Denied Leadoff Hitter

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Birkal

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This concept by wh0sy0urpapa was approved for discussion. Is this concept worth pursuing? If so, what questions could we ask? How could we improve this? Everyone is free to discuss the following submission as if this was a concept discussion.

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Name: Leadoff Hitter

Description: A Pokémon that functions very well as a lead in the Gen 6 OU metagame.

Justification: Your leadoff Pokémon has a main job, which is to give your team momentum in the very early game. However, in the current Team Preview era, dedicated leads are no longer a thing because you can see your opponent’s team before the battle, and thus can send in something that can force out an opposing lead. Leadoff Hitter would allow us to re-explore the concept of leads, and perhaps devise new strategies besides setting up hazards and dying.

Questions to be Answered:
  • Are dedicated leads viable at all with Team Preview?
  • How are your lead Pokémon most often used?
  • What Pokémon are most often used as leads in Gen 6 OU, and why?
    • In that vein, what Pokémon work as anti-leads in Gen 6 OU, and why?
    • How could we help this Pokémon deal with anti-leads, in that sense?
  • To what extent does Team Preview discourage the use of dedicated leads?
  • What new strategies could this Pokémon utilize in order to help your team gain the early advantage?
  • Can dedicated leads (i.e. Azelf, Klefki) function outside of the role of being a lead at all? Why or why not?
Explanation: If you’re a competitive battler, you know how important it is to gain momentum early on in the battle. If you start off on the wrong foot, then your momentum is killed off and you’ll likely lose the game. That said, having a dedicated lead on your team could prevent you from starting off poorly. And as for Team Preview, all you have to do is send in a Pokémon that counters what you think will be the opponent’s lead, thus preventing their lead from doing its job. It is important for both players to come out of the gate, and Leadoff Hitter would help us to explore what it takes to do so. Team Preview was such an integral part of the switch from Gen 4 to Gen 5, yet it still went unexplored throughout the entirety of BW(2), leaving viable lead strategies far and few. I can’t say that leads will become a thing again, but I can say that we can learn new methods of gaining early momentum, and in the process what we learn here can spread to OU in general.
 
The problem with having a dedicated lead is that the opponent will automatically recognize this and send in a check or counter.
Many suicide leads such as Mamoswine or Garchomp can fulfill other roles, and so the foe is less likely to be sure of what your lead is, meaning that it isn't shut down every time, because it's not super obvious what the lead is going to be. That the CAP has another, equally viable use, will be vital if the CAP is to be effective, otherwise it will literally just get shut down completely, because when you know what the foe is leading with and what that lead does, it's not very hard to counter it.
 

Qwilphish

when everything you touch turns to gold
Picking a lead is often hit-and-miss since its impossible to read your opponent from the get-go (unless you know their playstyle, and even then its not guaranteed). You can choose your obvious lead (Dedicated SR'er / Hazard Setter), you can choose a Pokemon which can beat your opponent's obvious lead, you can pick a Pokemon which can beat your opponent's response to your obvious lead, you can simply choose a Pokemon that will destroy any member of the opponent's team if such a weakness exists... and so on and so forth... There are many ways that the lead metagame can play out and thus trying to control this will be received with variable success.

Since every game begins with a mind game as to what Pokemon should be lead off with, it is nearly impossible to look for new ways in which "new strategies" can be used in the lead position as nearly every option has been explored through this generation alone (Sleep Lead- Breloom, Offensive Rocks- Terrakion/Garchomp, Defensive Rocks- Hippowdon/Ferrothorn, Pivot- Landorus-T/Rotom-W, Early MEvo- Manectric/Lopunny, Dedicated Lead- Infernape/Azelf). I think it's obvious that Dedicated Leads MUST be able to function outside of the lead position otherwise it is simply a waste of a team slot because of the variability due to Team Preview.

Reading the justification for this concept, it seems that this concept is more so about controlling momentum from the get-go rather than setting up hazards as the title suggests. However, I believe that the concept gives a lot more emphasis to the lead match-up than it actually has. Besides in the case of Hyper Offense (and even then, with smart play a comeback is possible), if you choose the wrong lead, it typically is not impossible to win. Which is the main reason why I see this as a relatively weak concept, because although it is an aspect that we see all the time, its true influence is not as big as, for example, gaining momentum mid-game and maintaining it through.
 

Empress

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As this is my concept, I'm obviously pretty excited to see it here.

While sending in a check or counter to an opposing lead is easy on paper, some dedicated leads have multiple viable sets. Like when the opponent sends out Landorus-T, it is often very difficult to tell if it's Scarfed or physically defensive, and if you guess wrong, there goes your early momentum. I was envisioning something versatile along those lines.

Qwilphish, I think you are right that we do know what a lead does at this point. In hindsight, trying to devise a new way to use a lead would be more trouble than it's worth. Nonetheless, I disagree with your belief that leads are not as important as the mid-game. You absolutely need early momentum, or else you'll be playing catch-up throughout the mid-game, as I have had to do on multiple occasions that I picked the wrong lead. Even so, your idea of simply maintaining early game momentum, whether or not this mon ends up being used as a lead, seems to be the best way to go for this concept. Let's see what everyone else thinks.
 

ginganinja

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I don't like it for a number of reasons. One of them is that most of the questions are already answerable from looking at the OU metagame.

Yes, they are "viable", as HO or BP teams sometimes elect to go for a Dual Screen user. In general though, most teams do not have a dedicated lead.

To get an advantage over your opponent. Usually this is via hazards, but it might be as simple as getting a favourable matchup turn 1 to dictate momento flow and tempo.

What Pokémon are most often used as leads in Gen 6 OU, and why?
Anything that gets a favourable matchup against your opponents team is a "good lead" so to speak, unless its like a late game sweeper in which case you prolly dont want to lead with it.

Anything. You just want to win the mind game as to what you think your opponent will lead, and then leading something that counters what you think they will play. No-one really has "anti leads" because the "lead metagame" doesn't exist.

You don't, because this CAP is meant to be a lead and people will simply counter it by leading with whatever counters it / has a good matchup.

  • To what extent does Team Preview discourage the use of dedicated leads?
To what extent? Extremely.

  • What new strategies could this Pokémon utilize in order to help your team gain the early advantage?
Nothing we haven't already seen before.

  • Can dedicated leads (i.e. Azelf, Klefki) function outside of the role of being a lead at all? Why or why not?
No because the term "dedicated lead" usually means that they are, oh I don't know...dedicated leads?

I have lots more reasons why I dislike this concept but I just wanted to answer all of your questions for you so I can discuss something else.
 

nyttyn

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Azelf and such already exist and fulfil this concept, but the unfortunate truth behind this concept is that it simply doesn't work in the CAP setting. We already have a problem with coutnerteaming in the playtests - if you know it's coming, a dedicated lead is literally the single easiest role to counter in pokemon. Especially thanks to team preview. Combined with the unpopularity of this concept, the points raised about it, and I'll have to throw in my rejection.


1/2 Declined
 
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Qwilphish

when everything you touch turns to gold
I've voiced my opinion on this concept earlier in the thread, since no other points have been made since nyttyn's initial rejection

2/2 Denied
 
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