General Dubs Meta Discussion II

Though a rare move, Quick Guard can protect both you and your ally from priority attacks for one turn.
So when Prankster affects a move, it officially counts as priority, and Quick Guard can block it?

EDIT: This doesn't seem to be the case, unless I missed something.
 
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I'd like to bring some discussion into the different common items in Doubles. Some things that might be worth talking about are...
  • Choice items
  • Resistance berries
  • Sashes
  • Gems
  • Iron ball?
  • White Herb lol
I'll follow up anyone who posts.
 
Resistance berries and Gems are the most common items, since they accommodate the fast-paced nature of Doubles. Then Lum Berry and Sitrus Berry are useful for immediate healing from status and damage, though Lum Berry seems to be pretty rare. Honestly though, Lum Berry makes for an efficient item choice with Swagger, Spore, and Thunder Wave on the loose. I'd say next after those in line are Sashes and Life Orb, which tend to give frail pokemon some legitimate bulk (Sash) or can consistently provide power turn after turn, which in some cases is useful (LO). Then Choice items, mostly Scarf but sometimes Band or Specs come next. Everything else is pretty rare, though some items that see more use than their extremely rare counterparts include Expert Belt, Leftovers/Black Sludge, Mental Herb (for Trick Room mostly, I use it on Sableye to block faster Taunts occasionally), and then Chesto Berry (mostly for Rest, since you often don't like a surprising paralyze or burn activating your berry right before you use Rest).

That's about all I can think of. :s
 

Laga

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list of items after what I think people use the most.

- Resistance berries
- Gems
- Sitrus Berry
- Life Orb
- Lum Berry
- Choice items
- anything else.

going to write something bout em later
 
Leftovers are very rare in Doubles, and only really work on very bulky mons that are supposed to stay alive for 5-6 turns or even longer. Some of my matches - I use stall, as you guys know - are just there with two members of either Ferrothorn, Jellicent and Jirachi just sitting there walling everything my opponent throws at them, staying alive for 10-20 turns or even longer (I sometimes even had Ferrothorn in the match from the beginning till the very end, without switching, just sitting there for a looooong while, sometimes even being the only thing staying alive), and Cresselia is in a similar vein in the fact that it often stays alive for a very long while.

But Leftovers work, just make sure you only use them on mons that can tank hits for decades and have numerous resistances to boot. I do believe Leftovers are the best possible item on any defensive Ferrothorn, though.
 
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Punchshroom

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Occa Berry or Chople Berry are obvious alternatives, though they work better on more offensive variants of Ferrothorn...not that Ferro is doing that much in Doubles anyway. I cannot for the life of me figure out what people want with Forretress (needless to say, every match I had that involved a Forretress resulted in their loss, because they are facing me 6-5). Toxic Spikes are the only thing Forry has that raises any eyebrows, and even then there are setters that don't sit there and do nothing, like Tentacruel or Roserade or Scolipede or something.
 
Yes, Forretress sucks in Doubles. Rapid spin? Hazards outside of Toxic Spikes are nonexistant and even Toxic Spikes themselves are nonexistant. It is annoying because it can't be Seeded, but it isn't going to do much indeed.

Ferrothorn's biggest boons are staying alive for ages, walling stuff while also draining their health through Leech Seed, Thunder Wave slows annoying bastards and Power Whip can remove Gastrodon and friends. It is a very solid defensive backbone for a team to fall back upon.
 
Actually, Leftovers are a pretty good item on Substitute users. With Leftovers, you can just make a lot more Substitutes, while you wait for a good time to strike. I'm thinking particularly of Heatran here, since it had good resistances and a sand immunity. Various Pokemon with Prankster & Substitute also make good users. I came up against a Substitute Sableye with Lefties recently on the ladder and it took me apart.
 
I'd like to add that Leftovers is only worthwhile if you have 6 turns spent with less than max HP. Turns spent at max HP do not count as turns spent healing and so I will run Sitrus Berry on things even if they last a very long time.
Some good scenarios for Leftovers are incredibly bulky mons that you need to last most of the match, anything with substitute, and anything that wants to mitigate hail and sand damage.
Finally, your playstyle can dictate whether you should use Sitrus or Leftovers. The more switch ins to resisted match ups you do, the more Leftovers is going to benefit. Also, the more Intimidate/Snarl/Screens or Protect spamming the more you'll want Leftovers as well.

Example: Hitmontop very well could last several turns due to Fake Out, Wide Guard and Sucker Punch. But those 6 turns ideally are done mostly from max HP unless you run sand/hail or switched in on something. Most people will get more out of Sitrus there, but a lot of people that really want late-game Top support and switch him in a lot should opt for Lefties.
Conversely, Togekiss is a mon that is constantly tanking hits that it can handle comfortably. As long as you don't need hefty early-game support(running DeoA or boosting sweeper), Togekiss will likely spend most of the game recovering HP with Lefties. If you really need it to tank double target Ice Beam/Thunderbolt from max HP though, Sitrus is there.

Your playstyle has an underrated effect on item choice. Just because I would prefer Sitrus Berry on Amoonguss, doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't use RagePowder more conservatively and get more benefit from Leftovers. After I Spore, I spam the shit out of the RagePowder button until it dies tbh because I usually only run Amoonguss alongside frail stuff.
 
Actually, Leftovers are a pretty good item on Substitute users. With Leftovers, you can just make a lot more Substitutes, while you wait for a good time to strike. I'm thinking particularly of Heatran here, since it had good resistances and a sand immunity. Various Pokemon with Prankster & Substitute also make good users. I came up against a Substitute Sableye with Lefties recently on the ladder and it took me apart.
I like Leftovers on this like SubTran/Chomp and Cresselia myself.
Yeah these sorts of things are what I had in mind when I mentioned Leftovers.
 
I love using Focus Sash. I've started matches a few times with Hitmontop/Sableye and a Sash user (works better with Sableye). I like to sash my Breloom for a guaranteed Spore while it's partner Fake outs the opposition. Of course, it's about recognizing the situation, but an early game spore can really put the pressure early game.

Afterwards, Gems are the next best thing for me since trying to score OHKOs or close to them is a goal of mine from the start. Dragon Gem Draco Meteors from Latios or sun-boosted Fire Gem Overheats from Ninetales can OHKO a lot of Pokes if they're not resisting those hits.
 
I think LO is one underrated item since it always is second slashed in sets.
For example, I usually advocate LO Modest on Hydreigon. With a HH boost, it is one of few mons that can OHKO multiple super bulky TR setters in a single game. Also, itemless Draco Meteor just doesn't have enough umph to OHKO moderately bulky threats that LO can.
I just find it odd that even something like Terrakion with great dual STABs wouldn't prefer BOTH STABs boosted? I can see it in VGC where you only have 4 mons and OHKOs are the best thing ever, but doubles seems a little too long to go most of the match itemless.

I like the gems(Water Gem Muddy Water and Fight Gem Top are two of my favs), but I think LO needs more love lol. It's a good item.
 
I just find it odd that even something like Terrakion with great dual STABs wouldn't prefer BOTH STABs boosted? I can see it in VGC where you only have 4 mons and OHKOs are the best thing ever, but doubles seems a little too long to go most of the match itemless.
It actually runs Focus Sash most of the time, since it lets it live a potentially fatal attack with it and is immune to sand damage. Other than that, I usually run Life Orb, so I'm not quite sure where you are coming from with this (Fighting Gem I assume?).
 
It actually runs Focus Sash most of the time, since it lets it live a potentially fatal attack with it and is immune to sand damage. Other than that, I usually run Life Orb, so I'm not quite sure where you are coming from with this (Fighting Gem I assume?).
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/terrakion/doubles

Just going by the main standard set(Rock/Fight Gem, but I guess that's just bc sub) and what I see in battles. Sash is pretty good on it, but I wasn't neccessarily singling out just Terrakion. Just an example. Sorry if it was bad haha
 
I honestly love gems and spread moves, it really nets those extra kills that can change a game. I used a ground gem excadrill that actually worked pretty as well as the electric gem discharge rotom-w. Also, I am totally going to run bug gem heracross under tailwind just to nuke a cress.
The problem with sashes are how common sandstorm and hail is. The question is if its worth sashing something like a whimsicott or things that aren't immune to weather.
 
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/terrakion/doubles

Just going by the main standard set(Rock/Fight Gem, but I guess that's just bc sub) and what I see in battles. Sash is pretty good on it, but I wasn't neccessarily singling out just Terrakion. Just an example. Sorry if it was bad haha
Well I was basing my post off of VGC Terrakion (what I've seen), if the Gems are popular in SmogDubs I guess the point stands (for the Sash that is).
 
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So I've been thinking a lot about Smogon doubles, and I've been trying to recognize what is "top tier" in this metagame. I've been ranking up the ladder in the 1900s now, and I still can't distinguish which team/style/mons are the go to team. I know there's a lot of variety, but surely a few things stand out among the rest. I have been using a sun/antimeta style of team to catch people off guard. However, there is so much variety out there that I can't figure it out lol.

I've seen a lot of rain, and after that a few trickroom teams. Is there any particular team that's strong? Are there any guaranteed cores that work effectively more than others. For example, when Lando was OU in Smogon singles, everyone and their mother abused Lando/Tyranitar/Keldeo core.

These are just random thoughts that cross my mind about this meta, and I hope this provokes some discussion to further the new Smogon Doubles metagame. I feel it is still in it's infancy, and I want it to grow like I hope a lot of others do.
 

Laga

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We have a Viability Ranking Thread with rankings of Pokemon + write-ups to show what stands out among the rest and why.

Now let's talk about cores. There are many interesting cores; you can be very creative with both offensive and defensive synergy.

Rule number one is to be creative with cores. For example, I tried a Lightningrod Rhyperior + Choice Band Gyarados in Sandstorm Trick Room the other day because I am stupid, and it actually worked out kinda ok-ish considering how shitty it sounds. Great standout cores are as follows

The following are cores with a supportive mon and a sweeper(ish)

Heatran + Cresselia. Sunny Day and Icy Wind from Cress help Heatran so much.
Hitmontop + QD Volcarona. Wide Guard + Fake Out is honestly all Volc needs to sweep non-Rain teams.
Togekiss + Garchomp. Follow Me support, Tailwind / T-Wave support, potentially Helping Hand support, and immunity to EQ. Garchomp might as well propose to Togekiss.

The following cores have cool defensive / offensive synergy.

Mamoswine + Zapdos. A classic "DisQuake" core. Basically, you spam Earthquake and Discharge and hope to god that the opposition doesn't have Wide Guard. Zapdos resists Fighting and Grass, which Mamo is weak to. Mamoswine resists Ice, which Zapdos is weak to. Offensively, Ground + Electric is only resisted by some Grass- or Ground-types, which get popped by Ice-type moves from Mamo.

Hitmontop + Thundurus. Say hello to your (or your opponents if you are using this core) living hell. Though they may not have the greatest typing synergy, the way they support each other at cutting off almost all opposing strategies is beautiful. Fake Out + Thunder Wave / Taunt on turn one makes it easy to cripple a couple of Pokemon; get a headstart you could say. From then on it's all about spamming Gem CC against paralyzed opponents (top is slow as balls), and paralyze the Pokemon that are not paralysed. Elegant goodstuffs core.

Fuck it I don't feel like thinking of more, but there are plenty. The point is, it's quite easy to find mons that work well together, and most Pokemon will work well together unless running a spread move that hits yourself (example: Follow Me Jirachi + Earthquake Excadrill. Or if you are running monotype lol.

Hope I helped a bit :)
 
I think the most successful teams contain numerous cores within themselves. For example, lately I've been running a team of Cress/Zapdos/Lando/Tyranitar/Breloom/Gastrodon. To point out a few really nice cores on this team:

Cress + TTar: Cress and Tyranitar actually work pretty well together. Cress provides Icy Wind and Helping Hand support while in turn smashing fighting types with Psychic/Psyshock. TTar hits ghosts hard and can Taunt things that are trouble for Cress. They also have decent defense synergy.

Zapdos + Lando: Classing DisQuake core. Zap also provides Tailwind support. Weak to Blizzspam but it's easy to force offensive pressure with these guys and force switches to get Tailwind opportunities.

Zapdos + Gastrodon: Fantastic raincheck core. Discharge. Storm Drain. You know the drill.

Lando + Breloom: Again, Blizzspam weak, but this core has the luxury of Fighting Gem Mach Punch to smash ice-types. Lando hits flying, ice, and fire types with Rock Slide, Breloom hits ice types with Mach Punch and water types with Bullet Seed.

Really, there's a ton of cores you can use on teams. A lot of times I build a team without much thought and realize two Pokémon function as a good core.
 

Laga

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TTar hits ghosts hard and can Taunt things that are trouble for Cress.
Tyranitar is, according to most people in the Doubles community, a slow sack of shit. I see no reason why you would ever use Taunt on something that is outsped by pretty much everything it is trying to Taunt. Coverage is also usually preferred.

Other than that, this post is very great as an example of multiple cores in a team. I kind of thought the whole "successful teams contain numerous cores" was pretty self-explanatory and obvious, even if one is transitioning from Singles, but it was nice you pointed it out, since it is very true :)
 
Tyranitar is, according to most people in the Doubles community, a slow sack of shit. I see no reason why you would ever use Taunt on something that is outsped by pretty much everything it is trying to Taunt. Coverage is also usually preferred.

Other than that, this post is very great as an example of multiple cores in a team. I kind of thought the whole "successful teams contain numerous cores" was pretty self-explanatory and obvious, even if one is transitioning from Singles, but it was nice you pointed it out, since it is very true :)
Taunt is only a test on my part, admittedly, but it does fuck up with Trick Room quite a bit and I have found use for it. An unexpected Taunt on a Cress of Amoonguss can really turn the game in your favor, I've found, but will agree that TTar is slow as balls and it's pretty situational.

I only made a post such as that because a new player in terms of comp Pokemon in general could read this thread, so I thought it was good to point out. :)
 

Arcticblast

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Tyranitar's Speed is probably the most annoying thing about it. 61 is in an awkward position in Doubles - it can outspeed some things, but if it wants to do so it loses the ability to be particularly effective in Trick Room. My personal Tyranitar runs enough Speed to outrun uninvested Heatran, but when I do that I struggle more against Politoed, especially in Trick Room, since I can't really get my weather up for Excadrill as easily. On the other hand, Tyranitar can easily be manipulated to combat Trick Room, but outside of battles against TR teams it's a slow sack of shit.

Fuck Tyranitar, seriously.
 

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