NU Analyses Discussion Thread 2.0

[astroboy]

hey so for the kecleon revamp what exactly do you guys think the set should be

having used it a pretty good amount, i really think its most prevalent and only good set rn is the mixed life orb set with iron tail/fire blast/grass knot/sucker just for its sheer ability to fuck over so many typical normal checks, like audino, rhydon, steelix, etc. i kinda wanna do the revamp once im done with malamar but i wanna make sure that everyones on the same page

 

[Take Azelfie]

On the Misdreavous set why is Shadow Ball used over Hex? I made a double edit in an earlier post and no one caught so.

 

[astroboy]

On the Misdreavous set why is Shadow Ball used over Hex? I made a double edit in an earlier post and no one caught so.

its been needing a revamp for a while so the analysis is very outdated

 

[Take Azelfie]

So since Vigoroth has been moves to BL4, does that mean it will have to get an analysis? (even though it is D rank)

 

[Hootie]

So since Vigoroth has been moves to BL4, does that mean it will have to get an analysis? (even though it is D rank)

No, D rank mons are not getting analyses.

 

[erisia]

Meowstic-M has a very short and outdated NU analysis despite being unranked (and completely outclassed by Xatu). It even has an RU analysis but they like bad mons so w/e.

Probopass also has an outdated NU analysis mentioning Feraligatr and Seismitoad with 3 sets despite being unranked, so either remove or revamp with just a trapper/offensive set imo.

Stunfisk and Swoobat also have outdated NU analyses despite being unranked and should definitely be axed. Swoobat's even mentions Pangoro, when the heck was that NU?

Apologies if this isn't helpful, I was bored.

Edit: Just noticed on the Piloswine set that you decided to take the 32 EVs out of Attack instead of HP. Is there any particular reason? I would have taken them out of HP as its Attack stat is lower than its HP stat and could use the investment more (not to mention its boosted by the Adamant nature).

bolts edit: removed all these analyses as they are unranked and I don't honestly care whether the 32 evs are taken out of attack or hp, not a big deal

 

[Raseri]

can the special attacker steelix get a set i legitimately think its the better option if you want to use steelix on offense

 

[LightningLuxray]

Why does Sligoo have no bulky Resttalk set that's not Curse? Especially on stall I prefer something like Rest / Talk / two attacking moves (Ice Beam and Dragon Pulse are what I've been using) as it allows Sligoo to threaten Pokemon like Sceptile immediately without having to lock itself into Outrage. Otherwise your forced to either double switch or just sit there and Curse as your opponent switches into one of the many answers to mono-attacking Outrage Sligoo. Like the set doesn't even have a mention in OO, which I find quite surprising.

 

[erisia]

We generally decided that the set was passive and didn't really achieve much aside from tanking attacks and giving the opponent opportunities to seize back momentum. Like, Ice Beam does well against Sceptile, but what if they bring in their Malamar / Mega Audino / Musharna / Barbaracle / Omastar / Garbodor / any other setup Pokemon? Curse can at the very least boost as they come in and either wall them if physical or using Psyshock or just wallop them with boosted Outrage. The all-out attacker set at least has enough coverage and power to threaten more of these targets, and this usually proves to be more useful than healing once with Rest and not achieving much with Sleep Talk for the turns thereafter.

 

[Hootie]

Rest Talk plus two attacks does have a mention, it just uses Rock Slide listed as a secondary attack to immediately threaten Charizard. The issue with foregoing Curse is that Swords Dance Sceptile can actually beat Sliggoo because you cannot boost your Defense against it.

e: what erisia said as well

 

[LightningLuxray]

The reasons brought up seem quite solid actually. Outrage seems like a necessary evil I guess, even though I hate it, but in thinking about it continually switching out / Cursing to threaten the opponent until you don't need Sligoo anymore and firing off a +1 Outrage might be better than the two attack set. I haven't actually used Curse myself to be honest, I'll have to give it a shot and see how it goes o.o

 

[Take Azelfie]

Hi! I have actually had quite a bit of success with Choice Band Malamar recently. It has nice power starting off the bat and doesn't always have to get up a Superpower to instantly be threatening allowing it to serve more as a check to certain threats on your team than a sweeper. It's sweeping capabilities aren't even taken away as it still has Switcheroo to mess around with the opponent that may be able to take hits like Quagsire. It is extremely nice and I feel that maybe it could deserve its own set in the analysis.

Malamar @ Choice Band
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def /252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Psycho Cut
- Switcheroo

edit:
Last sentence of oo
It also has access to a wide special movepool with moves such as Thunderbolt to hit Pelipper, Swanna, and Mantine hard, Giga Drain to have recovery while hitting Water- and Ground-types hard, and Focus Blast to hit Ferroseed and Steelix harder; however, Garbodor has roughly the same coverage in its physical movepool along with a better Attack stat.

Focus Blast is in its main sets now so that sentence should be changed.

 

[Hootie]

Using Choice Band on Malamar takes away its main niche and only turns it into a ineffective wallbreaker that at best, only works off surprise value. It's bulky, but it doesn't have resistances to capitalize on in order to net a kill. Being very vulnerable to status also makes it very iffy. Besides, if Malamar is running Choice Band, it'd much prefer having full Attack investment rather than the same spread the standard set has. It's not analysis worthy.

 

[Shadestep]

Misdreavus' analysis mentions things like Dragalge, Slurpuff, and Feraligatr (multiple times) and I think the set could use a bit of refreshing too.
i havent used Misdreavus at all so idk if it needs a revamp, but it should definitely be looked at

 

[boltsandbombers]

Misdreavus' analysis mentions things like Dragalge, Slurpuff, and Feraligatr (multiple times) and I think the set could use a bit of refreshing too.
i havent used Misdreavus at all so idk if it needs a revamp, but it should definitely be looked at

The revamp is currently in progress, I just need to write it up. I'm aware of how outdated the onsite analysis is and we should have gotten the revamp done earlier.

 

[Shadestep]

i was reading through some NU analyses and have noticed some things that i found a bit weird:

• Steelix should get an actual Special Attacker set imo. it's one of the only other viable things you could use on Steelix, and it's only mentioned all the way down at the last sentence on the OO
• Whats so outdated about Floatzels analysis that makes it deserve a brand new one? I haven't had any experience with the Bulk Up set so idk if it's viable at all, but the Special Attacker set seems completely fine
• Muk should definitely get a new analysis. CB seems sub-optimal and there are way more things it can use like Memento, special attacking lures, etc.

 

[erisia]

We literally updated Muk's analysis 2 weeks ago. Both Memento and special attacking lures are given mentions in OO; Memento is pretty good but usually Skuntank does it better due to its high speed, and a lure set should never be the main set of an analysis as it will lose a lot of its luring value once it becomes standard (and is also done better by Skuntank due to its higher Speed). What exactly do you find sub-optimal about CB? It doesn't inflict recoil like Life Orb and lets Muk deal heavy damage to most neutral switch-ins with Focus Punch, while Fire Blast only works on a few select targets. Also being able to almost OHKO Mega Audino from full is a pretty decent niche. As for Assault Vest, we updated the old analysis because it was focused on Assault Vest as the main set, so I don't see this changing any time soon.

As for Floatzel, we should definitely look into whether the Bulk Up set is still relevant, and what the best overall Baton Pass set is. Otherwise I agree that the main set is fine, although Hidden Power Electric could possibly be sent to moves or deslashed somewhere. Special Steelix also seems like it should be a set.

 

[Cheryl.]

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/vanilluxe/nu/

I think Vanilluxe's analysis deserves a revamp. It's not THAT outdated, but it does mention some rather irrelevant mons in Klinklang and Mawile and mentions Sawk and Gurdurr. But the main reason I want a revamp of Vanilluxe's analysis is because of the set, which does not showcase one of it's biggest niches in Explosion to break through Assault Vest users like Hariyama. So yeah, that is why I think Vanilluxe needs a revamp.

 

[Milogop]

Hi there, I am EXTREMELY new to Smogon, so I'm not sure if I'm doing this right but... I felt that after Braixen's use in Pokken, it deserved a little more attention; so I went ahead and spent a few hours developing an analysis using the same formats as the ones I've seen of the forums. I don't have a 'skeleton' or a 'reservation', but frankly; I have no idea how to do either so I'm gonna just straight up show you what I've got for my analysis, and you can point me in the right direction.


Overview:

Braixen is blessed with a great base 90 special attack and a pretty decent 73 base speed, which allows for a decent niche among other special attack sweepers in the tier. Its base Defence and HP aren’t much to look at, but add an Eviolite and you’ve got a super-bulky Special sweeper! With access to good coverage moves like Solar Beam and Shock Wave, Braixen is a pretty appealing option for anyone needing a bit of raw power on their team. On the other hand, Braixen is outspeeded by a few more well-suited fire-types in the NU tier such as Pyroar and Charizard, both of which have higher offensive stats. Funnily enough, Braixen can utilise Blaze quite well in a tight spot, and should probably spam Fire Spin for some last minute damage instead of switching out, because switching back in without a slow Volt Switch or Baton Pass can leave Braixen at low HP before it’s even made a move.


ALL-OUT ATTACKER

########

name: All-out attacker

move 1: Solar Beam

move 2: Psyshock

move 3: Fire Spin

move 4: Sunny Day

item: Eviolite / Leftovers

ability: Blaze

nature: Modest

EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe


Moves

========


Fire spin is handy for trapping pokemon in the field, allowing Braixen to switch out without being counter-switched by the opposition. It also provides some handy chip damage as an added bonus.

Solar beam can OHKO some common bulky rock/ground types in NU like Rhydon and Golurk, but needs a sunny day setup to be able to be used free of stress. Psyshock is a backup move for secondary fighting and poison type checks like Tentacruel and Poliwrath. Sunny day makes Solar Beam usable without any charging up, and gives a handy boost to Fire Spin. Sunny day can also provide some useful boosts to team-mates with Flower Gift, or a move like Synthesis; that gains extra HP if the weather is sunny.


Set Details

========


Max EV investment in special attack and speed are necessary to hit as fast and as hard as it can, and the remaining EVs can go into HP for an extra health point. Eviolite is a necessity to add some defensive bulk to Braixen, allowing it to survive a lot longer in a battle. Leftovers are an option if you desperately need residual healing, but it's not worth giving up double defensive stats in most scenarios.


Usage Tips

========


The aim of this set is to, with a bit of help from other team-mates, dish out as much damage as possible to clear the game for the rest of your party using its great coverage, raw power and decent bulk. Braixen should be brought in on pokemon that can’t deal much damage very quickly, or at least needs some setup time first. Braixen can be used quite well against opponents who like to utilise moves like Volt switch and U-turn quite often, and break their strategy with a quick fire spin to lock them in place.


Team Options

========


Braixen appreciates Special Attack Baton Pass support from team-mates like Calm Mind Musharna so it can dish out as much damage as possible. Braixen works well with other pokemon that benefit from sunny day such as Cherrim, but is quite frail; so never switch it in to sponge a hit. Some recommended partners are Quagsire and Poliwrath, which can both be swapped in to sponge a predicted water or rock attack, and counter most of Braixen’s checks. Entry hazard removal from team-mates such as Archeops can be helpful, but is not completely necessary due to Braixen’s decent bulk.


[STRATEGY COMMENTS]

Other Options

########


Shock Wave/Psybeam are plausible replacements for Psyshock for a little extra coverage or a slight confusion chance, respectively; but aren’t recommended due to their low base power and effectiveness in general. A sleep-based special tank w/ Rest, Snore, Sleep Talk and Calm Mind could be a pretty effective set as well.


Checks and Counters

########


Priority Moves: Braixen can fall pretty easily to stat-boosted priority moves such as Sucker punch or Aqua jet, and Pursuit can be fatal when Braixen needs to switch out of a tight spot.


Toxic/Paralysis: Toxic will slowly chip away at Braixen’s already limited HP and shorten Braixen’s hard earned time on the battlefield quite significantly, and Paralysis can render Braixen unusable with its now pathetic speed and 25 percent chance to miss a turn.

 

[Blast]

Hi there, I am EXTREMELY new to Smogon, so I'm not sure if I'm doing this right but... I felt that after Braixen's use in Pokken, it deserved a little more attention; so I went ahead and spent a few hours developing an analysis using the same formats as the ones I've seen of the forums. I don't have a 'skeleton' or a 'reservation', but frankly; I have no idea how to do either so I'm gonna just straight up show you what I've got for my analysis, and you can point me in the right direction.


Overview:

Braixen is blessed with a great base 90 special attack and a pretty decent 73 base speed, which allows for a decent niche among other special attack sweepers in the tier. Its base Defence and HP aren’t much to look at, but add an Eviolite and you’ve got a super-bulky Special sweeper! With access to good coverage moves like Solar Beam and Shock Wave, Braixen is a pretty appealing option for anyone needing a bit of raw power on their team. On the other hand, Braixen is outspeeded by a few more well-suited fire-types in the NU tier such as Pyroar and Charizard, both of which have higher offensive stats. Funnily enough, Braixen can utilise Blaze quite well in a tight spot, and should probably spam Fire Spin for some last minute damage instead of switching out, because switching back in without a slow Volt Switch or Baton Pass can leave Braixen at low HP before it’s even made a move.


ALL-OUT ATTACKER

########

name: All-out attacker

move 1: Solar Beam

move 2: Psyshock

move 3: Fire Spin

move 4: Sunny Day

item: Eviolite / Leftovers

ability: Blaze

nature: Modest

EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe


Moves

========


Fire spin is handy for trapping pokemon in the field, allowing Braixen to switch out without being counter-switched by the opposition. It also provides some handy chip damage as an added bonus.

Solar beam can OHKO some common bulky rock/ground types in NU like Rhydon and Golurk, but needs a sunny day setup to be able to be used free of stress. Psyshock is a backup move for secondary fighting and poison type checks like Tentacruel and Poliwrath. Sunny day makes Solar Beam usable without any charging up, and gives a handy boost to Fire Spin. Sunny day can also provide some useful boosts to team-mates with Flower Gift, or a move like Synthesis; that gains extra HP if the weather is sunny.


Set Details

========


Max EV investment in special attack and speed are necessary to hit as fast and as hard as it can, and the remaining EVs can go into HP for an extra health point. Eviolite is a necessity to add some defensive bulk to Braixen, allowing it to survive a lot longer in a battle. Leftovers are an option if you desperately need residual healing, but it's not worth giving up double defensive stats in most scenarios.


Usage Tips

========


The aim of this set is to, with a bit of help from other team-mates, dish out as much damage as possible to clear the game for the rest of your party using its great coverage, raw power and decent bulk. Braixen should be brought in on pokemon that can’t deal much damage very quickly, or at least needs some setup time first. Braixen can be used quite well against opponents who like to utilise moves like Volt switch and U-turn quite often, and break their strategy with a quick fire spin to lock them in place.


Team Options

========


Braixen appreciates Special Attack Baton Pass support from team-mates like Calm Mind Musharna so it can dish out as much damage as possible. Braixen works well with other pokemon that benefit from sunny day such as Cherrim, but is quite frail; so never switch it in to sponge a hit. Some recommended partners are Quagsire and Poliwrath, which can both be swapped in to sponge a predicted water or rock attack, and counter most of Braixen’s checks. Entry hazard removal from team-mates such as Archeops can be helpful, but is not completely necessary due to Braixen’s decent bulk.


[STRATEGY COMMENTS]

Other Options

########


Shock Wave/Psybeam are plausible replacements for Psyshock for a little extra coverage or a slight confusion chance, respectively; but aren’t recommended due to their low base power and effectiveness in general. A sleep-based special tank w/ Rest, Snore, Sleep Talk and Calm Mind could be a pretty effective set as well.


Checks and Counters

########


Priority Moves: Braixen can fall pretty easily to stat-boosted priority moves such as Sucker punch or Aqua jet, and Pursuit can be fatal when Braixen needs to switch out of a tight spot.


Toxic/Paralysis: Toxic will slowly chip away at Braixen’s already limited HP and shorten Braixen’s hard earned time on the battlefield quite significantly, and Paralysis can render Braixen unusable with its now pathetic speed and 25 percent chance to miss a turn.

Hey there, it's great to see some enthusiasm and so much effort from a brand-new user, but unfortunately I don't see Braixen getting an NU analysis anytime soon. There's just no real reason to use it over other Fire-types in the tier like Pyroar or Charizard or the like (which I notice you mentioned in your post, but didn't give any advantages Braixen has over them). Pokken performance also doesn't have anything to do with performance in competitive 'mons so you really can't use that as reasoning.

Since you're new I'd try to avoid analysis work for the time being, but if you're interested in NU you can check out some of the resources in this forum as well as visit NU's PS room to get a better grasp on the tier. If you feel like you've gotten the hang of things then feel free to come back and help with C&C.

 

[Milogop]

Alright, thanks :)

 

[Cheryl.]

I think Specially Attacking Sheer Force Steelix should get a set of it's own, it's a pretty nice lure to stuff like Xatu, Rotom, and Mismagius as it isn't hampered as much by burns and hits pretty hard as well, breaking through more physically defensive walls like Carracosta. It isn't as bulky as the defensive set, but it has a decent niche and has been tested and proved itself to be it's own set imo.

 

[Machineae]

Concerning Aggron- I'm 100% sure that the most viable and consistent set is CB (or rock plate.) Any opinions against that? I don't think any other sets whether they be lead metal burst, RP or sub Rise are consistent enough to add into my analysis as full on sets but maybe as an OO? That also seems like a lot of stuff for an OO so maybe the lead could be the secondary set? I'd say it's been the second strongest from my experience with it.

I'm mainly asking because I'm a bit anxious about my analysis- I let one drop a few years ago and would look to do well on this one especially considering it's something on everyone's radar. Ive battled with it in like 99% of my teams since its dropped so experience isn't an issue.

 

[erisia]

I don't think there's anything wrong with putting an initial analysis for a new mon with just one common set. We can always add the rest later with additional set analyses and to be honest I think it's really important that we have at least something other than sample sets for new mons, especially important ones like Aggron. For reference, Omastar and Charizard dropped in February and Omastar's analysis didn't get completed until a few days before Gastrodon dropped (which is a big threat to all sets); mostly because there were lots of viable sets. This meant that new players didn't have reasoning behind popular sets until months after it dropped, and almost immediately that analysis became somewhat outdated. Charizard still hasn't been written up, mostly because of different people taking it over at various points but also partly because there were like 5 sets being considered at one point.

I think a good structure going forward would be to upload the sample sets, then upload a version of the analysis with only the main set being thoroughly analysed and the others being sample sets below, then the remaining sets being written up once the overview, checks and counters, etc are already on-site. This also gives us the flexibility of being able to have different people write up the different sets who know more about how they work.

Let me know what your thoughts are on this. I also agree that CB Aggron should be the main set for now.

 

[Hootie]

Concerning any of the other sets, I don't think RP is good enough because it's like a Rhydon with less opportunities to set up, worse STAB coverage, but better raw power (Rhydon also has SD too so this last point is somewhat moot). I've tested with SubRise and it's only good enough for OO. The only sets that are worth writing up are CB and Lead.