Organizing C&C

[Great Sage]

For the past year and some more, C&C has been organized at the spur of the moment; people (and I'd be the first to say that I'm guilty of this as well) have added subforums spontaneously, whenever there's a new project or a new set of moves. This has resulted in a cumbersome, overlapping, and frankly scary wall of subforums atop C&C. Therefore, ahead of the HGSS and tier tab additions, we should think about organizing C&C into something more coherent.

The current system is, above all else, inefficient. OU and Uber updates are bunched into the general Updates subforum, UU has its own subforum, and Analysis Workshop steps on both of the prior mentioned subforums' toes. The general arrangement of the subforums is inconvenient, as well. Therefore, I propose that the analysis forums be organized by tiers, and the projects be placed together, something like the following organizational pattern:

*Contributions and Corrections

A. Articles and Analyses (If anyone has a better idea feel free to suggest it)
1. Ubers
2. OU
3. UU
4. Articles

B. Projects
1. Ingame Expansion
2. Little Cup
3. 2v2

C. HTML Workshop

D. Archives

I feel that this new system would make it easier for people to contribute, particularly the organization of additions and updates by tiers. People tend to specialize in tiers, not whether an analysis is being updated or proposed, anyways. The ordering of the forums is also more intuitive this way.


Current Issues:
Since Little Cup has become something of a Smogon-sponsored metagame, should it have its own analysis forum in Section A instead of B? I'm leaning yes, looking for commentary.

 

[Havak]

Are you suggesting that Contributions & Corrections becomes a category, while 'Competitive' (or whatever it ends up being called), Projects, HTML Workshop, and Archives would be Forum's in their own right? With the numbered Forums being Sub-Forums within those?

If so, I seem to remember some issues being brought up with using a Forum as a simple 'gateway' to Sub-Forums when Ruins of Alph was created to host past gen discussion, but I guess since it was allowed there, it should be again in C&C.

I'd think that some Forum names would have to be less specific (which is probably why the current system does work, even if it's not very well organised). For example, we do (although admittedly, rarely) get Applets submitted. So, it might be best to name the Articles Forum, "Articles & Applets" instead, for example.

Everything else seems fine, except maybe change "Competitive" to "Analyses & Articles" or something.

I'd support something like this being brought in.

 

[diinbong]

Obviously something needs to be done, I think this is a good display. The "competitive" section can remain concrete while the Projects subforum could hold the more specific spontaneous stuff. We should also condense the C&C rules, etc. to make them more organized and easier to read&find.

 

[Great Sage]

Are you suggesting that Contributions & Corrections becomes a category, while 'Competitive' (or whatever it ends up being called), Projects, HTML Workshop, and Archives would be Forum's in their own right? With the numbered Forums being Sub-Forums within those?

No. I'm saying that everything currently in C&C should remain in C&C, just reorganized.

 

[Aldaron]

I agree with this proposal, will edit in any specific proposed changes in a bit.

 

[twash]

I agree with everything outlined in your post - it must seem quite daunting to newer members. I support the proposition and am willing to sift through previous analyses and move them.

As I said on irc (just posting so everybody else knows), the sooner we do this the better. I'd really like to get it done within our HGSS grace period, because otherwise it will just get complicated.

 

[darkie]

i like this.

 

[Erodent]

Hello Great Sage, this seems like a great idea! I have a few considerations, though:

I'm not too fond of the "Competitive" section (that encompasses OU, Uber, UU, Articles), since the term "Competitive" is just too broad! I would suggest renaming this category "Analyses" and moving the Articles out of there to a new category of its own. HTML and Articles seem to be related, so maybe something like:

A. Analyses
1. Ubers
2. OU
3. UU

B. Article Workshop (?)
1. Articles
2. HTML Workshop

C. Projects
1. Ingame Expansion
2. Little Cup
3. 2v2

D. Archives
(not sure whether this category should again be divided into Analyses, Articles, and so on...)

Those are my suggestions and I feel it would be a little bit organized! Whatever happens, though, I fully support this new system. Thanks!

 

[Great Sage]

I'm leery of putting HTML Workshop into the Article subforum, because I anticipate that it will also need to serve various projects. I haven't given too much thought about how to organize the archive, but that can be hammered out in a few minutes of discussion, and is trivial anyways.

 

[Erodent]

You are right...in that case, I would simply recommend changing "Competitive". It does not tell the reader anything IMO (like you said "I don't mean to say the other stuff is "un-competitive, just couldn't think of a better name"), so even something like "Articles & Analyses" would sound better :P Up to you though - this isn't anything major anyway!

Edit: In response to Tangerine, I have a bizarre organization idea, lol:

A. Analyses
1. Ubers
2. OU
3. UU

B. Article Projects (?)
1. HTML Workshop
2. Competitive Articles
3. In-Game Expansion (I think most of the content here are articles anyway...)

C. Little Cup

D. 2V2

E. Archives

Uh...just an idea I guess!

If this is too complicated...nevermind, lol.

 

[Tangerine]

If you look at the Little Cup Forum - it's literally it's own community - much like CAP. I don't think it's a good idea to just stick Little Cup or 2 vs 2 only as a project, but we should give them room to discuss things related to those subjects much like CAP

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Agreeing. Little Cup is a community similar to how CAP is a community, and especially if it gets its own ladder on the SU server, it should get more recognition. Having it tucked away as a footnote in C&C makes it hard to find, and I get the feeling that if someone sees a "Little Cup" ladder on Smogon's Shoddy server, they might want to go find out more about it. Making it easier to find would likely provide an immediate boost to visits.

 

[Flashstorm1]

At the moment, I have no problem with the organization you have presented. My only question right now is: would analyses still be identified by the [____ Set] or [Full Revamp + Update], etc. labels that we are currently using in the respective tiers?

 

[Theorymon]

I like this suggestion. I often search for Ubers analyses to comment on, and I find it to be a pain in the ass that I have to search two forums at once just to find them all.

 

[Great Sage]

If Little Cup becomes an official Smogon-sponsored tier like OU and UU are, it can have an analysis section inside Analyses and Articles, and we can figure out another place for Little Cup discussion.

 

[Havak]

Well, considering Little Cup is now a sub-forum in Stark Mountain, it has a place to be discussed, and the Little Cup Analyses can go in their own forum section of Pokémon Analyses.

However, despite the likes of Little Cup and 2vs2 being vastly different from our usual metagames, do they really need their own forums? I'm just throwing the question out there, as I don't see Stark Mountain becoming that overcrowded if we have 2vs2 and Little Cup discussion allowed within it (we already discuss OU, Uber, UU, and NU there anyway and that's fine).

However, I still do support the entire forum for Little Cup (and probably 2vs2 once SB2 is released) discussion as well, as it'll increase awareness.

 

[Great Sage]

Currently I have this as a general timeline: we figure out everything by next weekend, get people to sign on to help with the project, shut down C&C for one day the weekend following, and get everything done then.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Little Cup does not need a full forum dedicated to it. It has a sub-forum in C&C, because we need to get LC analyses written/finalized/put on the site. That's it. We don't need a separate LC "community" any more than we have a separate UU community or a separate Ubers community. LC is a DPP metagame -- it uses normal DPP pokemon and normal DPP mechanics. I don't see why LC discussions can't happen in Stark -- just like Ubers and UU. Why is LC considered different?

 

[Blue Kirby]

Looks like I was beaten to the punch - Doug is absolutely right. There is no reason LC discussion can't take place in Stark. From what I've heard, the goal of LC is to become a "Smogon sponsored" metagame. Guess what? All of Smogon's major metagames are discussed in one place rather than spread out.

Little Cup should have a subforum in C&C for the period that work is being done on its analyses and articles (and I think I can safely assume that would be near permanent since work like this is generally ongoing). That's should and likely will be the end of it. If whoever moved Little Cup to Stark Mountain can see something that I'm missing, please let me know - but I just don't see the point of creating an unnecessary segregation.

 

[Great Sage]

So yes, that was exactly what I was thinking; Little Cup gets its own subforum on the same level as Ubers, OU, and UU.

 

[RBG]

I kinda felt that LC and 2v2 were drastically enough from OU/UU/Oubers in how they play they a separate sub-forum.

 

[Erodent]

I have some concerns. Where would threads like The Grammar Thread and Small Changes go? Will there be another tiny sub-forum named "C&C Rules and Basics" or something, or will they be stickied in every C&C sub-forum? I'm particularly concerned about The Grammar Thread, which I use as a basis for my writings and proofreads. Another problem is, where would things like CardsOfTheHeart's Pokemon Resource and Seymor's Metagame Calculator go? They aren't exactly "articles", but rather utilities. Adding yet another sub-forum for these content is probably unnecessary, since there aren't too many of them anyway, but they are also too broad to be categorized in any other categories.

As C&C is generally the place I visit the most on Smogon, it goes without saying that I wish to help this project in whatever way I can. I also support the addition of Little Cup as a sub-forum of Articles & Analyses (hooray for C&C + A&A..?) since Little Cup enthusiasts deserve their own section, at the very least. Finally, when the time comes, I'm electing to create a Simple Question / Simple Answer thread (but this is a minor addition anyway), so as to prevent C&C from getting too cluttered up by threads such as a question - Stellar advised the poster to go to Stark Mountain's SQSA thread, which is a bit far away.

Sorry for addressing my couple of problems and sounding really negative, but I hope to see what you guys think! Thanks!

 

[diinbong]

Wouldn't it be okay if these threads stayed where they already were, Erodent? There'll still be a general C&C section I assume.

There's no point in adding a Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread imo. That question wasn't related to C&C at all, and I think it'd be hard to find any that will be.

 

[Great Sage]

This is what I currently have for an outline. Currently, the most important issue is getting C&C mods who are available next weekend (probably Saturday) to commit to working one day to organize C&C to conform to the new structure. More issues below.

A. Articles and Analyses
1. Ubers
2. OU
3. UU
4. Little Cup
5. Articles

B. Projects
1. Ingame Expansion
2. 2v2

C. HTML Workshop

D. Archives

Here is what I would like resolved:
-How or should the archives be organized in any specific way?
-Could the people guiding the 2v2 project report and say how they intend to proceed?
-I'm thinking about standardizing the format for analyses at "Pokemon [Generation, Description]", with "Description" being "F(ull Edit)", "P(artial Edit)", or "N(ew set)". For example, "Heatran [4F]" or "Salamence [3P]". The asterisks would not be necessary, since they're mainly a relic from before the archive was established anyways, and completed analyses would go directly to the archives.

 

[darkie]

Asterisks aren't a relic from before the archive was established. They are for updating the front page news; the articles with asterisks have yet to be mentioned.

...I need to update.