ORAS UU Viability Rankings V5

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I can't see a reason to use RD Seismitoad alongside Mega Swampert, Seismitoad doesn't even beat any of the pokemon that Swampert struggles with (both offensive and defensive Celebi, Tangrowth, Alomomola, Suicune); while pokemon like Ludicolo and Kabutops have the STAB/boosting move/power to heavily dent most or all of these pokemon, while also doing better versus general offense than Seismitoad thanks to more power. Seismitoad doesn't even really work as a one-two punch vs Grass-types because they heal to full with Giga Drain; Ludicolo seems like it straight outclasses.

That said, I don't believe Seismitoad should be unranked, though maybe move down a rank; this isn't my set, but I've used it quite a bit:
Life is suffering (Seismitoad) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Power-Up Punch
Basically trades Swampert's improved bulk and Roar for the ability to switch into Water moves, including Scald, which is actually huge in practice - for example, it doesn't care about Tentacruel because it can't be Scald burned and EQ 2HKOs, whereas burned Swampert's EQ is a 4HKO, letting them do all of wear you down + spin + get T-Spikes if they want to. Water Absorb is enough to force out Suicune early on so you can get SR, whereas Power-Up Punch guarantees to beat lastmon Suicune, the advantage of which over Swampert's Roar I can't stress enough, since it's not always easy to fit Celebi/Toxicroak on every team (maybe the former haha, unless you have a grass/psychic already). Sadly it gets overwhelmed a lot earlier by Entei/Mega-Aero, so it's basically role compression for more offensive builds who aren't expecting 150+ turn games. Still, I think it deserves at least C (this point is often made but we have stuff like Honchkrow and Yanmega in C+, either they need to drop or other mons need more credit)
 

r0ady

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Celebi -> S easily one of the most influential mons in the tier, fitting on every playstyle and preforming all of its roles excellently, also saw overwhelming support for the nom so here it is

Gardevoir -> B just to hard to justify over sylveon, who has better bulk and defensive typing, however being able to break blissey and access to focus blast leave it a solid niche

Venusaur -> stays where it is

Florges -> stays where it is

Crobat -> A- See posts in support, but long story short recent drops have made it much much better

Conkeldurr -> A- new sets have been popping up that have made conk leagues better. Bulk up is an insanely effective stallbreaker, banded rips cores to shreds, and even simple AV proves to be a fantastic pivot, Horribly out of place in b+

Noms:

Cobalion -> A

Whimsicott -> A-

Moved Sableye down to bottom of A
 
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Hogg

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We're seeing a lot of stuff rise, and I agree with all of it, but the viability of certain 'mons rising also often means that viability of other 'mons is dropping. I want to talk about three potential drops, then, that haven't been mentioned.

Sableye to A-: Sableye is still good at what it does, but I'm finding it harder and harder to justify a teamslot for it. The meta has just been really unfavorable to it, with Celebi and Sylveon putting a ton of pressure on it and with most stall teams moving in a direction where it struggles to work as a stallbreaker. It struggles against so many common Pokemon, where it takes so much damage from neutral attacks that it's forced into an endless Recover loop. The meta is so hard-hitting lately that it feels like it can't switch into anything, and I've been preferring bulkier 'mons like Mandibuzz lately. I only ever really find a place for it lately on the two extreme ends of the spectrum - straight up HO or full stall - and I just don't feel like it's as splashable or consistent as the other Pokemon in A.

Feraligatr to B+: I actually defended Gatr for a long time, because I love it, and actually still kind of like it more than Gyarados, but it's time. The ascendance of Celebi is the final nail in the coffin. It still has a really scary Swords Dance set, but in this meta I can't actually see it being more useful than something like Lucario, especially when it often loses outright to the majority of the top Pokemon in the tier. While I definitely think Gatr still has potential, I think it's a much better fit in B+ among things like Kyurem and Lucario.

...and this next one is going to have a million people screaming at me, but...

Toxicroak to B+: Yes, yes, everyone loves Toxicroak. The games where it puts in work are great. The problem is, Toxicroak just hasn't been cutting it for me lately. While Sableye becoming less prevalent definitely helps it out, I find that it struggles to really shine in most games. It's weak to so many common attacks, while not really performing well defensively outside of taking on bulky Waters - and in this meta I don't feel like you can easily afford to stack on weaknesses like Toxicroak kind of forces you into doing. This is the one I'm iffiest about, but frankly I see it more on the level of things like Slowking and Kyurem and Metagross, and it feels out of place among things like Swampert and Infernape and Nidoqueen.
 

dingbat

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Haxorus --> at least B-, probably solid B: Salamence getting banned from this tier makes Haxorus's life a lot easier, because not only is Haxorus rk'd by one less threat, it is no longer overshadowed by the one threat that truly fucked its viability over. I heard from others that its DD set was a lot better during the suspect test, strictly because Salamence wasn't allowed.
 
Not to rain on Haxorus' parade, but wouldn't Salamence's ban also jumpstart Hydreigon's scarf viability, which in turn keeps Haxorus lower in viability?
Ehhh hydreigon is going to be fully spA 90% of the time so i think they fill "different" rolls being wallbreaker/cleaner vs setup sweepers..
 

Freeroamer

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We could also not talk about hypotheticals right after one of the most defining pokemon in the metagame gets banned and wait until we see some actual games in the metagame without it(such as UU Open R3 :o) before we start saying x will be good but y will be bad.

I'm a bit late to the convo but recently I tried Florges as a support option again and I kinda liked the ability to run Wish Synth on one set(obviously WishTect is straight outclassed by Sylv) cos there are situations where it isn't such a momentum suck. An example would be where an opp leads with something like a Blastoise and you're forced into your fairy early game, you take a good chunk of dmg maybe you even get burnt, a lot of times in this situation you don't want to throw up a Wish and either lose momentum by healing yourself through Protect or the Wish being a waste cos it didn't heal anything cos the next mon who came in was alrdy healthy. When playing with it there were situations where I preferred either mon so i don't think it's entirely black and white.
 
Ehhh hydreigon is going to be fully spA 90% of the time so i think they fill "different" rolls being wallbreaker/cleaner vs setup sweepers..
And that still doesn't fix the fact that hax won't kill any fairies without sd or dd as the scarf varient relies on base stats which most fairies can simply tank an iron tail or pjab pretty easily.
 
Don't know if this is terribly relevant, but shouldn't this thread receive a new banner? Salamence has left the tier and I don't think any of the other Pokémon are really relevant in UU aside from Nidoqueen. An idea of mine is to feature Hydreigon, Mega Aerodactyl or both, as they're mainstay S-Rankers and I think both have been the top Pokémon of the tier for at least a while each.

On the topic of Haxorus; UU has lost its best physical Dragon-type, so Haxorus does have a niche in filling up the gaps that Salamence has left behind. Again, though, the advent of Scarf Hydreigon speedtrolling it and Celebi being super relevant at the moment (100 Speed) do provide difficulties. Not sure about a rise, but I'd also say it's too soon to already judge; I'd rather wait for the metagame to acclimatize to Salamence's departure before making any new nominations.
EDIT: Never mind. If Haxorus rises, I'd say to B- at most, although I could see it staying in C+.
 
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Vague

Banned deucer.
I don't think Whimsicott should drop just yet, but it is imminent. As a Fairy, yes it has a lot of competition now with Sylveon which outdoes it by a wide berth offensively and has a bit more defensive capability with WishPass + much better bulk to take on threats it's supposed to check.

However, Whimsicott still holds a trump card as a choice of a Fairy with its incredibly useful Grass-typing to check Waters which are still at their peak performance, it's influential speed tier which allows it to offensively check the many threats that are emerging with the recent bans (much like Haxorus), and the great utility it brings to offensive teams with Encore, Stun Spore, U-turn, Memento, etc. all of which solidifies it's spot as a key offensive support mon.

In terms of how the metagame is settling, yes the influx of Flying-types and the "strain" relived from Fires with the banning of Mence (one of the best checks to the plethora of Fires) all negatively impact Whims, but the utility and numerous perks it has still leaves it as ab extremely viable pick. No other mon can quite do all the things that Whims can do and its several unique factors are still enough to make it as an A mon.

There's also the fact that there are other Grasses that are becoming much better picks such as Celebi (which happens to pair well with other Fairies and brings significant utility to a team similar to Whim) puts immense strain on it. If not for the role compression and unique typing, it should have dropped some time ago. Maybe it will end up dropping as the metagame further progresses in the direction it's going.
 
Virizion's niche is that it is a Grass type that can utilize two boosting options. If I also remember, there was talk of a defensive set(?) a while back. Its a pretty decent water check against stuff like Swampert and Feraligatr, but Celebi becoming a boon here makes it needless really, since it can do what Virizion does but can go beyond more than that.
 

dingbat

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Virizion still pulls off its SD set way better than Celebi does because it has way better coverage (average coverage vs shit coverage) but ye, i'm not even certain that it is B- worthy atm.

Also I was a bit against this before, but I think it's time for Mega Sharpedo --> A-. Since my last post, Conk has become more and more relevant (and annoying af) in this meta, and it's most certainly the biggest reason why mega shark can't pull off its cleaning abilities as well as it could before.
 
tbh for SD its like close combat vs sucker punch as far as coverage goes.
special sets i believe Celebi does way better due to nasty plot and a superior second stab in psychic over focus miss lol

for mega sharpedo i feel like with mence leaving it lost a semi-decent check/intimidate user so not too sure if it should drop so soon. the reduced need for ice fang also opens up moves like aqua jet, Dbond, poison jab so ya. Also mega sharp only takes like 85% max from mach without any boosts.
 

Freeroamer

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LOL what is Shark still doing that high it shouldn't be a question of whether it drops it should be a question of how far. I genuinely don't think it's too far from low A- to high B+. The mon itself is very hard to justify over other choices(RD MPert, Gyara etc.) as well as the only playstyle it truly fits on(heavy offense) becoming a lot harder to use in this metagame.

The other one that stands out is Metagross in B+, I think that needs to move up. It's a great offensive SR option that is rly fucking hard to straight up kill and dishes out plenty of damage in return. You never know exactly what it's going to do either as diff items and sets can be explored(resist berries, setup in agility, strong asf explosions to remove common checks for a partner) which makes it all the more annoying to play vs.
 

Kink

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tbh for SD its like close combat vs sucker punch as far as coverage goes.
special sets i believe Celebi does way better due to nasty plot and a superior second stab in psychic over focus miss lol

for mega sharpedo i feel like with mence leaving it lost a semi-decent check/intimidate user so not too sure if it should drop so soon. the reduced need for ice fang also opens up moves like aqua jet, Dbond, poison jab so ya. Also mega sharp only takes like 85% max from mach without any boosts.
That's kind of incorrect since majority of competitive field has switched to using banded conk which Ohko's Hydreigon, so I don't really see how Mega Sharp survives a Mach punch. I think dinglebop has a fair point.
 

warzoid

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Cobalion should stay A+. It's still easily the most splashable pokemon in the tier. In one slot, Cobalion gives you a offensive check to Aero, Bee, Hydreigon, Mamo, Lax, SD Luke, Shark, Florges, Blissey, and more. In addition, it gives your team either a Stealth Rock user or a setup sweeper (or even both), all while sitting at the 108 speed tier. The Salamence ban also helps its viability, since FatMence was one of Cobalion's most common checks.
 

Ununhexium

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Why in the world does Whimsicott need to drop? Someone please explain this to me
Metagross is a thing Celebi competes with it for a team slot and Salamence is rip so the Dragon immunity got slightly less useful though Hydreigon is still everywhere
 
Metagross is a thing Celebi competes with it for a team slot and Salamence is rip so the Dragon immunity got slightly less useful though Hydreigon is still everywhere
nothing that stops hydreigon from clicking fire blast on it on the switch-in too so it can't really even counter on a good prediction

agreeing with whimsi drop, with recent meta trends the bulkier faeries are just better

/mobile post
 
Late on the Virizion talk and I won't even begin to pretend to have used it at all but having an offensive check to the millions of Water-types in the tier without having worry about Pursuit and Dark-types in general is a pretty valid niche imo. Crobat and Celebi dicking on it sucks but I'd use it more as an offensive pivot than a cleaner.
 
I agree with Cobalion moving down to A. While it's still an excellent Pokemon, capable of both checking threats like Snorlax and Beedrill and also threatening to sweep with SD, I don't see it on the same level as the other dangers attackers in A+: Krookodile, Gyarados, and Mega Swampert. As a Steel-type, it can't handle dangerous stuff like Celebi, Mega Sceptile, Whimsicott, or Sylveon, things that fellow Steel-types Metagross, Doublade, and Escavalier can all perform decently against. It can't even check a healthy Specs Sylveon as it needs prior damage to OHKO with Iron Head.

Again, Cobalion is still a great Pokemon. Its newfound ability to use Rock Polish / X-Scissor in the last slot of SD without having to worry about Salamence is great for it, and it checks a lot of relevant threats. But again, I just don't think it should be in the same rank anymore as the Pokemon I mentioned previously when the others are so much more immediately threatening (while they all still provide good defensive utility).

Might be controversial, but I think Heracross should drop to B+. A big thing that sells it for me is that it can't break defensive Sylveon for its teammates like it could with Florges, since Hyper Voice straight OHKOes it, and +2 Megahorn barely does half. It also obviously got a lot of competition from Conkeldurr, which has a better typing overall and strong priority to make up for its lack of Speed. I'd argue that Bulk Up Conkeldurr is a lot more threatening to stall than SD Heracross because of its much higher longevity and inability to be revenge killed easily by Mega Aero. Not that Conkeldurr outclasses Hera at all or anything because it doesn't; I actually have been seeing quite a few teams lately that use some combination of Cress/Milotic/Doublade as their answers to fighting types, which Heracross obviously dismantles. In comparison to Toxicroak, it can't threaten common balance cores of Sylveon/Florges + Bronzong/some other Steel type + Water types as easily as Toxicroak; I would say that Toxicroak has actually benefitted more from Tentacruel and Empoleon being the go-to hazard removers for balance. In the end, I think that Heracross has the most flaws out of all the Fighting-types in A-.

I'm down for Feraligatr moving down too. In addition to what Hogg said, Gyarados is straight up better most of the time as a Dragon Dancer to the point where I would honestly only consider using SD and Agility Gatr now. Intimidate and Leftovers make a huge difference and Leftovers in particular leaves Gyarados much less suspectible to priority from Conkeldurr, Lucario, etc. I think Gyarados should actually be moved up a bit in A+, above Mamoswine (Krook should be above Mamo too I think but not a necessary change).
 
I'd be fine with cross dropping for a lot of reasons, most of them being that it's named heracross and not lucario, but lets not make up silly things like florges/sylv + zong cores walling it, guts SD is still a thing it can do.

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 418-492 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gatr should have dropped forever ago, it's straight up better now than when mence was UU and I'd still consider bombing it all the way to B. It's still a good mon, but having competition fromboth crawdaunt and gyara is harsh on it as they both excel in a specific area while gatr is something of a middle ground compromise choice.

Cobal seems fine in A+, It can run sets other than shuca pivot, life orb dual dance and plate offensive both cleanly shit on quite a few of it's common checks. It can drop when Hydrie gets suspected but for now all of its main niche's that earned it A+ initially are still relevant.

Whimsicott really does not compete with sylveon at all outside of it's somewhat niche specs set, and even then you can fit specsicott and specsylv on the same team comfortably.

Shark has harsh drawbacks, consuming a mega stone and a null defensive teamslot is pretty huge, but it's notable that shark can comfortably run 248 atk/96 def/164 speed to do this while still out speeding everything relevant at +1 non mega including Maero while outrunning mamoswine and gyarados at +0.

252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 96 Def Mega Sharpedo: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's a roll slightly in conks favor to kill after rocks (62.5%) but shark teams normally run spin anyways to manage web and Tspikes. Banded mach is setup fodder for something and shark always runs protect for thuper scouting as conk rarely carries a setup move. You get rked by scarfdrie but sharks counterplay against any hydrie is hax the shit out of it so that's not super important. TL:DR I feel comfortable with shark in A-, it's got the wiggle room to adapt to conk.

Haxorous looks promising with its LO DD set right now, too bad celebi and hydrie keep it from effectively running dual dance.

Real talk though, what the hell are mscept and mbee still doing in high A?

Mcept would be solid there if it uuuh, didnt compete directly with every other grass type in the tier while consuming the mega stone, I get that it outran and blicked mence but that's no longer a revelant niche. I guess there's the trucking Evire tastic gyara core? It's still a really good mon overall but the drawbacks but the top of A rank seems excessive.

Mbee, I have never seen this do work against a well composed team piloted by a remotely competent player. Why is a U-turner that creates negative momentum turn-1 and dies to pursuit off nigh omnipresent hard counters still ranked so highly.

Not entirely certain what the everything Lucario is still doing in that hellhole we call B+, it was a top of the line threat when mence was still around to check it. Guess what mon just left forever.
 
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Hilomilo

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Umbreon from B to B-
I'm still a little confused as to why Umbreon is still in B. I've talked about it dropping to B- earlier in the thread, and am bringing it up again since as time has gone on, Umbreon has warranted a drop more and more. It just can't do it's job as well as it used to be able to. It's dark typing is terrible for that of a special wall in this tier, as Sylveon is everywhere and can ohko after (and sometimes before) rocks are up. It also has terrible offenses with only foul play, an easy move to work around with so many fighting types in the tier, to use, and it's higher defense stat may not leave it completely outclassed as a wish passer as opposed to Blissey and Sylveon, but generally, Sylveon's ability to apply offensive presence and Blissey's better defensive typing and giant HP stat usually make them better choices. If you want Umbreon to do it's job well, you should make sure that the opponent's team is either free of fighting types like Infernape, Cobalion, Lucario, etc, or that those fighting types are gone. I don't have the time right now to run Blissey vs. Umbreon calcs, but I'd be happy to if anyone wants to see some later on, but I don't think that's necessary in the first place. The bottom line is, Umbreon's drop is past due at this point.
 
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