Mareanie, Toxapex Discussion

Wouldn't get too overhyped about the bulk, that 50 Base HP is deceptively bad. Also, Tapu Lele can come in on it since it will rarely be using attacks and annihilate it with Psychic Terrain boosted STAB Psychics. It also has to watch out for the likes of SDChomp Earthquake. Psychic Terrain is going to make Psychic attacks a lot more common, and Ground get several moves that are threatening. For example, lets say Toxapex switches into a Toxic of a mon with Stomping Tantrum. Toxic will fail, meaning Stomping Tantrum will have 150 BP the next turn. Probably not the most common scenario, but it's there.
That's like saying Ferrothorn isn't viable because Heatran can kill it. You have 5 more team slots for a reason. Pair this thing up with Ferrothorn and your list of problems just got a hell of a lot shorter.

Stomping Tantrum is not going to be a relevant move. Its users are all garbage and likely are never going to face up against Toxapex anyways. The only user that might be even remotely relevant to OU is Guzzlord, who possesses an average Attack stat and better moves to use than Stomping Tantrum.
 
Also, Psychic terrain has hilariously bad distribution, it might not get overused as much as some people seem to be telling.
 

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Anything that dicks Azumarill and forces it to run mediocrity like Return gets a +1 in my book. Too bad it kind of dicks Gyarados too. <_< I guess thankfully Taunt and Substitute exist.

Even if for some reason it does not remain in OU I could see this mon returning for niche situations. Water / Poison is damn good defensive typing as shown in previous generations with Tentacruel and Qwilfish, and unlike both of them this thing gets Recover AND Regenerator. Merciless Venoshock doesn't sound half bad either with Toxic Spikes or simply running Toxic / Baneful Bunker.

As mentioned too typing-wise it has some pretty solid synergy with Ferrothorn. Aside from Ghost Anchor and Ghost / Fighting this mon is probably my favorite potential competitive-wise atm.
 
Merciless is so tempting but Regenerator makes it such a nasty pivot.

After thinking it through, Regenerator + Black Sludge with Baneful Bunker/Toxic Spikes/Recover/Scald may be the go-to set, although it will have to be careful it doesn't burn the wrong thing with Scald.

How much will a Specs Tapu Lele Psychic (boosted by Psychic terrain) do to this thing? 80%?
 
Merciless is so tempting but Regenerator makes it such a nasty pivot.

After thinking it through, Regenerator + Black Sludge with Baneful Bunker/Toxic Spikes/Recover/Scald may be the go-to set, although it will have to be careful it doesn't burn the wrong thing with Scald.

How much will a Specs Tapu Lele Psychic (boosted by Psychic terrain) do to this thing? 80%?
Mew's stats replaced with Tapu Lele's and Tentacruel's with Toxapex's.

+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 372-438 (120 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Mew Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 314-372 (101.2 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Guaranteed OHKO, whether it uses Psychic or Psyshock (I imagine the latter will be more common for breaking down dedicated special walls). It's interesting to note that with a Life Orb, Psyshock only has a 25% chance to OHKO Max/Max while Psychic still has a 100% chance to KO all variants, but that's not really relevant to be honest.
 
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 182-218 (59.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery


252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 210-248 (69 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

What's the point of these calcs anyways? He probably wont run this EV spread as we don't know for sure what it needs (kind of like Ferro who always has the same EV spread all the time) and you won't stay in against Latios anyway.
 
you won't stay in against Latios anyway.
Not necessarily, if you run Stockpile Latios won't be able to come in anymore since you can Stockpile on the switch and avoid being 2HKOd:

first hit: 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 125-148 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
second hit: 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 94-112 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

first hit: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 140-168 (46 - 55.2%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
second hit: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 104-126 (34.2 - 41.4%) -- 59.1% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
 
This pokemon is nothing special imo. Nothing more to me than an overhyped alomomola. Its not as bulky on the physical side, and marginally bulkier on the special side, while being equally as passive. Admittedly toxapex does have haze going for it, but this move will have to be a staple to stop toxapex from being a liability on teams by being set up fodder for everything in the tier. I think this mon will remain OU for the first month or so, before people realise that it cant actually beat any of the pokemon it is supposed to check without praying for scald burns.
 
This pokemon is nothing special imo. Nothing more to me than an overhyped alomomola. Its not as bulky on the physical side, and marginally bulkier on the special side, while being equally as passive. Admittedly toxapex does have haze going for it, but this move will have to be a staple to stop toxapex from being a liability on teams by being set up fodder for everything in the tier. I think this mon will remain OU for the first month or so, before people realise that it cant actually beat any of the pokemon it is supposed to check without praying for scald burns.
An "overhyped" alomomola you say, uh. Except that there is no "overhyping" a Pokémon that looks almost better, if not just a lot better, than Alomomola, who has recently become an amazing pivot in even the OU tier. Toxapex has 5 teammates and will not become settup fodder for much stuff with his amazing typing. There isnt a lot in the tier that can really setup on its face, beside the Ground types and MegaGard I guess, and none of them really want to switch in either taking a burn or just put on a timer with Toxic. This Pokémon is a PIVOT, he is not meant to stay in for long thanks to Regenerator and me settup on. Geez, it can even beat CM Clef 1 on 1 if it goes for merciless. I dont know if you red the full thread of, mind you, 6 pages, which shows you that people are actually discussing a Pokémon that really has a lot going for it, whatever what tier it ends up in. Those defenses, decent offensive presence thanks to Toxic and venoshock and scald, access to Goddamn Recover AND Regenerator, Toxic Spikes and that cool Poisoning protect is absolutely nothing to ignore.
 
An "overhyped" alomomola you say, uh. Except that there is no "overhyping" a Pokémon that looks almost better, if not just a lot better, than Alomomola, who has recently become an amazing pivot in even the OU tier. Toxapex has 5 teammates and will not become settup fodder for much stuff with his amazing typing. There isnt a lot in the tier that can really setup on its face, beside the Ground types and MegaGard I guess, and none of them really want to switch in either taking a burn or just put on a timer with Toxic. This Pokémon is a PIVOT, he is not meant to stay in for long thanks to Regenerator and me settup on. Geez, it can even beat CM Clef 1 on 1 if it goes for merciless. I dont know if you red the full thread of, mind you, 6 pages, which shows you that people are actually discussing a Pokémon that really has a lot going for it, whatever what tier it ends up in. Those defenses, decent offensive presence thanks to Toxic and venoshock and scald, access to Goddamn Recover AND Regenerator, Toxic Spikes and that cool Poisoning protect is absolutely nothing to ignore.
Pivot or not, it doesnt change the fact that this pokemon will not be able to beat the plethora of pokemon that it on paper is supposed to beat due to having no offensive presence. Good typing and bulk mean nothing if you lose to things you should be beating. Running a merciless set will be a gimmick at best, and when the hype around this mon dies down i am very sure that it will go the same way as alo and end up in the lower tiers. When I talk about this pokemon i'm specifically talking about the OU tier, which I should of probably mentioned too.
 
Toxapex is a weird lovechild of Tentacruel and Alomomola - having a few qualities of both, but not outclassing either, due to lacking some key elements (Wish passing, Rapid Spin, actually beating BD Azumarill, poisoning Steel and Poison types with Soak, Knock Off).


I'd use either Alomomola or Tentacruel instead of Toxapex, though - due to both having better role-compression in one slot.
 
I mean, Regenerator makes it an amazing pivot, Merciless actually makes it win 1v1. People are acting like only neanderthals would ever use a Merciless set. But when people talk about its strengths, they usually include things that only Merciless sets can do. My main worry, as I've expressed, is that it's hard to kill but doesn't threaten much of anything on its own. I have plenty of pivot walls who can take a hit and threaten 30-50% damage in return.
 
Pivot or not, it doesnt change the fact that this pokemon will not be able to beat the plethora of pokemon that it on paper is supposed to beat due to having no offensive presence. Good typing and bulk mean nothing if you lose to things you should be beating. Running a merciless set will be a gimmick at best, and when the hype around this mon dies down i am very sure that it will go the same way as alo and end up in the lower tiers. When I talk about this pokemon i'm specifically talking about the OU tier, which I should of probably mentioned too.
Toxapex is a weird lovechild of Tentacruel and Alomomola - having a few qualities of both, but not outclassing either, due to lacking some key elements (Wish passing, Rapid Spin, actually beating BD Azumarill, poisoning Steel and Poison types with Soak, Knock Off).


I'd use either Alomomola or Tentacruel instead of Toxapex, though - due to both having better role-compression in one slot.
I don't know if you've read the thread, but clearly, Toxapex's defensive stats, typing, ability and utility between Recover, Baneful Bunker and Haze outclass both Tentacruel's and Alomomola's. I've said it once and I'll say it again, you don't always need offensive presence against mons that can't touch you either. Sometimes, you just need to burn, PP stall or even poison stall your opponent to make a good job. Also, for the last time, I'm gonna write down what should be the optimal set (or, at last, close to being optimal) for Toxapex to deal with everything it needs to:

Toxapex @ Black Sludge / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Baneful Bunker / Toxic
- Haze
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Tentacruel: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 100-118 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Tentacruel: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 93-111 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- 57.6% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Black Sludge recovery (CB T-Tar 2HKOes it though)
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
136+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- approx. 96.3% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 122-146 (40.1 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery (Toxapex can then switch to a Dark-type mon and gain its HP back with Regenerator)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Tentacruel: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (Manaphy needs to run Psychic instead of Energy Ball, but leaves it helpless against any other bulky Water-types)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Tentacruel in Sun: 109-129 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery (pray it doesn't have Zen Headbutt, but that's what Baneful Bunker is for ;) )
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Tentacruel: 121-142 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 126-148 (41.4 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery (pray it doesn't have Earthquake though)
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 126-150 (41.4 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Tentacruel: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
If you compare all those calcs with Tentacruel and Alomomola, you'll see that Toxapex has better results (almost) all the time. I fail to see which other mon can compare to it by checking that many mons, stoping most of the setup sweepers, being immune to Toxic (fuck Salazzle though) and pivoting around like it's nobody's business. Also, Tentacruel and Alomomola can't do shit against BD Azumarill, so I don't know where you're coming at with this.

Oh and btw, you know what else is a Toxic-immune defensive pivot with "sucky" offensive presence and reliable recovery? Amoonguss. And afaik, that thing is pretty damn good.

Sorry if I come in pretty harsh, but people denying Toxapex's general utility and defensive capabilities just infuriates me. That will be my last post on this thread. Good day to you!
 
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My main worry, as I've expressed, is that it's hard to kill but doesn't threaten much of anything on its own.
Well it's able to toxic stall mons like Mega Charizard Y and most steel types like Mega Scizor don't like to risk getting burned either.
 
I don't know if you've read the thread, but clearly, Toxapex's defensive stats, typing, ability and utility between Recover, Baneful Bunker and Haze outclass both Tentacruel's and Alomomola's. I've said it once and I'll say it again, you don't always need offensive presence against mons that can't touch you either. Sometimes, you just need to burn, PP stall or even poison stall your opponent to make a good job. Also, for the last time, I'm gonna write down what should be the optimal set (or, at last, close to being optimal) for Toxapex to deal with everything it needs to:

Toxapex @ Black Sludge / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Baneful Bunker / Toxic
- Haze
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Tentacruel: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 100-118 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Tentacruel: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 93-111 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- 57.6% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Black Sludge recovery (CB T-Tar 2HKOes it though)
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
136+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- approx. 96.3% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 122-146 (40.1 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery (Toxapex can then switch to a Dark-type mon and gain its HP back with Regenerator)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Tentacruel: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (Manaphy needs to run Psychic instead of Energy Ball, but leaves it helpless against any other bulky Water-types)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Tentacruel in Sun: 109-129 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery (pray it doesn't have Zen Headbutt, but that's what Baneful Bunker is for ;) )
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Tentacruel: 121-142 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 126-148 (41.4 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery (pray it doesn't have Earthquake though)
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Tentacruel: 126-150 (41.4 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Tentacruel: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
If you compare all those calcs with Tentacruel and Alomomola, you'll see that Toxapex has better results (almost) all the time. I fail to see which other mon can compare to it by checking that many mons, stoping most of the setup sweepers, being immune to Toxic (fuck Salazzle though) and pivoting around like it's nobody's business. Also, Tentacruel and Alomomola can't do shit against BD Azumarill, so I don't know where you're coming at with this.

Oh and btw, you know what else is a Toxic-immune defensive pivot with "sucky" offensive presence and reliable recovery? Amoonguss. And afaik, that thing is pretty damn good.

Sorry if I come in pretty harsh, but people denying Toxapex's general utility and capabilities just infuriates me. That will be my last post on this thread. Good day to you!
The thing is with pretty much every single calc you provided, is that toxapex will lose 1v1 unless you pray for scald burns. Some people may not have an issue with doing this but personally, I want my checks to reliably beat the things that they are supposed to beat. I take the point that it can pivot in, mabye throw out a toxic then switch out, but that isnt enough to merit using it for me personally, and it being used for this in my opinion backs up my point that this pokemon is overhyped. This things scald is going to do about 10-20% to most pokemon that it is supposed to beat, granted scald can burn but that means you are leaving beating your opponents team down to chance, which personally, i think makes it an unreliable and frankly a bad check to most of those pokemon.

If you have an issue with amoonguss being frail, toxapex isnt for you. Amoonguss has almost double toxapex's special attack stat, and also has access to spore, with is a huge factor in making sure that amoonguss is not a momentum drain.
 
GnralLao 's post was already enough to discuss your points. Honestly I just think there is no way that you play anything else than pure offense to bring your arguments. Btw, did you ever heard about Chansey and its incredible offensive presence?

Toxapex will be extremely annoying to deal with just with poison, yes Scald got nerfed but it really isnt that much of bad deal for it. I still think that merciless is a great choice of an ability with it, to abuse poison and buff these offenses you are SO worried about, as it still gets recover and has overall better bulk than, for exemple, Mega Sableye.
 
The thing is with pretty much every single calc you provided, is that toxapex will lose 1v1 unless you pray for scald burns. Some people may not have an issue with doing this but personally, I want my checks to reliably beat the things that they are supposed to beat. Even with toxic, its going to love 1v1. I take the point that it can pivot in, mabye throw out a toxic then switch out, but that isnt enough to merit using it for me personally. This things scald is going to do about 10-20% to most pokemon that it is supposed to beat, granted scald can burn but that means you are leaving beating your opponents team down to chance, which personally, i think makes it an unreliable and frankly a bad check to most of those pokemon.

If you have an issue with amoonguss being frail, toxapex isnt for you. Amoonguss has almost double toxapex's special attack stat, and also has access to spore, with is a huge factor in making sure that amoonguss is not a momentum drain.
Well, you just made me turn into a liar. All the calcs with sweepers were to demonstrate what would happen if Toxapex switches into the boosting move (what should happen everytime unless it's coming in the field after a sack, which bares the exact same results) before resetting the opposing mon's stats with Haze. Therefore, Toxapex does indeed beat all the setup sweepers I provided 1 vs 1. And since Toxapex survives the 2HKO against the other attackers (physical or special), Toxapex can simply switch into them multiple times due to Regenerator and Recover before it PP-stalls (against CB Terrakion, Specs Keldeo and others), LO-stalls (against Weavile, Gengar and others) and Toxic/Burn-stalls (against M-Lopunny, M-Metagross and others) them.

Also, your argument for Amoonguss is flawed. Indeed, once Amoonguss uses Spore, it becomes, in fact, a huge momentum drainer as it can't use said move until the sleeping mon wakes up or faints.

If you want to argue on how average/bad Toxapex is, please bring better (and factual) arguments instead of just words that could be applied to pretty much every mon in existence.

Don't expect me to reply to another comment here. I'm done beating that dead horse.
 
GnralLao I'm pretty sure you cannot run Baneful Bunker on that set because it loses so much viability without Toxic. The Regenerator pivot set is pretty pigeonholed: it MUST run Recover, it MUST run Haze, and it MUST run Toxic/Toxic Spikes. Which is a shame, because Baneful Bunker looks pretty damn fun.

As someone who has shredded whole teams with SubToxic Gliscor, I understand very well the value of something that poisons you and never dies. I don't think anyone's questioning its defensive bulk, either. Thing slurps up Draco Meteors like smoothies.

What gives some of us pause is that it does not actually have the utility most mons without offensive presence do. No Rapid Spin, Spikes, Heal Bell, Spore, Leech Seed, U-turn, or the like. Its sole selling point is that it never dies.

On the other hand, as a defensive pivot in Stall, "never dies" is pretty damn attractive. If it can actually force switches, it will find a place on Stall.

Kind of like Tentacruel, it won't be doing much if it's your last pokemon, though.
 
Well, you just made me turn into a liar. All the calcs with sweepers were to demonstrate what would happen if Toxapex switches into the boosting move (what should happen everytime unless it's coming in the field after a sack, which bares the exact same results) before resetting the opposing mon's stats with Haze. Therefore, Toxapex does indeed beat all the setup sweepers I provided 1 vs 1. And since Toxapex survives the 2HKO against the other attackers (physical or special), Toxapex can simply switch into them multiple times due to Regenerator and Recover before it PP-stalls (against CB Terrakion, Specs Keldeo and others), LO-stalls (against Weavile, Gengar and others) and Toxic/Burn-stalls (against M-Lopunny, M-Metagross and others) them.

Also, your argument for Amoonguss is flawed. Indeed, once Amoonguss uses Spore, it becomes, in fact, a huge momentum drainer as it can't use said move until the sleeping mon wakes up or faints.

If you want to argue on how average/bad Toxapex is, please bring better (and factual) arguments instead of just words that could be applied to pretty much every mon in existence.

Don't expect me to reply to another comment here. I'm done beating that dead horse.
Well unlike toxapex, amoonguss has the tools to actually beat the pokemon that it switches into, without resorting to pp stall meaning that infact, is not a momentum drain as long as you dont play stupid with it.

I take the point that this pokemon having haze is a very big bonus for a pokemon that is as do nothing as toxapex, but this is the only thing that separates this pokemon from alomomola, which wants to wish protect all day do beat the pokemon it is supposed to beat. In practice I can see this pokemon is going to be quickly worn down with status such as burn damage making it unable to actually recover stall, and this pokemon is going to be susceptible to status as it is a sitter. This pokemon is also going to be asking to get crit if you use it in the way you have suggested, which, I admit is a slightly unconventional argument, if you are going to sit with a pokemon and recover stall, eventually you are going to be crit and lose the match up.

I also think your list of calcs is extremely misleading, as you fail to calc rocks damage on all but 6 of them, where the rocks damage would ultimately impact the outcome of the match up.
 
The Hallows Keep in mind burn damage only goes even with Black Sludge recovery now.

I'm trying to think of a good Merciless set and I think it can't run Baneful Bunker either unless you won't have a coverage move. Venoshock is the whole reason to run Merciless but you need reliable poison, so you need to run Toxic as Bunker won't proc on most special attackers. Then Recover.

Last move can either be Bunker, which is bad because it leaves you with mono poison attacks, or Liquidate. Merciless set won't run Scald.

FML Toxapex has a bad case of 4MSS.
 
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Well unlike toxapex, amoonguss has the tools to actually beat the pokemon that it switches into, without resorting to pp stall meaning that infact, is not a momentum drain as long as you dont play stupid with it.

I take the point that this pokemon having haze is a very big bonus for a pokemon that is as do nothing as toxapex, but this is the only thing that separates this pokemon from alomomola, which wants to wish protect all day do beat the pokemon it is supposed to beat. In practice I can see this pokemon is going to be quickly worn down with status such as burn damage making it unable to actually recover stall, and this pokemon is going to be susceptible to status as it is a sitter. This pokemon is also going to be asking to get crit if you use it in the way you have suggested, which, I admit is a slightly unconventional argument, if you are going to sit with a pokemon and recover stall, eventually you are going to be crit and lose the match up.

I also think your list of calcs is extremely misleading, as you fail to calc rocks damage on all but 6 of them, where the rocks damage would ultimately impact the outcome of the match up.
Your argument is infuriatingly stupid. This sounds harsh but you are not stopping your baseless argument. No, toxapex is not ment to be an offensive presence. Toxapex is ment to be a sponge w/ regenerator that can dish out status with toxic and cripple attackers with scald. Also fyi scald damage has been reduced to 1/16 of health so there goes your argument. Toxapex is ment to be a glue that checks a large amount of key threats that can spread status. It's not ment to be a sweeper.

I'm sure you have never played anything but offence. Please stop clogging this thread with your ignorant arguments.
 
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