Also note the popularity of Crucibelle, Mega Metagross, and other Kyurem-B checks that put a lot of pressure on it.

Mollux A+ -> A
Aside from the addition of an additional check in the Crucibelle forms, the inclusion of more Ground-types in along with the already prevalent Colossoil severly limits what Mollux can do. As a Scarfer its very limited to what it can revenge kill due to its low base speed and cannot be relied on to keep Aurumoth in check. We've found that Mollux is comparable to Heatran, Talonflame, and Volkraken, which are also equally diverse offensive Fire-types that currently reside in A.

Talonflame A+ -> A
Whilst Talonflame is still the number one revenge killer in the metagame, the increased popularity of Landorus-T, Garchomp, and the introduction of the Crucibelle forms have put a severe damper on its sweeping abilities. Its still a diverse and powerful mon, but it cannot be relied upon to sweep as reliably anymore.

Gliscor A -> A-
Gliscor faces a lot of competition from other bulky Ground-types, particularly Landorus-T, which offer more in terms of gaining momentum with Intimidate and U-turn or greater utility in what they can check. Sword Dance sets aren't as effective at setting up on Tomohawk anymore due to the popularity of Hurricane sets.

Slowbro (Mega) A -> A-
Mega Bro suffers from need to setup and underwhelming speed and special defense in comparison to other Mega win conditions such as Mega Sableye, and status just makes it really hard to use. Toxic is a very popular move now, being used as filler for things like Garchomp and Mega Lopunny.

Syclant A -> A+
The godfather of CAP U-Turn, Syclant boasts excellent attacking stats on top of being one of the few viable offensive Ice types in the tier. Whilst some may compare Syclant to Stratagem, our other resident fast special CAP, Syclant has the one up with actual depth to its sets. Syclant has the ability to revenge kill, steal momentum, and even sweep, all in a single game due to its access to good coverage, Tail Glow, and U-turn. Syclant also has excellent matchups against most of the higher ranks with the ability to break through walls with Tail Glow or tank a hit with Focus Sash.

Tornadus-T A -> A+
Tornadus-T is a incredibly versatile threat that can be either an offensive monster or a bulky offensive pivot to equal success. Torn's ability to pivot out and wear down its checks and counters with Uturn + Regen and then swoop in for the kill later with Hurricane is amazing, and an excellent momentum grabber as well. AV has the ability to check toptier threats such as Cawmodore and Tomohawk and LO has the ability to blast through slower mons such as Clefable, Colossoil, and Garchomp. Its just good shit that compresses roles nicely.

Venusaur (Mega) A -> A-
Mega Venusaur can still check Diancie and whatnot, but a lot of the stuff it checks (Mega Altaria, Sylveon, and to a lesser extent Azumarill) have gotten worse, not to the increase of offensive Tomohawks and Tornadus-T in the meta.

Slowbro to A
Takes hits, statuses stuff, then switches out and comes back in later healthier than before. Its a reliable mon for balance and stall alike and can blanket check a large portion of physical attackers in the tier, notable Metagross. Slowbro is comparable to other balance/stall Pokemon such as Skarmory and Pyroak.

Volcanion to A
Volcanion is a powerful offensive Water/Fire type and is very similiar to Volkraken in viability due to the competition they have for a teamslot and their ability to break through similiar mons. Where Volcanion differs though is that it has better coverage in the form of Earth Power and a Water immunity that allows it more switch in oppurtunities, along with the most spammable move in the game in Steam Eruption.

Landorus-T A- -> A
This guy has been seeing increased usage and for good reason. People have finally realized how amazing Landorus-T is at compressing roles, from defensive pivot to Flying check to Stealth Rock setter, Landorus-T does it all. The fact that Landorus-T checks opposing grounds as well is a massive bonus, and offensive sets are able to easily abuse Landorus-T's massive 145 attack stat.

Latios A- -> A
Latios hits hard. People tend to avoid using Latios because it has a weakness to fairies, ices, and Colossoil, but really, nothing is safe from Latios' crazy powerful moves. Grass Knot has gained traction as an option for stuff like Colossoil and Hippowdon, forcing Hippowdon out of any situation it could have possibly hoped to win while also forcing Colossoil to think twice before hitting Pursuit and creating a risky position for the Colossoil user. Secondly, most fairies are bopped pretty hard by Psyshock, preventing them from switching in easily.

I needn't remind you guys what Draco Meteor does, I think you guys get it by now.

Rotom-W A- -> A
This is another case of amazing role compression in that Rotom-W is a Ground, Flying, and Water check all in one. Its a very splashable utility mon and is a great addition to any VoltTurn core. Its more utility is more similiar to the Pokemon in A than those in A-.

Sylveon A- -> B-
Specs is arguably the best and least outclassed set at the moment, which is already suffering in the current meta for various reasons; defensive's set's main niche lies in reliably checking Colossoil/Tomohawk in the same slot, which clef can't do, but there are generally more efficient and rewarding builds than ones that require slapping on cleric Sylveon to fix a gaping weakness to the two most common pokemon in the metagame.

Bisharp B+ -> A-
Yes Bisharp has problems with some popular mons, Tomohawk and Garchomp come to mind, but the sheer power of Bisharp puts it on par with most of the mons in A-. Swords Dance turns Bisharp into a destroyer of worlds and even without a boost LO Sucker Punch hits very hard. Matchup wise Bisharp takes on Aurumoth and Clefable with ease and is a reliable Jirachi Pursuit trapper. People are also turning to Landorus-t as their bulky ground more and more now, while Colossoil and Garchomp are both seeing a slight decline (not to mention Hippowdon is sorta dying off), which is only good news for Bisharp as Lando is a terrible Bisharp check.

Diggersby B+ -> B-
Sadly, Diggersby is not that good. Its slow and really frail, which is a major downside in an offensively inclined metagame. Yes it hits hard, but other stuff also hit hard and can setup more reliably (like landog). Diggerysy still suffers from its Tomohawk issues as well, and it can't rely on outspeeding Tomohawk anymore due to the increase of offensive sets.

Fidgit B+ -> A-
Fidgit has a niche through TR and tailwind, yeah, but the thing is that those are just one half of it; the other half is that Fidgit controls the hazard game about as well as Sableye and Colossoil because it has access to every relevant hazard in the game, in addition to the ability to spin away all of them as well. It's resistant to rocks, absorbs t-spikes, has recovery (Granted it's Wish, but still), u-turn, easy spike stacking abilities against teams without rebound colo, and its bulk is nice for making all of these happen.

Starmie B+ -> A- heyyyyyyyy yaaaaaaa
Starmie is one of the best offensive spinners in the metagame, the only real competition comes from Colossoil and Tomohawk, and Starmie is able to check a different group of Pokemon, notably faster attackers such as Mega Diancie.

Weavile B+ -> A-
Great speed and offensive stats on top of a great offensive typing in CAP. Its an offensive ice type with access to Pursuit to remove annoying mons such as Jirachi. Also threats Tornadus-T well and love Landorus-T and Garchomp becoming popular.

Crucibelle to B+
Amazing pivot, hazard stacker, mold breaker is cool, regenerator is cooler, and it hits hard still. The bulky regen set fills a neat niche on stall thanks to unique typing + support options + longevity + a pivot move in u-turn, which is super neato for preserving momentum, something stall tends to struggle with maintaining.

Breloom B -> B+
Spore is godly, Technician Bullet Seed even more so. Its an interesting case where it matches up poorly against the top threats but can threaten them reliably through Spore. End of the matter is that nothing bar grass types really want to switch in on Breloom, and Breloom is able to punish slower teams with powerful stabs and offense w/ mach punch. Versatile and reliable enough for b+

Heracross (Mega) B -> B+
Increase of stall teams mean Heracross has more things to crack open like a walnut. Swords Dance causes Heracross to hit like a fucking nuke and not many walls can take more than two attacks from it. Throw in great bulk and you got a premier wallbreaker. Also has a nice matchup against a lot of teams because its bulk lets it survive hits from hyper offense, while it can punch holes in slower balance and bulky offense.

Naviathan B -> B+
Another benefactor from the increase of stall, Naviathan is a wonderful option for balance/offense that need a reliable stallbreaker. Also checks stuff like Talonflame well.

Terrakion B -> B+
Exclaimer says banded set is really good at breaking stall cores, which is good in this meta.

Scizor to B
Good on teams already using a mega, decent u-turn and fairy check. Sword dance sets are important in steels spam cores for weakening Cyclohm.

Gyarados to B
Faces competition from gatr and its mega, but ability to set up and threaten some variants of Tomohawk is great, bulkier sets are decent too.

Alakazam to B
Fasthard hitting psychic, threatens Tomohawk, Crucibelle, Keldeo, and a lot of other fast stuff. Its held back by colo/prio in general but can work on offense none the less.

Blastoise (Mega) B- -> C
Slow, no recovery, there's a dozen more effective megas that are easier to fit on a team.

Conkeldurr B- -> C
Loses to every S rank mon and is too slow to achieve much as an offensive mon, not to mention Tomohawk and Tornadus-T just blow it out of the water.

Malaconda C- -> B-
Malaconda this thing isn't as bad as people say it is. iIve convinced a few people of this already, for real though this thing eats up special hits from the likes of Manaphy really well, eats up unboosted Clefable Moonblast, has a really neat movepool w/ knock off/spin/glare to mess w/ opponent and support the team. It's the most reliable lati trapper out of all the pursuit users since it doesn't fall to specific coverage moves (unless lati starts running hp bug lol) and doesn't require a scarf. Gains momentum w/ U-turn. now i don't think it's as good as pyroak for example, but i think it's similar to pyroak in that people loved to hate it and say it's terrible until someone figured out wow, it's not shit and actually does stuff if used properly. Mala is not an A rank mon, but it's at the very least B- imo, and is better than 99% of the garbage throughout the C ranks.

Blissey D
Its 100% worse than Chansey why are you using this. Lefties don't make much a difference if its taking 50% more damage from physical attackers, and seeing as residual lefties recovery is one of its main selling points over chansey, sand not being too common at all severely limits scenarios where it's actually useful over Chansey. being able to run shed shell is also a moot point now with the shadow tag ban.

Sableye D
Why would you ever use this when there are better stallbreakers, better ghosts, better everything. Not to mention its mega exists which just puts the base to shame.

Hoopa to D
Dies to Darks and Ghosts but it can Nasty Plot up on stallteams and blow some holes there.
I'd like to give some comments on cbrevan's nominations:

Colossoil S -> A+
I agree with this in some ways, but in other ways I don't. Despite having Tomohawk as a complete and very reliable counter, it has little other switch ins, namely Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Arghonaut, Gyarados, Keldeo, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Mega Heracross. The problem with these switch ins are:
a) They can take up your Mega slot
b) Most of them are really slow/stally
Honestly Colossoil, while having competition with other Ground-types, still impacts teambuilding due to its ability to remove items/hit things with Sucker Punch. I personally think it should stay at S.

Aurumoth A+ -> S
Now this I agree with. However, Aurumoth does have a pretty close counter, which is Unaware Clefable, which can stall out Aurumoth's Overheat PP (even though Unaware ignores the SpA drop).

252 SpA Life Orb Aurumoth Overheat vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 185-218 (47 - 55.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I still think S would be a great place for Aurumoth, its just that Clefable can be a hard stop to it if the opponent keeps it healthy.

Talonflame A+ -> A
While Talonflame is best known for its revenge killing sets, it also has its Specially Defensive Stallbreaker set. It can break every stall threat aside from Unaware mons, Cyclohm, and Jirachi. It can also stomach hard hits Latios' Draco Meteor (and can then stall it out at -2), Fire Blast from Mega Charizard Y, Colossoil's Knock Off. With the increased usage of stall in the meta, I'd be interested to see if this set rises in popularity.

Rotom-W A- -> A
This one is cool because it can outplay most Colossoil variants. You just need to be slower, tank a Knock Off, and Pain Split and then Hydro Pump. It's not the best way to deal with Colossoil, but it works well enough.

Starmie B+ -> A- heyyyyyyyy yaaaaaaa
You didn't mention Trick. I'm disappointed.
 
Colossoil S -> A+
I agree with this in some ways, but in other ways I don't. Despite having Tomohawk as a complete and very reliable counter, it has little other switch ins, namely Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Arghonaut, Gyarados, Keldeo, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Mega Heracross. The problem with these switch ins are:
a) They can take up your Mega slot
b) Most of them are really slow/stally
Honestly Colossoil, while having competition with other Ground-types, still impacts teambuilding due to its ability to remove items/hit things with Sucker Punch. I personally think it should stay at S.
The problem with this counterargument is that a lot of these Pokemon are extremely common. Mega Scizor, Skarm, Ferrothorn, Keldeo, Lando, and Rotom (In addition to Tomohawk) are everywhere in this metagame, and most teams carry two of these things. Most well built teams anyways. That makes Colossoil a lot less dangerous than it ought to be with that gigantic attack stat. However, the big thing is that Colossoil pivots out of a lot of these and has Knock Off, which annoys them a lot. Not enough for S for me, even though I used to agree with Colossoil staying with S. It's just not as good as it used to be.

However, life orb sets are the bomb.
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Well...what I'm trying to say is that it is a bit centralizing in that only two of those (Lando-T and Keldeo) are decently fast, so you have to run a slow mon just to have a good switch in for Colossoil. Idk I'd be ok with A+, but I still support S...
 

cbrevan

spin, spin, spin
is a CAP Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Back when we first decided to bump Colossoil up to S the metagame largely revolved around it and Tomohawk; Colossoil was so dominant that Pokemon such as Latios and Starmie weren't even considered viable because they would become liabilities on any team they were a part of. It was just a given that the opposing team would have a Colossoil and you'd need to prepare for it heavily and in this way Colossoil was justified as a S rank. Its impact on the metagame was largely felt through the number of Pokemon it restricted, and it was without a doubt the best Ground-type and Dark-type in the metagame due its role compression and favorable matchups with the ubiquitous Mollux and Cyclohm.

The metagame has shifted miles since then with the growing popularity of OU tier staples such as Tornadus-T, Landorus-T, and Garchomp along with the introduction of Crucibelle into the metagame. For the first time in a very long time Colossoil faces actual competition from other Ground-types for a teamslot. Additionally, the metagame has arguably gotten both faster paced in terms of offensive threats used and fatter in the usage of stall teams. Both of these trends are unfavorable for Colossoil due to the limitations of its stats and recovery; Colossoil is unable to out damage faster offensive threats through Sucker Punch alone and is also unable to break through common stall Pokemon such as Tomohawk, Skarmory, and Mega Sableye. People have also figured out that Colossoil can be handled by overloading it with damage due to its lack of recovery; even Pokemon that should be easily check by Colossoil, such as Plasmanta and Latios, are able to break through it with some prior damage. Whilst Colossoil is still an excellent Pokemon in the metagame, it is not on the level of over the top threats such as Clefable, Aurumoth, and Tomohawk. Those three previously mentioned Pokemon have the ability to run a multitude of sets and are able to get past their checks and counters through their expansive movepool. Colossoil does not have anywhere near this flexibility, as its common set has a variance of about three moves in a single moveslot. It is simply too predictable and easy to prepare for to be considered an S rank anymore.

If we take a look at the current rankings and even those I proposed earlier, an overwhelming majority of Pokemon in the upper ranks are able to either switch in to Colossoil or outdamage it in a 1v1 situation. The fact that so many Pokemon have a favorable matchup with Colossoil is proof that the metagame has adapted to Colossoil well enough to no longer justify it's S rank. Colossoil is more comparable to other CAP powerhouses, such as Mega Diancie, Mega Scizor, Azumarill, and Keldeo, that excel in more select number of roles than the incredibly versatile S ranks.

Finally, I wish to address what I believe is a common misconception around Colossoil, that its top usage on the CAP ladder equates to being one of the most viable Pokémon in the metagame. Colossoil is not the most used Pokémon because it is the best Pokémon in the metagame, it is used because it is the easiest to throw on a team. Colossoil can be likened to Landorus-T in OU, which also has the highest usage by in its respective metagame but is not currently S rank. Their usage stems not from they're ability to win matches, but from their ability to fill holes within a team, as both Colossoil and Landorus-T are glue Pokémon that are able to compress a large number of roles in order to support its team. These Pokémon are not the main win condition of the team and very rarely does a team set out with the goal of expressly using Colossoil or Landorus-T, rather they are added during the teambuilding process to address problems the team may have. They are metagame defining in the sense that they are good Pokémon that are very popular, as all A+ ranks are, but not metagame defining in that they can power through even well built teams with a little team support, as is the case with S ranks. Colossoil isn't sweeping anyone, it isn't blasting through its checks with an unexpected set, and it isn't winning entire games by itself. It's a good Pokémon to slap on a team, but it isn't the whole show.

In response to snake_rattler's point about Knock Off and Sucker Punch restricting teambuilding, I believe you are exaggerating this two moves quite a bit. They're good moves but no one is creating a team with the express purpose of playing around these moves outside of adding a Dark-type check. Yes it sucks to lose an item or die to priority but they're just stuff that happens during the game that players would need to handle and prepare for regardless of Colossoil. Do you really believe Colossoil's access to these two moves justify its placement in S while there are Pokémon that also have access to Knock Off and strong priority in A+?
 
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To add onto the above: If Knock Off + Sucker Punch was so good, Bisharp would be much higher just because it has Swords Dance to makes both of those moves hit even harder, in addition to Iron Head to hit Fairy types, which Colossoil has to use a non-stab Iron Tail (I can tell you how good an idea that is: it's not) to come close to replicating.

Good moves? yes. But they don't make Colossoil as good as it is; Colossoil's strength comes from its amazing typing/incredibly well distributed stats/utility in its attacking moves.
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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I mentioned Sucker Punch, but I never mentioned Knock Off.

But anyways, I can see Colossoil in A+ now. Out of cbro's well built post, this is what fully convinced me.

They are metagame defining in the sense that they are good Pokémon that are very popular, as all A+ ranks are, but not metagame defining in that they can power through even well built teams with a little team support, as is the case with S ranks. Colossoil isn't sweeping anyone, it isn't blasting through its checks with an unexpected set, and it isn't winning entire games by itself. It's a good Pokémon to slap on a team, but it isn't the whole show.
 

cbrevan

spin, spin, spin
is a CAP Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Hey guys, I'd like to be able to get this thread update for the first week of CAPTT and the upcoming CAP 22 project. In 24 hours I plan to update this thread based on this post, so if you have any objections to any of those nominations or have any additional nominations to make make them now. Anything that is dispute I'll hold off from moving until that discussion has resolved. Thank you everyone who's been posting in this thread and keeping it alive, the team appreciates it!

I'd also like to touch up on a nomination that was brought up in this thread that we missed in out initial post.
Amoonguss to B-
We believe that Amoonguss's ability to replace Mega Venusaur on stall teams while allowing the use of other defensive Mega Pokemon, notably Mega Sableye, is enough for it to be B-. Constant recovery and good bulk allows it to check several top tier threats, such as Keldeo and Colossoil, which along with access to Spore puts it on par with the other Pokemon in B-.

EDIT: List is updated.
 
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Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I have an idea...


A+ ---> S

Cawmodore is one of the best setup sweepers in the metagame thanks to Belly Drum + Acrobatics + its high speed being so powerful and effective upon what it wants to do. Crucibelle's introduction in the metagame has greatly had an influence on the viability of certain Fire-types such as Mollux and Volkraken from checking Cawmodore before it starts to setup. Potential checks such as Magnezone, Plasmanta, and Cyclohm aren't even that reliable thanks to Volt Absorb, and the recent rise of Stall also allows Cawmodore the opportunity to setup more effectively due to it being immune from Toxic stalling. It can beat all the S-Rank mons and most of the other A-Rank mons, and its great influence on the meta makes me believe it is deserving of S-rank.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun

A+ ---> A
Manaphy isn't a metagame defining threat anymore. Many Pokemon out speed Manaphy and can deal a large amount of damage to it, it is very hard to be a stall breaker when it struggles versus Chansey and Quagsire. Not to mention Volcanion entering in the tier has a very high impact on Manaphy and we already know of Plasmanta and Mollux. In order to get past certain checks it has to run sub optimal coverage which really leaves Manaphy open. Overall Manaphy just struggles with way too much to earn a spot in A+
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

Tier 3 Audino sub
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
As much as I support caw to s, some of your points are a bit off.
- volkraken can still threaten cruci as well as cawm with hydro (which I believe ohkos caw if modest scarf)
- magnezone and plas have hp fire which can do about 75% at least and cyclohm has fire blast which ohkos with 16 spa investment

mana can drop; it needs STAB/e-ball/psychic/ice beam/hp fire/tail glow as well as needing a lot more support from its team mates than other a+ mons
 

cbrevan

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I am very much against Cawmodore to S for exactly the same reasons why we've shot that nomination down in the past. There's no doubt its a beast of a mon that can sweep entire teams, but the fact of the matter is that Cawmodore needs an entire team built around it to be effective at all due to the inclusion of its checks and counters on the majority of CAP teams. The same can be said about other set up sweepers in A+ such as Mega Scizor and Mega Charizhard X, both of which are more versatile than Cawmodore and actually have more chances for setup due to the one-and-done nature of Cawmodore.

In response to some of the points Funbot28 brought up,the statement that Cawmdore beats the current S ranks is a very limited viewpoint that doesn't consider the fact that Aurumoth and Tomohawk can both threaten to OHKO or heavily damage Cawmodore before its boosted or that Clefable's Unaware set is one of the most reliable defensive Cawmodore answers in the entire metagame. Additionally, saying Cyclohm isn't a reliable Cawmdore check when it is hands down the best Cawmodore counter in the game makes me wonder if you've even used either Pokemon. Mega Crucibelle even OHKOs Cawmodore with Head Smash so it seems like you're making the assumption that Cawmodore will always be able to get the boost off, which isn't even guaranteed when so many Pokemon are able to put it out of Belly Drum range in a single attack. There's also at least a half dozen checks that Stall teams can run without being forced to use mediocre options so saying the increase of stall is making Cawmodore suddenly way more effective than it once was is bit of an overstatement, especially when its one of the most chip-damage weary Pokemon in the metagame.

I have no opinion on Manaphy but I'd like to hear from some stall players if its still an effective answer to current builds and how much support is needed for it. It's viability is primarily based on its ability to break down stall teams so that would be the most important thing to look at imo.
 
Cawmodore most definitely has a major influence on the meta, but one of the main beefs I have with the S nomination is that it doesn't have some of the characteristics of a good, solid S rank.

1) It's wildly one-dimensional, and has only minor variance to help chunk one or two of its checks. SubSalac sets are neat but they're nowhere near as effective as the tried and true standard set. Look at the other S-ranks, and those Pokemon have at least three high-tier sets, with tons of variance and splashability. Cawmodore has none of these things.

2) Its counters and checks are useful for a lot of teams, even ignoring Cawmodore. Cyclohm walls physical threats like nobody's business, Scarf-waters threaten offensive teams very well and are potent revenge killers, etc.

3) It requires support, rather than giving support. Even Aurumoth, the newest S rank, supports its team by just existing and luring threats in for KO'ing or being setup bait.

Cawmodore is perhaps the most potent sweeper in the tier, but it's something you build around, not somethings that builds up a team on its own.

Cbrevan sorta-ninja'd me.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
So I'm going to make a post with all of the current ranks and comment on specific mons that I believe could have rank changes. I'm hoping that seeing the entire list of mons in my post will make comparisons easier to see and the ranks more easily defined at a glance.

S Rank


Seems fair.

A+ Rank


Manaphy: Honestly, I sort of agree with Take Azelfie. Setting up with Manaphy is a bit harder in practice than in theory because of Manaphy's less-than-stellar speed (which means it usually has to take an extra hit). Furthermore, on all sets it has coverage issues. It's certainly still great, but I don't think it's quite as splashable as the other A+ mons.
Syclant: This one I'm a bit more torn on. I don't necessarily disagree with it being A+, but I feel like it fits in A a bit better. It's very frail and priority weak, and doesn't have enough power to KO the bulky priority moves that run rampant in the meta (from Azu, Metagross, Scizor, etc.). Syclant doesn't strike me as a super devastating attacker and it is easily the frailest of all the A+ ranked mons so I don't believe it functions at their level. Syclant does, however, have range... and u-turn is great too.

A Rank


Volcanion: I think I wouldn't mind Volcanion being lowered down to A-, though I'm not particularly invested in this argument. It's speed is disappointing, which prevents it from running a Scarf set and thus makes it more predictable than its fire type peeps of Heatran, Mollux, and Volkraken. I think these other fire types simply have more range than Volcanion. Yes, Volcanion is attributed to having a better specs set than say Volkraken. I'm not denying that Volcanion has a specific advantage over these fire types, but this specific advantage is linked to a narrower set range that makes it more predictable. Once again, I'm not terribly invested in this argument however.

A- Rank


Starmie: I believe that Starmie's role as a speedy, offensive spinner is a bit overhyped. Life Orb Starmie is the set that I understand to be the reason for Starmie's promotion, and I think it exacerbates Starmie's issue with bulk and it's rather poor defensive typing. I personally look for defensive reliability in a spinner, which Starmie does not have (largely due to it's large number of weaknesses and average at best defenses). I will say Starmie has an interesting mix of offenses (particularly its speed) with access to Rapid Spin, and that this does give it a niche. I just don't think it's a great attacker or a great spinner... In some ways its a jack of trades mons, but master at none. Outspeeding and hitting Tomohawk and Mega Diancie is great. Getting one hit or two hit by almost any mildly offensive threat due to constantly taking super effective hits is not great. I think Starmie has role compression, it's just that is doesn't do a good job when compressed, if that makes sense :/

B+ Rank


Plasmanta: I think Plasmanta should be lowered to B or even B-. One of the qualities looked for in a Poison-Type in CAP is to be Fairy switch in, but Plasmanta's low Special Defense makes it less than ideal in this regard. As an Electric-type, qualities that are often looked for are the ability to check Caw, which Plasmanta struggles to and can only accomplish under very specific sets and circumstances. On the plus side, Plasmanta is able to threaten Tomohawk fairly effectively (except for Bulky Earth Power sets, but still they don't appreciate risking a turn of taking a full strength Tbolt in order to use EP) and Plasmanta can somewhat threaten other Electric-types such as Cyclohm and to a lesser extent Mega Manectric and Zapdos. I do think Plasmanta's offensive capabilities are commonly underestimated, but its average speed and poor Special Defense hold it back, as the meta commonly demands Electric-types to be bulkier (Manectric isn't particularly bulky either, but Intimidate is a big niche).

B Rank


Kabutops: Kabutops is utterly defined by rain, whereas Omastar at least has range with a Shell Smash set. I guess Ajet and SD give it range once the rain is gone, but ajet doesn't really have good coverage on other priority users (not named Talonflame) while Kabutops doesn't particularly appreciate getting hit with priority itself. Lastly, it really doesn't do much to the top mons in the metagame, other than pick off weakened slow Colossoil variants, or Colossoil when Rain is up. I feel like C is a better fit for Kabutops.
Kitsunoh: Kitsunoh has fallen a lot from grace since last gen, and now that Hoopa-U is gone, it's fallen even more. Kitsunoh's lack of power is disappointing, and Pursuit and Knock Off prevent it from being a stellar pivot anymore. It's a subpar scout and it's typing doesn't let it defog versus many of the common setters. It forces out fairies though, so I guess that's cool. I just think it relies on positive type matchups to do much of anything, and it doesn't have nearly as many as it would like. B-, simply because fairies are annoying I guess.

B- Rank


Alo: I think this thing should be lowered. A lot. To D. It's essentially limited to stall or near-stall teams due to it being an offensive buzzkill. It has a niche of having Wish + Knock Off, but in general the other Wish Passers have a much wider range of options (Chansey has heal bell, stealth rock, t wave, Vaporeon has an infinitely more powerful scald, baton pass, semi usable ice beam). While Scald might dissuade physical attackers, it does not dissuade Colossoil and special attackers tend to absolutely demolish Alo beyond repair.
Malaconda: I think Malaconda should be moved down to C. No, it is not utter trash (hence C, not D or unranked) but it's newfound offensive roles as a Sucker Puncher, Knock Offer, U-turner is rather outclassed by Colossoil. Even Malaconda's role as a special sponge is overlapped on with Colossoil. Glare of course is really cool. Anyway, the real reason why it struggles is because of its poor physical defense (and poor physically defensive typing) that makes it a liability. In this way, I think it's kinda like the specially defensive version of Alo, with Wish traded for Rapid Spin. But having one stellar high defense and one pitifully low one lets a mon be too easily exploited.
Dragalge: C? It beats up the offensive fairies quite well, but the Ground-types and Ground coverage seriously hold this thing from putting much pressure on teams when it is outside of TR.
Revenankh: C please (cbro). The fairies and psychics kinda eat this thing up, and sadly Shadow Sneak isn't able to KO the Psychics unless Rev has set up a lot. If there was a C+, I'd support that, but since it's gone, I think it fits C better than B-. On paper Rev has the necessary tools to set up, but in practice the turns it takes to set up enough can prove to be an momentum suck when facing even mildly offensive teams. It does have access to some handy, usually unseen coverage moves like Earthquake, hence the CB set, but then it loses out on it's reliable recovery and increased bulk. Rev is kinda torn between two mediocre options; a set upper that takes too long to set up and a choice bander that is too slow and misses its defensive boosts.
Sylveon:
I think Sylveon should be bumped to B. It threatens all of Tomohawk, Colossoil, Cyclohm, Aurumoth, Syclant, Stratagem, and Keldeo rather effectively, probably moreso than Clefable does (minus Auru/Syclant after they set up, but Sylveon doesn't really give them the opportunity to do so if in first). It is differentiated from Clefable in the ability to switch into more special hits and in the ability to OHKO or 2HKO a wider variety than Clefable.

0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (practically always OHKO after rocks)
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 366-432 (87.3 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (practically always OHKO after rocks)

0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 176 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 192-228 (47.1 - 56%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
(yeah colo EVs are weirder now, but it's not like everything is max speed, and sylveon still 2HKOes reliably whereas clef does not, even assuming no sp def evs on colo: 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 170-204 (41.7 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO)

0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 165-195 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 163-193 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 118-141 (36.9 - 44.2%)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 118-139 (30.8 - 36.3%) -- 60.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 300-354 (76.7 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I recognize that Thunder Wave makes Clefable hard to switch into, and it is generally more reliable at cleric roles thanks to its defensive abilities. The number of instances in which cleric Sylveon outperforms Clefable in unique situations is still very large (not a majority, but a number that is not able to be ignored in the CAP metagame), as the calcs could go on and on. Few things like switching into Thunder wave. Few things (though more things) like switching into Hyper Voice. And Hyper Voice's ability to discourage switches only gets more prominent on offensive sets ,in which Clefable is outclassed.

I also want to bring up two more things. The first is Sylveon's ability to pressure through a substitute. It is very hard to ignore the presence of substitute, and very few things that use it actually resist Fairy. Significantly, Tomohawk and (mega) Gyarados stand out in this respect.

Sylveon has range. Maybe not as great of range as Clefable, but a range that lets it not be outclassed across the board. Sylveon's Calm Mind set is more specially bulky and more immediately threatening than Clefable's, and it's ability to run a specs set is also underrepresented but still quite threatening. Being able to slow pass vs fast pass Tomohawk is also a great way to destroy the momentum of one of the best momentum-controlling mons in the tier.


C Rank


D Rank


Hoopa: Why is this ranked at all?
 
I think that the bulk issues you raise up with a lot of frail mons kinda ignores the fact that the bulk isn't as important for the teams they're actually used on. Starmie, for example, has no competition for its ability to be a blazing fast, hard hitting attacker that can also spin. It's a hyper-offense exclusive Pokemon, and on hyper offense, it does excellently, and can often spin once or twice a game (Which is all HO needs). Syclant as well, tends to put in so much work with power and coverage and pivoting all in one slot, it's excellent role compression for offense.

Some other points I really am confused by:

Omastar w/ Shell Smash is also pretty rain exclusive, because outside of rain it still sucks major ass without Swift Swim giving it immediate threat and the lack of power boost that makes Hydro Pump one of the hardest hitting moves in the entire tier. There's not really any Pokemon that uses shell smash well, though if I was stubborn about using it, I'd use Omastar... though only in rain.

Alomomola is so much better than you give it credit for. It's the best wish passer in the game, even above Chansey, and it's so incredible on stall and semi-stall. It's leagues above Cloyster, Voodoom, and Mega Banette. C I can get behind, since it's not a stall staple like Quagsire or Chansey, but D is seriously underselling its capabilities.

I agree with revenankh though Pursuit + jirachi + rev is a good core.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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Omastar w/ Shell Smash is also pretty rain exclusive, because outside of rain it still sucks major ass without Swift Swim giving it immediate threat and the lack of power boost that makes Hydro Pump one of the hardest hitting moves in the entire tier. There's not really any Pokemon that uses shell smash well, though if I was stubborn about using it, I'd use Omastar... though only in rain.
I agree with this completely. However, I think the difference is that after rain ends, a set up Omastar has a stronger presence than a set-up Kabutops. Both rely on rain though, yes. Honestly though, I wouldn't mind if both of them dropped.

I think that the bulk issues you raise up with a lot of frail mons kinda ignores the fact that the bulk isn't as important for the teams they're actually used on. Starmie, for example, has no competition for its ability to be a blazing fast, hard hitting attacker that can also spin. It's a hyper-offense exclusive Pokemon, and on hyper offense, it does excellently, and can often spin once or twice a game (Which is all HO needs). Syclant as well, tends to put in so much work with power and coverage and pivoting all in one slot, it's excellent role compression for offense.
The problem is even HO needs to deal with priority, something that Syclant in particular struggles with. Syclant is great, not denying that. But I think listing "power and coverage" as separate things that add to role compression is a bit redundant, since they are fairly related. It's certainly got power and pivot tho. Starmie similarly is weak to Sucker Punch. Spinning once a game can be enough for HO, but the act of spinning puts Starmie's own life at risk and opens it up to serious damage that it's poor defensive typing often can't handle. Personally on highly offensiveteams, I use Fidget as a speedy spinner instead simply because of how much extra it can offer... No it's not an offensive spinner, but it supports the team and makes it so much more threatening, while Starmie's support is comparatively one dimensional. Once again, not saying that having a true offensive spinner isn't bad, but Starmie's one-and-done isn't deserving of A- IMO.

EDIT: I could honestly get behind C for Alo too. I think C- would be the most fair, but rip, we only got Cs now.
 
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snake

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Kitsunoh, while not the best threat, is really great at checking Mega Medicham and Offensive Tomohawk (lacking Earth Power). Heck, if it gets lucky with Shadow Strike's defense drop, it can take down certain defensive threats that normally should be able to take out, which can get very frustrating towards the end of a battle. Defensive Tomo has more problems in that it can't reliably stall off Kit's Shadow Strike PP unless it runs Haze.

I think it's deserving of B, though I think Choice sets are the way to go with Kit, not Defog.
 

Drapionswing

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I am very much against Cawmodore to S for exactly the same reasons why we've shot that nomination down in the past. There's no doubt its a beast of a mon that can sweep entire teams, but the fact of the matter is that Cawmodore needs an entire team built around it to be effective at all due to the inclusion of its checks and counters on the majority of CAP teams. The same can be said about other set up sweepers in A+ such as Mega Scizor and Mega Charizhard X, both of which are more versatile than Cawmodore and actually have more chances for setup due to the one-and-done nature of Cawmodore.
I do agree that Zard X and Scizor have better setup opportunities and are less reliant on team support, however I think cawmodore hits the criteria of S rank very well. "The best of the best. Reserved for Pokemon who shape and define the CAP metagame and are a clear-cut above the rest. These Pokemon are typically very powerful offensive threats that are difficult to prepare for."

It's undeniable that Cawmodore has one of, if not the biggest effects on teambuilding. Checking cawmodore isn't very simple and you don't just slap on a Cawmodore check and say done. To reliably check Cawmodore you have to normally dedicate a fair bit of your teams resources to checking it as it's such a powerful pokemon once it sets up, because of this it's more common to go out of your way and start putting checks on your team for Cawmodore rather than for Mega sciz and Zard X. Not only this, I think checking Zard X and Mega Scizor are so much more easier than checking Cawmodore. Another thing about Cawmodore is using some of it's checks normally guarantee a kill for the Cawmodore user as most of it's checks are 2hko'd with the slightest amount of prior damage which is normally easily achieved with the omnipresent Stealth Rocks. An example of this is I can keep forcing out your Cyclohm by using my Colossoil making you lose momentum and get weakened so it's either you keep switching or I set up and kill something that game and you send in your Cyclohm after the kill to kill me. Not sure if I explained what I wanted to well but lol.

If I did, I think Cawmodore is more than eligible for S Rank.
Weavile B+ -> A-
Great speed and offensive stats on top of a great offensive typing in CAP. Its an offensive ice type with access to Pursuit to remove annoying mons such as Jirachi. Also threats Tornadus-T well and love Landorus-T and Garchomp becoming popular.
I think Weavile should be A rank over A- rank.

Although I'm not too fussed about this, Weaviles typing and speed is actually amazing. It threatens so much stuff in the cap metagame, and can actually be rather hard to switch into. It's power is nothing to scoff at. It actually pressures a fair bit of popular hazards removers in CAP, namely Colossoil, Tomohawk, Kitsunoh, Latios and Starmie. Pursuit trapping 3 of the 5 I mentioned if they decide to remove hazards on your switch. It also has the power of pressuring common rockers such as the aforementioned Lando-T and Garchomp, as well as stuff like Gliscor and Fidgit. In pressuring rockers and hazard removers in the way it does, it normally gives the user a lot of momentum. It's problem however is it's rivaled as a pursuit trapper by Colossoil as it has the much wanted bulk, despite this Weavile has many niches over it, as mentioned above.
 

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