Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - The Robots - Metagrossite BANNED

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Amaranth

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No it is not the same, mega kang only has a 1-2 counters. Mega gross has a variety of checks along with reasonable amounts of counterplay while mega kang and the other stupid op mega Mons don't.
Sure, bringing up Mega Kang is exaggerating your argument, but he does have a point in saying that it's comparable to what you are arguing right now.

I like donkeys's post explained the concept really well. Mega Kang might have shot up 2-3 mons with 1-2 redeeming traits because it's just that broken and you need exactly those niche mons to check it; but your argument right now is that Mega Gross is fine because it's only making 5-6 mons with 4-5 redeeming traits more viable. The comparison is valid - the numbers are the difference here.

How far do these numbers have to go until you can consider an element to be overcentralizing? It's obvious that Mega Kang is too much, and the suspect vote showed that Pheromosa was too much; is Mega Metagross too much? This is the point of discussion here.

And to follow up on that: bringing up the same Slowbro, Mew, Hippo, etc on and on does not help your argument. Bringing up more and more niche 'mons is a *bad* thing, not a good one - it means Mega Metagross is warping the metagame just that much. Ideally you want pokemon to be checkable and counterable without resorting to niche mons. If you want to make a convincing argument, try to bring up more viable methods of checking Mega Metagross (or convincing us that Slowbro, Mew, etc aren't as unviable as we think; and that means making actual points, and not repeating "they're not as bad!" like a broken record, as you have been doing until now).

Make an argument for Mega Metagross's checks and counters being notable in numbers and in viability, if you're trying to prove that it's not overcentralizing. As of right now, the countermeasures you're bringing up are just not good enough in the metagame to be seriously considered as valid points.
 
Sure, bringing up Mega Kang is exaggerating your argument, but he does have a point in saying that it's comparable to what you are arguing right now.

I like donkeys's post explained the concept really well. Mega Kang might have shot up 2-3 mons with 1-2 redeeming traits because it's just that broken and you need exactly those niche mons to check it; but your argument right now is that Mega Gross is fine because it's only making 5-6 mons with 4-5 redeeming traits more viable. The comparison is valid - the numbers are the difference here.

How far do these numbers have to go until you can consider an element to be overcentralizing? It's obvious that Mega Kang is too much, and the suspect vote showed that Pheromosa was too much; is Mega Metagross too much? This is the point of discussion here.

And to follow up on that: bringing up the same Slowbro, Mew, Hippo, etc on and on does not help your argument. Bringing up more and more niche 'mons is a *bad* meta.g, not a good one - it means Mega Metagross is warping the metagame just that much. Ideally you want pokemon to be checkable and counterable without resorting to niche mons. If you want to make a convincing argument, try to bring up more viable methods of checking Mega Metagross (or convincing us that Slowbro, Mew, etc aren't as unviable as we think; and that means making actual points, and not repeating "they're not as bad!" like a broken record, as you have been doing until now).

Make an argument for Mega Metagross's checks and counters being notable in numbers and in viability, if you're trying to prove that it's not overcentralizing. As of right now, the countermeasures you're bringing up are just not good enough in the metagame to be seriously considered as valid points.
I don't think slowbro, hippo, etc are niche Mons. They perform the task of checking megagross while still checking other parts of the tier. That's why I'm even bringing them up, if they were for sole reason of beating megagross then I wouldn't have because that is clearly over centralizing. And no my argument is not that it brings lower tier Mons from the depths, my point is that people are indoctrinated with thinking that one should use only OU Mons and that's it, and that's what blinds us from the potential checks that can handle mega meta
 
I don't think slowbro, hippo, etc are niche Mons. They perform the task of checking megagross while still checking other parts of the tier. That's why I'm even bringing them up, if they were for sole reason of beating megagross then I wouldn't have because that is clearly over centralizing. And no my argument is not that it brings lower tier Mons from the depths, my point is that people are indoctrinated with thinking that one should use only OU Mons and that's it, and that's what blinds us from the potential checks that can handle mega meta
While that might be true for more casual players, that is far from true here. Keldeo is a good example. Keldeo is a great 'mon in OU. It's in UU. Also, you give no proof that the 'mons you listed are as viable as OU ones like Keldeo is. The only thing you claim they can do with proof is that they deal with MegaMeta. Out of that list, only Mew is at least okay with Mewnium-Z. However, it is still outclassed by Z-Sweepers like Salamence and Gyrados. Also, that argument is more "system is rigged" garbage. Moreover, even if you don't say the point doesn't mean it isn't conveyed.

Tl;dr: Your post is wrong
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
What's the point of using subpar and niche 'mons in the OU metagame, which can't even counter metagross? Worning it out? With the amount of pressure it creates?
And which offensive 'mon doesn't get worn out? The concept of "worning out" an offensive 'mon is one of the worst arguments i've read here so far. It's absurd to even think to compare worning out an hard/soft check with worning out an offensive theat. If you worn out the check, it doesn't check what it should anymore, if you worn out the offensive threat, that doesn't make it less powerful. In the case of metagross, even priorities can't deal with it properly.

Espeed and bpunch do irrelevant damage, sucker punch users are basically non-existent and even if they were, you could just use the psychic terrain via tapu lele to back up its sweep and nullify that. Nevertheless, it's true that you can revengekill it with dugtrio, but that's the case for almost all the offensive threats in the current metagame, and probably one of the reasons people find megagross to be still "okay". Also, that just puts an enormous constraint in the team building phase so it's not like it is a good thing, whatsoever.

I still have to see a good no-ban argument in this thread, and as far as i'm concerned, no one clearly aswered Finchinator's post that's on the very first page of the thread.
(i don't consider "encouraging proactive play" to be even an argument at all)
 
While that might be true for more casual players, that is far from true here. Keldeo is a good example. Keldeo is a great 'mon in OU. It's in UU. Also, you give no proof that the 'mons you listed are as viable as OU ones like Keldeo is. The only thing you claim they can do with proof is that they deal with MegaMeta. Out of that list, only Mew is at least okay with Mewnium-Z. However, it is still outclassed by Z-Sweepers like Salamence and Gyrados. Also, that argument is more "system is rigged" garbage. Moreover, even if you don't say the point doesn't mean it isn't conveyed.

Tl;dr: Your post is wrong
No, the argument is that people are being too short sighted in seeing the potential and reasonably good amount of counter play that exist, which ultimately doesn't warrant megagross a ban. And I'm not asking people to use garbage like dusknoir or whatever other crap out there, because there are checks for megameta who are reasonably viable. Just because they are not your typical bread and butter mons such as lando, gren, and toxapex does not mean that these 'mons are useless. They may be less effective but are viable and even then, megameta has some offensive counter play, although harder but it exist. Megameta seems to be a case that the metagame really just evolved in its favor.

I noticed you purposely refrained from using the word counter. . . Willing to bet that is no coincidence, but either way, yes, clearly it is an exaggeration. Megamom was among the worst things to ever exist in the OU metagame. But it still brings forward the point of, if the main reason that these 'mons are seen as "viable" or even "niche" is because they check a sole 'mon, that is a problem. And we can dance around the point all day long, but the 'mons you brought up pretty much match exactly that. Slowbro has very little place in OU and same with Hippo. Yes, of course they CAN work, they aren't useless, but they just don't function very well in this environment.

Yes, it is checkable, I thought that it was made abundantly clear a million times over, that we accept that. But a sizable problem with that is it is more than capable of adapting to that. As well as the fact that the 'mons you are bringing up, are EXTREMELY hardpressed in this metagame that does them no favors. This meta just is not kind to them. At all.

So, you're having to run less than stellar teammates all in the name of stopping one 'mon that could still break you in the right conditions. You've got to realize how weak that is. . .
"In the right conditions," almost any Pokemon can break their checks and counters in the right situation. And I admit that I've made an error in addressing my position, I don't think that mega metagross isn't broken. But what I do believe is that it isn't the correct time to test this Mon, especially when we have a Pokemon lurking in the s rank who was previously banned.
 
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earl

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"In the right conditions," almost any Pokemon can break their checks and counters in the right situation. And I admit that I've made an error in addressing my position, I don't think that mega metagross isn't broken. But what I do believe is that it isn't the correct time to test this Mon, especially when we have a Pokemon lurking in the s rank who was previously banned.
I really didn't want to post in this thread, but I need to address your viewpoint. You say that Mega Metagross is broken (read: ban worthy), but then you do a full 360 and say we should just not ban it so we can ban Greninja (which was probably up next anyhow), and then come back and ban it again? If you think it's broken, why prolong this painful period of OU and just get it out of the way? It doesn't even matter if other things are broken.
And on the matter of it's checks being viable, you seem to misread what we call bad mons as pure shit like Dusknoir when we're actually referring to the mons that you are touting as counters. I can promise you that we'll be seeing less Slowbro (not that it was common anyway) if Metagross leaves, due to the fact that they are being run to primarily check Meta. They fufill other roles, yes, but others in the tier do it better.
 
No, the argument is that people are being too short sighted in seeing the potential and reasonably good amount of counter play that exist, which ultimately doesn't warrant megagross a ban. And I'm not asking people to use garbage like dusknoir or whatever other crap out there, because there are checks for megameta who are reasonably viable. Just because they are not your typical bread and butter mons such as lando, gren, and toxapex does not mean that these 'mons are useless. They may be less effective but are viable and even then, megameta has some offensive counter play, although harder but it exist. Megameta seems to be a case that the metagame really just evolved in its favor.
In what world are Slowbro, Mew, and the like "reasonably good"? They were all common last generation but have fallen off with the introduction of new threats in the metagame that capitalize on their prevalent flaws, such as a lack of resistances or offensive presence. If anything, they've become worse, not overlooked. Maybe you're being short-sighted when you say that these Pokemon are "reasonably viable" and have "potential" because guess what, maybe it's not everybody else being stupid and in reality these Pokemon are simply sub-optimal now. Asking people to run niche checks to Mega Metagross that lose to a large portion of the rest of the metagame AND, with even a little prior damage, to Mega Metagross itself, is not a quality anti-ban argument. If anything it highlights how centralizing Mega Metagross is, with people desperate enough to run these Pokemon to have a better chance of beating it.

"In the right conditions," almost any Pokemon can break their checks and counters in the right situation. And I admit that I've made an error in addressing my position, I don't think that mega metagross isn't broken. But what I do believe is that it isn't the correct time to test this Mon, especially when we have a Pokemon lurking in the s rank who was previously banned.
Greninja existing is not a reason to keep Mega Metagross in the tier. You even admitted Mega Metagross is broken. Where are you going with this point?
 
hades666

Whether or not Greninja was banned in gen VI is irrelevant. This is a completely different game. Its like saying Metaknight should be banned in SSB4 because he was OP in Brawl. Sure, I want the Greninja suspect too, but just because Greninja is too good doesn't mean Megagross isn't too good. In fact, having to devote hard checks to both of them is super constraining. Losing Megagross might actually serve to make Greninja more fair. It might not, but we should take everything in due time. The fact of the matter is that the Megagross suspect is happening right now. If the community sees the pokemon as broken during the format in which it is suspected (which seems to be the case), it will be banned.

Pokemon can break their checks, that is true. But you also have to consider that you don't play a pokemon to beat one pokemon. It has to mesh with your team comp, further your game plan, and deal with more than just one pokemon. Sure, you can pack a subpar pokemon for Megagross, but from this two situations arise:

1. What do you do when you play against a team that doesn't use Mega Metagross? You're now essentially down a team slot.

2. What do you do if your Mega Metagross check needs to answer more than just the opponent's Mega Metagross? You see, pokemon like Ferrothorn that sometimes check or counter Megagross are good because if your opponent has Megagross and say a Mimikyu or Tyranitar or some other physical offensive threat, it can deal with both of them in the right situations. Sure, a Mew might be able to wear down a Mega Metagross, but that isn't enough to warrant using it on a team. A pokemon has to do more than that.
 
I'll be voting ban. When looking at SM, one thing I've noticed is that there are a massive number of threats that you need to check, and many of them are extremely difficult to do so. This means that no matter what you do, you can't even begin to cover everything because teambuilding is so incredibly pressured, which I find detrimental to the quality of the tier. As a result of this, I'm going to ban more liberally than I would otherwise like to. The only way I can see this meta improving is if we eliminate some top threats to give players more options about what they want to use. From what I've seen on ladder and spectating tour matches, I currently think the overly restrictive threats in the tier that really need to go are Metagross, Greninja, Baton Pass, and we need a stall nerf too.

However, as this suspect is about Metagross rather than the other 3, I'll only talk about Metagross from now on. Metagross was perfectly balanced in ORAS, but in the transition to SM, a number of factors make it too good for the tier in my opinion. First off, many of the pokemon that were used in ORAS to wall Metagross are now way less effective than they used to be. Slowbro has practically fallen off the map, Tangrowth's Rocky Helmet set is rare, Mega Scizor is still viable, but is significantly less effective than it used to be. Skarmory is still pretty good, but the problem is that now Metagross can utilise electric terrain to muscle past it if it wants to. Due to all these factors, Metagross is now able to function as a breaker much better than it ever used to be able to.

Improving as a breaker would be no bad thing, except that now, obviously, it does not suffer from a low base speed on the turn it mega evolves. What this means in practice is a much better matchup vs offence teams. Combined with the fact that there are more fairies in SM than there were in ORAS, such as Lele and Magearna, which you need to be able to check, Metagross becomes an incredibly safe pick for a team. Due to how little support Metagross needs (electric terrain is only an option rather than a necessity), it's something that fits incredibly easily on to a large number of teams, but because many of its ORAS checks got worse, you really need to go out of your way to respond to something which is very common.

In theory, there is nothing wrong with having to use a check that you wouldn't necessarily want to, in order to respond to one of the best pokemon in the tier, provided that the check is somewhat viable. However, due to how many other threats you have to respond to, and the lack of variety in good options to respond to Metagross, preparing for Metagross means that very often you're going to not be prepared for something else. For me, a good tier is one where you can check all the common threats reasonably well but not perfectly. We're still a long way off being able to do that in SM, which is why I want to see a bunch of very restrictive threats in the metagame banned, even if they're not capable of sweeping through teams in the way that something like, for example, Pheromosa could.
 
hades666, I have attempted to refrain myself from commenting further on this thread, as it is merely just rehashing the same argument over and over towards the anti-ban side; you, however, have awoken me from what should've been an eternal slumber, and I grace myself upon the forums yet again to say what I have been saying, but with more questions to ask.

1.

I don't think that mega metagross isn't broken. But what I do believe is that it isn't the correct time to test this Mon, especially when we have a Pokemon lurking in the s rank who was previously banned.
That doesn't matter. This is the time it was brought up. Broken is broken. Broken should not check broken, broken should be banned regardless. You just admitted Mega Metagross is broken, but you refuse to side with the pro-ban members just because of Greninja. I have used any variant of Greninja possible, from basic Protean to Spikes Suicide, even dabbing some in Battle Bond and even Z-Happy Hour (fun set...if you don't mind the lack of coverage, that is). Greninja only got better when Megagross left for the suspect. Megagross was Mega GROSS (sorry, I have a habit of bad puns) for the meta, as it would just mold to it to compromise for its previous losses. Gen VI was a prime example of this--hell, the vote was so narrow last gen.

2.

No, the argument is that people are being too short sighted in seeing the potential and reasonably good amount of counter play that exist, which ultimately doesn't warrant megagross a ban.
Yes it does, if the counterplay is niche and doesn't have much use outside of said niche. To make sure you understand, answer these specific questions.

1. Do any of your counters have any roles, outside of specifically checking Mega Metagross, that they are not completely outclassed in? If so, how would they more fit the meta in that they would actually be staples in?

1a. If the answer is no, why are you bringing it up? If Megagross is not part of the opposing team, did you just waste a team slot? Yes. Yes you did.

2. Define the word counter. Hell, I'll do it for you. A counter is a Pokemon that can safely switch into any move, in just about any conceivable situation commonly seen in the meta, without any worry, and can either kill it, stall it out, or force it out without issue. Slowbro and Mew aren't counters. They are checks--shaky ones, too. Meteor Mash 2HKO's Mew after Stealth Rock (and has a 90% chance to do so without), Thunder Punch 2HKO's Slowbro when either Electric Terrain is up (not uncommon on certain teams, mind you) or when Stealth Rock and a single layer of spikes is up, has a 98.8% chance of doing so.

Anyways, I'm getting off topic here.

3.

Just because they are not your typical bread and butter mons such as lando, gren, and toxapex does not mean that these 'mons are useless. They may be less effective but are viable and even then, megameta has some offensive counter play, although harder but it exist. Megameta seems to be a case that the metagame really just evolved in its favor.
No, no, no, no, and NO! When Pokemon are less effective, they are less viable. Name the Mega Metagross counterplay instead of just saying it exists. Mega Metagross's molding with the meta was a two way street; the meta evolved in its favor so well (which is a huge issue in its own right) while it evolved around the meta if it even SEEMED like it was going the other way. This generation was far too kind to Metagross, not even in the "Gen 5 made Mamoswine better" kind of way, the kind that gave the Anything Goes fiend that shall not be named that ridiculous mega kind of way, and when things started to look down, people started to use other options to get rid of its normal checks. I mean, there are people that run Hidden Power Fire just to remove Ferrothorn and Scizor! Explain that.

4.

I don't think slowbro, hippo, etc are niche Mons. They perform the task of checking megagross while still checking other parts of the tier.
Make reqs. I can't because I have to work six days a week and I have adult shit I have to take care of, but I have the little time to see and feel many of the effects that happen. Once you go higher in the ranks and realize that they are niche mons, maybe you'll feel a bit stupid and realize that you made a mistake here. They ARE niche mons because their roles in previous gens are done much better by other Pokemon and/or their original roles are no longer as impressive. Toxapex laughs at Slowbro as a Regenerator Water-Type, Hippowdon is just less effective because mono-Ground is an awful defensive typing (praise be Landorus-Therian), and Mew? I always thought that Psychic was worse than Grass or Ground Defensively because U-Turn, Knock Off, and Pursuit, but it would make Shadow Ball even more spammable than it already is.

Explain in full detail why your arguments are valid rather than repeating yourself. Hell, I had to go out of my way to explain why Mega Metagross is more broken than Greninja and why it warranted a Suspect Test at this time. If you cannot explain any of this, your argument is invalid and you should consider thinking about your arguments rather than making the Anti-Ban side look even more pathetic than it currently is. We're not ban happy--we let Dugtrio stay, if that says anything. Not all of us ar part of some sort of tieriest community--I've used Klinklang and Rampardos to some success in OU (disclaimer: Please don't use Klinklang or Rampardos in OU, you're not bludz and you're not running Pikachu) because I enjoy those Pokemon. We all do want one thing, however: a balanced meta, something we are still trying atone for since Gen 5 and permanent rain. If you cannot clearly see how Mega Metagross is overcentralizing (how you claim it requires niche mons to check, which is an argument that supports that it IS CENTRALIZING THE META) and broken (adapting to the meta/the meta adapting to it), which you've clearly mentioned, you should honestly look at it again and realize what we're saying and have been saying.

Hopefully this is the last time I have to post on this thread. Vote Ban, be done, let's move on to Greninja. Paul out.
 
hades666, I have attempted to refrain myself from commenting further on this thread, as it is merely just rehashing the same argument over and over towards the anti-ban side; you, however, have awoken me from what should've been an eternal slumber, and I grace myself upon the forums yet again to say what I have been saying, but with more questions to ask.

1.



That doesn't matter. This is the time it was brought up. Broken is broken. Broken should not check broken, broken should be banned regardless. You just admitted Mega Metagross is broken, but you refuse to side with the pro-ban members just because of Greninja. I have used any variant of Greninja possible, from basic Protean to Spikes Suicide, even dabbing some in Battle Bond and even Z-Happy Hour (fun set...if you don't mind the lack of coverage, that is). Greninja only got better when Megagross left for the suspect. Megagross was Mega GROSS (sorry, I have a habit of bad puns) for the meta, as it would just mold to it to compromise for its previous losses. Gen VI was a prime example of this--hell, the vote was so narrow last gen.

2.



Yes it does, if the counterplay is niche and doesn't have much use outside of said niche. To make sure you understand, answer these specific questions.

1. Do any of your counters have any roles, outside of specifically checking Mega Metagross, that they are not completely outclassed in? If so, how would they more fit the meta in that they would actually be staples in?

1a. If the answer is no, why are you bringing it up? If Megagross is not part of the opposing team, did you just waste a team slot? Yes. Yes you did.

2. Define the word counter. Hell, I'll do it for you. A counter is a Pokemon that can safely switch into any move, in just about any conceivable situation commonly seen in the meta, without any worry, and can either kill it, stall it out, or force it out without issue. Slowbro and Mew aren't counters. They are checks--shaky ones, too. Meteor Mash 2HKO's Mew after Stealth Rock (and has a 90% chance to do so without), Thunder Punch 2HKO's Slowbro when either Electric Terrain is up (not uncommon on certain teams, mind you) or when Stealth Rock and a single layer of spikes is up, has a 98.8% chance of doing so.

Anyways, I'm getting off topic here.

3.



No, no, no, no, and NO! When Pokemon are less effective, they are less viable. Name the Mega Metagross counterplay instead of just saying it exists. Mega Metagross's molding with the meta was a two way street; the meta evolved in its favor so well (which is a huge issue in its own right) while it evolved around the meta if it even SEEMED like it was going the other way. This generation was far too kind to Metagross, not even in the "Gen 5 made Mamoswine better" kind of way, the kind that gave the Anything Goes fiend that shall not be named that ridiculous mega kind of way, and when things started to look down, people started to use other options to get rid of its normal checks. I mean, there are people that run Hidden Power Fire just to remove Ferrothorn and Scizor! Explain that.

4.



Make reqs. I can't because I have to work six days a week and I have adult shit I have to take care of, but I have the little time to see and feel many of the effects that happen. Once you go higher in the ranks and realize that they are niche mons, maybe you'll feel a bit stupid and realize that you made a mistake here. They ARE niche mons because their roles in previous gens are done much better by other Pokemon and/or their original roles are no longer as impressive. Toxapex laughs at Slowbro as a Regenerator Water-Type, Hippowdon is just less effective because mono-Ground is an awful defensive typing (praise be Landorus-Therian), and Mew? I always thought that Psychic was worse than Grass or Ground Defensively because U-Turn, Knock Off, and Pursuit, but it would make Shadow Ball even more spammable than it already is.

Explain in full detail why your arguments are valid rather than repeating yourself. Hell, I had to go out of my way to explain why Mega Metagross is more broken than Greninja and why it warranted a Suspect Test at this time. If you cannot explain any of this, your argument is invalid and you should consider thinking about your arguments rather than making the Anti-Ban side look even more pathetic than it currently is. We're not ban happy--we let Dugtrio stay, if that says anything. Not all of us ar part of some sort of tieriest community--I've used Klinklang and Rampardos to some success in OU (disclaimer: Please don't use Klinklang or Rampardos in OU, you're not bludz and you're not running Pikachu) because I enjoy those Pokemon. We all do want one thing, however: a balanced meta, something we are still trying atone for since Gen 5 and permanent rain. If you cannot clearly see how Mega Metagross is overcentralizing (how you claim it requires niche mons to check, which is an argument that supports that it IS CENTRALIZING THE META) and broken (adapting to the meta/the meta adapting to it), which you've clearly mentioned, you should honestly look at it again and realize what we're saying and have been saying.

Hopefully this is the last time I have to post on this thread. Vote Ban, be done, let's move on to Greninja. Paul out.

well, if you want to name one, it's:
- Mega-Slowbro: scald, slack off, calm mind, psychic/psyshock
- Physical defensive wash rotom: will o wisp, hydro pump, volt switch, pain split
- Arcanie-Intimidate-physical defensive: will o wisp, fire spin, morning sun, roar. This works if mega metagross doesn't have erathquake, even if he had it no though claw boost and intimidate.
- Landorus-t-physical defensive-rocky helmet: earthquake, u-turn, rock slide/stone edge, sword dance/stealth rock.
- mandibuzz-physical defensive-rocky helmet: foul play, roost, toxic, defog/tailwind.
- many others, they can force a switch, who said it doesn't?
- you think if the enemy had a tapu koko to set-up terrain, they wouldn't fear scarf chomp, that would mean they have earquake weakness? they would switch of course, to preserve the mega-metagross, maybe to a rotom or something that earthquake doesn't hit.
 
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"In the right conditions," almost any Pokemon can break their checks and counters in the right situation. And I admit that I've made an error in addressing my position, I don't think that mega metagross isn't broken. But what I do believe is that it isn't the correct time to test this Mon, especially when we have a Pokemon lurking in the s rank who was previously banned.
Except, it can break all of its counters without falling short like other mons. Megagross doesn't have to drop a move to be in the "right situation", it's already carrying the move, the right situation is simply any Terrain being up. It's not like Landorus who in order to break passed its checks has to carry an entirely different set and forego an item, and bulk. So, while yes, it does apply to all Pokemon, the "all Pokemon" we're talking about have to actually go out of their way to do that. Megagross does not.

You're just doing the same thing everyone else is doing.

"yes, it's broken, but I think Greninja is broken too" is essentially it boils down to.

Okay, but we're talking about Megagross right now, in which, you've already expressed being broken. So, get rid of Megagross, and we move on to Greninja. It's not rocket science.
 

Nix_Hex

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I know dick about this metagame (I only use the current trendy TR team because it is so anti meta and works even for a "new" player like me). But please, bringing up 6 pokemon, all of which Metagross can hit super effectively in some fashion (you even admit this), and using the word "Arcanine" in the OU forum ... idk where to begin, man. All of those Pokemon are hit at least neutrally by Metagross in two/three moves alone. You didn't list counters, just checks, and shaky ones at that. Mentioning Mega Slowbro as a counter to one Pokemon is dangerous because you are taking up a precious mega slot. I'm not saying it's a terrible Pokemon, but megas aren't meant to be used as bandaid checks (read the previous word) to one of the best offensive threats in the tier.

You're really grasping at straws here dude, and you should cut your losses, or get some better arguments.

I miss my mods.
 
kazenshi said:
well, if you want to name one, it's:
- Mega-Slowbro: scald, slack off, calm mind, psychic/psyshock
- Physical defensive wash rotom: will o wisp, hydro pump, volt switch, pain split
- Arcanie-Intimidate-physical defensive: will o wisp, fire spin, morning sun, roar. This works if mega metagross doesn't have erathquake, even if he had it no though claw boost and intimidate.
- Landorus-t-physical defensive-rocky helmet: earthquake, u-turn, rock slide/stone edge, sword dance/stealth rock.
- mandibuzz-physical defensive-rocky helmet: foul play, roost, toxic, defog/tailwind.
- many others, they can force a switch, who said it doesn't?
- you think if the enemy had a tapu koko to set-up terrain, they wouldn't fear scarf chomp, that would mean they have earquake weakness? they would switch of course, to preserve the mega-metagross, maybe to a rotom or something that earthquake doesn't hit.
- As has been said multiple times in this thread, Slowbro and Mega Bro are not viable in this metagame besides soft-checking Metagross. Not only is the metagame very unfriendly to these mons right now, they are absolutely dunked on by many of Metagross' best partners namely Koko, Lele, both Greninjas and a few others. Put a Slowbro on your team? Congrats, you just made yourself weaker to the mons that Metagross works best with.

- Physically defensive Rotom-W has a chance to be 2hko'd by zen headbutt with rocks up, and with psychic terrain (again Lele + Gross pair well together) it is a clean 2hko even without rocks. Don't forget the flinch chance from zen as well in case your opponent decides to just YOLO his way through your Rotom. Nice "check"

- How many times is Arcanine switching into a Metagross eq with rocks up? Don't forget that if you switch in Arcanine on the turn Metagross evolves Intimidate does nothing thanks to clear body. Also, in matches with no Metagross, what does your Arcanine do that something else doesn't do significantly better?

- Landorus- t gets one switch in to check Metagross if it clicks mash or ice punch, after that you will be at least 2hko'd on your next switch in. Not exactly a long term check.

- Mandibuzz is 2hko'd by T- Punch after stealth rocks and is 2hko'd without rocks even up in electric terrain. (koko pairs well with Metagross, again this has been said multiple times in the thread)

- Just because someone has Metagross + Koko doesn't mean their team is inherently EQ weak. You really think a competent team builder wouldn't address this when building with this duo?
 

The Loog Noog

Banned deucer.
In what world are Slowbro, Mew, and the like "reasonably good"?
I'm personally a pro-ban advocate given most of the pro-ban arguments that have been rehashed a hundred times over in this thread, but saying acting like Mew is trash when it's one of the most convenient glue mons in the tier is asinine. Mew is a really solid mon, criminally underrated at B+ when it's quite a bit better than its rank indicates, due to its ability to check some of the most threatening physical attackers in the tier like Medicham, Metagross, Mawile, etc. Aside from just being a great check to physical attackers, Mew pairs really well with Pokemon that need hazard removal support like Volcarona, which is arguably the most dangerous mon in the tier rn due to its insane versatility and sweeping potential. Mega Metagross is definitely unhealthy with how much it restricts teambuilding and can mindlessly smash away at teams with little to no consequence that I would vote ban on if I had time to ladder for the suspect test, but when arguing for the pro-ban side, please don't make statements as blatantly false as this. (slowbro on the other hand is shit tho lol)
 
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well, if you want to name one, it's:
- Mega-Slowbro: scald, slack off, calm mind, psychic/psyshock
96.1% chance to 2HKO with Thunder Punch in Electric Terrain and with either Stealth Rock OR a layer of spikes up. Even though this sounds strangely specific, it's not uncommon on good teams with Tapu Koko to enjoy hazard laying to make up for its own downsides.

- Physical defensive wash rotom: will o wisp, hydro pump, volt switch, pain split
2HKO'd by Zen Headbutt in Psychic Terrain, not uncommon

- Arcanie-Intimidate-physical defensive: will o wisp, fire spin, morning sun, roar. This works if mega metagross doesn't have erathquake, even if he had it no though claw boost and intimidate.
Niche mon, no count.

- Landorus-t-physical defensive-rocky helmet: earthquake, u-turn, rock slide/stone edge, sword dance/stealth rock.
Hi, did you forget Ice Punch? It still 2HKO's after Intimidate. Oh no, now its attack is lowered and it lost some HP. Return and save for a later kill.

- mandibuzz-physical defensive-rocky helmet: foul play, roost, toxic, defog/tailwind.
Thunder Punch and Ice Punch 2HKO when Stealth Rock is up, while the former can have Electric Terrain if Stealth Rock is not up itself.

- many others, they can force a switch, who said it doesn't?
Of course there are Pokemon that can force it to switch, moveset and situation pending. We're not saying that. We're saying how many checks you need to run to ensure you can stop it, overcentralizing the meta (not Gen IV Garchomp bad, but still bad).

- you think if the enemy had a tapu koko to set-up terrain, they wouldn't fear scarf chomp, that would mean they have earquake weakness? they would switch of course, to preserve the mega-metagross, maybe to a rotom or something that earthquake doesn't hit.
[/quote]

Better be a revenge kill because Ice Punch 1HKO's Garchomp, so why even switch it in? It still also takes significant damage from Meteor Mash, anyways.

Let's try this again.
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
96.1% chance to 2HKO with Thunder Punch in Electric Terrain and with either Stealth Rock OR a layer of spikes up. Even though this sounds strangely specific, it's not uncommon on good teams with Tapu Koko to enjoy hazard laying to make up for its own downsides.
i would just say that even though slowbro mega looks like a good check at first, you really can't do anything to metagross. I mean, you switch in with slowbro, and you take:

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 158-188 (40.2 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

after that, you must use slack off, or you just land a lucky scald trying to burn gross (which is incorrect in any possible way). Then, the megagross player just switches to tapu koko. You have to switch with full hp (252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Slowbro-Mega in Electric Terrain: 414-488 (105.3 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO). The opponent set the electric terrain. Welp, now you also lost regenerator on slowbro, and the opponent literally wears you out.

And it's not an oddly specific case, it's just a standard scenario since koko+megagross are nuts if paired together.

I really can't see slowbro as a "good" check anymore. It's just a wall of meat that can't deal with metagross.
 
I'll be voting ban. When looking at SM, one thing I've noticed is that there are a massive number of threats that you need to check, and many of them are extremely difficult to do so. This means that no matter what you do, you can't even begin to cover everything because teambuilding is so incredibly pressured, which I find detrimental to the quality of the tier. As a result of this, I'm going to ban more liberally than I would otherwise like to. The only way I can see this meta improving is if we eliminate some top threats to give players more options about what they want to use. From what I've seen on ladder and spectating tour matches, I currently think the overly restrictive threats in the tier that really need to go are Metagross, Greninja, Baton Pass, and we need a stall nerf too.

However, as this suspect is about Metagross rather than the other 3, I'll only talk about Metagross from now on. Metagross was perfectly balanced in ORAS, but in the transition to SM, a number of factors make it too good for the tier in my opinion. First off, many of the pokemon that were used in ORAS to wall Metagross are now way less effective than they used to be. Slowbro has practically fallen off the map, Tangrowth's Rocky Helmet set is rare, Mega Scizor is still viable, but is significantly less effective than it used to be. Skarmory is still pretty good, but the problem is that now Metagross can utilise electric terrain to muscle past it if it wants to. Due to all these factors, Metagross is now able to function as a breaker much better than it ever used to be able to.

Improving as a breaker would be no bad thing, except that now, obviously, it does not suffer from a low base speed on the turn it mega evolves. What this means in practice is a much better matchup vs offence teams. Combined with the fact that there are more fairies in SM than there were in ORAS, such as Lele and Magearna, which you need to be able to check, Metagross becomes an incredibly safe pick for a team. Due to how little support Metagross needs (electric terrain is only an option rather than a necessity), it's something that fits incredibly easily on to a large number of teams, but because many of its ORAS checks got worse, you really need to go out of your way to respond to something which is very common.

In theory, there is nothing wrong with having to use a check that you wouldn't necessarily want to, in order to respond to one of the best pokemon in the tier, provided that the check is somewhat viable. However, due to how many other threats you have to respond to, and the lack of variety in good options to respond to Metagross, preparing for Metagross means that very often you're going to not be prepared for something else. For me, a good tier is one where you can check all the common threats reasonably well but not perfectly. We're still a long way off being able to do that in SM, which is why I want to see a bunch of very restrictive threats in the metagame banned, even if they're not capable of sweeping through teams in the way that something like, for example, Pheromosa could.
You can't expect to be able to build a team that counters everything in the meta. This type of thought process is what will ultimately cause smogon to ban too many mons and eventually the meta will become stale and defensive.

A mon is broken if there aren't enough checks or counters that you can place on a team and perform reasonably well. A mon is not broken merely because you feel like you shouldn't have to account for it, or because accounting for that mon keeps you from perfectly accounting for others.

This is pokemon guys. You can't eliminate match up advantages entirely, nor should you expect to. Sometimes it seems like your opponent's team is built just to beat yours, despite your best intentions in team builder. Sure, we all do our best to have an answer for most prominent threats when team building. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem is when you think everything is imbalanced because you couldn't find room for a check or counter on your team.
 
You can't expect to be able to build a team that counters everything in the meta. This type of thought process is what will ultimately cause smogon to ban too many mons and eventually the meta will become stale and defensive.

A mon is broken if there aren't enough checks or counters that you can place on a team and perform reasonably well. A mon is not broken merely because you feel like you shouldn't have to account for it, or because accounting for that mon keeps you from perfectly accounting for others.

This is pokemon guys. You can't eliminate match up advantages entirely, nor should you expect to. Sometimes it seems like your opponent's team is built just to beat yours, despite your best intentions in team builder. Sure, we all do our best to have an answer for most prominent threats when team building. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem is when you think everything is imbalanced because you couldn't find room for a check or counter on your team.
Have you read anything in this thread?

It's not about having to check/counter every mon in the game. It's the fact that it is undoubtedly among the most common 'mons in the game, which means yes, you have to prep for it, but, even when you prep for it, you can still lose to it. That is the biggest problem.

So, no, you cannot prepare for every mon in the tier, but you as the player KNOW you will face a Megagross, so you, as a player WILL prepare for it, and then, despite preparing for it, you can STILL lose to it. It's not a very difficult concept. You can choose to avoid the blatant as all hell problem all you want. The rest of us can identify when something needs to go.

We've had 10 pages of discussion. . . 10. . . and within 10 pages the strongest reasoning to keep it that isn't the cliché shit we see every suspect is "proactive play", and that has borderline become a meme. Not a single person has defended Megagross in a respectable way. Not one have I read and not rolled my eyes. We have essentially wasted 10 pages worth of speculation, regurgitation, and facepalming. . .

Today is the last day. If you're going to make a viable argument for it to stay, I'd do so now. . .

EDIT: Below, if they become the problem everyone with their tinfoil helmets think it will be, then we'll get to it. And yes, slippery slopes are a fallacy for a reason.
 
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Lol at ppl who say the slippery slope is a bad argument. Let's take for example Aegislash quickbanned from S/M OU ok so people said that it won't make mons that aegislash beat more broken but our last two suspect tests had been metagross and pheromosa which are two mons mind that aegi beat, so unless mons like lele are gonna get suspect tested in the future it's an alright argument
 
Lol at ppl who say the slippery slope is a bad argument. Let's take for example Aegislash quickbanned from S/M OU ok so people said that it won't make mons that aegislash beat more broken but our last two suspect tests had been metagross and pheromosa which are two mons mind that aegi beat, so unless mons like lele are gonna get suspect tested in the future it's an alright argument
Slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies in every application unless you can prove that the alleged sloppy slope WILL in fact come to be.

This is not a Smogon thing; it's a philosophy thing. Be better than slippery slope arguments.
 
I just got reqs and felt like posting something.

Lol at ppl who say the slippery slope is a bad argument. Let's take for example Aegislash quickbanned from S/M OU ok so people said that it won't make mons that aegislash beat more broken but our last two suspect tests had been metagross and pheromosa which are two mons mind that aegi beat, so unless mons like lele are gonna get suspect tested in the future it's an alright argument
Seriously, ever heard of "don't use broken to check broken."Aegislash was busted because it could single handedly beat a large portion of the metagame, with ability to deal massive damage to all of its switchins. That's the very definition of overcentralization. There was absolutely no reason to run Aegislash on literally every playstyle, HO and stall included. It could even fit on rain teams. The tier also really lacks Ghost Resists, so Aegislash could get a free kill every time it comes in. So, just because Aegi stopped broken stuff, I don't see the harm in banning it, then phero, then mmeta. Whatever is deemed to be broken should be banned. Limitting the bans makes little sense because Smogon are trying to make the healthiest possible tier. Which good player said that it won't make anything Aegi beat more broken? We simply do not want a metagame with everyone continuosly running a single Pokemon and trying to check it with otherwise unviable things. Mega Metagross is broken right now, and now is the time to ban it.

The thing with Mega Metagross is that it is a massive strain for Bulky Offenses, Offenses, and Hyper Offenses and will make sure that you will play more agressively with one of these three playstyles. Balances need to add something like a Mega Scizor and hope the they don't get Thunder Punch paralyzed, and Meteor Mash attack boosted. Mega Scizor's only way to damage Mega Metagross is by clicking U-Turn and doing a glorius 30%. Hippowdon and Rocly Helmet Tangrowth lose to Meteor Mash attack raises/Ice Punch freezes/ Sleep Powder missing/A Spike being up and they are considered "some of the most reliable checks to Mega Metagross." Mega Metagross is also very splashable, checking Pokemon like Tapu Lele/ TapuBulu/ Mega Pinsir. It can get Stealth Rocks up, act like a late game win condition with agility/ Rock Polish/act as a Pokemon that can luck out its checks and counters/Deal Massive damage every time it comes in/ force out stuff like Mega Medicham when its revenging them/Check any of the Pokemon that it does. Physically Defensive Rotom Wash almost always loses to Zen Headbutt because after one time of taking a Zen Headbutt, Pain Split doesn't recover enough to put it out of Two Zen Headbutts, and it loses. Ferrothorn hates taking Hammer Arms, Landorus-T loses to Ice Punch.

Tl;dr Mega Metagross is broken because it can luck past it checks and pressures three playstyles heavily.

Edit: I got ninja'd
 
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it's not an oddly specific case, it's just a standard scenario since koko+megagross are nuts if paired together.
Obvs not really meant to be said towards anybody with enough thinking process to comprehend (plus that entire post was mostly typed out of anger and being stoned, admittedly), but it should be very obvious to any player with enough sense that a team with Tapu Koko and Mega Metagross would stomp Slowbro out, likely before it has the chance to set up.

Mame YO, just stop. You tried twice (I saw you during the Pheromosa suspect and you were just as laughably ridiculous there are you are here) and failed, what makes you think you'll be able to convince us with more quarter-baked arguments?

You can't expect to be able to build a team that counters everything in the meta. This type of thought process is what will ultimately cause smogon to ban too many mons and eventually the meta will become stale and defensive.
Nobody is trying to insinuate that you can build for literally every threat, but one has to build for perhaps the most common ones while being able to normally blanket check others, unless a good majority of your team needs that niche support (unlikely if you're a good team builder, but still).

A mon is broken if there aren't enough checks or counters that you can place on a team and perform reasonably well. A mon is not broken merely because you feel like you shouldn't have to account for it, or because accounting for that mon keeps you from perfectly accounting for others.
*breathes* There is so much wrong with what you just said I had to double take that to make sure I didn't misread that. Then I realized who typed it.

Firstly, a Pokemon is broken if it can stop just about every Pokemon in the tier, even those that it is supposed to be stopped by, and the only even potential threats are niche mons that would otherwise not belong in the tier. Mega Parent had Cofagrigus (which I absolutely love as a troll Pokemon, but even I can say it's not OU material), but Mega Metagross doesn't really have a solid answer here. We've debunked just about every potential answer, even Mega Slowbro.

Second, maybe players feel like they shouldn't have to account for broken Pokemon because, well, they're broken. It's not that they're broken because of it, it's that we don't want it because it's broken.

Third, and this gets me so hard, that's EXACTLY what makes Metagross so powerful; you have to take slots out to specifically check it. Dare I mention the Garchomp teams in Gen IV and how each one had one or two sweepers to help it as well as at least two checks for SPECIFICALLY GARCHOMP? Jesus, if you knew anything about how the metas were at a time, you wouldn't be coming to this conclusion.

This is pokemon guys. You can't eliminate match up advantages entirely, nor should you expect to. Sometimes it seems like your opponent's team is built just to beat yours, despite your best intentions in team builder. Sure, we all do our best to have an answer for most prominent threats when team building. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem is when you think everything is imbalanced because you couldn't find room for a check or counter on your team.
It doesn't matter when a Pokemon is deemed broken, uncompetitive, and/or overcentralizing. If it fits one of the three, it needs to be looked at. Of course when it's out, you're going to have at least two Pokemon to stop it because it's at least one of the three categories.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again until my dying breath: Just stop. You tried so hard and got so far, in the end, it doesn't even matter...and by far I mean absolutely nowhere because you simply exist to make discussing something like this even more difficult and have attempted to derail two threads.
 
So, I guess I'll leave my obligatory 2 cents after getting reqs as well.

I was originally still a bit on the fence about Mega Metagross after voting No Ban back in ORAS, which turned out to be the right call. However, many ppl already pointed out how and why Metagross got better with the transition to Gen 7 and I would agree that -unlike in ORAS - it's gotten to a point where Metagross is too much to handle for the metagame by now. If anyone is still undecided and doesn't want to read through the whole thread, I'd recommend reading blunder's and bludz's posts here and here, which outlined the reasoning on why Metagross should be banned the best imo.

There is just one thing that still bothers me a bit and that's the timing of the suspect test. Back in ORAS the test also happened when Metagross was extremely prelavent and good but in the end it stayed and the metagame adapted to the point where it was managable. Most of you probably don't share this sentiment because Metagross seems significantly better now than it was in ORAS but I think there is a chance this could happen again, especially once other broken elements of the OU metagame are removed, specifically Greninja.

I hope it's fine I go off on Gren a bit here without derailing the thread because I believe it is relevant refarding this topic. It's Metagross most common offensive partner after Lando-T and one of the reasons the balanced/defensive cores can't handle Metagross as they used to in ORAS. Pokemon such as Slowbro and Starmie, especially if paired with Lando-T, Mew and to a lesser extent Hippowdon are checks that could very well become more viable and more common without Greninja and thus increase the available counterplay for Metagross.

I get that this is a weak reason to vote no ban but I can't help but give Metagross and the chance the metagame adapts to it in the future the benefit of a doubt, while Gren was busted in ORAS and is now busted in SM. I hope this doesn't come off as being silly but I'm just afraid that we'll sit here in like 2 months time and realize Metagross could have actually been fine to stay.

My vote will most likely still be Ban but I wouldn't mind anyone adressing and potentially getting rid of my doubts.
 
There is just one thing that still bothers me a bit and that's the timing of the suspect test. Back in ORAS the test also happened when Metagross was extremely prelavent and good but in the end it stayed and the metagame adapted to the point where it was managable. Most of you probably don't share this sentiment because Metagross seems significantly better now than it was in ORAS but I think there is a chance this could happen again, especially once other broken elements of the OU metagame are removed, specifically Greninja.

I hope it's fine I go off on Gren a bit here without derailing the thread because I believe it is relevant refarding this topic. It's Metagross most common offensive partner after Lando-T and one of the reasons the balanced/defensive cores can't handle Metagross as they used to in ORAS. Pokemon such as Slowbro and Starmie, especially if paired with Lando-T, Mew and to a lesser extent Hippowdon are checks that could very well become more viable and more common without Greninja and thus increase the available counterplay for Metagross.

While gren might have something to do with it, I feel like slowbro and hippo dropped in usage for a bunch of other reasons.

To begin with, the threats you want a physical wall to check are not really the same they were in oras. Back then you had stuff like ttar, terrakion, bisharp, lopunny, victini, , talonflame, zard x.... all of which were taking a ton from eq/stone edge from hippo or scald from slowbro or had their strongest move resisted by those two walls. Maybe some of them, like terrakion, could see their usage raise a bit if gren was banned, but most of them are gone for other reasons.

SM also introduced two very strong grass type wallbreakers, bulu and kartana, against which hippo or slowbro are completely useless. This is especially important since tapu bulu is propably the first mon you'd think of when looking for a physcial wallbreaker. SM also diminished the point of using hippo as a hard stop to volt switch user, since the main electric type, tapu koko, can simply uturn out and grab momentum. Koko also happens to let metagross deal massive dmg to slowbro with thunder punch.

Adding to this, z moves also make it harder to actually wall stuffs. For example slowbro could live a +2 stone edge from terrak and deal massive dmg in return but it gets cleanly okhoed by+2 continental crush. Same thing against sd lando t.


As for starmie I could see it's usage rise significantly if gren was leaving the tier, but I'm pretty sure it won't be anywhere close from what it was in oras. Starmie's main function in a team was often to completely stop heatran and keldeo from doing what they were supposed to do. Heatran is not as common anymore,due indeed to gren but also because scizor and clef aren't as threatening as they were in oras. Same thing for keldeo. His drop in usage has to do with gren being a better water type but also with all 4 tapus having an incredible matchup against it.
Starmie also suffers great competition from tapu fini, who doesn't have to kill momentum by using recover, can't get pursuit trapped, has nature madnesss etc...



So the mons who used to check mega metagross in oras probably won't get anywhere close from their former usage , even if gren gets banned (and that's assuming gren gets banned). And needless to say, gren is one of the best metagross revenge killers (especially ash gren) and a gren ban ban might make gross even more broken.
 
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