Pokémon that are great competitively but suck in-game (and vice versa)

[Mulan15262]

One that I haven't seen so far:

Lucario. Sure it is a great pokemon, with good stats, a diverse movepool, and a nice typing that allows it to take some hits in-game, but it has a bad STAB movepool. In BW2, when I used one, I grinded in the battle subway for quite some time because I didn't want to be stuck with Force Palm almost all game for its only STAB (it learns its first better STAB moves, Close Combat and Aura Sphere, in the 40s). XY gives it Power-Up Punch, but that isn't so great, either. For its other STAB, Steel, it gets nothing. That really holds it back in-game.
Don't forget that Lucario isn't incredibly fast, so it might take a hit after it Close Combats. And all its STAB moves have low PP, causing you to need frequent Elixirs or visits to the pokemon centers.

 

[KingHeracrossTheBug]

One that I haven't seen so far:

Lucario. Sure it is a great pokemon, with good stats, a diverse movepool, and a nice typing that allows it to take some hits in-game, but it has a bad STAB movepool. In BW2, when I used one, I grinded in the battle subway for quite some time because I didn't want to be stuck with Force Palm almost all game for its only STAB (it learns its first better STAB moves, Close Combat and Aura Sphere, in the 40s). XY gives it Power-Up Punch, but that isn't so great, either. For its other STAB, Steel, it gets nothing. That really holds it back in-game.
Don't forget that Lucario isn't incredibly fast, so it might take a hit after it Close Combats. And all its STAB moves have low PP, causing you to need frequent Elixirs or visits to the pokemon centers.

Brick Break and Flash Cannon disagree

 

[Mulan15262]

Brick Break and Flash Cannon disagree

Brick Break is very hard to get (who wants to spend all that time) in Gens IV and V, and comes late-game in Gen VI. Flash Cannon comes late-game in BW, post-game in BW2 and XY. Just as bad as Aura Sphere and Close Combat.

 

[KingHeracrossTheBug]

Brick Break is very hard to get (who wants to spend all that time) in Gens IV and V, and comes late-game in Gen VI. Flash Cannon comes late-game in BW, post-game in BW2 and XY. Just as bad as Aura Sphere and Close Combat.

It's only 12 BP on BW2. That's not much for a 3-battle tournament that gives 1 point for win (36 battles)

 

[Kurona]

It's only 12 BP on BW2. That's not much for a 3-battle tournament that gives 1 point for win (36 battles)

I'd rather not waste all that time for one move for one Pokémon. I'd rather just get on with the game quickly.
Lucario does have some nice options, though - namely, the Elemental Punches from Platinum and BW2 Move Tutors. It's got good enough offensive stats to deal with Force Palm as it's STAB for a while until it gets CC/AS and the Elemental Punches give it great coverage for a whole ton of opponents.

 

[KingHeracrossTheBug]

I'd rather not waste all that time for one move for one Pokémon. I'd rather just get on with the game quickly.
Lucario does have some nice options, though - namely, the Elemental Punches from Platinum and BW2 Move Tutors. It's got good enough offensive stats to deal with Force Palm as it's STAB for a while until it gets CC/AS and the Elemental Punches give it great coverage for a whole ton of opponents.

BB remains useful for other Pokémon, such as Electabuzz/Electivire, Heracross and Pinsir (CC's PP is horrible for in-game runs), Emboar, and others.

 

[Kurona]

BB remains useful for other Pokémon, such as Electabuzz/Electivire, Heracross and Pinsir (CC's PP is horrible for in-game runs), Emboar, and others.

Emboar gets Hammer Arm, Heracross and Pinsir get Brick Break by level-up, if you REALLY want a fighting move for Electivire you've got Low Kick... I'm honestly not sure what it could be used on, and I'm definitely still not going to spend that much time on it. The fact that it's so time-consuming and repetitive is the real big reason I wouldn't want to do it; the idea of it only being for one Pokémon just amplifies the bother.

 

[Dre89]

Golem is pretty mediocre for competitive playing, even on NU... However, anyone who's played HGSS knows how OP it is. Just with STAB SlideQuake it can hit super effectively the first, second, sixth, and seventh gym, while also being able to tank non-SE physical hits and even some weak Special ones. It's really useful throughout many Team Rocket fights and your rival if you chose Chikorita. Also it's available really early (just before the second gym lol) so you don't have to shape your already-made team just to fit it in.

Golem was OU in gen1 and was great in-game then.

Most RBY OUs are bad in-game due to availability/movepool. Golem and victreebel are the main exceptions (bel is OU with wrap legal). Abra is ok, but you need to give it seismic toss or put it in the daycare centre because it doesn't have any damaging moves for 6 levels.

 

[Durant]

Golem was OU in gen1 and was great in-game then.

Most RBY OUs are bad in-game duo to availability/movepool. Golem and victreebel are the main exceptions (bel is OU with wrap legal). Abra is ok, but you need to give it seismic toss or put it in the daycare centre because it doesn't have any damaging moves for 6 levels.

Well you can just switch out every time you battle with Abra. Annoying but it is only for 6 levels so it's doable. After Abra evolves however it's seriously beast. Confusion / Psybeam / Psychic wrecks anything in game and also helps with the many Poison types. Psychic was already a broken type in generation one but getting the best Psychic type really early one in game is really freaking good. In other generation's is mostly the same for the Abra line as there aren't many Dark and Steel types in game to worry about so Psychic spam all day. Abra is probably one of the few that is both good in game and competitive even if it wasn't all that great in the GSC meta.

 

[Its_A_Random]

RE Lucario: It is pretty much the single best Pokémon in XY for in-game runs bar none, especially given that it can be given for free (or can be caught at the start of the game as a Riolu) and can Mega Evolve straight away. Many people use it in their XY Speed-runs for a damn good reason. Contrast to competitive where Mega Lucario was so good its mega stone got kicked upstairs by a large majority. It is not as god tier in the other games as it is in XY but it is still great in whatever game it is in, except maybe DPPt but idr what it was like back then (The fact that it came lategame and at Lv1 is a strike against it though). I would not strike against it because of a bad STAB movepool though (Power-up Punch in XY is actually decent when you get it since it boosts your attack and allows you to massacre your opponents after one or two and Adaptability makes this even more the case).

Basically I would definitely not be saying that Lucario sucks in-game XY. For the previous games though, idk since I have not had much experience with it recently.

 

[Mulan15262]

RE Lucario: It is pretty much the single best Pokémon in XY for in-game runs bar none, especially given that it can be given for free (or can be caught at the start of the game as a Riolu) and can Mega Evolve straight away. Many people use it in their XY Speed-runs for a damn good reason. Contrast to competitive where Mega Lucario was so good its mega stone got kicked upstairs by a large majority. It is not as god tier in the other games as it is in XY but it is still great in whatever game it is in, except maybe DPPt but idr what it was like back then (The fact that it came lategame and at Lv1 is a strike against it though). I would not strike against it because of a bad STAB movepool though (Power-up Punch in XY is actually decent when you get it since it boosts your attack and allows you to massacre your opponents after one or two and Adaptability makes this even more the case).

Basically I would definitely not be saying that Lucario sucks in-game XY. For the previous games though, idk since I have not had much experience with it recently.

I was mostly referring to Gen V, where it doesn't have a mega-evolution, nor does it have the best gym matchups (strong against Cheren, but no STAB by then, neutral against Roxie and Burgh, somewhat weak against Elesa, weak against Clay, weak against Skyla, somewhat strong against Drayden, and somewhat weak against Marlon in BW2, and it comes post-game in BW). It also does not have Power-Up Punch in Gen V.

Competitive is where the low PP of Close Combat does not matter as Lucario could wreck the opposing team beforehand. The high level at which Close Combat and Aura Sphere come also do not matter in competitive, but are very important in-game.

I'd say that Lucario is great once it learns the good STAB moves, but those moves come late so it isn't living up to its full potential for most of in-game. In XY the Exp. Share did help skyrocket team's levels and make Lucario hit the needed level for those moves a lot sooner, but it still exists in other games.

 

[Karxrida]

One that I haven't seen so far:

Lucario. Sure it is a great pokemon, with good stats, a diverse movepool, and a nice typing that allows it to take some hits in-game, but it has a bad STAB movepool. In BW2, when I used one, I grinded in the battle subway for quite some time because I didn't want to be stuck with Force Palm almost all game for its only STAB (it learns its first better STAB moves, Close Combat and Aura Sphere, in the 40s). XY gives it Power-Up Punch, but that isn't so great, either. For its other STAB, Steel, it gets nothing. That really holds it back in-game.
Don't forget that Lucario isn't incredibly fast, so it might take a hit after it Close Combats. And all its STAB moves have low PP, causing you to need frequent Elixirs or visits to the pokemon centers.

Return hits neutral targets harder than Focus Palm and should have max power because Luke is a Happiness Evo. Also the thing is A tier or S tier in the BW2 and XY ingame tier lists.

 

[Yami_Wheeler]

Return hits neutral targets harder than Focus Palm and should have max power because Luke is a Happiness Evo. Also the thing is A tier or S tier in the BW2 and XY ingame tier lists.

Where is this ingame tier list? It sounds interesting, I'm always looking for new Pokés to go through the game with.

 

[KingHeracrossTheBug]

Where is this ingame tier list? It sounds interesting, I'm always looking for new Pokés to go through the game with.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokémon-x-y-in-game-tier-list-discussion.3490447/

 

[Yami_Wheeler]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokémon-x-y-in-game-tier-list-discussion.3490447/

Thank you. :)

 

[stage7_4]

In-game early bug pokemon have a bad rap for how competitively useless they typically are, but some are easy to use in-game.

Butterfree in Firered/Leafgreen with the compound eyes sleep powder/dreameater combo saved many a nuzlocke run for me, and most Charmander users in the original Red/Blue used it's confusion to get past Brock.

Scolipede and Leavanny are pretty decent in Black/White too (note: this is before Scolipede got Speed Boost).

The AI can't do much to Shedinja if you play him right. Slap toxic on him and get up on the stall train (he's also great for catching legendaries. Kyogre can't even touch him in Sapphire/Emerald).

Vivillion either counts or doesn't. It's great in-game (Butterfree + Hurricane) but I think it's considered UU right now?

The others aren't worth mentioning (Wurmple's line stinks completely, so does Kriketot's. Beedrill was the only bug-STAB user in red/blue but still rather lackluster in-game due to half-poison and how overpowered psychic was).

 

[KingHeracrossTheBug]

In-game early bug pokemon have a bad rap for how competitively useless they typically are, but some are easy to use in-game.

Butterfree in Firered/Leafgreen with the compound eyes sleep powder/dreameater combo saved many a nuzlocke run for me, and most Charmander users in the original Red/Blue used it's confusion to get past Brock.

Scolipede and Leavanny are pretty decent in Black/White too (note: this is before Scolipede got Speed Boost).

The AI can't do much to Shedinja if you play him right. Slap toxic on him and get up on the stall train (he's also great for catching legendaries. Kyogre can't even touch him in Sapphire/Emerald).

Vivillion either counts or doesn't. It's great in-game (Butterfree + Hurricane) but I think it's considered UU right now?

The others aren't worth mentioning (Wurmple's line stinks completely, so does Kriketot's. Beedrill was the only bug-STAB user in red/blue but still rather lackluster in-game due to half-poison and how overpowered psychic was).

Beautifly does not stink, you jerk

 

[stage7_4]

Beautifly does not stink, you jerk

I'm sure she's very aromatic.

But she is pretty useless in the original ruby/emerald/sapphire, which my point was about the in-game utility of early game bugs.

 

[Kurona]

Vivillion either counts or doesn't. It's great in-game (Butterfree + Hurricane) but I think it's considered UU right now?.

Just checked; apparently it's NU. So it counts.
Not sure how it's NU; surely with that sort of power it could have gotten to at least BL3?

 

[AOPSUser]

I'm sure she's very aromatic.

But she is pretty useless in the original ruby/emerald/sapphire, which my point was about the in-game utility of early game bugs.

However the fuck did you beat Brawly without Beautifly/Dustox. That Makuhita is one of the hardest mons to take down. Almost Striaton Gym level, but you actually get good mons to fight him with. Your only other option is Kadabra at that point, and, well...Kadabra by Brawly...

Butterfree, Beedrill, Ariados, and Ledian are useless, but only because of the early-game matchups. Replace Bugsy or Misty with a Grass-type leader and you'd certainly consider using one of them, for at least the first part of your run.

Then there's Scatterbug which takes the "early-game bug" to a whole new level. Struggle Bug Vivillon early-game punches holes in everything. Korrina and Ramos help it stay useful too.

 

[Kurona]

However the fuck did you beat Brawly without Beautifly/Dustox. That Makuhita is one of the hardest mons to take down. Almost Striaton Gym level, but you actually get good mons to fight him with. Your only other option is Kadabra at that point, and, well...Kadabra by Brawly...

... no, there's a lot of options. Taillow and Ralts/Kirlia for instance, and then there's the infamous fuck Brawly over with Sableye strategy. Meanwhile Marshtomp walls his Pokémon to heck and Combusken has Peck. I've never used a Wurmple on any playthrough and I've gotten through Brawly just fine.

 

[AOPSUser]

... no, there's a lot of options. Taillow and Ralts/Kirlia for instance, and then there's the infamous fuck Brawly over with Sableye strategy. Meanwhile Marshtomp walls his Pokémon to heck and Combusken has Peck. I've never used a Wurmple on any playthrough and I've gotten through Brawly just fine.

Really? The first (and last) time I tried Taillow Bulk Up, Super Potion, etc. cockblocked me and I wiped.

Marshtomp has a slight chance. Emphasis on slight. It all depends on stuff like how much EXP it's gotten, it's nature/special attack IV, etc. It most definitely does not wall anything in that gym. And this is from experience.

Combusken's Peck is weak as fuck and it pretty much outright loses to Makuhita. Again from lots of experience.

Ralts is just so damn rare I never bothered to get one. Sableye sucks so much I never bothered to get one either. Also they're pretty hard to catch.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Any defensive, stally Pokemon is either frustrating to use or awful for in-game runs. Ferrothorn, Slowpoke family, and Chansey family are some of the things that come to mind, despite being very good in competitive play. Stuff that requires trade evolution like Scizor and Conkeldurr are also not liable to be used for in-game runs for logistical reasons.

I generally use in-game to play extensively with things I wouldn't competitively. After all, almost anything can succeed in-game with just a little bit of overleveling. Go Delcatty, Mightyena, Pidgeot, etc.

Eh, Ferro isn't terrible. It kind of needs to set up Curses repeatedly and initially it needs babying, but it's an alright mon in-game (in BW at least; I suspect it would still be in B2/W2).

It's definitely better than Deino.

 

[Kurona]

Really? The first (and last) time I tried Taillow Bulk Up, Super Potion, etc. cockblocked me and I wiped.

Marshtomp has a slight chance. Emphasis on slight. It all depends on stuff like how much EXP it's gotten, it's nature/special attack IV, etc. It most definitely does not wall anything in that gym. And this is from experience.

Combusken's Peck is weak as fuck and it pretty much outright loses to Makuhita. Again from lots of experience.

Ralts is just so damn rare I never bothered to get one. Sableye sucks so much I never bothered to get one either. Also they're pretty hard to catch.

Well I've gotta say, I honestly don't see how the Wurmple line would fare any better.

 

[Durant]

Well I've gotta say, I honestly don't see how the Wurmple line would fare any better.

Well 4x resistance and Gust helps. I only know this because of a nuzlocke btw. Also getting a Kadabra for Brawly isn't that difficuly and there is also Zubat for the 4x resistance.