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Alright gonna put Torterra and Mega Banette both in B- for now.
These could change rather quickly though as I still haven't gotten around to testing Mega Banette, and I feel like Torterra could be substantially higher but don't want to push it initially.
Also I'll be looking to move-up/rank a couple of sun abusers like vanilla Venusaur, given that sun is a viable strategy now.
gonna go thru the vr because a) fuck weavile and b) this list is outdated as fuck
clef should drop to a. pressured a lot by the metric fuckton of wallbreakers, total steelix bait, and half of the targets it used to have (ie latis and electrics) arent relevant anymore. not nearly on the same level as alt or charizard
slowbro should drop, probably to b+ or something. passive bulky waters are total trash in this meta for being fodder to alt, kyurem, and other dragons is really trash in a meta dominated by them, and slowbro is the epitome of momentum-sapping shit. i mean yeah. being a zardx check is cool, but id much rather use hippowdon or smth over it for that role.
banette should go to b. really cool spinblocker on spikestack, has a great offensive movepool, and a well-played banette can pretty much guarantee atleast one-two kill a game. crazy power, ghost/fighting/poison coverage and an ok speed tier let it totally bone bulkier balanacs builds, and the last slot can pretty much run anything it needs to in the last slot; twave can be used to cripple set-up sweepers and generally help ur matchup v offense, taunt helps you beat shit like skarm/quag, and destiny bond can take down an opp when ur gonna be going down anyways and wanna get a last-ditch kill. all it really needs to suceed is a talon check, such as tankchomp or something. pretty self-sufficent wallbreaker.
tbh i wouldnt mind seeing talonflame go to s, but thats too controversial for this post lol.
isa simple, im not trying to tell you how to run your project, but could you atleast update the vr sometimes on your own accord? like, why the fuck is celebi a- when it loses to every relevant wallbreaker? why is chansey b when stall is a garbage playstyle in this meta? i could help out if youd like, but i really think there needs to be more put into it other than "ok this mon won the vote, lets rank it in b-"
gonna go thru the vr because a) fuck weavile and b) this list is outdated as fuck
clef should drop to a. pressured a lot by the metric fuckton of wallbreakers, total steelix bait, and half of the targets it used to have (ie latis and electrics) arent relevant anymore. not nearly on the same level as alt or charizard
slowbro should drop, probably to b+ or something. passive bulky waters are total trash in this meta for being fodder to alt, kyurem, and other dragons is really trash in a meta dominated by them, and slowbro is the epitome of momentum-sapping shit. i mean yeah. being a zardx check is cool, but id much rather use hippowdon or smth over it for that role.
banette should go to b. really cool spinblocker on spikestack, has a great offensive movepool, and a well-played banette can pretty much guarantee atleast one-two kill a game. crazy power, ghost/fighting/poison coverage and an ok speed tier let it totally bone bulkier balanacs builds, and the last slot can pretty much run anything it needs to in the last slot; twave can be used to cripple set-up sweepers and generally help ur matchup v offense, taunt helps you beat shit like skarm/quag, and destiny bond can take down an opp when ur gonna be going down anyways and wanna get a last-ditch kill. all it really needs to suceed is a talon check, such as tankchomp or something. pretty self-sufficent wallbreaker.
tbh i wouldnt mind seeing talonflame go to s, but thats too controversial for this post lol.
isa simple, im not trying to tell you how to run your project, but could you atleast update the vr sometimes on your own accord? like, why the fuck is celebi a- when it loses to every relevant wallbreaker? why is chansey b when stall is a garbage playstyle in this meta? i could help out if youd like, but i really think there needs to be more put into it other than "ok this mon won the vote, lets rank it in b-"
I couldn't agree more and have been wanting to go over the viability rankings in depth for a while now but have been caught up in exams the last couple weeks. I intend on making a large update in the coming week or two but for now I'm just really busy irl. Hence why I haven't really been changing anything other than making sure new theorymon are placed somewhere. So yeah if you have any more input, I'll be sure to take everything into account when I get some time to change everything.
What kinds of sets are people considering with Drought Torterra? I love the idea of him getting it, just curious how it makes him that much better, giving a greater fire weakness, not having any physical moves to abuse it, and pairing up only with other grass types with Chlorophyll to abuse Sun.
Also I know we aren't supposed to talk about new theorymone but please Slack off Snorlax it's super dumb he doesn't get it and would probly bump up to A-.
What kinds of sets are people considering with Drought Torterra? I love the idea of him getting it, just curious how it makes him that much better, giving a greater fire weakness, not having any physical moves to abuse it, and pairing up only with other grass types with Chlorophyll to abuse Sun.
Also I know we aren't supposed to talk about new theorymone but please Slack off Snorlax it's super dumb he doesn't get it and would probly bump up to A-.
If I'm not mistaking, the standard set would be something like this:
Torterra @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Synthesis
This spread makes Torterra as physically defensive as possible to better tank hits from the like of Ice Beam/Punch-less Tyranitar, Excadrill, Landorus-T and many other physical attackers (especially those using the EdgeQuake combo as Torterra is one of the few mons that resist it). It has a great matchup against opposing weather setters such as Politoed (unless it carries Ice Beam, which could be useful if Torterra's popularity was to rise), the aforementionned Tyranitar and Hippowdon (beware of Toxic), taking very little damage and OHKO/2HKOing them in return. Drought gives Torterra a pseudo-resistance to Water-type moves and is very useful to check Water-type mons if necessary, and also gives it a way to replenish 66% of its max HP with Synthesis which is quite nice for a mon that's supposed to repeatedly take hits and is using a recoil inducing STAB move. Stone Edge is there to nail Talonflame, MegaZard-Y, Moltres and the like on the switch-in while Heat Rock is used to make the sunny weather last longer so that a teammate may sweep under it.
If you're still unsure about its performance on the battlefield, you can always watch Isa Simple's replay that he posted on the previous page. I hope that helped you! Ü
If I'm not mistaking, the standard set would be something like this:
Torterra @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Synthesis
This spread makes Torterra as physically defensive as possible to better tank hits from the like of Ice Beam/Punch-less Tyranitar, Excadrill, Landorus-T and many other physical attackers (especially those using the EdgeQuake combo as Torterra is one of the few mons that resist it). It has a great matchup against opposing weather setters such as Politoed (unless it carries Ice Beam, which could be useful if Torterra's popularity was to rise), the aforementionned Tyranitar and Hippowdon (beware of Toxic), taking very little damage and OHKO/2HKOing them in return. Drought gives Torterra a pseudo-resistance to Water-type moves and is very useful to check Water-type mons if necessary, and also gives it a way to replenish 66% of its max HP with Synthesis which is quite nice for a mon that's supposed to repeatedly take hits and is using a recoil inducing STAB move. Stone Edge is there to nail Talonflame, MegaZard-Y, Moltres and the like on the switch-in while Heat Rock is used to make the sunny weather last longer so that a teammate may sweep under it.
If you're still unsure about its performance on the battlefield, you can always watch Isa Simple's replay that he posted on the previous page. I hope that helped you! Ü
Thanks that was a great description! Very helpful :) . I can see how he dominates sand, and I forgot about synthesis abuse, wow what a tank. Thank you!
Okay so Torterra needs a significant rise, B- is really underselling it as a support mon. I honestly see it being good enough to run on its own for teams weak to sand offense, since it resets weather and beats TTar / Hippo / Exca all by itself, which is really painful for those kinds of teams to beat. Of course it also enables Sun teams, which makes me think A- is probably fair given that it's the Sun equivalent of Politoed. Rain is probably better mechanically and Sun is still relatively untested, but Torterra is so much better than Politoed and sun sweepers are still so threatening that it's fairly safe to assume they'd be roughly equal to one another.
Also it might be time to take a look at Venusaur and Victreebel, as their archtype just turned from an inconsistant playstyle to something very solid. Not sure if there are any other chloromons to be looking at (lol Sawsbuck?), but those two definitely need some consideration for higher ranks seeing as they're extremely threatening cleaners under sun.
Time for discussion on where the place the two new mons in the viability rankings and how you think they will impact the metagame! Plus they need to be implemented, so I summon The Immortal
+ Poison/Dark type and Regenerator
+ Desolate Land
Honestly, I can see Mega Camerupt in B+ at the lowest, its typing backed with its new Water immunity and boosted Fire STAB, along with fine bulk, Growth if you want to take on bulkier teams, Stealth Rock, Roar, and more leaves me to believe is a perfect candidate for the A ranks. Plus with more defensive spreads, it can act as a check to a lot of shit in the tier, including basically every Electric and Water type in the tier, as well as Azumarill, Entei, Zard-Y, Mega Gard, etc. Its only flaws lie in its low speed and lack of reliable recovery, however I feel that pales in comparison when you place these negatives besides its large amount of positives, so I would say it could find a nice home in A- or A.
As for Muk, I can see it in C or C+, the AV set acts as a blanket check to a lot of special attackers in the tier, as well as act as a strong attacker with Gunk Shot coming off of 105 attack, as well as fine coverage in the elemental punches and Brick Break. However Regenerator can only heal you so much, and you still struggle with a lot of physical attackers, but I still feel it has enough notable niches to be placed at C/C+.
Going off intuition, I'd say that Froggyboy is mostly right about the rankings. I personally hate the very idea of mega camerupt+desolate land because it almost completely nullifies two (and a half, if you count snow) playstyles. seriously, why on earth did those people vote it in? I refuse to use that one, though it should be a-. Muk +poision/dark is pretty cool, if only marginally useful. will have to play with it to find out what it can really do.
Going off intuition, I'd say that Froggyboy is mostly right about the rankings. I personally hate the very idea of mega camerupt+desolate land because it almost completely nullifies two (and a half, if you count snow) playstyles. seriously, why on earth did those people vote it in? I refuse to use that one, though it should be a-. Muk +poision/dark is pretty cool, if only marginally useful. will have to play with it to find out what it can really do.
Sand still fairs fine against Mega Camel because Camel can't afford to be switching into the likes of Excadrill and Hippowdon, and even T-Tar will wear it down fast. Plus Exca can just kill it outside of sand. Also Camel isn't the kind of pokemon that can just come in and run away to cancel out weather a million times throughout the match as it is exceedingly prone to getting worn down, and that isn't the best momentum tool.
As for Rain yes. Mega Camerupt, to a large extent, fucks on rain. But that's not to say that Rain insta loses to Mega Camerupt. Mega Swampert's Earthquake and Kingdra's Draco Meteor are still gonna KO the slow as ass Camel so it can't just 6-0, and you're only helping in revenging things like Kingdra, not switching into it. I also don't think it will be that hard for rain to find a dedicated Mega Camerupt check. Roost Mantine is a thing that exists in this meta, and fits nicely on rain thanks to Water Absorb or Swift Swim, alongside its boosted Scalds.
And lets not forget that Mega Camerupt also shines a lot of light onto Trick Room room teams. Reuniclus and Bronzong have already been buffed but this is the kinda slow sweeper that would make Trick Room teams really scary.
Sorry is this was rushed or whatever but I have to go somewhere in a minute and won't have time to do this all day. I intend on starting on some massive changes to the viability rankings tomorrow so if people could start flooding the thread with changes that would make it a lot easier. Keep in mind things like Trick Room and Sun being viable strategies now.
Sorry for double post but I want to get on with revamping the viability rankings, and need some opinions because my brain is dying and I may or may not be losing my mind.
I wanted to base most of my changes off of the meta games trends which I've noticed so I guess I'll throw them down here:
- Mega Steelix among many other buffed steel types and a few buffed poison types make it very hard for a lot of Fairies to function in this meta.
- The fall of fairies makes offensive Dragon and Dark types very powerful.
- Rock types take a solid hit, being weak to all weather sweepers.
- Speed wars are ridiculous with weather, TR, and Tailwind all being more viable than ever.
- Priority attacks are almost mandatory with how crazy the speed wars can be at times.
- Stall is very situational and hard to make work consistently due to the crazy wall breakers running around. Stall breakers aren't even necessary.
- Most defensive mons still doing well are those who can maintain a strong offensive presence (AV users, Mega Aggron, Garchomp, etc) or have other important niches like setting up a field condition (Bronzong with Trick Room, Hippowdon with Sand, etc).
- Ice types are really strong at the moment for what ever reason. Strong against sand and Dragons, have reliable ways to kill steels. Ice type wall breaking cores with Tailwind Support from Swanna are crazy.
- Tailwind Support in general is crazy. Particularly when paired with the many powerful wall breakers available.
- Grass types are a lot more abundant than they used to be. Mega Abomasnow, Cradily, Cacturne, Virizion and Torterra were buffed. Victreebel and Venusaur are now viable thanks to Torterra, and the only grass types to really lose a lot of viability are Celebi and Amoonguss.
- Bulky Waters are struggling due to Sun, Grass types and Mega Camerupt.
And then these are the changes I'm thinking of making:
Clef to A- - Mauled by wall breakers, fairies and stall not as strong.
Slowbro to B+ - Bulky water and stall not as strong. Too passive.
Mega Banette to B - Really strong on spikes stacking.
Talonflame to S???* - Idk I think someone suggested it. Considering it but I need someone to give good reasoning cause S rank is S rank.
Celebi to B- - Destroyed by everything relevant. Rekt by sun. Too passive.
Chansey to C - Way too passive, full stall is really hard to pull off.
Torterra to A- - Its really good by itself and the best sun setter by far. On par with Politoad.
Venusaur to B - Strong sun sweeper.
Victreebel to B - Strong sun sweeper.
Ninetales to C - Secondary sun setter.
Muk to C+ - Recently buffed. AV blanket check.
Mega Camerupt to A - Recently buffed. Crazy wall breaker. Takes on rain and electrics. Makes TR viable.
Mantine to B- - Great niche on Rain. Check Mega Camel. Other special attackers like Kyurem.
Gliscor to A - Not bulky enough for the many strong special attackers. Offensive presence not as strong as Lando's. No need for Stall breaker set.
Latios to A- - Lot of strong Dark and Ghost types around. Not as good a Defogger as before.
Mega Scizor to A- - Mauled by sun. Walled by almost every new defensive threat.
Latias to B+ - Lots of strong Dark, Ghost and Ice types. Not as good a defogger anymore.
Mega Latias to B+ - Destroyed by Dark, Ghost, Ice and Dragon types running rampart.
Mega Manectric to A- - Cock blocked by Mega Camerupt. Too many checks and counters.
Mega Metagross to A- - Lots of Sucker Punch running around. Far more checks and counters.
Mega Steelix to A+ - Ridiculous trapper. Crazy at removing key threats, great SR setter and shuffler. Often can get 2 KOs. Hard to play against.
Rotom-W to B+ - Cock blocked by Mega Camerupt. Not bulky enough for the powerful wall breakers.
Braviary to A+ - Powerful E-Speed is amazing with weather, TR and Tailwind being more prominent. Bulk Up set beats almost all its usual checks.
Mega Aerodactyl to B+ - Not strong enough anymore. Better megas. Stall Breaker set not as necessary. On par with Archeops.
Mega Slowbro to B+ - Bulky waters are struggling a bit with Mega Camerupt. Matches up poorly vs Chlorophyl sweepers.
Breloom to A- - Jolly Breloom outspeeds and neutralises many wall breakers. Strong priority. Amazing in Tailwind. Good on rain vs sand.
Swanna to A- - Priority Tailwind support is actually amazing. Great on rain. Mixed gives rain better match ups vs other weather. Talon partner.
Dragonite to A- - Dragons are really strong with more Fairy checks like Mega Steelix. Value of Extreme Speed.
Diggersby to A- - Amazing with Tailwind or Trick Room. Powerful Quick Attack for priority in all the speed wars.
Dragalge to A- - Amazing on Trick Room with Mega Steelix. Toxic Spikes are really valuable in the current meta. Few Clerics.
Mamoswine to A - Ice spam is actually really scary with this guy and Kyurem wall breaking like crazy. Strong priority. Great with Tailwind.
Suicune to B- - Shut down and cock blocked by a few more things. Powerful wall breakers can take it. Solid amount of grass types.
Terrakion to C+ - Crushed by every weather ever. Walled by almost every new defensive mon.
Bronzong to B+ - Great Trick Room setter. Steel type without Ground and Fighting weaknesses makes for a decent blanket check.
Crawdaunt to B+ - Great in Trick Room. Strong priority. Dark is strong atm.
Amoonguss to C+ - Simply not bulky enough. Too passive outside of Spore. A few more grass types in the meta to take Spore.
Conkeldurr to B - Great in Trick Room. Strong priority. AV set can 1v1 some strong special attackers like Kyurem. Tanks are strong atm.
Mega Houndoom to B+ - Sun being viable now makes it a pretty crazy nuke. Nice speed too. Dark STAB is great with the fall of fairies.
Alomomola to C- - Way too passive. Stall is really hard to pull off. Bulky waters struggle vs Mega Camel and new Grass types.
Cobalion to C - Struggles with a lot of metagame trends. Bisharp and Weavile not as good as they once were. Other darks can beat it anyway.
Cresselia to C- - Way too passive. Stall is really hard to pull off. Many strong Dark types running around.
Granbull to B- - Strong tank. Blanket check to many physical attackers. Decent offensive presence and T-Wave.
Wobbuffet to B - Crazy amount of AoAs who can be easily revenged. Strong momentum grabber with Encore.
Blissey to D - Outclassed heavily by Chansey, which is dropping to C. Only viable on full stall which is nearly dead.
Dugtrio to D - Outclassed by Mega Steelix and Sand Sweepers. Struggles against priority. Loses to all the tanks.
Chandelure to C+ - Strong on and against Sun teams. Scary with Tailwind support.
Emboar to C- - Ridiculously destructive wall breaker on TR and Sun teams. Has underrated priority.
Mega Diancie to A- - Gained a lot of checks. Struggles vs all weather. Hurt by a lot of bulky steels on the rise.
Mega Audino to C - Crushed by many buffed steels and wall breakers. Needs and free turn or two to do anything, not to easy to find.
Raikou to B- - AV set isn't nearly bulky enough anymore. So many checks and counters running around. Cock blocked by Mega Camerupt.
So yeah I think I've done my head in doing all that in one sitting so I just need a few people to clarify that it all makes sense and is justifiable, and which of these should and shouldn't go throw. Also wanna know of any other changes worth making and other trends you've caught on to.
Any reason why Tailwind is suddenly this amazing move? It gained a setter with Swanna, but it seems people don't realize Talonflame also gets Tailwind, so I don't get why the hype would start with that. I get that more fast attackers have become a thing, but wouldn't that promote such things as scarfers, priority, and TR more than Tailwind?
Just so this post isn't useless, here's a fun core.
Steelix @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy -> Arena Trap
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang / Explosion
- Stealth Rock
These two compliment each other so well, it's just ugh. Mega Steelix traps and can invalidate so many things it's kinda crazy, with a move that's almost always 120 BP thanks to how heavy it is, along with a nice typing and great bulk. So what is a good partner for something that can trap so many Ice, Fairies, and Steels, and also provide Stealth Rock to weaken switch-ins? Well it is Dragonite of course! Not only does Dragonite LOVE all those things previously mentioned, the two also have nice defensive synergy, with Steelix switching into the Fairies an Steel types that resist/are immune to Outrage, while Dragonite can take on the Water, Fighting, and Ground types that are troublesome for Steelix. Sets themselves are pretty straight forward, Steelix has enough to Spe to outspeed negative nature Gastrodon and 0 spe Wobbuffet, Fire Fang is an option if you want to beat Ferrothorn and Skarmory, while Explosion is cool to killing off Azumarills and Keldeos. T-Punch is an option on Dragonite if you want to lure in Azumarill who heavily threatens this core.
Ight that just confuses me as well over the TailWind hype there. Sure it has a nice user of it, but Swanna isn't gonna be making it all that revolutionary.
Excellent core there Froggy, and just more goes to show just how useful M-Steelix is as a trapper for dragons and fairy haters overall.
A few changes I'm still curious about is why Entei is in A+. Yes through our Theorymon slate it obtained Defiant, but that ability certainly isn't making it jump from C+ to A+ (how it seems from the OU viability rankings). IT competes with as stated, many different wallbreakers in the tier, and arguably better Defiant mons as well in Braviary (who can utilize Roost and a STAB E-Speed) and Bisharp who can utilize its typing to switch into common defoggers more often than Entei would since Latios Draco can be a sound KO with SR (although if you are running AV, which doesn't even register on the calc, makes Entei live with a .4% of life). Entei is just a big nit pick I have their myself and just curious as to your reasoning why it wasn't alongside the others in your Rankings Change.
The Emboar buff is bit silly in my mind as well. Ya he is strong and yes, I could see how TR would be buffed cause of the thing that is M-Rupt with Desolate, but why pick Emboar to be on your team compared to everything else you could use? With all the wallbreakers here as stated, I don't see a lot of reasons to use Flambade Pork.
Also feel like most rain mons needs to be reduced a ranking possibly, mainly just due to the fact Rupt is now a very real thing. Sure most of the of them should have a very real way to stop it (such as possibly having to pick Swampert to hit it with EQ over another Mega) but it still makes rain a pain to play with if it even makes its presence felt a little throughout the match. That's more of an opinion than anything cause I haven't placed an idea on if that should or shouldn't be.
That's all the opinions I have their off the top my head and looking through. Class calls
Admittedly I have only just gotten on board with the Tailwind hype. My friend who I do the vast majority of my testing with has been hyping it ever since Swanna was slated though. Basically Talonflame was never that good a setter because none of its sets ever find room for Tailwind outside of Choice Band, which is far to self destructive and you don't really want to be locked into Tailwind, so you only ever used Tailwind once a game (or more commonly, 0 times a game).
The reason we've found Tailwind to be really good lately is that there are so many powerful pokemon with that middle ranged speed tier like Porygon-Z, Goodra, Entei, Kyurem and Mega Banette (that's just the buffed pokemon), that can just abuse the hell out of Tailwind. Half the reason weather teams are a thing is because abilities like Swift Swim, Sand Rush and Chlorophyl are just so good. Tailwind is effectively just that for your entire team for 4 turns. Its so easy to just slap together two crazy AoAs or Wall Breakers like Mega Metagross and Kyurem, then whack in a Tailwind Swanna and go to town.
Swanna is an amazing Tailwind setter because it actually has a really nice anti lead or utility set with Brave Bird, Endeavour/Scald, Defog and Tailwind, and even its other sets can often fit in Tailwind due to its extremely shallow move pool. The threat of Brave Bird / Hurricane revenge killing gives plenty of opportunities to set up tailwind. Another big thing is that because Gale Wings gives Tailwind priority, you almost always get to set it up before you go down.
I think that what really turned me though is that weather is so much more common now than in standard OU, and Priority Tailwind is perfect for countering weather sweepers. Sand Stream Excadrill in sand is fast and powerful, but not as fast and powerful as a CB Victini with Tailwind.
I could be overhyping it but that's why I ask for opinions. But that's just how I see it atm.
As for Entei idk. It was so high initially due to how it carved up everything in the Theorymon mini tour. But that was ages ago and the meta has changed a lot so I'll need to look into it. That said though I don't think it'll drop too substantially. It still has Extreme Speed which is very valuable, it is also now yet another strong Wall Breaker for Sun teams, and it completely invalidates Defensive Defoggers like Skarmory while often having scary enough a presence to persuade offensive Defoggers from actually using Defog.
Emboar was a mistake, meant to be C- not C+ my bad.
EDIT: Also interested by the point on Rain dropping due to Mega Camerupt. I see what you mean. Though I feel like it doesn't really impact the majority of rain abusers. Kingdra still beats Mega Camerupt 1v1 every time, as does Mega Swampert, the 2 main Swift Swimmers. Also Roost Mantine is a great addition to rain teams that can counter Mega Camerupt. But I see that it would be pretty inconvenient having Mega Camerupt coming in and switching out, forcing you to set up rain over and over again, even if you can deal with Mega Camerupt by itself. This is particularly problematic given that Politoad hasn't any reliable means of recovery. Maybe if I just drop Politoad? Given that its viability and rain's to an extent is slightly lower (and Politoad being the face of rain), but I'm hesitant to drop the main swift swimmers and such because they by themselves aren't as hurt. Its a weird case.
With all if the talk about how important speed is im surprised nobody's suggested this yet, but I am nominating Thundurus-I A+-> S
Prankster T-Wave and taunt are amazing in this meta, as it allows it to shut down trick room setters as well as tail wind users. Thunderbolt hits most mons very hard, and it can shut down most of its checks with the appropriate coverage option, as well, it can set up and sweep with either agility or Nasty plot, and its very hard to tell what kind of set its running till late game. Making it nigh unpredictable, all in all, Thundurus should be S-Rank.
Why exactly is Terrakion dropping so low when its best switch ins in Slowbro, Suicune, and Hippowdon are harder to fit onto teams, and the things that revenge killed the banded set in Mega Diancie, Megagross, and Lati@s are less viable as well? Sure it can't take on weather too well, but dropping to C+ seems a bit ridiculous. B+ or maybe B seems like a fine fit.
What are the general thoughts of Azumarill in this meta? It's gained a hard check in MegaRupt, and its STABs are less spammable thanks to more Steel and Grass types coming up on the raise. Sun also hurts it since it encourages the use of Venusaur and other Sun sweepers. However the AV set acts as one of the best Kyurem checks, and powerful priority is always nice in a fast meta like this. Should it stay in A+ or go to A?
Also looking for a battle, can find me in the OU and Other Metas room on Showdown.
Announcement
There is a new Theorymon Mini Tour taking place atm here!
If you've been wanting to get into the meta or just try it out but have been struggling to find matches this is a great place to get started.
Hopefully this tour will also help us out revamping the VR. Lets see if Entei + Froslass HO is still stupid af.
heres a quick thing. this was written on mobile so :x dont use torterra as a sun setter, use it as a tank that just happens to set sun.
while torterra is really good because of drought, i feel like people are misinterpreting its role. its not like this thing is the new politoed, whos only used to support its team, but its just a tank that checks most weather and weather setters. using it otherwise is just a total waste, as sun by itself is a terrible weather and youre better off just going with rain if u wanna use weather abusers. basically, use sun to negate other weathers, not as its own weather; kinda like that one bw2 hellraiser team. id support venusaur to, say, c+, but implying other chlorophyll users are viable is... wrong, lol
Mega Camerupt -> B+
Muk -> C+
Torterra -> A-
Mega Beedrill -> B+
Mega Camel and Muk needed a placement. C+ seemed nice for Muk given its nice defensive typing and strong AV set, but it still has its fair share of problems which is understandable coming up from NU. Mega Camerupt appears extremely strong with its new ability to blanket check a bucket load of pokemon and wall break like a champ, but we are being careful not to over sell it initially. We will definitely be keeping a close eye on Mega Camel in particular.
Torterra was severely undersold in its initial ranking. Even without being on a dedicated sun team it pulls its weight greatly as a powerful Tank that can greatly check opposing weather. Also dedicated sun teams shouldn't be ruled out of the equation just yet, they haven't been tested much but from my experiences my Sun team is easily Stronger than my rain team as the tier is far less prepared. Keep an eye on Sun teams.
Mega Beedrill is B in standard OU now, and it seemed unfair for it to be buffed and not move up.
That's it for now. I have the council now working on the VR with me (thanks fam) and we have decided to wait until the Tour is finished before we do a complete overhaul. The current VR is almost solely based off of the 1st Tour, so we are expecting this testing to be rather influential in deciding where everything sits. So expect some massive changes after the Tour is finished.
so this team was basically just designed to be an offensive team with a good matchup versus the froslass+entei hyper offense that was plaguing the last tour. diancie was my first choice, as it can easily stop froslass from setting up spikes, while resisting entei's sacred fire + espeed. virizion was chosen to check water- and ground-types that trouble diancie, while baiting in flying- and fire-types, which diancie can really easy take advantage of. lum berry was the item of choice, in order to switch into scalds easier, and i run zen headbutt to hit venusaur, as it can weaken it enough to the point where diancie (or the rest of the team) can pick it off pretty easily. heatran was chosen for an offensive rocks setter, mega steelix check (thanks to balloon), and fairy check. latias is the teams reliable water (aka keldeo) check, ground immunity, virizion check, and all that, yknow. surf hits ttar and m-lix, and the team doesn't really care about defog all too much, thundurus is a panic button for set-up sweepers, general wallbreaker, and can just para stuff so the slower wallbreakers (heatran and azu) can trash stuff late-game. azumarill is the last mon, being the teams reliable kyurem check, last member of both the teams f/w/g and d/f/s cores, backup keldeo check, holepuncher, and generally handsome fellow. superpower>koff to hit camel harder :0
the teams weakest matchup is versus stall, but this isn't really relevant considering stall is as dead as elvis, my dude.
Hey, is m-alt still S-ranked in this meta? also, could reniculous move up a subrank since it now sits exactly where it is in regular OU,, and u-turn is a very useful buff for it as well.
honestly nothing has changed for malt to drop in this meta, and if anything its gotten better as an offensive check to entei, and can pretty much beat most of the meta if it gets a dd up. it really appreciates the more offensive-tone of the meta, considering its biggest issue in standard is a really bad matchup v stall
honestly nothing has changed for malt to drop in this meta, and if anything its gotten better as an offensive check to entei, and can pretty much beat most of the meta if it gets a dd up. it really appreciates the more offensive-tone of the meta, considering its biggest issue in standard is a really bad matchup v stall
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Entei Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 118-140 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 148-174 (50.8 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you've accidentally Intimidated Entei, Mega Altaria can't switch in even on Entei's weakest move. It's also slower than Entei, so don't expect it to tank an attack and KO back. Hell, 252+ Earthquake isn't even an OHKO, and against Entei you risk being burnt.
We can talk about defensive sets, which run Heal Bell at least, but A) that's not an offensive check, and B) Entei still 3HKOs with Sacred Fire at +1 and does very heavy damage if it decides to drop a Stone Edge as well. Earthquake still deals solid damage, but even if Mega Altaria gets a free switch-in and starts Roosting, Entei is fully capable of wearing it down.
And this is all assuming that you haven't Defogged against Entei, which would let it just plow right through the poor bird dragon thing.
a lot of things have less checks at +1 than they would at neutral, so giving some bullshit theorymon of it getting the boost off of an intimidate doesnt prove anything lol.granted altaria isnt the best entei check, but its the closest youre gonna get ouside of diancie for offensive teams.
a lot of things have less checks at +1 than they would at neutral, so giving some bullshit theorymon of it getting the boost off of an intimidate doesnt prove anything lol.granted altaria isnt the best entei check, but its the closest youre gonna get ouside of diancie for offensive teams.
It's called preparing for plausible unfavorable scenarios, dude. Only looking for checks at +0 is fine if the Pokemon in question don't have a way of boosting, or you can plausibly never let them boost. But that's just not the case with Entei.
Suppose Entei is unboosted. Also suppose that you've already mega-evolved Altaria somehow, because Stone Edge is an OHKO pre-mega and Sacred Fire + Stone Edge has a chance to KO from full if Mega Altaria switches in on the former.
But Entei fits well on Spikes stacking teams, right? So you can't assume Mega Altaria is at full HP (which makes it difficult to switch into any of Entei's moves) unless you've used Defog, then -- wait, now Entei is at +2. Or you could use Rapid Spin, which would dovetail nicely with the spinblocker every team running Entei and Spikes should be running. You could try to get rid of the spinblocker, but can you do it before Entei comes in with hazards up?
Altaria getting a Mega off and then switching in on Entei while healthy can happen, but I think a good player with a good team would be more than capable of either keeping hazards up or getting Entei to +2, both of which make it a questionable switch-in. And again, Entei's ability to 2HKO it is only relevant so long as Mega Altaria can pressure it with Earthquake -- and with Sacred Fire burns, that's also up in the air.
That all being said... I don't really know what DOES check +1 Entei on offense. Tankchomp can take a few hits from +1 Entei, and if it can bait an Extreme Speed, that's free damage right there -- after Stealth Rock damage and a Dragon Tail, Entei should be a lot easier to handle. It might be best to just try to revenge kill it with something faster that can tank its Espeeds, because it's not a terribly speedy Pokemon. Same strategies you'd use against Mega Charizard X in standard, I guess. But the dearth of good Entei checks doesn't, like, make Mega Altaria a good Entei check. It's maybe a less bad Entei check.
