Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

mad0ka

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I don't think Drifloon has gotten worse this gen and there isn't much reasoning after its unban other than "burn got nerfed". Yes, it is harder to outstall pawniard and roost archen now, but that still means that your counter (which is a physical attacker) is getting its attack reduced by half and becoming deadweight for the rest of the game.
The whole reason Drifloon was banned was because it outlasted its checks. This is simply untrue now, because of burn only dealing one damage. You're severely downplaying the effect that burn nerf has had on Drifloon. Yes, Archen or Pawniard are burned after you kill Drifloon, but I don't see how that makes Drifloon broken. Essentially, Drifloon dies to burn these mons, since they can keep coming in throughout the match to threaten out Drifloon.

Recycle-wow-acro-sub drifloon isn't doing anything to resttalk mudbray, however it still beats the rest of its sets (bj, scarf) with ease. Anyways, it's still able to stall the opponent's rock slides/heavy slams/rock tombs/whatever, so none of them touch each other. Even then, Drifloon can use other sets to be a true Mudbray counter, just like hex cm or others, while Mudbray has no other options to beat the balloon.
I never claimed that Acrofloon didnt beat BJ or Scarf. Evio resttalk is Mudbray's most common set, and it hard counters Drifloon's broken ORAS set, while doing many other things for a team. And no, Drifloon cannot stall Mudbray out, because Mudbray has rest, while Drifloon is doing 2-5 chip damage per turn. Rest is essentially 48PP, and Mudbray doesn't need to rest again it as soon as it wakes up. Also, Drifloon cannot switch into a Rock Slide from Mudbray after rocks, so that's really not a "counter". It's a check at most.
252+ Atk Mudbray Rock Slide vs. 116 HP / 164 Def Drifloon: 20-24 (74 - 88.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Drifloons usually ran more SpD than this anyways, which definitely does not survive).

As for the rest of your post, regardless of whether or not Staryu burned Drifloon with Scald, it doesn't mean that Drifloon wasn't the premier spinblocker of ORAS. Even with burn, it still could come in consistently on Staryu and block.

Floon is still able to burn physical attackers, but it completely lacks the 1v1'ing capability it had before, because it can no longer do as much passive damage. For that reason, it has gained many more checks, and we even have a multiple counters now. It's not unhealthy or broken in the slightest.
 

Merritt

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Head TD
Oh we're discussing potential retests? Let me throw my hat in the ring then.



Now before you go off and dismiss this as "oh god is Merritt turning into apt-get" hear out why Misdreavus should be suspected (not necessarily unbanned, but at least suspected). When Misdreavus was banned it was both a) a long time ago and the metagame even in gen 6 had shifted drastically and b) was a mon that was not blatantly broken in a way independent of metagame shifts (ala Tangela, Gligar, or even Murkrow). If we look directly at Gen 7's changes from the metagame when Misdreavus was banned, what has changed?

1) Pokemon that are good theoretical and practical counters have been added or have enjoyed a surge in popularity. While Porygon being gone is definitely unfortunate, Munchlax has been doing quite well and is an even better answer than Porygon was honestly, along with being able to pursuit Misdreavus. Alolan Grimer is also a virtually perfect counter unless Misdreavus suddenly starts running HP Ground who can also pursuit trap/knock off Misdreavus. These are just two examples of viable and stunningly good Misdreavus answers. Vullaby is also a decent check - certainly not a counter since Misdreavus has the option to run Thunderbolt and Dazzling Gleam, but it does force Misdreavus into running one of those two moves.

2) Gen 7 mechanic changes have made Misdreavus less threatening overall. Back in Misdreavus' heyday a popular combination was to pair it with Fletchling, because while Misdreavus had rare sets like TrickScarf or TrickSpecs, most of the time you would end up checking Misdreavus using a scarf mon. Fletchling, in turn, could sweep past those scarf mons when weakened due to Misdreavus directly wearing them down as they switched in or were worn down by hazards. With Fletchling's demise, Misdreavus loses this partner which makes scarfmons directly more viable. The burn damage nerf also hurts Misdreavus, since Will-O-Wisp sets can no longer wear down counters nearly as fast to allow Misdreavus to break through them.

3) Z moves do not benefit Misdreavus overall, having few options that really benefit it, while allowing for far more pokemon to run powerful lure sets and directly increases the risk for Trick sets slightly. While not a large change by any means, it does slightly reduce Misdreavus' effectiveness.

I think Misdreavus would be a healthy presence for the metagame. It helps deal with pokemon that other players have pointed out as potentially problematic (such as trappers and a potential Drifloon return) without doing so in a matter that forces the metagame into being centralized around it. The main issue I see could be something that impacted the last Misdreavus suspect - a general lack of reason to not include it on teams. However, I believe that there is cause for a Misdreavus suspect test at some point. I do understand that this is a horse which a lot of people saw as beaten to death last gen (although fortunately it didn't really reach FREE YANMA status) but I hope that you're willing to be a little open minded about Misdreavus and judge it on its own merits this generation, rather than relying on how it was in a very different metagame.

I do think that a Drifloon suspect probably should probably happen before a Misdreavus retest, although I certainly wouldn't object to the reverse.
 
Oh we're discussing potential retests? Let me throw my hat in the ring then.
Not that I'm a super strict individual, but no, we are talking about Drifloon in particular, not "general" retests.
1) Pokemon that are good theoretical and practical counters have been added or have enjoyed a surge in popularity. While Porygon being gone is definitely unfortunate, Munchlax has been doing quite well and is an even better answer than Porygon was honestly, along with being able to pursuit Misdreavus. Alolan Grimer is also a virtually perfect counter unless Misdreavus suddenly starts running HP Ground who can also pursuit trap/knock off Misdreavus. These are just two examples of viable and stunningly good Misdreavus answers. Vullaby is also a decent check - certainly not a counter since Misdreavus has the option to run Thunderbolt and Dazzling Gleam, but it does force Misdreavus into running one of those two moves.
Grimer-A that's optimized to beat Missy survives with like 1 HP while burned. I don't think that's a "perfect" counter. Pursuit, after WoW, does nothing as well. Munchlax is capable of Whirlwinding Misdreavus, but not much else. We actually just banned 2 mons that had the same argument against it - not boding well for Misdreavus already.

2) Gen 7 mechanic changes have made Misdreavus less threatening overall. Back in Misdreavus' heyday a popular combination was to pair it with Fletchling, because while Misdreavus had rare sets like TrickScarf or TrickSpecs, most of the time you would end up checking Misdreavus using a scarf mon. Fletchling, in turn, could sweep past those scarf mons when weakened due to Misdreavus directly wearing them down as they switched in or were worn down by hazards. With Fletchling's demise, Misdreavus loses this partner which makes scarfmons directly more viable. The burn damage nerf also hurts Misdreavus, since Will-O-Wisp sets can no longer wear down counters nearly as fast to allow Misdreavus to break through them.
Scarf Mons are just as common as they were before in my experience. Also let's be clear; Misdreavus is not Drifloon. It doesn't give a shit about the burn damage nerf because it only uses it to cripple its would-be counters before it 2 shots them.

3) Z moves do not benefit Misdreavus overall, having few options that really benefit it, while allowing for far more pokemon to run powerful lure sets and directly increases the risk for Trick sets slightly. While not a large change by any means, it does slightly reduce Misdreavus' effectiveness.
Was the Trick set even popular? I don't even remember it being that good. It definitely wasn't an important feature in banning Misdreavus it was just icing on the cake. Missy really only needs the NP set to be broken because of the insane amount of coverage moves it has at its disposal.

Even with that one set, I think it's a bit presumptuous saying that Z-moves don't help. It can probably drop a few Pokemon with like Thunderbolt/Thunder Z-moves if it's otherwise eating a Knock Off. It can also use the infamous Z-memento. Z-Trick for +2 Speed sounds fun too. Maybe some nice 100% recovery from Heal Bell? ? ? ? ?

I think this is an interesting discussion for the future. I'm cautiously omitting "distant" before the word future, but that's where I would be leaning if it were up to me.
 
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Coconut

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Gonna just drop my quick thoughts on the banned ghost types of LC....

Drifloon - I'm going to agree with Sken for the most part on this one, I don't think it's overall useful-ness as an option for a team has gone down. With the only kind of evidence to it getting any weaker being that it only lost some damage on burn, I don't think this is significant enough of a change to unban Drifloon. It still has the potential to generate free turns, heal accordingly and stall a solid portion of the meta. I don't like the argument that it lost a check in Porygon, as that seems kind of weak, but I digress. I think it has gained a solid counter in Resttalk Mudbray, as that sufficiently walls last gen's recycle floon. However, I can see many people running Drifloon adapting to this, running a set similar to last gen, but with Hex over Acrobatics, as it can (eventually) break Mudbray. Mudbray also has no solid, reliable options to beat it back really, which is a massive pain for something that's supposed to be a counter to it. In addition to that, CM Hex Floon is also a significant set, as it, once again, allows Drifloon to beat many of the things that would normally come in on the typical stall set. As for it's utility as a spinblocker, while I think that it would be a little overwheming at even this job, LC could use a reliable spinblocker. I just don't understand why exactly this is a point people are trying to make. It still loses to Staryu, doesn't it?

All of that being said, I am currently against unbanning Drifloon, as I see it as nothing but "giving the whiners what they want" at the current moment. I am easily swayed on the idea, as their could be something that I am missing on this idea. All of that being said, am I against a Drifloon suspect test? No. I think that there is a significant amount of people that have requested this and I believe that the council should consider suspecting Drifloon, even if a majority of them still believe that it might still be broken.

Misdreavus - Like Heysup said, we are supposed to be focusing on a Drifloon suspect, not like you would know that from a tagline post of any kind, but I think I can tie my thoughts together with the Drifloon suspect too at the end. Misdreavus is blessed with a myriad of options that allow it to succeed sufficiently; moves that lower attack, lower speed, Trick, Memento, and a very solid offensive movepool. I don't see any Pursuit trappers this gen running enough speed to beat Misdreavus, so all of them (should) get burned and Misdreavus should be able to survive the encounter with the counter with ease. While Alola Grimer has the potential to work really well at beating Missy, after running a couple of the numbers, I don't foresee this being a reliable counter, maybe a one-time, hope this works kind of gamble. As many BW players will tell you, the best way to beat Missy is to wear it down. The problem with this though, many things have difficulty doing this without getting 2HKO'd, and being able to just remove most of a pokemon's health in this metagame is a little too good. While I agree that Z-Moves in general don't really benefit Misdreavus, as a lot of the potential options that it gets seem kinda gimmicky (EXCEPT MEMENTO HOLY MOLY) I still don't want to lose something to a Z-Shadow Ball or Z-Thunder. All of that being said, I don't think Misdreavus would be broken if I laid out all of the options that it had in this paragraph. I think the Nasty Plot set is far and wide the best set on Misdreavus and absolutely puts Misdreavus over the top as a powerful, scary, fast threat in the metagame. I don't want to throw up some calcs, just trust me when I say that an 85 SpA pokemon with +2 is going to hit hard.

Like Drifloon, I am currently against unbanning Misdreavus, as it's Nasty Plot set is still very, very strong, and the ability to survive a dark type 80% of the time is a little bit too overwhelming for the current metagame. Am I, however, against a Misdreavus suspect test? It's complicated. At the current moment, yes, I am, unlike Drifloon, there's practically no support around this mon, as no one really cares yet. However, I can see in the nearish future us looking back at Misdreavus and after a look under the microscope determining that it isn't that difficult to play against in this gen. Fat chance, in all honesty, but we'll see what the future holds.

tl;dr suspect maybe, unban no.
 
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Corporal Levi

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Of course madoka and heysup would be the types of jerks who would want to popularize a set like this in gen 6:

Drifloon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 84 Def / 84 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recycle
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute

The idea behind Acrofloon is straight-forward: burn something, press Recycle, and Substitute when you can afford to; repeat until the enemy is dead. Between reliable recovery, just enough bulk to avoid most OHKOs, and Unburden to outspeed the entire metagame, this set was deemed too good for LC because it could win the vast majority of 1v1s, and had very limited checks in conjunction with Diglett.

Luckily for us, the burn nerf hit Acrofloon hard, since Recycle only has 16 PP. Now, 16 PP was more than enough back in ORAS, because Recycle + burn alone would be doing the equivalent of 32 HP damage against Pokemon with 23 or less HP, and a whopping 48 HP damage against bulkier Pokemon with 24 or more HP; this was doubled to 64 and 96 if the enemy wasn't strong enough to pressure Drifloon and prevent it from alternating between Substitute and Recycle. This allowed Drifloon to pose as a major threat to offensive and defensive teams alike.

After the nerf, Recycle + burn is doing 16 HP damage. Substitute + Recycle + Burn is doing 32 HP damage. Even against a weaker Pokemon where Drifloon manages to get Substitute up, it won't be outstalling more than one Pokemon. Against anything that hits Drifloon hard enough to deny it from getting extra stalling in through Substitute, it may not even be able to stall out a single Pokemon. It's also important that Drifloon's damage per turn has gone down drastically, especially against the defensive Pokemon that have 24+ HP and access to recovery - most Pokemon that can regenerate their health are now easily able to stall Drifloon out.

With that in mind, let's go over the three main reasons why Drifloon was banned in ORAS and why they no longer apply.

Drifloon beats traditional bird checks.

This isn't true anymore for one reason - Fletchling isn't the dominant bird anymore! Now that we're left with the likes of Vullaby, Rufflet, and Doduo, we're on a whole other level of damage. Checking birds isn't what it used to be when you're facing Z-Mirror Move or Hustle-boosted Brave Birds off of an already great Attack stat, coupled with strong Fighting coverage and often Knock Off. Only the meanest, toughest bulky Rock- and Electric-types like Solid Rock Tirtouga, bulky Dwebble, and Eviolite Chinchou can hope to stomach some of the most powerful attacks in the metagame to claim the title of Bird Check; Drifloon's flimsy Acrobatics isn't enough to even make them think of flinching.

Drifloon doesn't have enough checks.

Here is where the burn nerf really haunts Drifloon. Remember how Acrofloon used to be able to win the vast majority of 1v1s? Well, not anymore - it can't even beat Analytic Staryu 1v1, let alone spinblock against it!

I've compiled a list of checks to some of the more prominent sweepers in the current metagame, down to B+, to see where Drifloon is at in terms of how difficult it is to check compared to what is currently available. I split up the sets of some of the more prominent Pokemon when listing them as checks, like Mienfoo and Vullaby. Keep in mind that this isn't supposed to be treated as a resource for teambuilding - there's certainly nothing wrong with going lower down the viability rankings to check things - so there may be a few inaccuracies; it's just to give a rough idea of how hard to check Drifloon really is in gen 7.

Counters and hard checks
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Eviolite Munchlax
Berry Juice Munchlax
Eviolite Chinchou
Onix
Snubbull
Spritzee
Eviolite Tirtouga

Soft checks
Dazzling Gleam Sash Abra
Scarf Magnemite
Eviolite Magnemite
Shellder
Scarf Chinchou
Eviolite Corphish
Eviolite Dwebble
Omanyte
Mareanie
Whirlwind Hippopotas
Counters and hard checks
Eviolite Magnemite
Shellder
Eviolite Chinchou
Onix
Snubbull
Spritzee
Tirtouga

Soft checks
Eviolite Mudbray
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Scarf Magnemite
Dazzling Gleam Sash Abra
Eviolite Dwebble
Ice Beam Omanyte
Whirlwind Eviolite Munchlax
Whirlwind Hippopotas
Surprise (p)haze
Counters and hard checks

Soft checks
Pivot Vullaby
Physical attacker Vullaby
Scarf Pawniard
Eviolite/LO Pawniard
Carvanha
Scraggy
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Whirlwind Eviolite Munchlax
Whirlwind Hippopotas
Counters and hard checks
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Eviolite Magnemite
Eviolite Pawniard
Berry Juice Munchlax
Berry Juice Chinchou
Slowpoke

Soft checks
Berry Juice Mudbray
Non-Eviolite Pawniard
Eviolite Munchlax
Eviolite Chinchou
Cottonee
Ferroseed
Mareanie
Snubbull
Tirtouga
Counters and hard checks
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Cottonee
Croagunk
Ferroseed
Snubbull
Spritzee
Timburr

Soft checks
Eviolite Mienfoo
Sash Abra
Eviolite Magnemite
Eviolite Chinchou
Berry Juice Chinchou
Scraggy
Thunderbolt Staryu
Counters and hard checks
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Berry Juice Munchlax
Eviolite Munchlax
Croagunk
Ferroseed
Timburr

Soft checks
Eviolite Mienfoo
Sash Abra
Eviolite Magnemite
Brick Break Pawniard
Foongus
Cottonee
Berry Juice Chinchou
Scraggy
Thunderbolt Staryu
Spritzee
Munchlax @ Berry Juice
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Curse
- Recycle
- Whirlwind / Pursuit / Earthquake

Counters and hard checks
Taunt/Swords Dance Mienfoo
Swords Dance Pawniard
Clear Smog Foongus
Berry Juice Will-O-Wisp Gastly
Scraggy
Bulk Up Croagunk
Bulk Up Timburr
Bulk Up Superpower Rufflet
Haze Mareanie
Pumpkaboo

Soft checks
High Jump Kick Mienfoo
Non-SD Eviolite/Life Orb Pawniard
Sash Gastly
Cottonee
Leech Seed Ferroseed
Onix
Whirlwind Hippopotas
Counters and hard checks
Scarf Mienfoo
Scarf Vullaby
Croagunk
Scarf Rufflet
Scarf Doduo
Snubbull
Spritzee
Timburr

Soft checks
High Jump Kick Eviolite Mienfoo
Pivot Vullaby
Clear Smog Foongus
Sash Dazzling Gleam Abra
Eviolite Rufflet
Haze Mareanie
Counters and hard checks
Pivot Vullaby
Choice Scarf Vullaby
Foongus
Life Orb Gastly
Berry Juice/Focus Sash Gastly
Eviolite Ponyta
Offensive Ponyta
Eviolite Rufflet
Berry Juice Doduo
Life Orb Torchic

Soft checks
Choice Scarf Mienfoo
Mirror Move Vullaby
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Sash Abra
Scarf Pawniard
Eviolite/Life Orb Pawniard
Special Carvanha
Scarf Scraggy
Life Orb Staryu
Croagunk
Scarf Rufflet
Scarf/Life Orb Doduo
Ferroseed
Bellsprout
Fire Blast Pumpkaboo
Vulpix
Counters and hard checks
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Sash Abra
Life Orb Abra
Eviolite Gothita
Eviolite Mudbray
Berry Juice Mudbray
Psychic Staryu
Berry Juice Doduo
Haze Mareanie
Berry Juice Onix
Bulk Up Rufflet
Drilbur
Hippopotas
Psychic/Psyshock Slowpoke

Soft checks
Substitute Diglett
Eviolite Ponyta
Scarf Rufflet
Substitute Gastly
Special Pumpkaboo
Counters and hard checks
Focus Sash/Eviolite Diglett
Life Orb Diglett
Pivot Vullaby
Physical attacker Vullaby
Sash Abra
Life Orb Abra
Eviolite Gothita
Scarf Gothita
Eviolite Mudbray
Berry Juice Mudbray
Psychic Staryu
Bulk Up Rufflet
Scarf Rufflet
Haze Mareanie
Drilbur Hippopotas
Specially Defensive Psychic/Psyshock Slowpoke

Soft checks
Earthquake Munchlax
Eviolite Onix
Eviolite Zen Headbutt Tirtouga
Counters and hard checks
Sash Abra
Life Orb Abra
Eviolite Gothita
Scarf Gothita
Clear Smog Foongus
Cottonee
Croagunk
Haze Mareanie
Bulk Up Rufflet
Snubbull
Spritzee

Soft checks
Pivot Vullaby
Nasty Plot Vullaby
LO Gastly
Scarf Rufflet
Whirlwind Hippopotas
Slowpoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 76 Atk / 76 Def / 196 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake
- Slack Off

Counters and hard checks
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Mirror Move Vullaby
Sash Energy Ball Abra
Scarf Gothita
Special Carvanha
Foongus
Snivy
Hex Gastly
Scraggy
Cottonee
Pumpkaboo

Soft checks
Taunt Mienfoo
Scarf Magnemite
Eviolite Magnemite
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Eviolite Swords Dance Pawniard
Thunderbolt Staryu
Thunderbolt Chinchou
Haze Mareanie
Calm Mind Spritzee
Slowpoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 236 Def / 116 SpA / 36 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Flamethrower / Psyshock
- Slack Off

Counters and hard checks
Physical Vullaby
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Eviolite/Life Orb Pawniard
Physical Carvanha
Curselax
Scraggy
Eviolite Snivy

Soft checks
Scarf Pawniard
Clear Smog Foongus
Whirlwind Munchlax
Berry Juice/Scarf Snivy
Corphish
Giga Drain Cottonee
Calm Mind Spritzee

Drifloon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 84 Def / 84 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recycle
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute

Counters and hard checks
Pivot Vullaby
Physical attacker Vullaby
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Scarf Magnemite
Eviolite Magnemite
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Shellder
RestTalk Mudbray
RestTalk Gothita
RestTalk Munchlax
Pursuit BJ Munchlax
Eviolite Ponyta
Berry Juice/Eviolite Chinchou
Scarf Chinchou
Dwebble
Onix
Bulk Up Rufflet
Omanyte
Calm Mind Spritzee
Tirtouga
Slowpoke

Soft checks
Berry Juice / Life Orb Pawniard
Analytic Staryu
Thunderbolt/Ice Beam Natural Cure Staryu
Offensive Ponyta
Cottonee
Recover Mareanie
LO Torchic
Drifloon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 84 Def / 116 SpA / 84 SpD / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recycle
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind

Counters and hard checks
Pivot Vullaby
Physical attacker Vullaby
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Berry Juice Pawniard
Scarf Magnemite
RestTalk Munchlax
Pursuit BJ Munchlax
Scraggy
Bulk Up Rufflet
Eviolite Shell Smash Tirtouga

Soft checks
Eviolite Magnemite
Shellder
Life Orb/Eviolite/Scarf Pawniard
Physical Carvanha
Ponyta
Cottonee
Dwebble
Onix
Scarf Doduo
Whirlwind Hippopotas
Knock Off Omanyte
BJ Tirtouga

It seems clear that Acrofloon is slightly easier to check, and much, much easier to counter than most other sweepers, while Calm Mind is a good sweeper but not unusually so. It's not just the number of counters, though - remember that the burn nerfs have also made it so that Acrofloon in particular has a much more difficult time actually sweeping at all, since it may run out of Recycle PP before doing substantial damage. So not only is it easier to check than these top sweepers, it's also much less threatening.

One pro-ban argument I've been seeing is that since some of Acrofloon and Calm Mind Drifloon's checks are not the same, it helps to make Drifloon overall harder to deal with. To begin with, this is much less true this gen because many of the things that have always checked Calm Mind Drifloon now happen to check Acrofloon as well. I went out of my way to include some sweepers that have multiple sets in the list of checks above, and they don't seem any easier to deal with than the combination of Acrofloon + Calm Mind Drifloon. Excluding that, a counterargument that was used last time, and still holds now, is that Calm Mind Drifloon isn't at all threatening initially; as such, you can go to your Acrofloon check almost risk-free to scout for the set, and then double to your Calm Mind Drifloon check if it happens to be a Calm Mind variant, because most Calm Mind Drifloon checks don't mind whether it's at +1 or +2. That is, if you have prepared for both Acrofloon and CM Drifloon, you have a mostly risk-free way to scout for the set in such a way that the sets having different checks doesn't matter. Of course, even that may not be necessary in SuMo if Acrofloon ends up not being very good - in that case, you can just assume it's a Calm Mind variant right off the bat.

Drifloon doesn't have enough checks when it is paired with Diglett.

(FloonDig usually refers to a combination of Acrofloon and LO Diglett.) There are other points to be made here, but the main one directly ties in with the vast increase in Drifloon checks. Simply put, Drifloon has gotten many new checks, and many of these are Diglett-resistant. FloonDig is no longer especially difficult to deal with, because even with Diglett supporting it, Acrofloon is significantly easier to check and harder to sweep with than most other offensive Pokemon. FloonDig seems even less impressive when you compare it to other Diglett cores. For example, compare the above two lists of checks for Acrofloon and physical Carvanha after removing Diglett-weak Pokemon from both lists.

Calm Mind Drifloon, meanwhile, has fairly limited synergy with Diglett to begin with. Diglett only helps against a few of its checks, and FloonDig stacks weaknesses against some extremely threatening sweepers like Shellder, Scraggy, and Vullaby; the main reason Diglett is a good partner to Calm Mind Drifloon at all is because it helps to remove Toxic Spikes absorbers, which lets Drifloon can take advantage of Hex more easily on Toxic Spikes offense teams.


This isn't to say that Drifloon won't be viable - last gen, outside of the traits that got it banned, it was a great offensive spinblocker, an interesting utility check to some key sweepers, and single-handedly made Toxic Spikes offense a viable strategy. Though it may struggle with Analytic Ice Beam Staryu now, I don't see these positive traits disappearing otherwise. Before Recycle became a mainstay, Drifloon was considered one of the most interesting Pokemon to build with due to having just the right amount of versatility to be rewarding when played with well, but not overwhelmingly so. On the other hand, its banworthy traits have been thoroughly mitigated by the mechanical changes and metagame shifts of the new generation, so we're left with little to no drawbacks to allowing it. I think it's time we let Drifloon back into the tier.

tl;dr the reasoning behind Drifloon's ban no longer applies in gen 7, so Drifloon should be freed.


POSSIBLE DISCUSSION POINTS:
1. What is YOUR reasoning behind wanting Drifloon back in LC?
2. On a scale of 1 to 10, how excited are you for Drifloon being let back into LC, and why 10?
3. What was your favourite memory of Drifloon in gen 6? If you weren't around at the time, what do you most look forward to about Drifloon in gen 7? (If your answer is seeing Drifloon get banned, you don't have a soul)
 
Let's talk about something we've all discussed before...



Drifloon's been considered to be unbannable by a large portion of the community, though some remain opposed. People have noted that it has gotten a significant damage nerf (will-o-wisp), and it is no longer broken (or so they say). here's my contribution to the discussion.

To decide if drifloon is still broken, we must first establish the reason it was broken to begin with. According to This post, Drifloon was "hard to deal with over time." The meta has shifted since the new gen, but I don't think it's gotten much faster (at least not to the point that Drifloon doesn't get a chance to whittle it's checks down with rocks). The post goes on to say "With Unburden, Drifloon outspeed the entire tier once its Berry Juice was consumed, making means of revenge killing it hard to manage." alright, nothing has changed here. Unburden is insanely strong in an aggressive knock-off oriented meta such as the one you see today in LC.

In terms of killing drifloon, what are some of the common threats that do well against Drifloon? Common threats in the tier right now include Chinchou, vullaby, dwebble, and shellder, which all do well against floon, but Vullaby is the only pokemon on that list that has changed significantly. Is that enough to make Drifloon okay again? Well Drifloon still deals with the ever-popular fighting types, as well as the two biggest specially offensive threats in the tier - Abra and Gothita while now beating out the new Dewider.

Has there been a new archetype/win condition that has arisen since Drifloon's ban? Well yes. Alolan Sandshrew and Alolan Vulpix have shot up to 13th and 16th respectively in terms of overall usage at a rating of 1500+. Hail teams do a lot of damage to Drifloon, popping the berry juice rather quickly. In addition, the pressure of hail prevents Drifloon from stalling all day while waiting for burn to kill, as it's health ticks down faster than it's opponent's. Slush rush can check Calm Mind floon since it runs less speed than it's counterparts. Finally, Ice shard will finish off a low-health Drifloon regardless of how much speed it has, providing an effective buffer against the balloon.

It is worth noting that with the rise of np Vullaby, Doduo, and Rufflett, every team generally includes a check/counter to birds, most of which Drifloon would be weak to. Drifloon can't even run the same sets it did nearly as effectively as it can't rely on the will-o-wisp stalling all day anymore. Sure it can still use hex to dish out the damage after it burns its foes to cripple them, but hex sets lack 2 of coverage, substitute, or calm mind making them less effective overall. In general, Drifloon will not be PP stalling as much anymore, and will have a decent issue with 4 moveslot syndrome.


what has changed?:
- floon lost 1 damage per turn of will-o-wisp, which equates to about 10 damage per game (enough to half-health anything in the tier)
- It loses to the new vullaby (even harder than it used to)
- It loses to hail teams
- everybody complains about birds already, so they all have checks now
- it beats Dewpider

After listing all of the changes to Drifloon, it is clear that the poor 'mon has received a significant nerf. It didn't gain anything in particular, while losing quite a bit in the current meta. It appears to be that Drifloon deserves a subject test at the very least, considering that it lost it's ability to PP stall half of the 'mons in the tier. A calm-mind Drifloon may still be a powerful pokemon, but it won't be anything that is not comparable to the likes of Vullaby or ghastly.
 

GOAO

Banned deucer.
POSSIBLE DISCUSSION POINTS:
1. What is YOUR reasoning behind wanting Drifloon back in LC?
2. On a scale of 1 to 10, how excited are you for Drifloon being let back into LC, and why 10?
3. What was your favourite memory of Drifloon in gen 6? If you weren't around at the time, what do you most look forward to about Drifloon in gen 7? (If your answer is seeing Drifloon get banned, you don't have a soul)
1. i want to use weakness policy + endure
2. i can pass the +2/2 boost from weakness policy
3. i won vs heysup in a test game once using drifloon
 




Of course madoka and heysup would be the types of jerks who would want to popularize a set like this in gen 6:

Drifloon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 84 Def / 84 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recycle
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute

The idea behind Acrofloon is straight-forward: burn something, press Recycle, and Substitute when you can afford to; repeat until the enemy is dead. Between reliable recovery, just enough bulk to avoid most OHKOs, and Unburden to outspeed the entire metagame, this set was deemed too good for LC because it could win the vast majority of 1v1s, and had very limited checks in conjunction with Diglett.

Luckily for us, the burn nerf hit Acrofloon hard, since Recycle only has 16 PP. Now, 16 PP was more than enough back in ORAS, because Recycle + burn alone would be doing the equivalent of 32 HP damage against Pokemon with 23 or less HP, and a whopping 48 HP damage against bulkier Pokemon with 24 or more HP; this was doubled to 64 and 96 if the enemy wasn't strong enough to pressure Drifloon and prevent it from alternating between Substitute and Recycle. This allowed Drifloon to pose as a major threat to offensive and defensive teams alike.

After the nerf, Recycle + burn is doing 16 HP damage. Substitute + Recycle + Burn is doing 32 HP damage. Even against a weaker Pokemon where Drifloon manages to get Substitute up, it won't be outstalling more than one Pokemon. Against anything that hits Drifloon hard enough to deny it from getting extra stalling in through Substitute, it may not even be able to stall out a single Pokemon. It's also important that Drifloon's damage per turn has gone down drastically, especially against the defensive Pokemon that have 24+ HP and access to recovery - most Pokemon that can regenerate their health are now easily able to stall Drifloon out.

With that in mind, let's go over the three main reasons why Drifloon was banned in ORAS and why they no longer apply.

Drifloon beats traditional bird checks.

This isn't true anymore for one reason - Fletchling isn't the dominant bird anymore! Now that we're left with the likes of Vullaby, Rufflet, and Doduo, we're on a whole other level of damage. Checking birds isn't what it used to be when you're facing Z-Mirror Move or Hustle-boosted Brave Birds off of an already great Attack stat, coupled with strong Fighting coverage and often Knock Off. Only the meanest, toughest bulky Rock- and Electric-types like Solid Rock Tirtouga, bulky Dwebble, and Eviolite Chinchou can hope to stomach some of the most powerful attacks in the metagame to claim the title of Bird Check; Drifloon's flimsy Acrobatics isn't enough to even make them think of flinching.

Drifloon doesn't have enough checks.

Here is where the burn nerf really haunts Drifloon. Remember how Acrofloon used to be able to win the vast majority of 1v1s? Well, not anymore - it can't even beat Analytic Staryu 1v1, let alone spinblock against it!

I've compiled a list of checks to some of the more prominent sweepers in the current metagame, down to B+, to see where Drifloon is at in terms of how difficult it is to check compared to what is currently available. I split up the sets of some of the more prominent Pokemon when listing them as checks, like Mienfoo and Vullaby. Keep in mind that this isn't supposed to be treated as a resource for teambuilding - there's certainly nothing wrong with going lower down the viability rankings to check things - so there may be a few inaccuracies; it's just to give a rough idea of how hard to check Drifloon really is in gen 7.

Counters and hard checks
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Eviolite Munchlax
Berry Juice Munchlax
Eviolite Chinchou
Onix
Snubbull
Spritzee
Eviolite Tirtouga

Soft checks
Dazzling Gleam Sash Abra
Scarf Magnemite
Eviolite Magnemite
Shellder
Scarf Chinchou
Eviolite Corphish
Eviolite Dwebble
Omanyte
Mareanie
Whirlwind Hippopotas
Counters and hard checks
Eviolite Magnemite
Shellder
Eviolite Chinchou
Onix
Snubbull
Spritzee
Tirtouga

Soft checks
Eviolite Mudbray
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Scarf Magnemite
Dazzling Gleam Sash Abra
Eviolite Dwebble
Ice Beam Omanyte
Whirlwind Eviolite Munchlax
Whirlwind Hippopotas
Surprise (p)haze
Counters and hard checks

Soft checks
Pivot Vullaby
Physical attacker Vullaby
Scarf Pawniard
Eviolite/LO Pawniard
Carvanha
Scraggy
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Whirlwind Eviolite Munchlax
Whirlwind Hippopotas
Counters and hard checks
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Eviolite Magnemite
Eviolite Pawniard
Berry Juice Munchlax
Berry Juice Chinchou
Slowpoke

Soft checks
Berry Juice Mudbray
Non-Eviolite Pawniard
Eviolite Munchlax
Eviolite Chinchou
Cottonee
Ferroseed
Mareanie
Snubbull
Tirtouga
Counters and hard checks
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Cottonee
Croagunk
Ferroseed
Snubbull
Spritzee
Timburr

Soft checks
Eviolite Mienfoo
Sash Abra
Eviolite Magnemite
Eviolite Chinchou
Berry Juice Chinchou
Scraggy
Thunderbolt Staryu
Counters and hard checks
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Berry Juice Munchlax
Eviolite Munchlax
Croagunk
Ferroseed
Timburr

Soft checks
Eviolite Mienfoo
Sash Abra
Eviolite Magnemite
Brick Break Pawniard
Foongus
Cottonee
Berry Juice Chinchou
Scraggy
Thunderbolt Staryu
Spritzee
Munchlax @ Berry Juice
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Curse
- Recycle
- Whirlwind / Pursuit / Earthquake

Counters and hard checks
Taunt/Swords Dance Mienfoo
Swords Dance Pawniard
Clear Smog Foongus
Berry Juice Will-O-Wisp Gastly
Scraggy
Bulk Up Croagunk
Bulk Up Timburr
Bulk Up Superpower Rufflet
Haze Mareanie
Pumpkaboo

Soft checks
High Jump Kick Mienfoo
Non-SD Eviolite/Life Orb Pawniard
Sash Gastly
Cottonee
Leech Seed Ferroseed
Onix
Whirlwind Hippopotas
Counters and hard checks
Scarf Mienfoo
Scarf Vullaby
Croagunk
Scarf Rufflet
Scarf Doduo
Snubbull
Spritzee
Timburr

Soft checks
High Jump Kick Eviolite Mienfoo
Pivot Vullaby
Clear Smog Foongus
Sash Dazzling Gleam Abra
Eviolite Rufflet
Haze Mareanie
Counters and hard checks
Pivot Vullaby
Choice Scarf Vullaby
Foongus
Life Orb Gastly
Berry Juice/Focus Sash Gastly
Eviolite Ponyta
Offensive Ponyta
Eviolite Rufflet
Berry Juice Doduo
Life Orb Torchic

Soft checks
Choice Scarf Mienfoo
Mirror Move Vullaby
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Sash Abra
Scarf Pawniard
Eviolite/Life Orb Pawniard
Special Carvanha
Scarf Scraggy
Life Orb Staryu
Croagunk
Scarf Rufflet
Scarf/Life Orb Doduo
Ferroseed
Bellsprout
Fire Blast Pumpkaboo
Vulpix
Counters and hard checks
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Sash Abra
Life Orb Abra
Eviolite Gothita
Eviolite Mudbray
Berry Juice Mudbray
Psychic Staryu
Berry Juice Doduo
Haze Mareanie
Berry Juice Onix
Bulk Up Rufflet
Drilbur
Hippopotas
Psychic/Psyshock Slowpoke

Soft checks
Substitute Diglett
Eviolite Ponyta
Scarf Rufflet
Substitute Gastly
Special Pumpkaboo
Counters and hard checks
Focus Sash/Eviolite Diglett
Life Orb Diglett
Pivot Vullaby
Physical attacker Vullaby
Sash Abra
Life Orb Abra
Eviolite Gothita
Scarf Gothita
Eviolite Mudbray
Berry Juice Mudbray
Psychic Staryu
Bulk Up Rufflet
Scarf Rufflet
Haze Mareanie
Drilbur Hippopotas
Specially Defensive Psychic/Psyshock Slowpoke

Soft checks
Earthquake Munchlax
Eviolite Onix
Eviolite Zen Headbutt Tirtouga
Counters and hard checks
Sash Abra
Life Orb Abra
Eviolite Gothita
Scarf Gothita
Clear Smog Foongus
Cottonee
Croagunk
Haze Mareanie
Bulk Up Rufflet
Snubbull
Spritzee

Soft checks
Pivot Vullaby
Nasty Plot Vullaby
LO Gastly
Scarf Rufflet
Whirlwind Hippopotas
Slowpoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 76 Atk / 76 Def / 196 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake
- Slack Off

Counters and hard checks
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Mirror Move Vullaby
Sash Energy Ball Abra
Scarf Gothita
Special Carvanha
Foongus
Snivy
Hex Gastly
Scraggy
Cottonee
Pumpkaboo

Soft checks
Taunt Mienfoo
Scarf Magnemite
Eviolite Magnemite
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Eviolite Swords Dance Pawniard
Thunderbolt Staryu
Thunderbolt Chinchou
Haze Mareanie
Calm Mind Spritzee
Slowpoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 236 Def / 116 SpA / 36 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Flamethrower / Psyshock
- Slack Off

Counters and hard checks
Physical Vullaby
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Eviolite/Life Orb Pawniard
Physical Carvanha
Curselax
Scraggy
Eviolite Snivy

Soft checks
Scarf Pawniard
Clear Smog Foongus
Whirlwind Munchlax
Berry Juice/Scarf Snivy
Corphish
Giga Drain Cottonee
Calm Mind Spritzee

Drifloon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 84 Def / 84 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recycle
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute

Counters and hard checks
Pivot Vullaby
Physical attacker Vullaby
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Scarf Magnemite
Eviolite Magnemite
SturdyJuice Magnemite
Shellder
RestTalk Mudbray
RestTalk Gothita
RestTalk Munchlax
Pursuit BJ Munchlax
Eviolite Ponyta
Berry Juice/Eviolite Chinchou
Scarf Chinchou
Dwebble
Onix
Bulk Up Rufflet
Omanyte
Calm Mind Spritzee
Tirtouga
Slowpoke

Soft checks
Berry Juice / Life Orb Pawniard
Analytic Staryu
Thunderbolt/Ice Beam Natural Cure Staryu
Offensive Ponyta
Cottonee
Recover Mareanie
LO Torchic
Drifloon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 84 Def / 116 SpA / 84 SpD / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recycle
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind

Counters and hard checks
Pivot Vullaby
Physical attacker Vullaby
Nasty Plot Vullaby
Berry Juice Pawniard
Scarf Magnemite
RestTalk Munchlax
Pursuit BJ Munchlax
Scraggy
Bulk Up Rufflet
Eviolite Shell Smash Tirtouga

Soft checks
Eviolite Magnemite
Shellder
Life Orb/Eviolite/Scarf Pawniard
Physical Carvanha
Ponyta
Cottonee
Dwebble
Onix
Scarf Doduo
Whirlwind Hippopotas
Knock Off Omanyte
BJ Tirtouga

It seems clear that Acrofloon is slightly easier to check, and much, much easier to counter than most other sweepers, while Calm Mind is a good sweeper but not unusually so. It's not just the number of counters, though - remember that the burn nerfs have also made it so that Acrofloon in particular has a much more difficult time actually sweeping at all, since it may run out of Recycle PP before doing substantial damage. So not only is it easier to check than these top sweepers, it's also much less threatening.

One pro-ban argument I've been seeing is that since some of Acrofloon and Calm Mind Drifloon's checks are not the same, it helps to make Drifloon overall harder to deal with. To begin with, this is much less true this gen because many of the things that have always checked Calm Mind Drifloon now happen to check Acrofloon as well. I went out of my way to include some sweepers that have multiple sets in the list of checks above, and they don't seem any easier to deal with than the combination of Acrofloon + Calm Mind Drifloon. Excluding that, a counterargument that was used last time, and still holds now, is that Calm Mind Drifloon isn't at all threatening initially; as such, you can go to your Acrofloon check almost risk-free to scout for the set, and then double to your Calm Mind Drifloon check if it happens to be a Calm Mind variant, because most Calm Mind Drifloon checks don't mind whether it's at +1 or +2. That is, if you have prepared for both Acrofloon and CM Drifloon, you have a mostly risk-free way to scout for the set in such a way that the sets having different checks doesn't matter. Of course, even that may not be necessary in SuMo if Acrofloon ends up not being very good - in that case, you can just assume it's a Calm Mind variant right off the bat.

Drifloon doesn't have enough checks when it is paired with Diglett.

(FloonDig usually refers to a combination of Acrofloon and LO Diglett.) There are other points to be made here, but the main one directly ties in with the vast increase in Drifloon checks. Simply put, Drifloon has gotten many new checks, and many of these are Diglett-resistant. FloonDig is no longer especially difficult to deal with, because even with Diglett supporting it, Acrofloon is significantly easier to check and harder to sweep with than most other offensive Pokemon. FloonDig seems even less impressive when you compare it to other Diglett cores. For example, compare the above two lists of checks for Acrofloon and physical Carvanha after removing Diglett-weak Pokemon from both lists.

Calm Mind Drifloon, meanwhile, has fairly limited synergy with Diglett to begin with. Diglett only helps against a few of its checks, and FloonDig stacks weaknesses against some extremely threatening sweepers like Shellder, Scraggy, and Vullaby; the main reason Diglett is a good partner to Calm Mind Drifloon at all is because it helps to remove Toxic Spikes absorbers, which lets Drifloon can take advantage of Hex more easily on Toxic Spikes offense teams.


This isn't to say that Drifloon won't be viable - last gen, outside of the traits that got it banned, it was a great offensive spinblocker, an interesting utility check to some key sweepers, and single-handedly made Toxic Spikes offense a viable strategy. Though it may struggle with Analytic Ice Beam Staryu now, I don't see these positive traits disappearing otherwise. Before Recycle became a mainstay, Drifloon was considered one of the most interesting Pokemon to build with due to having just the right amount of versatility to be rewarding when played with well, but not overwhelmingly so. On the other hand, its banworthy traits have been thoroughly mitigated by the mechanical changes and metagame shifts of the new generation, so we're left with little to no drawbacks to allowing it. I think it's time we let Drifloon back into the tier.

tl;dr the reasoning behind Drifloon's ban no longer applies in gen 7, so Drifloon should be freed.


POSSIBLE DISCUSSION POINTS:
1. What is YOUR reasoning behind wanting Drifloon back in LC?
2. On a scale of 1 to 10, how excited are you for Drifloon being let back into LC, and why 10?
3. What was your favourite memory of Drifloon in gen 6? If you weren't around at the time, what do you most look forward to about Drifloon in gen 7? (If your answer is seeing Drifloon get banned, you don't have a soul)
The image at the top is godlike.
 
POSSIBLE DISCUSSION POINTS:
1. What is YOUR reasoning behind wanting Drifloon back in LC?
2. On a scale of 1 to 10, how excited are you for Drifloon being let back into LC, and why 10?
3. What was your favourite memory of Drifloon in gen 6? If you weren't around at the time, what do you most look forward to about Drifloon in gen 7? (If your answer is seeing Drifloon get banned, you don't have a soul)
1. Burn nerf and the fact that Vullaby and hail teams are more valid
2. 7.5, because I've never used it (I came too late in Gen 6 ;_;) and I want to take it for a spin. But other people will use it too.
3. Actually sweeping or getting major KOs with Hex.
 
Please no. Drifloon is still broken and cancerous. All the old arguments still apply. The burn nerf is not that significant in LC. Chip damage with burn was not an important part of what Drifloon did.

The LC council did an excellent thing by deciding to build on the well balanced ORAS meta by preserving old bans. Drifloon being unbanned would be a significant step backwards for this new meta.
 
Please no. Drifloon is still broken and cancerous. All the old arguments still apply. The burn nerf is not that significant in LC. Chip damage with burn was not an important part of what Drifloon did.

The LC council did an excellent thing by deciding to build on the well balanced ORAS meta by preserving old bans. Drifloon being unbanned would be a significant step backwards for this new meta.
I think it would only be fair if you read the posts of the community and council members above. Asserting your opinion as fact is not something that's going to get your point across, especially without backing it up and especially when that point has practically been proven incorrect in a previous post.

For reference, I've picked it out for you:

Levi's shitpost said:
Luckily for us, the burn nerf hit Acrofloon hard, since Recycle only has 16 PP. Now, 16 PP was more than enough back in ORAS, because Recycle + burn alone would be doing the equivalent of 32 HP damage against Pokemon with 23 or less HP, and a whopping 48 HP damage against bulkier Pokemon with 24 or more HP; this was doubled to 64 and 96 if the enemy wasn't strong enough to pressure Drifloon and prevent it from alternating between Substitute and Recycle. This allowed Drifloon to pose as a major threat to offensive and defensive teams alike.

After the nerf, Recycle + burn is doing 16 HP damage. Substitute + Recycle + Burn is doing 32 HP damage. Even against a weaker Pokemon where Drifloon manages to get Substitute up, it won't be outstalling more than one Pokemon. Against anything that hits Drifloon hard enough to deny it from getting extra stalling in through Substitute, it may not even be able to stall out a single Pokemon. It's also important that Drifloon's damage per turn has gone down drastically, especially against the defensive Pokemon that have 24+ HP and access to recovery - most Pokemon that can regenerate their health are now easily able to stall Drifloon out.
Basically what Levi is saying in 100 words is that Drifloon now loses to almost every Pokemon it stalled last generation that has access to recovery (Staryu, Vullaby, Spriztee, Slowpoke) because they need to use recover only one time instead of consistently. Many Pokemon aren't even outstalled without recovery and just a Berry Juice.
 
I think it would only be fair if you read the posts of the community and council members above. Asserting your opinion as fact is not something that's going to get your point across, especially without backing it up and especially when that point has practically been proven incorrect in a previous post.

For reference, I've picked it out for you:



Basically what Levi is saying in 100 words is that Drifloon now loses to almost every Pokemon it stalled last generation that has access to recovery (Staryu, Vullaby, Spriztee, Slowpoke) because they need to use recover only one time instead of consistently. Many Pokemon aren't even outstalled without recovery and just a Berry Juice.
I started to write out a long reply to this, but I realized part way through there's no point. This is essentially theorymoning. Talking in abstract about how the burn nerf affects its ability to 1v1 a handful of mons (which isn't an accurate representation of all it did in ORAS LC by the way...) ignores all the other contextual information in a battle anyways and as such won't even give an accurate representation of how it matches up against those mons in practice. It also ignores changes in the meta between gens, which I would argue have actually been very favorable to Drifloon.

If the council decides to suspect Drifloon I will be happy to prove to you that in practice, in actual battles, Drifloon is still just as broken as it always has been.
 

Altariel von Sweep

They Who Laugh Last
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
POSSIBLE DISCUSSION POINTS:
1. What is YOUR reasoning behind wanting Drifloon back in LC?
2. On a scale of 1 to 10, how excited are you for Drifloon being let back into LC, and why 10?
3. What was your favourite memory of Drifloon in gen 6? If you weren't around at the time, what do you most look forward to about Drifloon in gen 7? (If your answer is seeing Drifloon get banned, you don't have a soul)
1.-I think the burn nerf is the most important reason, as many Pokemon that have more than 24 HP + recovery, as you said, can easily stall it out.
2.-10. In late ORAS, I enjoy myself using it, but also to the point to start hating it in the opponent's team.
3.-Checking some threats like Pawniard by spamming Substitute + Recycle while it was burned, was a good memory of mine using this balloon.
 

fatty

is a Tiering Contributor
NUPL Champion
Yeah any talk of "Drifloon is obviously still broken" or "Drifloon is obviously balanced" is just theorymon right now lol. Neither side is right or wrong, we will have no idea how Drifloon will affect the metagame. I personally don't believe the burn will make Drifloon that much worse, but you could make an educated guess that it won't be as devastating as it was last gen. We will simply have to wait and see when it gets dropped.
 
Why not just suspect test Drifloon back into the metagame then? It doesn't hurt to get a vote for its return or continual ban does it?
Also, my criticisms about porygon and cutiefly being banned might be controversial, but I at least want to bring some attention to it.
My issues with Porygon being outright banned rather than simply banning conversion, a move that only Porygon can learn, it was banned. Does banning conversion as a move from LC affect literally anything at all besides the only pokemon capable of learning Conversion, Porygon? The only reason it was banned was because of Z conversion. Be honest. In ORAS, Porygon was not seen as broken nor banworthy. If you banned Conversion, again a move only Porygon can have, it would solve the problem of Z Conversion taking Porygon to the next level and then Porygon could easily just come back to the tier and be the pretty much the same thing it was in ORAS. I don't really see how banning a move that affects literally only one pokemon could be called unprecedented.

As far as Cutiefly goes, I feel that banning it outright might have been premature in a sense. In the same manner as Porygon, only Cutiefly is capable of learning Quiver Dance as an available pokemon to the LC metagame. The problem I saw with it and baton pass was the fact that it also passed along speed, which essentially removed a large number of checks and or counters from the recipient of that QD Pass. But in another sense, Cutiefly itself was impossible to check on offense after it got one speed boost, setting it at the same speed as +2 Shellder given Cutiefly was running max speed. So you know, only scarfed Diglett, Voltorb, Elekid, and anything hitting base 19 speed with the boost of a scarf could keep up with it. If you ban quiver dance as a move from LC, again a move that would only have an impact on Cutiefly because there is no other pokemon available to LC that could learn Quiver Dance, then you actually take away a huge aspect of why cutiefly was so difficult to stop. You can argue that it was actually baton pass, but honestly, it wasn't. Think about it like this. My cutiefly baton passes a calm mind boost or two (no extra speed) to something like Staryu. Okay then, that might be really difficult to handle. But then you also have to think about what that might mean for the metagame. How easily could Cutiefly do this if it wasn't continually getting faster? Let's take a minute to think about it. Again, scarfed pokemon would be good checks. Abra. Diglett outspeeding and doing hell with rock slide. The previous answers to Cutiefly which took the form of phazers and very specially bulky monsters. Pawniard would actually be able to hold its own against the damn thing if it didn't have quiver dance. If it could only use Calm Mind to boost its stats rather than using quiver dance, it wouldn't be anywhere near as broken as it was. For comparison, look at how influencial Diglett, Pawniard, Fletchling, and Mienfoo were during the entire duration of ORAS LC. All four of those pokemon mentioned in the previous sentence were regarded as metagame definers. Some more and some less than others. Fletchling wasn't even S rank, but its influence was still very large because of what it could do. It pretty much made people have some answer for it on their team. Same with Pawniard. Mienfoo practically dominated the metagame because it was just so useful and splashable in general. It honestly hasn't changed very much either. Diglett being the whack-a-mole pokemon it is influenced a lot of the metagame by just being a trapper and the fastest unboosted pokemon in LC besides Elekid and Voltorb (like anyone actually used Voltorb though.) If you simply banned quiver dance as a move, I repeat once more: Quiver Dance in LC is a move that solely Cutiefly has access to, then it would more than likely just become one of those metagame defining pokemon. And then if you think about suspect testing some of the older LC-Ubers, such as Drifloon or Misdreavus to see if they could return back to LC, then Cutiefly would have potentially more answers. If you disagree, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion just as I am to my own. But I am only suggesting that there are other things that could have been done rather than just outright eliminating pokemon from use just because of a move that caused them to be so unhealthy towards the metagame. I agree with not banning baton pass entirely as well. Baton Pass isn't overpowered nor unhealthy for LC imo.

Vullaby is another disgusting creature that I'd like to point out. After Porygon and Cutiefly were banned outright, this diaper-wearing vulture ascended into a plain I'd like to call potentially over centralising the metagame. I'm not certain that Vullaby is actually over centralising, but I absolutely cannot say there is not potential or evidence that it might be doing so. Vullaby in ORAS was already a pretty solid pokemon, and with the buff to weak armor for Sun and Moon... Well, Vullaby got a new ridiculous set that only adds to its arsenal of viability. I stated a lot of this in the viability rankings (thank you again Merritt for pointing me out in the right direction). Vullaby is inarguably a unique pokemon let alone a really good pokemon. Vullaby is able to pull off a rather surprising amount of viable sets. Roost+3 attacks, NP Weak Armor, Bulky Defog, Offensive Defog, U-turn Bulky Pivot, and even hybrid sets of the aforementioned as well as mixed offensive sets. Vullaby has good bulk. Vullaby has access to knock off, u-turn, and a useful plethora of coverage moves. In fact, having an answer to vullaby now is more important than you might imagine. But the hardest matter of fact is that Vullaby has more than just the NP sweeping set. Vullaby can't simply be dealt with in the same fashion if it runs a set that isn't NP+weak armor. If you counter a vullaby predicting a nasty plot by going to your munchlax and get a strong knock off to the face, well you just accidentally sacked Munchlax essentially. Timburr is not necessarily a great answer to Vullaby, as mach punch even at -1 eviolite (which is basically no boost) does not get the job done unless Vullaby is below half. Make that well below half. Drain Punch into Mach Punch doesn't do the trick either unless Timburr is already sitting there with a bulk up.

116 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. -1 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 6-7 (24 - 28%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
+1 116 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. -1 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
240+ SpA Vullaby Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
116 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. -1 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO (oh wait, that's at -1 Def on vullaby)
116 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO

Yeah, just no. Give it more speed, what could go wrong? Also, if it's a physical variant, Timburr isn't touching it unless it has a few bulk ups under its belt because it doesn't appreciate a brave bird at all. In addition, vullaby can pivot via U-turn, which is invaluable to most pokemon who learn a pivoting move in the first place. It only benefits Vullaby in being able to pivot. In addition to all of this, Vullaby has a very customizable EV spread, which can honestly give it some surprise factor for various matchups. So why do I say Vullaby might potentially be over-centralising the LC tier? I say this because I have seen it in a ton of teams and nobody can deny the impact being able to answer Vullaby has during the team building phases of the game.

Yeah, sure, you can build a team which handles any variant of Vullaby well. But how well does that team do against ones without vullaby or with another large threat that isn't vullaby, such as Shellder? Regardless, the main issue I have is that whenever you have a team that does not handle Vullaby well, no matter how fantastically composed, said team isn't really considered viable, just due to Vullaby existing. Vullaby forces teams to run answers, which could be the wrong answers depending on its set. Grimer-A is a solid answer to the NP variant. But Grimer-A pretty much gives away momentum to other variants or takes unnecessary damage and or loses its item. In the same regard, scarfed pokemon that can easily check the non-NP variants have serious issues with the NP set. Pawniard is an excellent example of a mon that can handle non-NP variants but only helps the weak armor sweeping variants. Dealing with Vullaby isn't as simple as running a faster check anymore just because Vullaby is easily bulky enough to switch directly into a physical hit to gain speed, then set up in front of something or force a swap and set up during that turn. I'm not at all saying that Vullaby is broken. I'm just saying that it could be potentially over-centralising the LC metagame.

I also feel as though another thing that we should be thinking about is again, possibly suspecting some of our previous bans from the past to see if they are no longer going to be unhealthy for the LC metagame. Rather than just sending something from the LC banlist directly back into LC, I believe that having a suspect test would not be a bad idea. It would allow people to vote on what they want and it could help us all decide whether or not we could welcome back a few of those guys that got banned. Misdreavus and Drifloon are easily the best examples. Additionally, I think that having a suspect test for the suggested banning of quiver dance and or conversion for Cutiefly and Porygon respectively would also achieve the same goal so as not to prematurely jump into an issue by accident. Regardless, all that is just my opinion. Take it or leave it.
 

fatty

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NUPL Champion
We made the decisions we made because whether you like it or not, smogon policy has traditionally been to ban the Pokemon before anything else. We've literally done this for generations lol. Gale wings wasn't suspected over Fletchling, Huge Power over Meditite, Nasty Plot for Misdreavus. The list goes on and on, even for other tiers. I know it might seem simple to you, Complicating (ironic name), but trust me it is not and hours were spent on council chat debating this very topic

Also you guys complain as much as you want, but the fact is decisions have been made, and although I may not agree with all of them (I believe BP should of been suspected), I stand by the councils ability to sort issues out and do what's best for the tier.
 
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I started to write out a long reply to this, but I realized part way through there's no point. This is essentially theorymoning. Talking in abstract about how the burn nerf affects its ability to 1v1 a handful of mons (which isn't an accurate representation of all it did in ORAS LC by the way...) ignores all the other contextual information in a battle anyways and as such won't even give an accurate representation of how it matches up against those mons in practice. It also ignores changes in the meta between gens, which I would argue have actually been very favorable to Drifloon.

If the council decides to suspect Drifloon I will be happy to prove to you that in practice, in actual battles, Drifloon is still just as broken as it always has been.



Also, your logic is hypocritical. We're the ones wanting to test it, based on theory which is backed by new, hard fact-based evidence. It's a fact that burn damage is halved. It's a fact that Floon cannot stall as easily because it needs twice the amount of turns to do the same damage. It's a fact that Staryu has access to analytic which OHKOes with Thunderbolt and some investment. These facts are where our theory that Drifloon is perhaps no longer broken come from. We are wanting to test that theory. You actually want to keep it banned based strictly on theorymon without a test.

Complicating: For once I agree with fatty that the policy we have set out is to ban the Pokemon instead of the move. If you're wondering how that came to be, there's lots of posts in this thread as well as in the policy review forum explaining. I personally agree with you that we should have banned those two moves instead but that isn't the policy we set out. And yes, Vullaby is definitely on our radar.
 



Also, your logic is hypocritical. We're the ones wanting to test it, based on theory which is backed by new, hard fact-based evidence. It's a fact that burn damage is halved. It's a fact that Floon cannot stall as easily because it needs twice the amount of turns to do the same damage. It's a fact that Staryu has access to analytic which OHKOes with Thunderbolt and some investment. These facts are where our theory that Drifloon is perhaps no longer broken come from. We are wanting to test that theory. You actually want to keep it banned based strictly on theorymon without a test.

Actually, my comment was just a gut reaction to the idea of Drifloon coming back. I'm not opposed to a suspect test. The community realized it was broken the last time it was suspected, after all.

Also, sure, if there's a suspect test I'd be happy to demonstrate Drifloon is broken first hand if you want.
 

Merritt

no comment
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Rowan

The professor?
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I'm excited about this. I said to apt-get a couple of weeks ago that I feel Gothita has hampered creativity in LC. Not necessarily because it restricts teambuilding, but because it's so easy to put on a team if you want certain things gone. If your sweeper wants to get rid of Foongus, or Ferroseed, or Timburr, or Croagunk gone, you can just slap Gothita on a team and call it a day. Now, lures are going to be more key, which requires innovation!

So what cool lures have people for Pokemon that Gothita used to trap? (or just lures in general)

Me and apt-get, made a team with z-bounce Aipom which was really cool for catching fighting-types and Foongus off guard, paired with Scraggy which can struggle against them. Due to aipom's wide movepool it can run a lot of interesting z-moves as lures, and if you want a Mudbray lure, try z-SeedBomb, which will 2HKO alongside Knock Off even with Stamina.
 

Ray Jay

"Jump first, ask questions later, oui oui!"
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From Corporal Levi
On the other hand, CM Gothita is different from everything else we have in LC because it can directly switch into a large portion of its victims; if a set is weak to CM Gothita, there isn't much you can do about it except change the set. I was pretty adamantly anti-Gothita ban at the start of the generation, but after discussing it with some people and seeing the adaptions the metagame has been forced to make, I'm a lot less sure... due to the huge disadvantages that come with being weak to CM Gothita, i.e. no longer fulfilling a defensive niche, otherwise mediocre options like Skill Swap Spritzee and Payback Foongus become mandatory. Sets like non-Sucker Punch Croagunk see a much more drastic shift in viability from being vulnerable to CM Gothita than they would from being weak to Vullaby or Diglett.
From Heysup
Consider this situation, you have a Croagunk, they have a Carvahna and Goth. You are now in a ridiculous scenario. You either Vacuum Wave and hope they stay in or you double switch. If you double switch to a non-Pursuiter, you are now 50/50 to die most likely (carvanha will probably 2hko most Pokemon), then you also can't even double switch back since you're trapped. Even if you have hazards up and somehow get Gothita in range of an SBomb or Knock Off KO, eventually all they need to do is sacrifice something to your Croagunk that isn't Carvahna. Like being able to trap almost every special attacker is ridiculous in its own right, but this extra shit like Fighting-types is crazy. I swear if i see one more HP Poison Goth......
My question is a simple one: What is good creativity in Pokemon?

Because here's the thing: Skill Swap Spritzee and Payback Foongus and HP Poison Gothita fundamentally, are creative.

Simultaneously, nearly every vote that had a write up mentioned Gothita as restricting creativity in principle ("it restricts team building," "it strangles diversity," "it warps the meta," to name a few).

So what's good creativity?
 

Berks

has a Calm Mind
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From Corporal Levi


From Heysup


My question is a simple one: What is good creativity in Pokemon?

Because here's the thing: Skill Swap Spritzee and Payback Foongus and HP Poison Gothita fundamentally, are creative.

Simultaneously, nearly every vote that had a write up mentioned Gothita as restricting creativity in principle ("it restricts team building," "it strangles diversity," "it warps the meta," to name a few).

So what's good creativity?
I would say that good creativity is unnecessary creativity. Basically, if otherwise good Pokemon are required to run fringe options in order to maintain viability, that is stifling positive creativity. Aipom running Z-Bounce (which sounds awesome btw) is positive creativity, because if the lure doesn't work or if Aipom doesn't use it, Aipom can still do regular Aipom things. On the other hand, Skill Swap Spritzee or Pursuit Foongus is necessary creativity (a bit of an oxymoron imo) because if they don't use their respective moves to get around Goth, they become completely useless. Therefore, Gothita forced a lot of Pokemon to use certain fringe options in order to even function; this is a restriction on teambuilding, and this is why it was banned.
 

NabboCheTesta

Gniubbo come sempre
From Corporal Levi


From Heysup


My question is a simple one: What is good creativity in Pokemon?

Because here's the thing: Skill Swap Spritzee and Payback Foongus and HP Poison Gothita fundamentally, are creative.

Simultaneously, nearly every vote that had a write up mentioned Gothita as restricting creativity in principle ("it restricts team building," "it strangles diversity," "it warps the meta," to name a few).

So what's good creativity?
I'll give you my own answer: to me, gothita and all the things that are overcentralizing restrict creativity in a very simple way: they give less alternatives. Payback Foonguss is creative, don't get me wrong, but with goth around, it becomes the one and only foonguss set, while without said overcentralizing threat, you can modify that foonguss and maybe find something new and cool to do with it, without something being then the "one and only" alternative.

greninja'd by mere seconds.
 

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