Metagame NP: RU Stage 17: Try Again / Do It Again (Shaymin and Slurpuff banned, Tangrowth up to OU)

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zbr

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I think the Toxic argument could apply to Alomomola, except trading heavy hitting for reliable recovery and Regenerator. Thus, I don't think "it can beat things that are supposed to beat it with Toxic" isn't a great argument because it applies to anything that carries toxic.
not true in this case. lets say you're 1v1ing alomomola with tangy. even if tangy is toxic'd by alo, the heal beller in this scenario can still come in (granbull, clefairy(?!), togetic) and safely heal bell up and now tangy can still tackle alo 1v1. however in the case of lix, it can not only cripple the switch in but also has means of completely breaking the heal beller such that the opp has one of two choices; 1. wait for later turn and make it harder to switch in out the statused check to mlix or 2. sack the heal beller for the check that will most likely be crippled again.

the momentum is constantly in the hands of the mlix wielding toxic compared to other toxic users. and for argument's sake, resttalk mlix is not exactly unseen in the metagame and it actually completely denies whatever effort you attempt to status it / break it. the reason why we are constantly saying "it can beat things that are supposed to beat it with Toxic" is because it's overall effectiveness in the match does not decrease even if there were backups to prevent the status. alo can literally fish (hah) for scald burns and attempt to toxic the foe but it cannot offensively threaten their backup net of heal bell users because of it's lack of strong offensive presence. something that mlix is capable of actively doing irregardless of whichever set it chooses to run.
 
Also, another thing to consider is there's opportunity cost to using Toxic on Alomomola. Alomomola has to give up Knock Off in order to use Toxic, which is really nice for a lot of Pokemon, like Venusaur, Hoopa, Meloetta, and pretty much anything that wants to come in and pressure Alomomola. Meanwhile, with Mega Steelix, there's significantly less opportunity cost, as there's not much else Mega Steelix wants to use. I feel as if Mega Steelix in general is way too low opportunity cost, which is what makes it so overcentralizing.
 
Why am I the last to know everything around here?

Mega Steelix is absurdly bulky and puts way too much stress on teambuilding imo. Only the strongest wallbreakers in RU can manage to even dent it, making way too hard to take down. To make matters worse, it's immune to Toxic (preventing it from being stalled out) and Thunder Wave (preventing it from being reliably paralyzed). But the icing on the cake is how it can hold its own offensively. You do not want to take a STAB Heavy Slam from this thing, trust me. Sure it has its flaws, such as a "meh" Special Defense stat, but it's still so fucking overcentralizing that your team NEEDS to carry a Steel-type check just to beat this guy. I'd be voting ban ASAP, but I suck at suspect testing so I won't get reqs.

Will post about Tyrantrum later. Also, I realized both these guys are Cinccino checks... does this mean if both of them are banned, Cinccino will be good again?
 
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Choice Band Tyrantrum seems like a "battering ram" that is used to punch holes in the opposing team (because it hits so hard). One of the only Tyrantrum hard checks in Mega Steelix (along with tough physical walls such as Alomomola). Tyrantrum will be banned if Mega Steelix is banned since one of the greatest checks for Tyrantrum is now gone. Choice Scarf Tyrantrum is also a viable option if Tyrantrum is to be used as a sweeper. However, I'm on the fence on banning Tyrantrum.

If and when lower ladder stops using Ambipom/Cincinno, they will be good again... in NU. NU is good for normal spam (think Tauros being the only S rank in NU), so Ambipom and Cincinno may go as high as A or A+. However, RU is a very unkind metagame for physical Normal types due to the proliferation of physical walls (as well as Mega Steelix/Tyrantrum). Some of these walls will stay after the Mega Steelix/Tyrantrum suspect test, so the D rank pokemon will probably not rise.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
Hello, before the suspect ladder goes up I suspect people will be building teams for the no ttrum/mlix ladder. So if you are struggling to think of ideas to build around take in the ones I'm about to suggest.

Fletchibder HO - So two of Fletchinder main answers won't be present and the main killer to HO won't also be around. Fletch has a real chance to shine especially with all of the powerful fighting types around like Sawk and Medicham.

Choice Banded Rhyperior/Aggron - Need a nuclear Rock STAB to fill the void that CB Tyrantrum left? These two fill fill that role somewhat decently. Both have a nice secondary STAB in Earthquake and Heavy Slam respectively and can opt for Ice Punch to hit Flygon, one of the best rock resist at the moment.

Abomasnow - Life Orb Abomasnow is a fucking monster. Now this doesn't get any better or any worse in terms of not having either of the suspects around (could be arguably worse with a rise in Registeel usage to fill that MLix gap but then again Rhyperior should also be getting more usage.) Snow tears down teams quickly due to the the high powered Blizzards. It also packs on hell of an Ice Shard. Not to mention your Focus Sashes won't save you from this tyrant.

I'll give you guys some cores I have been using a lot to so you have an idea for a base.

Ebelt / CB Emboar + Healing Wish Mesprit
Sawk (other fighting-types work but sawk just loves hazard removal) + Fletchinder + Blastoise
CB Rhyperior / Aggron + CM Virizion
Abomasnow + CM Slowing + Flygon (for hazards)
 

EonX

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Piggybacking off of Take Azelfie's innitiative some, I want to delve into a few Pokemon who stand to gain A LOT (in theory) from no mega lix + ttrum:



When people think of Aggron, there's two Pokemon that come to mind as to why it's so innefective currently: Mega Steelix and Tyrantrum. Without these two around, Aggron not only loses its main source of competition as a Head Smash user, but also its greatest counter in Mega Steelix. With a simple set of Head Smash, Heavy Slam, Low Kick, and Ice Punch, Aggron can 2HKO nearly every Pokemon in the tier with the proper move and a Choice Band equipped. It also is quite the sturdy check to Fletchinder thanks to that amazing Defense, but it is advised to pack a cleric if you need Aggron to check Fletch bc burns suck. There's also the interesting prospect of a Custap Stealth Rock lead with SR, Head Smash, Metal Burst, and Endeavor with Sturdy as the ability. While this definitely has much less potential, it's at least intriguing to think about for offensive teams since Aggron can get Rocks up and possibly get a KO due to Custap always activating thanks to Sturdy. Definitely can't wait to see how Aggron does with its biggest competition and counter banned for this ladder.



As it stands right now, Escavalier is held back extremely badly by Mega Steelix since the iron sake resists both STABs and doesn't even care much for Knock Off. It's also one of the very few Steel-types in the tier that don't resist Head Smash, which makes it a bit harder to teambuild considering Tyrantrum is such a massive threat. A Choice Band set of Megahorn, Iron Head, Pursuit, and Knock Off / Drill Run seems like a great way to go with Escavalier to capitalize on its ability to handle most Psychic-types in RU sans Sigilyph and that base 135 Attack does a great job of backing up its strong STAB options and Pursuit. The choice between Knock and Drill Run will largely come down to how much Escavalier's team is bothered by Registeel, but I feel Knock Off will be better just due to how spammable it is.



*inserts obligatory Druddigon is the truly broken mon joke*. It's been a while since we've considered Druddigon a fearsome offensive threat, but we may be close to those days returning if Tyrantrum does indeed get the boot. For a long time now, Druddigon has been relegated to a more defensive role, pulling its best impersonation of Garchomp from OU with a supportive Stealth Rock set that centers around Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet. While that set certainly gets better without Mega Steelix around, Druddigon's Life Orb set has a chance to become a real threat once more with Tyrantrum gone. Outrage / Dragon Claw, Fire Punch, Sucker Punch, and Iron Tail is quite the dangerous set backed by Sheer Force and it sits on the upper end of that base 30 - 50 Speed range at base 48. Some may wonder why Iron Tail over Gunk Shot, but Diancie is primed to be one of the premier defensive Pokemon in the tier, and as a Dragon-type, Druddigon will want to get past it.
 

MANNAT

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oof

When ur wifi dies at the worst possible time.

Now moving on to talking about the suspect ladder since it's up now. I believe that fletchinder is going to be really good on this ladder since two of its most common checks have been removed from the tier, and people will probably make the mistake of using mola as a fletch counter on defensive teams, paving the way for a world of pain. Additionally, banded aggron becomes really good and fairies like aromatisse and granbull become a bit better without lix
 

Punchshroom

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To continue off of EonX's post about mons to theoretically gain a lot from TRex and MLix's absence:



No this is not a joke; I genuinely believe Cinccino has a chance to shine in this meta again (well, back since Froslass and Moltres meta anyway). The Grass coverage is what particularly lets Cinccino stand out amongst the notoriously shitty physical Normal-types in RU, as many people would most likely transition to the likes of Rhyperior, Seismitoad, and Diancie as bulky Stealth Rock setters with an inkling of offensive presence (aka not Registeel). Bullet Seed also allows it to at least pressure Alomomola as well as dent Jellicent and Colbur Berry Slowking, so oddly enough, Cinccino is now more competent at pressuring walls than most of its physically offensive Normal-type brethren. Its Speed tier and power remain respectable too, as Choice Band Tail Slap can OHKO the likes of Virizion and Flygon, which aren't exactly frail for offensive Pokemon either. Meanwhile, Knock Off can annoy the existing Steel-types much more than it did against Mega Steelix, so it becomes a decent anti-Steel weapon for Cinccino.

Cinccino @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Bullet Seed
- Knock Off
- U-turn / Rock Blast
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Flygon: 300-360 (99.6 - 119.6%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Virizion: 330-390 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 215-260 (52 - 62.9%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 210-245 (51.9 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 405-480 (93.5 - 110.8%) -- approx. 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 85-105 (19.6 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 350-430 (80.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 230-280 (75.6 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 275-325 (68.2 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 280-340 (71.2 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 210-255 (53.4 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 245-300 (62.3 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Spiritomb: 160-190 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While Cinccino by no means becomes a stellar mon, at least it can't be considered gutter trash anymore.

By which I mean yes, Ambipom is still bad & outclassed, use a goddamn Sneasel / Scarfer if you wanna revenge shit so bad.

Edit:
There's also the interesting prospect of a Custap Stealth Rock lead with SR, Head Smash, Metal Burst, and Endeavor with Sturdy as the ability. While this definitely has much less potential, it's at least intriguing to think about for offensive teams since Aggron can get Rocks up and possibly get a KO due to Custap always activating thanks to Sturdy.
Yeah this set is bad; just use lead Archeops for Pete's sake.

*inserts obligatory Druddigon is the truly broken mon joke*.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...h-stolen-from-us.3503680/page-43#post-5427618
 
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I have been playing RU consistently in ORAS and have some thoughts on these two suspects.

Tyrantrum
This Pokemon is very good in the tier. It has very limited switchins in the tier. On any balanced team I build, a Bronzong, a Mega Steelix, a Rhyperior, or a Flygon (revenge killer) is a must. This thing hits like a truck similarly to Durant. A resist is required to deal with Head Smash spam. Things like Defensive Qwilfish, Defensive Slowking, and Defensive Diance, while very bulky, are no match to Head Smash. It promotes a more offensive play style in my opinion, with Revenge killing as a primary way for dealing with it. I always prepare for Tyrantrum in team building. (Pro Ban)

Mega Steelix
This is the God of RU. It can fit on any Bulky team. Arguably the best Stealth Rock setter, and defensive pivot. Plus It can ostensibly beat any of the other Megas of the tier 1 on 1. I like the comparison someone mentioned earlier of this to Lando-T of OU. They both act as glue for many teams as a solid defensive blanket check to many threats. However Steelix is a very predictable Mon, with low speed; common weaknesses to fire, ground, fighting, and water; and no form of recovery (excluding rest.) I have never thought of steelix extensively in my team building. I have had very little trouble with it in my experience. It is very commonly used and can be a staple on too many teams. It may be to centralizing, but I have no trouble with it in the tier.
BUT, the tier opens up so much more with it gone. It is much more like Aegislash in my opinion. It holds back many offensive Mons back. The metagme is entirely different without it. It is a very dominant steel type that outshines the others. With it gone Escavalier, Bronzong, Registeel, and Mawile can become much more prominent.
Honestly I am torn. (Undecided)
 
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Lord Death Man

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Just to clarify - is the suspect tour for both requirements, or just the second half of requirements?
 
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Ok so Magneton is emerging as a really good wallbreaker, considering Diancie + bulky Water is a common core right now and Magneton dismantles it easily. With Mega Steelix gone Magneton has definitely been freed up to spam Volt Switch more freely. It helps a lot that Magneton takes on Venusaur, Tangrowth, and Rotom-C well, since they're often paired with a Diancie as well. Overall this is looking like a much better mon, since with Mega Steelix gone, it doesn't have to predict as much.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun

Ok so Magneton is emerging as a really good wallbreaker, considering Diancie + bulky Water is a common core right now and Magneton dismantles it easily. With Mega Steelix gone Magneton has definitely been freed up to spam Volt Switch more freely. It helps a lot that Magneton takes on Venusaur, Tangrowth, and Rotom-C well, since they're often paired with a Diancie as well. Overall this is looking like a much better mon, since with Mega Steelix gone, it doesn't have to predict as much.
Don't forget to tack on Specs possibly since Magnet Rise isn't mandatory anymore. Of course if Magneton becomes extremely prevelant Bronzing could start running EQ > Psywave
 

EonX

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Thank goodness I'm don with reqs bc I've been wanting to share a couple of the mons I used ever since the first week, but didn't want to reveal any of my team. For the record, I used largely the same team all the way through on both ladders with only one mon change that I felt would be necessary to better handle a ladder w/o mega lix and ttrum. So, let's have fun!


Aura Burst (Diancie) @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 232 HP / 24 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Diamond Storm

Offensive Trick Room Diancie is something I don't see many people ready to face. Offense has very few ways to switch into it once it sets up and it can act as more of a wallbreaker of sorts against fatter teams. It still can provide its team with a way to check Houndoom, birds, and Exploud (I'd recommend a sturdier response tho, just to be safe) With 0 Speed IVs, Diancie falls just behind base 30s (Slowking), meaning only Escavalier and Mega Camerupt can possibly be slower. I had Psychic for a while in the last slot, but Braivary got to be pretty common on the suspect ladder, so I went for Diamond Storm just so I could reliably beat Sub Bulk Up sets with Diancie. Moonblast for STAB and Earth Power for Steels and opposing Diancies.


Lurgy (Venusaur) (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 24 SpA / 20 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed

Another Pokemon I decided to use because the team I was using needed a Fighting resist, and I wanted to do some exploring with defensive Venusaur since I hadn't really done so since Amoonguss left. I'm so glad I did. It was almost laughable how many teams were not prepared to deal with this thing. I had Sleep Powder on Venusaur for most of the run on the first ladder, but it started proving to cost me matches too many times (seriously, at least 5 of my 12 losses were bc of a Sleep Powder miss) so I put Leech Seed on. Since it has Sludge Bomb, most Grass-types don't want to switch in and Sigilyph is the only other Pokemon that's immune to the passive damage. With Leech Seed, something like Emboar or Escavalier would have to take 24% damage minimum just to launch an attack on something they want to switch into. Considering this also keeps your checks and counters to these threats a bit healthier as a result. It's also surprisingly difficult to kill this Venusaur since it has Black Sludge, Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Giga Drain as forms of recovery. Yeah, that's 4 ways to recover HP and still be an absolute nuisance to defensive cores.


Summon Flare (Emboar) (F) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Reckless
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Sucker Punch

Expert Belt Emboar was the one new Pokemon I used on that team for the suspect ladder considering I anticipated Escavailer to be much more common and I had no offensive way to force it out reliably previously. The moves speak for themselves, but Expert Belt is what makes the set work so well. While some people like the Band set or use Life Orb, this team needed Emboar to switch moves and still have power. Thus Ebelt became an easy choice and it was usually pretty easy to lure in stuff like Alomomola and Slowking so Diancie and Flygon could go to work later. Sucker Punch is cool asf to chop down Fletchinder and Sigilyph once they realize you're not choiced. There was maybe 1 or 2 battles out of around 50 that I wanted Life Orb on Emboar for the extra damage. Note that you can run Jolly if you want in order to outspeed Exploud, but you'll lose the chance to KO Slowking with Wild Charge after it switches into Flare Blitz and Stealth Rock. (if it's AVest, it won't matter)

Really cool mons that I feel people should try some more as they were really fun for me to use during this run. I'm also completely shocked that I ran into a total of 0 Aggrons or offensive Druddigons O_O
 

atomicllamas

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Locked ID thread, will put up voting thread ASAP.

A little disappointed in the lack of discussion in this thread about the meta game without either suspect (I guess I'm guilty of this too !_!). As for my experiences I laddered primarily with an offense team for the second meta game which I felt was pretty easy to build and play with. Magneton is super strong in this meta as it doesn't need to run Evio Magnet Rise, Specs (both Analytic and Sturdy) takes advantage of the lack of ground types, although Mega Camerupt is a much stronger mega in this meta from my experience. Scyther was something else I used cause Spirit recommended it, and it paired p well with Magneton. But yeah, I found the suspectless meta pretty fun and diverse (only played rain 3 times!!! (wish it was more cause I won all 3 D:). If you guys want to share your thoughts in this thread on the meta without the suspects please do, as voting will be up for a few days.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
Didn't ladder for reqs but I want to share this core I used for a bit (not giving importables cuz on phone)
The idea was Mag could trap steels that CM Dino dislikes and MegaDino can lure the heck out of everything. I had Surf for Ground-types that stopped it from clicking TBolt and Psychic for selfish reasons. (Also hit venu which switched in on TBolt.) But yh luring the crap out of everything is fun.
 
I really liked the metagame without Tyrantrum and Mega Steelix. There was a lot more freedom to build whatever you wanted as long as you checked certain threats like Virizion and Fletchinder, and could break through balance cores. As Spirit said you didnt need to keep recycling the same cores to build your team. I found I could spread out with my team choices and pick Steel-, Normal, Bug, and Flying-types that werent previously viable. I really hope these two mons get banned because the meta will be freed up a bit (though stall will take a bit of a hit with megalix's departure).
 
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Jisoo

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I really liked the metagame with Tyrantrum and Mega Steelix. There was a lot more freedom to build whatever you wanted as long as you checked certain threats like Virizion and Fletchinder, and could break through balance cores. As Spirit said you didnt need to keep recycling the same cores to build your team. I found I could spread out with my team choices and pick Steel-, Normal, Bug, and Flying-types that werent previously viable. I really hope these two mons get banned because the meta will be freed up a bit (though stall will take a bit of a hit with megalix's departure).
Um this is kinda worthless now because ttrum and megalix are probably getting banned, but i disagree completely. With ttrum lurking on just about every team, you were limited to only a few options, and band ttrum has almost no switchins. If anything tyrantrum added more stress into teambuilding to check that alone not to mention like you said you had virizion and fletchinder you HAD to check. Maybe this was a typo or something, but I gotta disagree.
 
Rhyperior loves the post M-Steelix and Tyrantrum metagame, as it lost its biggest competition. It had to compete with M-Steelix for its Stealth Rock set, as that had better defensive typing and bulk, and it had to compete with Tyrantrum for its Choice Band and Rock Polish sets, which was much faster.
 
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