np: Doubles OU Stage 4 - Infamous | Jirachi (Stays in DOU) | Swagger is Banned

[Stratos]

ban swagger holyf uck

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

 

[Nollan]

While I don't really expect anyone to agree with it at this point, I would just like to establish why I feel still allowing Jirachi without Follow Me is important. Contrary to popular belief, I think Jirachi would STILL be a solid mon without Follow Me. It still gets other support options in things like Helping Hand, Icy Wind/Thunder Wave/Trick Room, Screens, and even Skill Swap. I also has offensive options which due to the extreme nature of Follow Me aren't even being used right now. Scarf sets could potentially be a thing with U-turn, it actually gets Moonblast and Play Rough through events to hit Dark-types, and it also has the elemental punches. The fact it can go special-side for attacking would distinguish it a lot from Mega Metagross imo. Don't get me wrong, people are right to say it won't be nearly as good as before, but I think having a mon that is fairly unique remain in the meta albeit without its "broken" attribute is reasonable, and I wouldn't consider Jirachi without Follow Me to be trash at all.

I would also like to establish that while I agree Jirachi + Azumarill wouldn't really be replaceable, the problems with Azumarill could (and imho would) remain though with them being more manageable, which is my only concern in this area. Other than that I can understand most people's point of view on the pair.

I will say if it truly has to be Follow Me Jirachi or no Jirachi, I would lean towards banning after some thought on this subject (if my previous post seemed biased towards either side blame it on my bad abilities in English since I was trying to be neutral about it). I don't feel there is much to say about this reasoning as the majority seems to agree with it anyway, so that's more or less it.

#backtonaturalgiftshenanigans

 

[CorruptedOmega]

While I don't really expect anyone to agree with it at this point, I would just like to establish why I feel still allowing Jirachi without Follow Me is important. Contrary to popular belief, I think Jirachi would STILL be a solid mon without Follow Me. It still gets other support options in things like Helping Hand, Icy Wind/Thunder Wave/Trick Room, Screens, and even Skill Swap. I also has offensive options which due to the extreme nature of Follow Me aren't even being used right now. Scarf sets could potentially be a thing with U-turn, it actually gets Moonblast and Play Rough through events to hit Dark-types, and it also has the elemental punches. The fact it can go special-side for attacking would distinguish it a lot from Mega Metagross imo. Don't get me wrong, people are right to say it won't be nearly as good as before, but I think having a mon that is fairly unique remain in the meta albeit without its "broken" attribute is reasonable, and I wouldn't consider Jirachi without Follow Me to be trash at all.

If there is a mon that is broken due to a particular set, we ban that mon entirely. Period. Even though physical Skymin may not be broken in the doubles metagame, we banned Skymin because its other sets are broken/ban worthy. This has been an essential part of Smogon's banning philosophy since forever, so nonsense like this shouldn't be discussed.

Sorry to come of as harsh, I've just seen the same thing come up in multiple different threads and it needs to stop.

 

[BlueSkiddo]

While I don't really expect anyone to agree with it at this point, I would just like to establish why I feel still allowing Jirachi without Follow Me is important. Contrary to popular belief, I think Jirachi would STILL be a solid mon without Follow Me. It still gets other support options in things like Helping Hand, Icy Wind/Thunder Wave/Trick Room, Screens, and even Skill Swap. I also has offensive options which due to the extreme nature of Follow Me aren't even being used right now. Scarf sets could potentially be a thing with U-turn, it actually gets Moonblast and Play Rough through events to hit Dark-types, and it also has the elemental punches. The fact it can go special-side for attacking would distinguish it a lot from Mega Metagross imo. Don't get me wrong, people are right to say it won't be nearly as good as before, but I think having a mon that is fairly unique remain in the meta albeit without its "broken" attribute is reasonable, and I wouldn't consider Jirachi without Follow Me to be trash at all.

If jirachi didnt have follow me, it would be cresselia with a chance to flinch. A momentum hole with occasional help through hax or speed control. Still a niche, but not a viable one.

 

[Bughouse]

A random thought:

The best way to beat redirection strategies is to take out the Pokemon that is doing the redirection with your fastest Pokemon (or in TR the slowest one) that is active on the field.

This is actually quite difficult to do when it comes to Jirachi. The Pokemon in tiers 1 and 2 that are the most likely to do large amounts of damage (ie like 70%+ note I didn't actually calc these... this is just my recollection) to Jirachi are the following:

Aegislash, Mega Char Y, Heatran, Lando-T, Talonflame, Gengar, Hoopa-U, Hydreigon, Volcanion, Bisharp, Mega Gengar, Infernape, Lando-I, Rotom-H, Scrafty, Volcarona, Mega Char X, Kingdra (in Rain)

Now let's compare this to the other offensive mons in tiers 1 and 2:

Mega Diancie, Mega Gard, Mega Kanga, Thundurus, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, Latios, Rotom-W, Azumarill, Breloom, Mega Metagross, Salamence, Sylveon, Terrakion, Deoxys-A, Ludicolo (in Rain)

So what's the problem here? Well, the second list is in general way faster than the first list... Jirachi generally is pretty good at forcing wasted turns where faster mons get redirected while slower mons do the KO second.

 

[Hashtag]

hey i just want to get it in writing what the threshold percentage of ban/no ban is because last time it changed literally at the last minute and it was quite disgraceful.

(should be 60% ban)

 

[kamikaze]

hey i just want to get it in writing what the threshold percentage of ban/no ban is because last time it changed literally at the last minute and it was quite disgraceful.

(should be 60% ban)

yes its 60%

 

[Checkmater]

Jirachi... Jirachi... Jirachi...

Yeah I'm pretty much voting no ban because I feel there isn't a valid argument as to Jirachi being overly powerful or too good. It's clearly held back by its weaks (4 very relevant weaks, 4/4.5 relevant resists) while also having jack shit for offense by itself and tr set is neato but garbage-tier because it loses to common TR checks too hard and is too weak. When building Jirachi you have to be careful to make your team not too passive (realistically, Jirachi should be your only "support" mon, can't also have stuff like Suicune, Zapdos, Amoonguss...). Redirectors by nature are held back immensely by the fact that they have 2 attackers, you effectively have 1, you better have typing adv. or your partner better be some powerful spread attacker/single target murderer for you to get away with that. Unlike Amoonguss there's no fear of Spore leading to mindgames on Protect, but there is speed control.

I'd also caution against trying to predict what the meta would be like without Jirachi. If you go back to the Skymin discussions, there are some inklings that bunnies might become much stronger but there's almost zil about stuff like Talon becoming better, Jirachi becoming better, Gardevoir moving to tier 1 level, etc. It's faulty to say "Jirachi beats Diancie, with Jirachi gone then Diancie will become better" but instead if we try to predict what the meta will look like we should use a more framework-based perspective, asking questions such as "What does Jirachi provide to teams", "How does Jirachi effect teambuilding", "If I replace Jirachi with a Steel, how is the team changed", and "What works well with Jirachi"

For example, post-skymin I was chatting with Pwne about this and I said "Ok so I think Talon became good because of all the grasses, Skymin had the best Talonflame matchup" which is true.
Inclusion of Volcanion: "Ok so it's not like Char Y enjoys seeing Volcanion but it hates Talonflame and Heatran so much as sun checks that if an opp has Volcanion it means they're not running these 2 threats, so Volcanion teams often end up looking Sun-weak" (paraphrasing)

And at the end of the day I can't really think of any threats that hate seeing Jirachi but love dealing with the other steels. Perhaps we can say that offensive threats that get walled by Jirachi (thinking Latios, Metagross) will be stronger, or that Kangaskhan will do much better, but other than that it's difficult to predict a no-Jirachi meta. I could see steels as a whole being brought down a lot (other steels are notable for all beating Jirachi) or something like that, idk.

Also for what it's worth I feel Azumarill isn't ban worthy, it's only guaranteed to thrive if the opp runs too many Azu-setup bait (hydreigon, keld, volcanion, Heatran, LandoT) or threats that fail to touch Azumarill and threaten it.

Seriously HO isn't even that good atm since Semiroom is the shit atm but banning Jirachi --> HO is kill forever.

FREE SKYMIN o// AND VOTE NO JIRACHI BAN o//

also where is voting thread

 

[kamikaze]

SUSPECT VOTING THREAD

Voting thread is up and linked above. Posting privileges may take a little time to process.
If your name is on the list but you dont have posting privileges in this forum by tomorrow, just shoot me a PM and I'll have you added.

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[Platinum God n1n1]

I will be voting NO

reasons:
I like using jirachi sometimes
I have never felt like its too much to handle, no matter what its next to

banning this mon would really negatively affect doubles ou
to redirection is like cool part of doubles as compared to singles. Jirachi is already kind of bad at handling redirection because of its bad typing especially being weak to common spread moves like Heatwave and Earthquake. But the other follow me users who you can put safety goggles on are so much worse that it makes jirachi seem better than it really is.

so removing jirachi really only leaves you with amoonguss as a viable redirect and consequently makes amoonguss more viable with jirachi gone. I am predicting now that if jirachi is banned the same people who voted band will be asking for amoonguss suspect

also I dont feel like flinches are an issue considering that it tends to not run much speed. so most of my mons like heatran and lando are not worried about that flinch

 

[Akaru Kokuyo]

My vote is NO Ban

Literally, only reason I have is because i like to use it xD. Since I´m no expert on the meta, cant really put a decent reason, so yeah xd

 

[kamikaze]

You should be posting your vote on that thread I linked. Not here.

Also do not be opposed to use the Abstain option if you dont have a proper opinion on Jirachi. It will still count for TC

 

[GRAND EMPRESS]

ban swagger holyf uck

Ban Swagger and #FreeMence!!!

 

[Test Bot #]

Ban Swagger and #FreeMence!!!

ban swagger And #freemence

 

[Elegyy]

Jirachi is really REALLY healthy (unless you're clius) to the meta, but Azu Rachi is just a disaster to this game. I dont think I'll be voting no ban, but I'm on the borderline of abstain and ban

 

[Dawg]

I will be voting NO

reasons:
I like using jirachi sometimes

Congrats on wasting time getting reqs, Writing a post, and voting, for people to now know for sure that you have the metagame insight of a gate post.

 

[Level 51]

I'd like to echo kamikaze's post. We're out to create a balanced format, so if you have valid reasons as to why banning or not banning Jirachi would help towards this goal, feel free to vote that way. However, if you are merely voting to rack up numbers towards TC or are not adequately informed about the state of the format, please do consider using the Abstain option - it exists for a reason. There's no need to ruin a perfectly good suspect test for reasons such as 'I enjoy using Jirachi xd'.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

Gonna start by saying I have no strong feelings about Jirachi decision either way hence my absolute lack of effort to vote. It's also very late and I'm bored so

I will be voting NO

reasons:
I like using jirachi sometimes
I have never felt like its too much to handle, no matter what its next to

banning this mon would really negatively affect doubles ou
to redirection is like cool part of doubles as compared to singles. Jirachi is already kind of bad at handling redirection because of its bad typing especially being weak to common spread moves like Heatwave and Earthquake. But the other follow me users who you can put safety goggles on are so much worse that it makes jirachi seem better than it really is.

so removing jirachi really only leaves you with amoonguss as a viable redirect and consequently makes amoonguss more viable with jirachi gone. I am predicting now that if jirachi is banned the same people who voted band will be asking for amoonguss suspect

also I dont feel like flinches are an issue considering that it tends to not run much speed. so most of my mons like heatran and lando are not worried about that flinch

My vote is NO Ban

Literally, only reason I have is because i like to use it xD. Since I´m no expert on the meta, cant really put a decent reason, so yeah xd

Are these for real lol? There should be a de facto policy (only because being unwritten allows us to catch users that do this) where people dumb enough to actually admit their sole reason for vote decision is based on "i liek to use dis mon lawl" have their "contributions" ignored. You can seriously just be like "voting no ban" and at least appear to have justified reasoning, this is ridiculous.

FREE SKYMIN o// AND VOTE NO JIRACHI BAN o//

ayy lmao lets unban Arceus while we're at it I hear Rockceus does a good job against Talonflame and is countered by Jirachi

Dude forreal can we stop focusing on Skymin? Any benefits it offers is greatly greatly greatly outshone by its cancerous presence, let's move on from that.

 

[Braverius]

I guess, simply put, BD Azumarill becomes something teams need to put way too much effort into preparing when it's alongside Jirachi. It becomes a "can my team deploy 3-4 Pokemon to stop it in the event it gets going" rather than "can I shut it down effectively" since teching crap like Sludge Wave or Discharge onto a team is too compromising in other areas. It's too much to prepare for while keeping an otherwise generally balanced metagame.

I also think that coming from playing somewhat a similar format in VGC last year, it's really the main culprit and not Belly Drum. If you step back and look at it from the big picture, a Steel-type with Follow Me and Serene Grace + flinch move is really ridiculous. And not to mention it's basically a 'support Greninja' in that it can have 7-8 viable support moves and in a single-game scenario when you don't get three games to scout it out and plan accordingly, that's incredibly hard to play against coupled with its other strong suits.

I voted to ban based on a metagame health issue rather than a broken Pokemon issue though--on its own Jirachi isn't the worst ever, but its ability in conjunction with a few other Pokemon makes it really really powerful, which maybe is the reason it took this long to suspect to begin with. I honestly think this ban would be more important than some of the other ones we've seen (for example, Jirachi probably fucked over its accomplice, Mega Salamence) and I think at the end of the day it's a good idea to play a format without Jirachi, at least for a while. It feels like all signs point to it being the culprit of a lot of DOU's issues and I'd like to finally see if it really is.

 

[kamikaze]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-dou-stage-4-suspect-voting.3575252/page-5#post-6862732

Jirachi will remain in Doubles OU

 

[Dawg]

Suggesting Zekrom is suspected next in doubles ou to check the "OMG OP BDRUM AZUMARILL", It is weak to common spread move earthquake, therefore easily beaten - which seems to be enough for Jirachi to be kept in many people's minds.

fwiw, I don't care at all what your vote was, but how you justify it.

 

[Level 51]

Okay great, now can we re-retest Salamence? Nothing has changed since the last time it was in the format, but with all these new people of whom I have never heard before voting on the fate of a format they're not even remotely involved in, maybe we'll get a different result! Better yet, re-test Jirachi immediately in the hopes that everyone's flipped coin will land the other way!

 

[emma]

Yeah it's kinda dumb that some voters know nothing about DOU and have played maybe 3 Jirachi in their life. S/O to that one guy who used the abstain option and explained that he wasn't informed enough

 

[p2]

why was the requirement for at least a paragraph to show some level of meta understanding and competence removed? it seemed to be fairly effective the last couple of suspect tests, and it helped filter out people that don't give a shit about the tier.