General Dubs Meta Discussion II

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Weather is only 5 turns now, period. How is this going to change things?

Pocket EDIT: The metagame discussion is for BW Doubles. Talk about XY Doubles in the Speculation Thread.
 
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Well for the sake of concluding BW Doubles with some legitimate discussion, I'll just present an incredibly standard Semi-Trick Room team I've been using:


Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 96 HP / 80 SDef / 80 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Mach Punch
- Detect

Like a large number a VGC players, I have been lured into using Conkeldurr. It hits hard, provides priority, and works wonders under Trick Room conditions (which was what I had planned to build around when I started making this team). Drain Punch over Hammer Arm is a very questionable choice; I opted for Drain Punch because it could still OHKO TTar through its Chople Berry and in the 6-6 format I thought some extra longevity would be much appreciated. Hammer Arm is certainly a great option though, packing an incredibly heavy load of power in exchange for no way to recover Life Orb recoil and a 10% miss rate. The spread allows Conkeldurr to survive an unboosted Zen Headbutt off of Metagross after taking one round of Life Orb recoil.


Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 72 SDef / 172 SAtk / 12 Def
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam
- Sunny Day
- Trick Room

Obviously Cresselia's main role for the team is to support Conkeldurr and Heatran via Sunny Day and Trick Room support. It also holds rain at bay fairly easily, something Landorus-T and Heatran most certainly appreciate. The spread is a Lv 100 version of a fairly typical VGC spread. The EVs allow Ice Beam to OHKO Landorus-T, assuming it has no Yache Berry or Sash. 12 Def EVs allow it to always survive a Dark Gem-boosted Crunch off of Tyranitar and the remaining EVs go into Special Defense for as much special bulk as possible.


Landorus-Therian (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Protect

This is a standard Focus Sash Landorus-T and one of two members of my "speedy" section of the team. There isn't much to add, but I will note that I originally ran Rock Slide over Stone Edge (I did this for a long time). The idea first presented itself after I saw Stone Edge Lando being used in several VGC battles. While I was heavily reluctant at first due to the shaky accuracy, I eventually chose to use it because it can accomplish a lot of things Rock Slide never would, notably OHKOing standard Thundurus (and Tornadus) sets.


Heatran @ Fire Gem
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 17 Spd
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- Heat Wave
- Protect

Eruption Heatran was something I had never used myself and I figured when building this team that it was time to change this. I went with a very simple spread, so there isn't much to explain here. I decided on Earth Power over Hidden Power Grass because Sunny Day from Cresselia (and Rotom) already held back bulky Water-types a lot and my extra IVs (which are there so Sunny Day goes up before Eruption in Trick Room conditions) allow me to out-speed opposing Eruption Heatran outside of Trick Room, so I figured I might as well take advantage of that. I do find myself missing Hidden Power Grass a lot, since Rotom-W can be a very hard threat for this team to work around.


Rotom-Wash @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 24 SAtk / 248 HP / 156 SDef / 80 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest

This is probably the set I have changed around the most. I originally decided to try Specs Rotom-W, but later decided I needed more support and went for defensive Rotom-W. However, I had been switching around between a lot of different defensive sets. I eventually settled on a ChestoRest Rotom-W with a build closely identical to Brendan's Worlds Rotom, but I do find myself missing the last slot for Light Screen fairly often, which leads to me switching between it and Sitrus Berry Rotom every-so-often.


Tornadus (M) @ Flying Gem
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Superpower
- Taunt
- Protect

Probably the only member of the team that you wouldn't completely expect to be here. While I have become very fond of Tornadus (ever since it helped win me the Doubles Dash) and use it on 50% of my teams, I noticed I had never used a Landorus-T + Tornadus core on any of my teams. Since I wanted to give it a try, I decided to add those two as my "speedy" section of the team, which operates outside of Trick Room in the event that my opponent has Pokemon that are troublesome for my team, such as Amoonguss or Thundurus. Everything else is more or less standard; I opted for Taunt mostly because both Tailwind and U-turn were fairly redundant with the team, but it also was useful for shutting down Follow Me Togekiss and Thundurus shenanigans, among other things.


One other thing I've noticed in the last few weeks is a rising popularity of Hail. It has a load of new abusers of Blizzard in SmogDubs (Kyurem, Kyurem-B, Genesect, Darkrai, you get the picture, etc) and is fairly easy to use, whilst hitting common threats like Thundurus and Latios for heavy damage (usually OHKOs). I'm very interested to see how Hail will operate in the upcoming metagame.
 
One thing I would like to discuss is blaziken. In my testing of it, it was honestly quite good, despite being frail and stuff, and a total nuke in the sun. Thoughts?
P.S the team is below, ik it sucks kinda, but it was a 5 min team and i liked it sooo
Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
Ninetales @ Fire Gem
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Protect
- Hypnosis
- SolarBeam
Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- Protect
- Giga Drain
Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Wide Guard
- Close Combat
- Feint
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 SAtk
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 136 Atk / 252 SAtk / 120 Spd
Rash Nature
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Explosion

I'd like to see people's thoughts of blaziken in the new x/y metagame as well.
 
It's not going to be that great cause weather is nerfed and that was pretty much Blaziken's niche in the meta game.
 
I feel that Doubles need Item clause on help develop it into a more well rounded meta. Doubles is always going to be more offensive oriented which I understand but the fact that you can run choice items or focus sash on everything makes hyper offensive so much easier to execute with little risk. The counter to hyper offensive aren't all that great either: Hazards use a turn in which your pokemon is vulnerable to take free damage, Trick Room is a complete strat that has to be committed too and not just thrown into the mix and Weather isn't as reliable from the next gen.
 
From what I can recall, we're going to start out with the same clauses as we have right now, and suspect test them after the new metagame stabilizes. Adding an Item Clause will certainly be an option to add on, though I don't quite see how Item Clause is all that important (especially since MegaEvos won't be able to hold items, anyways).
 
I feel that Doubles need Item clause on help develop it into a more well rounded meta.
That already exists, it's called VGC. And guess what, it's just as fast-paced as doubles.

Doubles is always going to be more offensive oriented which I understand but the fact that you can run choice items or focus sash on everything makes hyper offensive so much easier to execute with little risk.
Choice items, particularly Band and Specs, are actually pretty rare. Focus Sashes are broken by Fake Out, sand, hail and double-targeting. And what's this about risk - hyper-offense is the most risky playstyle, one mistake and you often lose a full Pokemon which often costs the game.

The counter to hyper offensive aren't all that great either: Hazards use a turn in which your pokemon is vulnerable to take free damage, Trick Room is a complete strat that has to be committed too and not just thrown into the mix and Weather isn't as reliable from the next gen.
Hazards suck in doubles, but they actually help hyper-offense (at least in singles, where they are actually used enough for me to comment) by turning 3HKOs into 2HKOs and 2HKOs into OHKOs. You think Froslass was banned from UU because her ability to lay Spikes caused stall to run amok? Trick Room is not a strategy that has to be committed to, it's a really versatile move that is a great fall-back for whenever you're losing the speed control war - use it and you're instantly winning the war as much as you were losing it before. And as for weather, i reckon it will retain its viability because five to eight turns is half the length of a doubles battle, and besides, do you know quite how many hyper-offense teams there were in gen V based on rain? You know, Politoed / Kingdra / Thundurus cores everywhere? How many Pokemon got a defensive buff from rain? Ferrothorn, Toxicroak (which is still an attacking Pokemon), and that's it really.

Sorry if I have been a little harsh, I don't agree that hyper-offense is dominant (bulky offense / balance is really the best at the moment for its adaptability and the fact it rarely loses at the team preview screen). And if it were why would item clause be the solution? Apply it to singles, every defensive Pokemon runs lefties so item clause would hurt stall way more. (And I'm applying it to singles because stall is non-existent in doubles outside of Aasgier's incredibly annoying rain stall team. That's part of why bulky offense is so good by the way; bulky offense struggles with stall but stall doesn't exist).
 
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That already exists, it's called VGC. And guess what, it's just as fast-paced as doubles.
This isn't really very useful. :(

To be fair, there is a lot more to VGC than Item Clause though.



Choice items, particularly Band and Scarf, are actually pretty rare. Focus Sashes are broken by Fake Out, sand, hail and double-targeting. And what's this about risk - hyper-offense is the most risky playstyle, one mistake and you often lose a full Pokemon which often costs the game.
This I back 100%.

Sorry if I have been a little harsh, I don't agree that hyper-offense is dominant (bulky offense / balance is really the best at the moment for its adaptability and the fact it rarely loses at the team preview screen). And if it were why would item clause be the solution? Apply it to singles, every defensive Pokemon runs lefties so item clause would hurt stall way more. (And I'm applying it to singles because stall is non-existent in doubles outside of Aasgier's incredibly annoying rain stall team. That's part of why bulky offense is so good by the way; bulky offense struggles with stall but stall doesn't exist).
Just to add onto this:
-252+ Atk Steel Gem Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 324-384 (82.86 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 240-284 (61.38 - 72.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Due to the lack of items, a lot of Mega Evolutions actually can't hit as hard as their non-Mega counterparts. Imo, the fact they also sport higher bulk will turn the metagame into "bulky offense" stylistically. I don't see Hyper Offense becoming a thing at all. Of course, I do think some Mega Evolutions might end up banned (*cough* Mega Heracross, Mega Gengar, possibly Mega Kangashkan), but we'll just have to wait and see.

-EDIT-
Oh, and for more on this, feel free to look at the Gen 6 Doubles Speculation thread.
 
why did we turn the sleep clause on and the item clause off? I understand the default level change. Why did we turn on the soul dew clause Latios is OP in the hands of a good doubles player as well as latias. Why don't we practice the VGC ruleset?
 

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why did we turn the sleep clause on and the item clause off? I understand the default level change. Why did we turn on the soul dew clause Latios is OP in the hands of a good doubles player as well as latias. Why don't we practice the VGC ruleset?
Those rulesets are more in line with Smogon's philosophies. The goal of this tier was to cultivate a doubles community on smogon, so they opted to use their pwn rules as opposed to vgc rules. Also, Latios isn't overpowered, only good. It's not a broken threat though. However, with Soul Dew Latios and Latias become much more powerful hence why the item was banned
 
Those rulesets are more in line with Smogon's philosophies. The goal of this tier was to cultivate a doubles community on smogon, so they opted to use their pwn rules as opposed to vgc rules. Also, Latios isn't overpowered, only good. It's not a broken threat though. However, with Soul Dew Latios and Latias become much more powerful hence why the item was banned
Now I completely agree. Is there a way to learn about gen 6 or just good ways to generally play doubles. I am good at theory, but once it gets to actual practice I need help. In 2013 VGC I just took EV spreads from Wolfe, Ray, Koreans, R Inaminate, Cybertron, and several other VGC players to make a team but I wanna learn to develop ideas and use them well in practice.
 

Audiosurfer

I'd rather be sleeping
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Now I completely agree. Is there a way to learn about gen 6 or just good ways to generally play doubles. I am good at theory, but once it gets to actual practice I need help. In 2013 VGC I just took EV spreads from Wolfe, Ray, Koreans, R Inaminate, Cybertron, and several other VGC players to make a team but I wanna learn to develop ideas and use them well in practice.
There are plenty of different resources that can help you learn onsite, such as threads in this forum and the uncharted territory one as well as some smog articles (just so you know btw, this is gen 5. Uncharted territory is where the gen 6 discussion takes place) The best way to learn would probably be to come on #doubles so you can discuss with top players who will be more than happy to help you learn. plus they're better practice than the ladder.
 

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