Metagame NP: SM RU Stage 1 - Strange Mercy (Feraligatr Unbanned)

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Funbot28

Banned deucer.

Hawlucha is just too much for the meta. Even tho its pretty weak without setup and its poor bulk disables it to gain many opportunities to setup, the Sub Sitrus set can still gain momentum quite easily due to how well Hawlucha can force switchouts at times. Once Hawlucha gets it Sitrus berry consumed + a Swords Dance boost, not much can take it on in every matchup besides Doublade (gets lured by Zoroark) and Pyukumuku (Sub can shut it down if it does not run Taunt). I have even seen some Mold Breaker sets starting to be used that really justs 6-0's stall and does not cough up too much opportunity cost since Hawlucha already outspeeds most of the metagame sans Unburden. While I agree that Zoroark helps propel its viability thanks to it luring Lucha's best counter, I still feel it would be too menacing even if we do decide to ban Zoro (which yeh we should). Hawlucha is just too much to handle since it can break through all playstyles with minimal support, which is why it should be banned.


Been using Heracross extensively ever since Beta and I still believe its not powerful enough to deserve a ban. Like Spirit stated previously, each Hera set (mainly Scarf and Guts) gets checked by specific threats. For example, Scarf lacks the power to break through walls such as Gligar and Chestnaught without the Moxie boost and Guts gets outspeed by a lot of offensive threats such as Salazzle, Swellow, and Noivern. While Heracross can choose to break through either offense or stall (although even thats exaggerated, thanks to Acro Gligar and Fairium Z Sableye) depending on its set, it cannot do this simultaneously and this often leads to it having matchup issues. Which is why I believe it should remain unbanned for now.

Also I wanted to here others thoughts on Sun offense in the metagame? I have been seeing it used a lot on high ladder and in room tours and it has been pulling its weight thanks to Venusaur/Victreebel + Heliolisk denting the majority of the meta under sun.

This is the team I have been using:
Torkoal @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 220 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Stealth Rock
- Protect

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Powder

Victreebel @ Grassium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Weather Ball
- Growth
- Sleep Powder

Heliolisk @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hyper Voice
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn

Glalie-Mega @ Glalitite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Double Edge
- Weather Ball
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard
 

Natan

...
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
To be honest I think Hawlucha is banworthy, but I'm not sure, you can always run something to prevent Hawlucha from sweeping, to beat this SubSet you have some options like Pyukumuku and Quagsire if you run stall, you also can run Doublade, also you can prevent Hawlucha from sweeping revenge killing it with Swellow (just make sure you won't break 2 Subs), there are a some mons who can take a +2 Acrobatics (like Slowbro and Cresselia) and, once you prevent Hawlucha from keeping its Subs, you can revenge kill it with things like Glalie-Mega and Comfey, that being said, it's easy to setup with Hawlucha (principally since it can easily setup on very common mons like choice-locked Heracross and Gligar without Acrobatics), also most of the Pokémon who can reliably check Hawlucha doesn't have recovery, and some times these checks to Hawlucha need to check a lot of Pokémon (like Doublade), so Hawlucha can sometimes be really hard to play around and sometimes it can destroy even teams that are prepared to it, so again I say: I think it should be banned, but I'm not sure.
Well, about Heracross i think some people are overestimating it, Scarf set is just a good revenge killer, not really hard to play around, while Guts set is still slow and not unbeatable to any playstyle, not even stall (Stall may have problems with it, but stuff like Comfey and Pangoro is also hard for stall to deal with and still there's always how to play them around). It's one of the best in the tier (imo the best Pokémon on the tier) but I don't think it's banworthy.
 
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atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Hawlucha vote took place and Hawlucha will remained banned from the RU tier by a 10-1 vote.

Keep Banned: -Tsunami-, Arifeen, col49, FlamingVictini, Kushalos, Spirit, Ajna, Lord Death Man, Many, Robert Alfons

Unban: me, dio

DTC didn't vote as he felt he had not played enough


Thanks to Hawlucha's excellent dual STAB and access to SD, Hawlucha has a total of 2 counters in RU. And thanks to Unburden it has very limited offensive counterplay. The thing that pushes Hawlucha over the edge is how easily it can set up on staple RU mons such as Donphan, Gligar, and Gigalith, as well as choice locked fighters. Its ability to blast through balanced and bulky offense teams, as well as matching up well against HO simply makes Hawlucha too much for the RU tier.


Our next suspect to be reintroduced into the tier is:


Feraligatr.

The Immortal if you could please remove Hawlucha from the RU ladder and add Feraligatr that would be much appreciated, thank you.
 

aVocado

@ Everstone
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Feraligatr sounds like it's a Pokemon that wasn't really controversial and was agreed upon, especially since the only change that happened since its gone has been the departure of Alomomola which only makes it better... why not retest more controversial Pokemon (Bewear, Venomoth, Talonflame?) and leaving Feraligatr alongside Lucario and Suicune where they're banned for good?
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Feraligatr sounds like it's a Pokemon that wasn't really controversial and was agreed upon, especially since the only change that happened since its gone has been the departure of Alomomola which only makes it better... why not retest more controversial Pokemon (Bewear, Venomoth, Talonflame?) and leaving Feraligatr alongside Lucario and Suicune where they're banned for good?
Gatr was objectively more controversial than bear and moth, moth had 9/12 ban votes in the earliest round, bewear had 9/11 in the second round and gatr had 7/11 in the second round. (Just cause you voted DNB on moth doesn't make it a good choice, I'd argue it's actually the third dumbest thing aside from Luc and Cune). No point in testing t flame yet when literally 0 changes too the tier since it was banned. Mola v gatr depended on sets anyways and other bulky waters match up as well or better than mola as they can use haze.
 

aVocado

@ Everstone
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Gatr was objectively more controversial than bear and moth, moth had 9/12 ban votes in the earliest round, bewear had 9/11 in the second round and gatr had 7/11 in the second round. (Just cause you voted DNB on moth doesn't make it a good choice, I'd argue it's actually the third dumbest thing aside from Luc and Cune). No point in testing t flame yet when literally 0 changes too the tier since it was banned. Mola v gatr depended on sets anyways and other bulky waters match up as well or better than mola as they can use haze.

How did the meta change since Gatr's ban? Bewear and Talonflame got banned after Gatr, and if anything that only makes it even better cuz it removes 2 checks. If you/council don't think that the mons I mentioned are controversial then there's kinda no point in retesting them cuz barely anything changed and they're still broken..
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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More offensive threats gone = less to prepare for = possibility gatr is fine, Pokémon isn't the zero sum game you're trying to paint it to be. Do I think gatr is gonna be unbanned? I don't know, but I certainly think it will be easier to prep for now than when you also had to deal with bewear, tornados and talonflame (which is probably the most god awful gatr "Check" I've ever heard of btw). 4 people also thought it wasn't ban worthy at the time of its ban and that was the round I unfortunately could not vote in, so yes it's definitely worthy of a resuspect test. It was never on the level of Lucario or Suicune (or even crawdaunt which is the most comparable Pokémon, I demonstrated this with actual numbers and not with "I feel like", like you did). So while I understand you think this tiering system is dumb cause god forbid you have to build a new team and adjust to the meta (it's a lower tier that's literally the point). This tiering method is the most effective at guaranteeing a balanced and competitive tier long term while keeping the tier always ready for tournament play. If you have any further questions (or thinly veiled complaints) use the sqsa thread, as this thread is reserved for meta game discussion Arikado, thanks.
 
to pitch in some small way (as one of the pro-gatr dudes in the initial vote), i feel that gatr is not an outright broken pokemon in this or any other iteration of this tier. this is perhaps the worst metagame for sd gatr i've ever seen, as we are readily provided and given ample encouragement to run various fast grass- and dragon-types (rotom-c, rose, shaymin, cott, kommo-o, goodra), two consistent unaware mons, and various solid defensive pokemon that punish a two atk (+ jet) gatr, i.e. slow bros, chesnaught, milo, etc. id argue the most dubious case lies in the dd set (@ waterfall / ice punch [crunch / eq]), given its offense mu is a smidge above average, but as it stands the baseline for scarfers is already set over it and a bunch of concessions are being made for it in alt mu's. i do feel confident that this is a worthwhile suspect to engage in, and hopefully we can get a solid discussion circulating for it, cuz id like to get further opinions on what id figure to be a decently divisive mon
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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So I've used Gatr before the initial ban and a number of times in this retest, and I'm just gonna offer my thoughts: Gatr felt more overwhelming then than it does now, which may have to do with the presence of other powerful threats prior to its eviction. Don't get me wrong; Gatr is still an extremely potent threat and by far the most solid overall offensive Water-type in the tier, but I feel like the meta has kinda adapted to it, or rather faced other strong attackers. Offense is already having to deal with Sharpedo and Cloyster, and while Feraligatr has a much easier time maneuvering itself into a sweeping position, Gatr at least still lies within their Scarfer's range, so it's not the end of the world for them yet.

In terms of setup sweeping consistency, Gatr is nearly guaranteed to set up once per game, but it usually simply relies on its general bulk to do so, since most of its resistances either come from Pokemon with a powerful alternate STAB or from Pokemon that can cripple Gatr with status. This means that aiming for a second boost, be it consecutively for +2 or later on in the match, proves to be substantially more difficult, and isn't helped by the decent number of faster checks in the tier, most of which can afford a Choice Scarf to keep Gatr under control. While Gatr does exude a 'early-/mid-game holepunching' and 'endgame sweeping' presence, it rarely manages to perform one role without compromising the other. People emphasize that Gatr gets an easy setup opportunity against most mons in the tier but fail to emphasize that it's safe only once, so you can either save Gatr late-game and squander its early-/mid-game presence (playing not too differently from the other speed-boosting Water-types), or you can send it out mid-match and start throwing out strong attacks but risk getting chipped enough to have the sweep end prematurely or fail to commence. This is quite unlike the likes of Venomoth or Hawlucha which I've found can kinda pull off both to some consistency, and the fact that Gatr has to weigh these odds makes it not come off as extremely broken to me. My other point is that Gatr feels more linear, thus making it easier to play against. Gatr could possibly run other options aside from the main DD + 3 attacks set, such as maybe SD Gatr or SubDD to help against some unfavorable matchups, but as col49 mentioned, this meta feels especially hostile against Gatrs that only run 2 coverage slots.

All in all, it feels like the meta has somehow managed to adjust to Gatr during its absence, such that Gatr doesn't seem to present itself as a nigh unstoppable monster as opposed to simply being the overall best (or perhaps just most splashable) offensive Water-type in the tier that may not be an unhealthy presence for the meta.
 
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So I have played around 150+ games using Gatr and have spent most of that time floating in the 1500-1600 ranking so I feel like I have a decent grasp on how Gatr has affected the meta and matches up against some common competitive builds.

I think it is pretty universally accepted that the DD+3Atk set is the most effective set, however I have played with Sub SD, double dance, and even an agility special set for the memes. I think the DD+3ATK Set is the strongest immediate case for why Gatr could be banned, but I can see the other sets start to be used more once the RU tour scene developed since it is one of those mons that can cost you the game if you mispredict it's set while playing against it.

While there are several soft checks to gatr and ways to revenge kill, I think to showcase just how difficult this monster is to switch into, I should first list its "hard counters". Keep in mind, for most of these I will be considering gatrs most common moveset: (252Adamant | Waterfall, Ice Punch, Crunch)

Chesnaught can switch in to ice punch and take 51% max, meaning with leftovers it can either try to spiky shield+leech seed up, or if it is carrying the rare wood hammer, can OHKO gatr with this. Keep in mind that if ches it brought in on the SD Gatr set, Gatr can +2 on the switch and potentially OHKO with ice punch.

Milotic in my opinion in the most reliable bulky water answer to gatr. With its naturally fantastic defenses and access to haze and reliable recovery, Milotic can take minimal damage from Gatr's crunch (29-35%) and Toxic/Scald burn while hazing gatr if it tries to set up.

Mantine not only helps against gatr teams by removing hazards that are so commonly associated with Gatr, but also by being able to switch in and take 40% max from unboosted crunch and recover/haze/scald burn similar to how Milotic would play vs gatr. While mantine has more overall utility, it doesnt have the same defensive bulk that militoc does and can be overwhelmed by gatr more easily, especially if it's coming in on rocks.

Poliwrath (lol) is an extremely extremely solid counter to gatr, resisting every common move (other than EQ which doesnt to jack shit anyway) and being able to rest up, phase out or even burn Gatr. However, my opinion is that if people are really resorting to using poliwrath in this metagame, then that is an early sign that gatr is putting an unnecessary teambuilding limitation on the tier.

Unaware Users:
Pyukumuku
is pretty garbage in my opinion and is the ultimate momentum killer. However, no one can deny that it doesn't fear any of gatrs attacks and can recover,scald, or toxic similar to Milotic and Mantine.

Quagsire is a great set stop to set up sweepers. However, with Sheer Force+LO boost Gatr can still chunk quag with waterfall (42-50%) and put huge pressure on this passive unaware fuck. I've found knocking off/burning quag early game allows gatr to pretty reliably 2hko quag on the switch in if any kind of hazards are up.



Now that we've covered the most common "counters" to gatr, lets quickly go over some of the checks I have seen running around on the ladder.

Scarf Users
(If no SD+AJet)

Naturally Fast Mons that can Outpace +1 Adamant Gatr

Weather Users

Weather users (Mostly Sand/Sun) struggle to play vs gatr since unless your weather is already up, you are probably going to have to sack atleast 1 pokemon to get your weather in since Gatr can easily deal with Torkal and Gigilath.


Now that we've reviewed some of the common "checks" for Gatr, it could be argued that this mon does have several viable answers that can fit on any team. Please note that these are just some of the most common checks ive seen on the ladder and this list could probably be expanded depending on how strict your criteria of "check" is, and if you were to extend the list to otherwise non viable mons.


Building with Gatr
One of the reasons I have enjoyed using Gatr so much is because of how easily it fits on offensive builds. Below I'll list some of the mons I have had success in pairing with Gatr.

Offensive Hazard Setters

Lets be real, what offensive threat doesn't appreciate entry hazards? Entry hazards can help tip the scale on the "counters" that can otherwise just bareeeellllyy switch into gatr and recover off damage. I prefer spike stacking over rocks with gatr since they can rack up more immediate damage to the common bulky water checks that would normally comfortable switch into gatr.
Electric Checks

Electric checks becoming so much safer when you already have a +1 Gatr on your side of the field. Unless someone has balls of steel, they're not clicking anything BUT the SE electric move with their scarf Rotom-Cut when they bring it in to revenge.
Grass Checks

I'll admit, I've really only managed to fit either Herracross or Salazzle on with Gatr, but in theory grass checks are very useful to have with Gatr just because of the prominence of scarf grass types (see above)
Pursuit Users

Pursuit users are great to help force Gatr's checks down to a percentage of health where they can no longer safely switch into Gatr. The issue i've found is that most of the common pursuit users do not necessary threaten Gatr's checks enough to reliably cause them to retreat. Using pursuit to eliminate Gatr's frailer offensive checks has been the most effective use of this move in the experience.


Ok, that about sums up my analysis on Gatr's impact in the meta. There's probably alot of things I neglected to mention here so feel free to add on & critique my synopsis. Thanks for reading.
 
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Kushalos

ÜN ÜN ÜN
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
OUPL Champion
So I have played around 150+ games using Gatr and have spent most of that time floating in the 1500-1600 ranking so I feel like I have a decent grasp on how Gatr has affected the meta and matches up against some common competitive builds.

I think it is pretty universally accepted that the DD+3Atk set is the most effective set, however I have played with Sub SD, double dance, and even an agility special set for the memes. I think the DD+3ATK Set is the strongest immediate case for why Gatr could be banned, but I can see the other sets start to be used more once the RU tour scene developed since it is one of those mons that can cost you the game if you mispredict it's set while playing against it.

While there are several soft checks to gatr and ways to revenge kill, I think to showcase just how difficult this monster is to switch into, I should first list its "hard counters". Keep in mind, for most of these I will be considering gatrs most common moveset: (252Adamant | Waterfall, Ice Punch, Crunch)

Chesnaught can switch in to ice punch and take 51% max, meaning with leftovers it can either try to spiky shield+leech seed up, or if it is carrying the rare wood hammer, can OHKO gatr with this. Keep in mind that if ches it brought in on the SD Gatr set, Gatr can +2 on the switch and potentially OHKO with ice punch.

Milotic in my opinion in the most reliable bulky water answer to gatr. With its naturally fantastic defenses and access to haze and reliable recovery, Milotic can take minimal damage from Gatr's crunch (29-35%) and Toxic/Scald burn while hazing gatr if it tries to set up.

Mantine not only helps against gatr teams by removing hazards that are so commonly associated with Gatr, but also by being able to switch in and take 40% max from unboosted crunch and recover/haze/scald burn similar to how Milotic would play vs gatr. While mantine has more overall utility, it doesnt have the same defensive bulk that militoc does and can be overwhelmed by gatr more easily, especially if it's coming in on rocks.

Poliwrath (lol) is an extremely extremely solid counter to gatr, resisting every common move (other than EQ which doesnt to jack shit anyway) and being able to rest up, phase out or even burn Gatr. However, my opinion is that if people are really resorting to using poliwrath in this metagame, then that is an early sign that gatr is putting an unnecessary teambuilding limitation on the tier.

Unaware Users:
Pyukumuku
is pretty garbage in my opinion and is the ultimate momentum killer. However, no one can deny that it doesn't fear any of gatrs attacks and can recover,scald, or toxic similar to Milotic and Mantine.

Quagsire is a great set stop to set up sweepers. However, with Sheer Force+LO boost Gatr can still chunk quag with waterfall (42-50%) and put huge pressure on this passive unaware fuck. I've found knocking off/burning quag early game allows gatr to pretty reliably 2hko quag on the switch in if any kind of hazards are up.



Now that we've covered the most common "counters" to gatr, lets quickly go over some of the checks I have seen running around on the ladder.

Scarf Users
(If no SD+AJet)

Naturally Fast Mons that can Outpace +1 Adamant Gatr

Weather Users

Weather users (Mostly Sand/Sun) struggle to play vs gatr since unless your weather is already up, you are probably going to have to sack atleast 1 pokemon to get your weather in since Gatr can easily deal with Torkal and Gigilath.


Now that we've reviewed some of the common "checks" for Gatr, it could be argued that this mon does have several viable answers that can fit on any team. Please note that these are just some of the most common checks ive seen on the ladder and this list could probably be expanded depending on how strict your criteria of "check" is, and if you were to extend the list to otherwise non viable mons.


Building with Gatr
One of the reasons I have enjoyed using Gatr so much is because of how easily it fits on offensive builds. Below I'll list some of the mons I have had success in pairing with Gatr.

Offensive Hazard Setters

Lets be real, what offensive threat doesn't appreciate entry hazards? Entry hazards can help tip the scale on the "counters" that can otherwise just bareeeellllyy switch into gatr and recover off damage. I prefer spike stacking over rocks with gatr since they can rack up more immediate damage to the common bulky water checks that would normally comfortable switch into gatr.
Electric Checks

Electric checks becoming so much safer when you already have a +1 Gatr on your side of the field. Unless someone has balls of steel, they're not clicking anything BUT the SE electric move with their scarf Rotom-Cut when they bring it in to revenge.
Grass Checks

I'll admit, I've really only managed to fit either Herracross or Salazzle on with Gatr, but in theory grass checks are very useful to have with Gatr just because of the prominence of scarf grass types (see above)
Pursuit Users

Pursuit users are great to help force Gatr's checks down to a percentage of health where they can no longer safely switch into Gatr. The issue i've found is that most of the common pursuit users do not necessary threaten Gatr's checks enough to reliably cause them to retreat. Using pursuit to eliminate Gatr's frailer offensive checks has been the most effective use of this move in the experience.


Ok, that about sums up my analysis on Gatr's impact in the meta. There's probably alot of things I neglected to mention here so feel free to add on & critique my synopsis. Thanks for reading.
RU's Corporal Levi everyone.
 

Senpai D.M

さようなら
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I just wanna say yea we got a lot more offensive pokemon this gen maybe giving it a harder time and scarfers give it trouble as well but what about slower and bulkier teams? Do I have to run quag/ pyu and poliwrath not to lose? That should say how healthy it really is if I have to consider wrath

I still feel it limits teambuilding
 
Just to do my typical thing I'm going to put out Gourgiest-xl as a check to Feraligator. (Along with any other physical attacker without immunity to wisp or guts)


Gourgiest-Xl (Deathbell) @Colbur Berry
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Seed Bomb/ Foul Play
- Will-o-Wisp
- Synthesis
- Shadow Sneak/ Leech Seed

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 247-291 (66 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force burned Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 123-146 (32.8 - 39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 166-198 (44.3 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force burned Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 83-99 (22.1 - 26.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Gourgeist-Super: 131-155 (35 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force burned Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 165-195 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Gourgeist-Super: 88-104 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 174-206 (55.9 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage


Gourgiest can come in safely even if Feraligator uses the turn to boost to +1. Burn in response while likely taking about 40% from a colbur berry reduced Crunch (Or at worst 75% from a well timed Ice Punch).

Once burned Feraligator has to boost up to +3 to reliably outpace synthesis recovery with its damage. Allowing you to either KO with Seed Bomb or Foul Play if its HP is low enough. Or switch out to another suitable counter if Gourgiest is too low from a badly timed Ice Punch or too much prior damage. However with the Colbur berry attached it is highly unlikely that a player will originally pick the lower BP Ice Punch.

This set can also act as a check to the much less common swords dance variant. Taking any one hit outside of Ice Punch and Burning back even at a +2. Much more shakey check to this however. If it manages to get to +2 before you bring in gourgiest, or if gourgiest has taken much prior damage, you're going to have a bad time.
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
Feraligatr doesn't seem too bad. It's well established that its most consistent set is DD + 3 Attacks, but that set has quite a bit of limitations, to the point where I don't think its matchups make it that overbearing. First off, a common misconception is that people think DD gatr can run Adamant. It can't because Adamant Feraligatr is actually slower than Specs Swellow at +1, and not running Adamant obviously limits its damage output to a pretty significant extent as can be seen here:

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 166-198 (43.6 - 52.1%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 151-179 (39.7 - 47.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I think Feraligatr's best matchups overall is against balance teams. While it can be argued that its bulk makes it difficult to rk against offense, it has difficulty setting up without sustaining prior damage and it's still slower than nearly every choice scarf user. I've found that certain Choice Scarf users such as Gardevoir can make simple adjustments to rk gatr effortlessly:

252 SpA Sheer Force Gardevoir Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Feraligatr: 288-340 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (trace is pretty nice here!)

Offense has a lot of tools at their disposal that can put a stop to gatr, including Twave P2, specs kingdra, cloyster, encore Whimsi which dissuades setup, Scarf Shaymin, and pretty much any Choice Scarf user + Doublade or priority. I don't think Gatr's matchup against offense is really any more restricting than Sharpedo, and there's plenty of ways to stop gatr on these teams aside from having specific checks and that's just by pressuring it to not set up or to at least get some damage in on it while it does so and bring ur scarfer in after that.

Stall and defensive teams in general is where gatr has its worst matchup. Any defensive team worth their marbles will carry an Unaware user that hard counters Ferligatr. Unaware users are better than ever nowadays and I think it's very difficult for stall teams in the current meta to handle all the Z move setup sweepers out there without one of them, so Feraligatr's addition to the tier causes no noticeable impact here.

As for more balance teams, they have a lot of the same tools at their disposal, but can usually adjust their teams in such a way to limit gatr's setup opportunities, and there's also a multitude of Pokemon that can check gatr on those teams even if it does setup, including scarfers, haze milo, and wood hammer chesnaught. there's just a lot of ways to play around it without having to go out of your way countering it, and between gatr's lack of recovery and vulnerability to every entry hazards and status, it's more than possible to inflict the necessary damage on it to hold it off or at least cripple it enough where any choice user can pick it off. either way gatr is still a top tier threat and will require some kind of shift in the way people build certain teams, but as of now, i'm not convinced gatr is broken or restricting to an unhealthy extent, and i'll most likely be voting to unban it when the time comes.
 

Natan

...
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
When I saw Feraligatr was being retested I thought it wasn't necessary to resuspect it. It have Dragon Dance, Swords Dance and a decent coverage (Water+Dark+Ice is only resisted by Sharpedo who is OHKOed by Waterfall at +1, Poliwrath and some NFE/LC mons in RU), but after playing with and against it, I realized Feraligatr isn't really broken, as Punchshroom said, Offense need to deal with Cloyster and Sharpedo and they're much harder because you can't just revenge kill they with Scarf (unless you have a Timid Scarf Salazzle to deal with Cloyster). Feraligatr has a decent bulk that allows it to setup once in a game, but this doesn't mean you haven't how to deal with it. Each playstyle have ways to deal with Feraligatr:

Offense: Feraligatr will have problems playing against Offense, because it's hard to take well damage when setting up, and Offense will just have a Scarf Pokémon to deal with it, it can be Gardevoir, Shaymin, Rotoms or even Roserade, even if Feraligatr is able to take the damage it will be in range of some priority such as Doublade's Shadow Sneak.
Defensive Teams: That one is even easier, you can run Unaware mons (Pyukumuku or Quagsire, who won't be 2HKOed by any of Feraligatr's moves).
Balance Teams: Yeah, this one is hard, but Balance can just use Pokémon who won't allow Feraligatr to sweep, there are a lot of ways to stop, Chesnaught Wood Hammer, Milotic and Scarfers won't allow Feraligatr to just setup, also it will need to setup while avoiding status and Knock Off.

Most of the teams I built while Feraligatr was banned already had something that allows it to go against Feraligatr, I don't see it forcing the opposing teams to run a specific thing to check it, there are a lot of answers to Feraligatr (you can just check the posts above to see them) and since there are Pokémon that fit in every playstyle (I don't think defensive teams are forced to run Poliwrath to stop Feraligatr like Senpai D.M said), I'm sure it doesn't limit teambuilding for any playstyle, obviously you need to have something to prevent Feraligatr from sweeping your team, but the same applies to almost any good setup sweeper in the tier so I don't think it's unhealthy, it's great in the meta but nothing unstoppable like I thought it would be.
 

eren

je suis d'ailleurs
gonna hop in here and chime in a bit with my some thoughts on ru currently. let's preface my post by stating what i think of the suspect at hand, feraligatr is not broken. beyond any shred of doubt, one cannot present a reasonable argument where the conclusion is feraligatr is broken. the current trends of the tier simply do not allow this to be true

why is this so? every single team has some sort of counterplay versus it, including teams that weren't even built in a feraligatr meta. offense is the first playstyle that comes to mind in regards to how effective it is in dealing with any feraligatr variant. specs kingdra, whimsicott, scarf dudes (rotom-formes, roserade, shaymin) + some forme of priority such as doublade (which is quite ubiquitous on both hyper offensive and bulky offensive squadrons) usually are enough to damper feraligatr's ability to sweep on a consistent. analyzing sets in particular, dd + 3 atks or sub dd come to mind as the most effective versus offense. yet, it finds itself with very little opportunities to set up and requires a jolly nature to even outspeed swellow, which really reduces a lot of its firepower (just look at jolly gatr vs kingdra calc). overall, offense (even such teams with gligar) usually have the tools to handle feraligatr. if they don't, id like to see to their matchups vs a belly drum slurpuff, a rain dance kingdra, or even hone claws durant. i wouldn't call point the finger at feraligatr in these instances, more of a case of bad teambuilding.

in regards to balance, while you can look at the typical sand balance (arikado's sample, wall's team, my own sand team) and say that the matchup isn't too good for them, you have to account for two things that not just sand balances have but most other balances have more them: they can both switch in and reliably handle feraligatr + revenge it if push comes to shove. to rub salt in this wound, the typical balance nowadays carries some sort of scarfer, and scarf shaymin is really popular, especially on sand builds. overall, ferligatr's position just worsens. haze milotic, haze mantine, and roar chesnaught are everywhere; really preventing neither dd + 3 atks nor sub dd from really being a stand out set vs balance teams because they will usually have some that dissuades either set. oh, also p2 exists so that makes it more difficult for gatr to sweep.

and ferligatr cant do anything versus stall due to the existence of pyukumuku and quagsire.

overall, really enjoying this meta. fun, quirky sets and new, fresh faces (in regards to mons and users!) really have made this generation fun as of now.
 

aVocado

@ Everstone
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Gatr is a lot more manageable than I initially thought he would be but still pretty damn annoying considering its bulk and ease of setup. I find he always finds set up opportunities almost every time it's out thanks to its bulk alone, and one of the best revenge killers in the tier (scarf flygon) barely 2HKOs with its strongest move :/ I'm always forced to run either a different scarfer (mostly shaymin but tbolt/eball garde also works) which is really annoying, or try to check it defensively w/ bulky waters. almost every team runs a bulky water anyway but the fact that he can break through them with +1 crunch is also annoying. mantine is pressured by sr and +1 crunch still does a good ~50%, and all mantine can do is hope for a scald burn unless it foregoes defog for toxic, milotic is really annoying and probably the better counter w/ toxic haze and recover, and pyukumuku is probably the best answer in the tier.

gatr in general is a weird pokemon to me because there arguments for both sides so idk honestly. sharpedo seems like a similar threat that I honestly hate more than gatr by a long shot, and is the reason I'm not building traditional offense/hyper offense because sharpedo just shreds through it so fucking easily. but at the same time without haze waters, pyuk, or scarf shaymin/garde with tbolt or eball gatr will shred through.. its a tough choice, but I think gatr is as fine as dd flygon in this meta .-.

there's also the issues that i hate the most which is with adamant it doesnt outspeed swellow at +1 and with jolly its too weak to break past bulky waters, and also it can be hard pressed for moves too which is annoying as well. but yeah, I think in the end he's as balanced of a setup sweeper as dd flygon is, and sharpedo is potentially more troublesome at least for me lol
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Feraligatr has been unbanned and is now a part of the RU tier.

Unban - -Tsunami-, 49, Arifeen, DTC, FlamingVictini, Spirit, Arikado, Omicron, slurmz

Keep Banned - Kushalos, MrAldo

didn't vote - me (cause I hadn't played enough)


While Feraligatr is certainly one of the better offensive pokemon in the tier, it doesn't function all that well against opposing offensive teams as it finds it difficult to set up and even when it does set up offensive teams have several options to revenge kill Feraligatr. Against purely defensive teams, it is easier to fit a hard counter to gatr on to the team, such as Quagsire, Pyukumuku, Haze Milotic, or Wood Hammer Chesnaught. Feraligatr really shines against balance teams, which can find it quite difficult to deal with a +1, +1 Feraligatr, but even then this suspect test has shown that balance teams have several tools to deal with Feraligatr both offensively and defensively. So while Feraligatr is a top threat in the RU tier, it isn't so strong that it requires removal from the RU tier.


We are going to take a brief break in suspect testing so RU can adjust to having Feraligatr in the tier, then we will proceed with the most logical choice.
 
I honestly think Hawlucha shouldn't be banned. Reasons show that Hawlucha has an excellent speed tier i.e. 118 and somewhat workable Attack with 92. Although it's frail as fuck, it's one of the best sweepers RU has at the moment of it being suspected. However, it gets stopped by Unaware mons like Quagsire and Pyukumuku, faster threats like Jolteon, Swellow (probably one of the best counters to Hawlucha due to Boomburst), Noivern (Infiltrator Hurricane), and Sash Cloyster with Icicle Spear, and defensive threats like Diancie, Bronzong, Slowbro, and Doublade (bulky offensive threat). With careful planning you'll be able to stop Hawlucha if you know how to play around it.

(If this discussion about Hawlucha is still relevant then I won't take this down otherwise I will)

From, Bisohu
 
I honestly think Hawlucha shouldn't be banned. Reasons show that Hawlucha has an excellent speed tier i.e. 118 and somewhat workable Attack with 92. Although it's frail as fuck, it's one of the best sweepers RU has at the moment of it being suspected. However, it gets stopped by Unaware mons like Quagsire and Pyukumuku, faster threats like Jolteon, Swellow (probably one of the best counters to Hawlucha due to Boomburst), Noivern (Infiltrator Hurricane), and Sash Cloyster with Icicle Spear, and defensive threats like Diancie, Bronzong, Slowbro, and Doublade (bulky offensive threat). With careful planning you'll be able to stop Hawlucha if you know how to play around it.

(If this discussion about Hawlucha is still relevant then I won't take this down otherwise I will)

From, Bisohu
Quagsire and Pyukumuku only fit on stall without being momentum drains. None of Jolteon, Swellow, or Noivern are Hawlucha counters (moreso checks since they all fail to switch into its attacks without being chunked or fail to revenge kill it after it has activated Unburden). Cloyster shouldn't really run Focus Sash in the first place, benefitting from other options such as Icicle Plate or Waterium-Z. The only two defensive counters you brought up are Doublade and Slowbro, as Diancie and Bronzong don't resist Fighting and both invest on special bulk. Even then, all those checks are pretty easy to lure. Sure, Hawlucha might be frail, but it's such a damn pain as a late-game cleaner. (Man, just read the ban reasoning)
 
Quagsire and Pyukumuku only fit on stall without being momentum drains. None of Jolteon, Swellow, or Noivern are Hawlucha counters (moreso checks since they all fail to switch into its attacks without being chunked or fail to revenge kill it after it has activated Unburden). Cloyster shouldn't really run Focus Sash in the first place, benefitting from other options such as Icicle Plate or Waterium-Z. The only two defensive counters you brought up are Doublade and Slowbro, as Diancie and Bronzong don't resist Fighting and both invest on special bulk. Even then, all those checks are pretty easy to lure. Sure, Hawlucha might be frail, but it's such a damn pain as a late-game cleaner. (Man, just read the ban reasoning)
Focus Sash on Cloyster gurrantees a free Shell Smash lol. And what I mean by counters I mean things that can kill Hawlucha. Noivern can counter Hawlucha threw its sub do to the fact that it has Infiltrator. Also its not "might be frail" you have to realize that its really frail for a sweeper, which means it can either get revenge killed or severly damaged by things such as an Ice Shard from a Cloyster, Sneasel, or Glalie Mega. And again I did read the ban reasoning, I just wanted to clearly state my opinion whether Hawlucha should stay or not. Also I forgot to say that Prankster users can stop Hawlucha such as Whimsicott (especially with Memento) can really stop Hawlucha on its tracks of sweeping

Other than those objections, thanks for the constructive criticizim, I was just adressing things that can stop Hawlucha. :)
 
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Focus Sash on Cloyster gurrantees a free Shell Smash lol. And what I mean by counters I mean things that can kill Hawlucha. Noivern can counter Hawlucha through its sub do to the fact that it has Infiltrator. Also its not "might be frail" you have to realize that its really frail for a sweeper, which means it can either get revenge killed or severly damaged by things such as an Ice Shard from a Cloyster, Sneasel, or Glalie Mega. And again I did read the ban reasoning, I just wanted to clearly state my opinion whether Hawlucha should stay or not. Also I forgot to say that Prankster users can stop Hawlucha such as Whimsicott (especially with Memento) can really stop Hawlucha on its tracks of sweeping

Other than those objections, thanks for the constructive criticizim, I was just adressing things that can stop Hawlucha. :)
That wasn't constructive criticism. A counter is something that can completely stop a certain Pokemon in most scenarios (for example, Pyukumuku counters Feraligatr as Feraligatr cannot boost past pyuku thanks to Unaware; Gigalith counters Salazzle due to resisting both its STAB moves + virtue of added special bulk from Sandstorm + Salazzle having no real counterplay for Gigalith bar Encoring it on a status moves). Noivern is unable to stop Hawlucha after it has set up so it isn't a counter. I already mentioned why Focus Sash Cloyster isn't that used when it benefits more from damage boosting items. Sure, it lets you live one hit, but it doesn't help break past anything better unless the only scenario you ever lived is setting up on a Shaymin with no hazards ever laid on the field / you've been as tight as possible as to never get them in. Only sneasel and Glalie have a chance to KO Hawlucha after Sitrus (iirc they need prior damage to even do so); Cloyster does like 50 unboosted at most iirc. Whimsicott is seldom used when there are other more useful fairies out there (Florges bc better bulk, Comfey bc stallbreaking). Also Mamento doesn't really shut down Hawlucha (Encore does if you manage to catch it on a sub, however). And that's the only Prankster user that's worth using which can stop Hawlucha

I know that you think Hawlucha isn't broken, but there are so few checks on offense for it + the few it has are easy (read: earlier discussion of hawlucha + zoroark) to cover making Hawlucha too much for the tier honestly.
 
While we are sitting around waiting on the next retest I'd like to weigh in that I think Baton pass is worth a retest. Not in an unlimited manner ala ba ton pass teams, but in a one month per team way like other tiers last gen. It would be interesting to see what users would settle in a solid users and it would add utility to many that are already good. Slow users like the Umbreon, Vaporeon, and Pyuku come to mind even without boosts to pass. Pyuku would be able to assure a safe switch with its immense bulk and the slowest pass in the tier.

Honestly the Eeveelutions would be the one of the biggest beneficiaries of this as they have a variety of boosting moves to choose from, curse umbreon, calm mind espeon, acid armor vaporeon (if anyone cares) but I could see others like Swords Dance Gligar, quiver dance Ribombee, and even everyone's old friend ninjask being viable
 
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