Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

I would like to nominate gorebyss to B+. I believe that it
is currently underrated because it is able to function as either
a stallbreaker or a late game cleaner with shell smash. Even
though Muk and Quagsire are fairly popular, gorebyss can still
smack quagsire with hidden power grass and severely damage muk, too. It can be a dangerous
late- game sweeper once electric types and grass types are weakened. It has some trouble because it has a low base speed and only average special defense along with a poor HP stat of 55. It does not have priority of its own, but it is able to withstand some priority attacks, such
as monferno's mach punch due to its above-average base defense. Entry hazards and even memento support from pokemon such as misdreavus help it set up. In addition misdreavus and/ or Meowstic are able to spread speed control via thunder wave.
Here are some calculations
:+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 370-437 (90.2 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Gorebyss Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 367-434 (88.6 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Gorebyss Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 291-343 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 331-390 (84 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (It can possibly OHKO it WITHOUT boosts after stealth rock!)
You don't even have to run a silly hidden power to beat quagsire!
Also, I would like to mention that I agree with the nomination to move beheeyem up a notch.
While it suffers a glaring weakness to dark types, pairing it with monferno can help it break stall. The beheyeem can help weaken monferno's checks to the point where it can set up. In addition, smart doubling switching can help beheeyem get its analytic boost.
 

Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
Hello, I'm not very familiar with the PU tier, however I still would like to provide my opinion. So, if I say anything uneducated or stupid I'm not very good at this tier (for right now anyway). Without further ado, here are my nominations.

Rotom-Frost to S rank: From what I can see, Rotom-Frost was S rank at some point, and I think it would be great if we could bring it back up again. Rotom-Frost is a heavily influential Pokemon in this meta, and can pivot out from almost everything, and against the stuff it can't? It simply collects it's kill with Blizzard. This counteracts the argument of "It has checks and counters." Sure, things like Probopass exist, but don't Muk and Stoutland have some counters too? One of it's best sets, Choice Scarf, really puts in work as well, being able to out speed almost every non-scarfer (Maybe even all of them).

This allows it to out speed certain Pokemon that may cause problems to it, if the opponent predicts it's switch-in. "Well, things like Monferno exist, with priority!" I here you out PU community, I do, that's certainly a draw-back, however, don't you just switch into your counter? Most good teams should have one for a Pokemon like Monferno, especially when it's quite common, being at the #2 most used Pokemon currently. Back onto the point of pivoting, I know what you are thinking. "Ground types exist!" Yes, I here you out on that one too, but don't you just blow those away with Blizzard? If you feel like you are unsafe anyway, I don't think you should be in with it in the first place. If the Blizzard miss is too crucial, you simply switch out into the opposing Pokemon's check/counter, and go on from there.

Rotom-Frost also has decent and workable SpA, meaning it can certainly scoop up kills. It's a great offensive presence, and most certainly should be moved up to S rank. Not convinced yet? Well, Scarf isn't the only good set. You also have sets like SubWisp, which is very intimidating if you let it get a substitute up, while also being able to burn some of your offensive threats. You also have SubSplit, with the same idea: Getting up a substitute, and weakening your opponent while taking little to no damage. Need health back? Use Pain Split on a Pokemon that can't hurt Rotom-Frost to recover the lost health. If you are still not convinced, there's not much else I can say. I believe that Rotom-Frost should be S rank again, as it is such an influential Pokemon in the metagame.

Ninjask to A-: To start off, I'd like to bring up Ninjask's great ability, Speed Boost. While it already has god-like speed (even out speeding Arceus itself), it could use the speed boost to out speed any threatening Scarfers. With this speed, it's also able to run a set like Choice Band, allowing it to do tons of damage. This also lets it run Adamant with it's great speed, furthering it's offensive presence. Not only does it have Speed Boost, but if you are afraid of substitute Pokemon or doing less damage to screen users, feel free to run Infiltrator, which allows you to bypass all of those.

With the said Choice Band, you break right through offensive threats like supposed switch-ins like Rampardos, which takes 75% from band X-Scissor. You will out speed it, and collect your kill. However, this doesn't mean it doesn't have a plethora of walls, like Probopass and Magcargo. This doesn't mean it can't sweep teams though, with an outstanding 459 attack with Adamant Choice Band. There isn't much else I can say about it, expect why I would like to see it as A- rather than higher.

Ninjask is extremely weak to Stealth Rocks, with is a huge problem for a frail Pokemon like it. Like I said before, it also has tons of walls. Also, it is only really good with Choice Band, limiting it's ability of choosing moves. It's move pool also is not very wide, but it is workable. Those are some reasons I would like to see Ninjask in A-, and some reasons why I would not like it placed higher.

Those are the only two nominations I have for now, but if I find any others, I might add them to here or make a another post later :).

But, I do have a post or two to reply to:


Bronzor to B
-best team archetype right now is stall and Bronzor fits incredibly well on that
-it also fits well on balance and semi-stall. The role compression is amazing and it is far from passive either, let's be honest. It does everything that Metang does except it also beats Golem so you don't need a secondary check to it. And it beats Gabite. And Bouff. And Relicanth, and Probo, and Stunfisk, and Quagsire....
-Bronzor beats an incredible amount of the metagame 1v1. Between Psywave and Toxic it just invalidates an incredible number of teams in combination with partners to take Fire-attacks and Knock Off. (Quagzor anyone?)
-no reliable recovery = not a huge issue. In fact, like 80% of Bronzor teams don't even need Bronzor to set rocks so it can go Psywave/Toxic/Rest/Sleep Talk because they can easily fit another SR user. Also Heal Bell users are really easy to pair with Bronzor.
-Psywave is actually really hard to switch into lol. Doing consistent damage to everything while not taking any damage yourself causes huge problems for offense. Bronzor can just do 35% chip on anything that comes in while its partners can eat up any hits.
-It's easily on par with stuff like Solrock and Pelipper, if not better. I'm definitely not the only one who has had to adjust entire teams lately cause "omg bronzor walls everything" which you can't say about literally anything in the C ranks.
-it's cute


i know people are going to disagree because it's "too much too quick" but this is definitely a huge pokemon right now. I know it's a relatively new pokemon but that doesn't mean it has to have a slow and steady rise in the rankings. Just put this beast where it belongs
First off, that's a huge boost, going from D to B. I think that it should really stay put because right now the community is really trying to kill stall, and I it's important that we leave Bronzor down for now, while we try and at least get rid of Quagsire. While you say it can beat all of those things, so can other Pokemon. That's not really enough to move it to B rank in my opinion. But that's just my thoughts on it. If you really want to move it up, let's start with C-.
 
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Anty

let's drop
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Finally!!!!
Cacturne A+ to A
Mawile A to A+
Regice A to A-
Combusken A- to A
Beheeyem B to B+
Altaria B to B+
Simipour B+ to B
Ninetales B- to B
Seaking C+ to C
Servine C to C+
Bronzor C- to C+
Shedinja C- to D
Octillery to D

I think a lot of these are self-explanatory looking at recent trends and LTPL games, but if you want reasoning feel free to ask. There isn't going to be a full discussion list, but if you were to post it would be better talking about the higher ranks (there was discussion on Stoutland dropping and Rotom-F rising for example). Hopefully this won't be the last change, but if it is, I'd like to say its been fun hosting for the last months!
 

Anty

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What octillery do?
It was ranked mostly for its role on Speed Pass. With Scope Lens and Focus Energy it crits half the time, and due to sniper it becomes insanely powerful, and it has the coverage to hit everything with Water STAB/EnergyBall/Fire Blast. Also with speed passed to it it becomes harder to revenge kill.

Rawmelon (i think) said he uses it w/o speed pass due to vast coverage and access to water spout
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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Hi! This may very well be my last big post on the gen 6 VR, but I do have some very long stuff to go over, the first of which is the lower ranks. In case you weren't aware, the council has wanted to revamp the lower ranks for a while. They're just all over the place on splashability and effectiveness, some of the higher stuff is kinda shit and some of the lower stuff isn't that bad at all. This is what I'd do with them, relevant users False. and Anty said this list looked pretty good for the most part, but I think it's worth bringing the discussion here as well.

Keep in mind with these ranks that I'm envisioning B- as the decent mon cutoff. C+ is for mons that have a defined niche so you get more usage out of them but the niche itself is just kind of mediocre so you don't end up using it a lot outside of specific teams (think avalugg or ampharos). C is for mons that have that niche but the it's too small to fit on much of anything without very strict support (Seaking, Munchlax). C- are gimmicks that at least have some kind of explored use (Swoobat, Torkoal). D is only fitting on one kind of team, probably structured around it, and fails to do much of anything

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C+ to B-: Fairly self explanatory mons that I'm not going too in depth over, they've seen a lot more use than stuff like Mightyena. Servine is just a solid mon that might be a rank or two higher if Muk wasn't around and Krokorok's CB set has gotten some well deserved hype for being actually good at Pursuit and relatively strong. Bronzor... could definitely be B rank but I'm gonna leave it here for simplicity. I would be lying if I didn't say I'm an arrogant asshole who says about half the teams that use this thing really shouldn't, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work just fine in the correct build.

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B- to C+: All of these mons are just hard to use right now. Armaldo was cool when offensive resist berry spin could do some damage but it has some hard 4mss leaving it struggling to hit something all the time (spin/edge/x-scissor/eq/knock/toxic) and it's not hard to chip or find checks. Gourgeist-Small can be legit threatening and it's the most iffy drop but I can't seem to justify a Grass-type that is poor at checking Water-types, Leafeon, or really much of anything right now. It's reliant on then getting in and doing enough damage which it won't always, especially vs Clef/Duo. Sawsbuck is just a dedicated gimmick, it's like Leafeon but trades being incredibly splashable for gimmicks. And 2xthetap has found every worthwhile gimmick but ultimately you can't use this mon without solid team support and some surprise factor. Trevenant is complete ass whenever I see it and could drop lower but probably needs more exploration. Electabuzz is something I've defended for a long time, but we're finally at the point where the bulk doesn't make up for the useful immunities Zebstrika/Trode carry, not to mention extra power/speed. Just hard to fit on teams once again.

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C+ to C: Just faces too much competition as a suicide lead to be relevant and the offensive Spiker, while unique, isn't fast or strong or bulky and has to always force switches to lay down anything. Not unusable, but how often do you find yourself wanting a massively sub-par Rotom-F just for the somewhat unreliable Spikes? There's been some good experimentation with this that could save it but I'd want to see a lot more.

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C to C-: Butterfree was a shit sweeper before you remembered it's almost completely countered by Mr. Mime (Shadow Ball = no Psychic = nice Muk). You just can't expect it to do much of anything. Dual powder lead is hot tho. Dusclops is the only mon here I have absolutely no experience with, but I don't think anyone else does either. Cro is weak and there's lots of checks to those types of mons right now anyway thanks to how scary clef/duo/muk/ursa??? are, knock off is more plentiful than every, I'm the only person bad enough to run a team with zero burn absorbers.

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C- to D: This is just really bad and being harder to use than Torkoal is an achievement. It just can't do anything.
e: forgot to do carbink, it's just not a mon I've ever considered putting on a team if I wasn't explicitly going to build around it. Crobink has fallen so far since XY ;_;

Separate from those noms, the area between B+ and A- is a little fuzzy imo. Some of A- is kinda shit right now, some of B+ is pretty solid. I'm not sure if it's my own personal bias in hating certain A- mons in the meta (and these are mons I've tried to use, not judged randomly) but this mostly just comes from some of these mons really suffering or improving because of the bulky/muk and clef/stallbreaker meta trends. Oh and false and anty didn't agree with these (well didn't see them, they might agree anyway)

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A- to B+: Regice isn't terribly threatening right now, unlike Rotom-F it doesn't have the tools to annoy the specially bulky things running around so it's bad vs stall and unlike Rotom-F it's really slow and can't run Scarf so it's not great vs offense (RP isn't hard to check). The more balanced squads it used to be so nice against have started running Bronzor/SpD Clef/Muk a lot so they're not even much better than stall. I think I saw Charge Beam do a bit of work once but that's about it. I'd banish this mon to somewhere around Ninjask or Murkrow if I could.
Swanna is a lot better imo as Hurricane has nice immediate power behind it, but its bulk leaves so much to be desired. It doesn't come off well trying to switch into much more than Monferno and the defensive Defoggers and rocks weak+LO means that you can't continually spam attacks on the incoming spdef thing. There's just a point where both of these mons stopped showing up in anyone's teams, and above all they're hard to fit in a meta where you increasingly need even the offensive mons to fit some kind of defensive role or check some specific threat, which these don't do well.

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to A-
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to B+: Basic swap here. Gabite fits newly important meta niches by being a solid check to Golem/Monferno/Muk and the fastest rocker for offense, while Relicanth is a Water that doesn't check the main Fire-types or provide an Electric-immunity. And RP kinda blows. I only had any fun with this using CB, but wow there's a lot of other wall breakers competing with it (like Floatzel and Basculin and Kingler!). Gabite is useful, Relicanth is not.

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B+ to A-: Politoed is quite good in both a defensive and offensive role, funny how the best Water immunity is nice in a meta where almost every offensive team has some kind of Water-type. Wacan Mirror Coat, Rindo, and Specs are all things I've enjoyed other than the more standard standard tank/phys def/scarf, there's a good amount of customizability that goes into this. It'd be one of the lower things in the rank, but it's earned its place.
Beheeyem is a cool mon but anything I can say is 1. Irrelevant since other people have hyped it up so much and 2. Overshadowed by people who think it should be in A or A+. This just needs more time and reflection imo, I've left thoughts in discord about why I think it's bullshit but I think there is a ton more people could and should be doing to adapt to it. It's anti-meta, enough to push it into A-, but there's always the possibility that people stop using Bronzor+Vullaby and thinking they're safe against Psychics (not that Pig can't beat that core either :s). I don't think it needs to be quite so high but it still has a high enough threat level regardless of how it's really not all that easy to fit on teams that aren't explicitly hoping that blanket checks that can't consistently beat everything you want them to are sufficient to wall everything.
 

Anty

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Big thanks to Megazard for doing most of this and donating the likes
Rotom-f A+ to S
Regice A- to B+
Relicanth A- to B+
Gabite B+ to A-
Beheeyem B+ to A-
Armaldo B- to C+
Gourgeist-Small B- to C+
Sawsbuck B- to C+
Electabuzz B- to C+
Servine C+ to B-
Krokorok C+ to B-
Bronzor C+ to B
Glalie C+ to C
Butterfree C to C-
Furfrou C- to D

Rotom-f has always been on the S border but what really has pushed it up is the unpredictability and effectiveness of its main sets. Ice coverage to threaten pretty much every electric resist or immunity is amazing, making playing against Scarf sets guess work for many teams, then add to this the ability for it to take advantage of these risky switches with Substitute. Recently non-choiced sets have increased in usage and have been amazing as it can even beat some expected counter with the use of Pain Split. There are pretty much no downsides of running it due to its multiple roles and even nice resistances. Gabite has been appreciated more lately as both sets can reliably set up Stealth Rocks while being able to switch into a range of threats which nothing else can such as Golem and Monferno. Beheeyem's defensive Nasty Plot set is pretty much impossible to check without losing a Pokemon due to solid bulk and analytic making it powerful without much Spa investment. Relicanth struggles with all the Grass-types running about, Choice Bands wallbreaking is not as unique and other breakers can provide other benefits (especially more speed), and RP is struggling in a meta where scarfers are essential. Regice has similar problems to RP relicanth, as it is slow and no way to set up to overpower common checks like Bronzor and Clefairy.

If you need reasoning for the lower ranked mons feel free to ask me/megazard but most of them just were previously overanked.
 

Tuthur

formerly 0-7 in FCL
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I want to nominate Pikachu from Unranked to C- / C.

Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty / Lonely / Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Knock Off
- Wild Charge / Thunderpunch
- Volt Switch / Brick Break

It has access to usefull moves like Extreme Speed (the strongest user of the PU), Knock Off and Volt Switch.
It can also revenge kill almost everything which doesn't resist normal after few damages.
It's one of the few electric physical attacker with Luxray since Zebstrika lacks physical moves.
It got high usage the last monthes in high ladder: (October) 39 | Pikachu | 5.19651%; (Novemebr) 62 | Pikachu | 3.35132%; (December) 27 | Pikachu | 7.28548%;(January) 53 | Pikachu | 3.47829%
That shows it isn't an unusable Pokemon.

It doesn't deserve a best rank because of more reasons:
It miss the majority of the kill it should do witout the rocks or the spikes.
It's actually frail and has a 35/40/50 bulk which is comparable to Kadabra. And can't come on a hit and need to predict things like Lumineon defoging to come on the field.
It's slow for an electric Pokemon with only 90 base speed and it's in the major case outclassed by electrode, raichu, zebstrika and both rotom (which are slower but can hold scarf and are bulkier).
It has only one viable set. Because special sets are outclassed by the other electric Pokemon and the Pikachus cosplay's lack of extreme speed make them bad. It makes it easily predictable.

In conclusion I would say Pikachu has only one set, but isn't outclassed by any Pokemon of the tier. With cheap damages and hazards (especially sticky web) it can be a strong cleaner and revenge killer.

Sorry for my poor english, which isn't my mother tongue.
 

Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
is a Contributor to Smogon
I want to nominate Pikachu from Unranked to C- / C.

Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty / Lonely / Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Knock Off
- Wild Charge / Thunderpunch
- Volt Switch / Brick Break

It has access to usefull moves like Extreme Speed (the strongest user of the PU), Knock Off and Volt Switch.
It can also revenge kill almost everything which doesn't resist normal after few damages.
It's one of the few electric physical attacker with Luxray since Zebstrika lacks physical moves.
It got high usage the last monthes in high ladder: (October) 39 | Pikachu | 5.19651%; (Novemebr) 62 | Pikachu | 3.35132%; (December) 27 | Pikachu | 7.28548%;(January) 53 | Pikachu | 3.47829%
That shows it isn't an unusable Pokemon.

It doesn't deserve a best rank because of more reasons:
It miss the majority of the kill it should do witout the rocks or the spikes.
It's actually frail and has a 35/40/50 bulk which is comparable to Kadabra. And can't come on a hit and need to predict things like Lumineon defoging to come on the field.
It's slow for an electric Pokemon with only 90 base speed and it's in the major case outclassed by electrode, raichu, zebstrika and both rotom (which are slower but can hold scarf and are bulkier).
It has only one viable set. Because special sets are outclassed by the other electric Pokemon and the Pikachus cosplay's lack of extreme speed make them bad. It makes it easily predictable.

In conclusion I would say Pikachu has only one set, but isn't outclassed by any Pokemon of the tier. With cheap damages and hazards (especially sticky web) it can be a strong cleaner and revenge killer.

Sorry for my poor english, which isn't my mother tongue.
There are several reasons why Pikachu should be left unranked.
  • Pikachu's bulk is 35/30/40, meaning it won't live a single hit in most cases.
  • The biggest flaw of Pikachu is that it HAS to run Light Ball in order to do any worthwhile damage, meaning it cannot hold a further boosting item like Life Orb, Eviolite, or a Choice Scarf.
    • That's why it outclassed and left unranked. Even Luxray can tank a few neutral hits and it has a higher attack stat than Pikacu after Guts
  • It cannot run Volt Tackle, its strongest Electric-move that "sets it apart" from other Electric-Types with Extreme Speed, the Priority move in needs to beat opposing Scarfers and Base 91+ Speed mons.
    • Pikachu does not even receive STAB, making it a relatively weak choice for beating even frail things like ScarfMime and Chatot
  • You mentioned Pikachu having above average usage ranks, but usage ranks are not a good indication of the viability of a Pokemon
    • Pokemon like Simipour and Jumpluff are not used very much, but have greater viability than say Ampharos, who has much great usage.
  • Pikachu also fails to beat any notable Electric-Checks
Overall, Pikachu needs to be left unranked because of its frailty, subpar attacking stats even with Light Ball, and lack of access to the 2 moves it needs most.
 
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Something else about Pikachu - even with a Light Ball, it's still not that powerful. Most of PU's offensive Pokémon can hit just as hard if not harder.

252 SpA Light Ball Pikachu Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 129-153 (31.4 - 37.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Rotom-Frost Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 133-156 (32.4 - 38%)

252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 258-304 (62.9 - 74.1%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 276-325 (67.3 - 79.2%)
 
C --> C+

This was actually nominated a bit ago to drop, but I've been testing with it for the better part of a week on a few stall teams and I've really come to like it. I don't like the Cro set very much, the set I've really come to like is a rest talk set with Toxic and Seismic Toss. I mostly have been slapping this on teams as a blanket check to Muk as it beats every single Muk set; duslcops pp stalls cromuk and takes negligible damage from even CB sets making it a very reliable answer to Muk when supported with heal bell. Aside from just walling Muk its very useful glue for stall because of its natural bulk you can use it as a secondary check to things like Monferno, Floatzel, Rotom-f, and many other random mons that you might need it to take a hit from in a pinch.

One thing I didn't think of when I started building however is that Clops in itself is a win condition against stall, as shown in this replay I had in a tour match. I was able to use Clops' pressure ability to help stall out his Altaria's heal bells and roost, giving me the edge in the match and a 6-6 victory because my opponent saw that he was running out of PP fast and was fighting a losing battle.

And then here's a match with a very early version of the team that shows off how it beats Cromuk (warning, very long replay.) by PP stalling it out.

EDIT: evidently Pressure only works on attacking moves against you, so in the first replay I wasn't actually stalling anymore roost pp's then normal. Still leaving it in because its a good replay.
 
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Want to make some couple last minute nominations of my own, based on my experience using these mons and from watching ltpl/imopu games.


Altaria B+ -> A-

First off I want to start with a mon that I've already nommed in the past which is Altaria. Altaria is a great Defensive option because of the multitude of useful resistances like Fire, Grass and Fighting which allow it to take on top threats like Leafeon, Monferno and Combusken. Not only that but it can also even be a good check to pokemon like Pawniard, being able to speed creep and hit it with Flamethrower. Altaria has seen a rise in usage lately because of how well it can support Bronzor having access to Heal Bell and not being complete set-up fodder with Haze. Overall I think Altaria's near necessity to be on Stall and its splashibility to be on Balance warrant it to finish the generation in A-.



Ursaring B -> B+

Next up is Ursaring. I honestly find it weird that it is in B in the first place because the regular Quick Feet Ursaring set is actually pretty good but the new-ish innovation in Bulk Up Ursaring has opened more doors for this mon and made it a little bit more unpredictable. As seen here, Bulk Up Ursaring can put in a lot of work vs defensive teams and it's hard to stop once it has a set up. Its ability to be a specially sponge is very handy when teambuilding allowing it to be a back up check to common Electric, Psychic and Ice types.



Combusken A -> A+

This may actually be the best cleaner in the tier right now due to how hard it is to check. Because of Combusken, most of the time Offensive is forced to run either Scarf Mime, Grumpig or an Aqua Jet user which in itself shows how good this mon can be (If you don't miss). In my opinion the only thing stopping this mon from being S-Rank is the prevalence of Muk and Clefairy being good switch ins because other 'counters' like Altaria and Pelipper take a ton from HP Ice/HP Electric respectively. There's also the elephant in the room which is Baton Pass which has seen some discussion over the past couple of months and Combusken being the best Speed Pass user in the tier and popularising the 'Speed Pass' archetype immensely only helps it's case for a rise.



Beheeyem A- -> A/A+

I've been using this mon a lot recently since bulky Nasty Plot sets began to emerge during ltpl being used by good players like Teddeh and HJAD, I had to see first hand how good it actually is and it didn't disappoint. When used correctly Beheeyem is huge threat to bulkier teams often grabbing at least 1/2 kills in a lot of circumstances before it goes down. Beheeyem can invest in both defences making it flexible for teambuilding and run numerous coverage moves in Thunderbolt, Signal Beam and Shadow Ball depending on what you want to hit. Nasty Plot boost it's already high SpA stat to great levels making it almost impossible to counter after a +2 boost.





Stunfisk A- -> B+/B

Now for the downgrades, starting with Stunfisk. This mon doesn't see a lot of usage anymore in this meta and for good reason, Stunfisk being a Ground type with the inabilty to stop Muk is disastrous and makes it require a lot more support to use. This in turn causes it to be harder to fit on teams and makes a lot of other rockers like Golem overshadow it. The rise of bulky set-up sweepers such as Bouffalant and Beheeyem also hinder it as it can become set-up fodder to these mons which will often result in you losing a pokemon.



Roselia A- -> B+

Lastly I'm going to nominate Roselia for a downgrade. Roselia's success in early/mid ORAS has plummeted, this is largely because for a lot of teams a SpD Grass type isn't needed anymore and role compression is very valuable in this meta. Steel types are more common than ever due to the popularity of Muk and people now rely mons such as Muk and Clefairy to blanket check Electric and Water types. This leaves Roselia with only a couple of niches, Spikes is probably the biggest one as Roselia is still a great defensive Spike setter despite the hindrances of the meta and even then it still has to compete with Quilladin. Overall I think these qualities make it deserving of a trip down to B+.
 
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SergioRules

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is a Community Contributor
Never posted for VR before so I figured I'd try at least once before ORAS ends.

Articuno A- -> B+
With the rise of Muk and a general trend towards bulky offense and stall in the meta, a lot of teams have begun running more powerful breakers, and unfortunately for Articuno that means it has lost its place on a lot of teams. Its 4x Stealth Rock weakness has always been a hindrance for its role as a defogger meaning teammates must be relied on to get rid of hazards, and its lack of power/a Special Attack boosting move means many other special attackers can do much more. The rise of Muk has also made the rise of defensive Steel types like Bronzor, Mawile, and Probopass and guess what type resists both of Articuno's STAB moves. I think Articuno is just really difficult to fit on teams nowadays.

e: I hate to go back and edit a post like this, but I completely forgot how good of an ability Pressure is vs stall so most of my claims on that issue aren't as applicable, but I still believe that Cuno isn't as useful as it has been since Muk has risen, even if paired with something to specifically beat it.

I take back everything bad I've said about Cuno. Just because a mon can't beat Muk or steels doesn't mean it's absolute trash.
 
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I disagree. With minimal support, Articuno pressures a lot of balanced and offensive builds since not much can out right kill it and most things drop to either hurricane or ice coverage. Also options like subroost stalling make it difficult for mons such as Mawile or Bronzor to stay in and repeatedly take on cuno. Also, to use it optimally you'll want to pair it with Pawniard, Gabite, Golem, Krok or something similar to pressure those mons you mentioned. All of the above are easy to fit on just about any team and doesn't make it difficult at all to build around Cuno.
 
That replay was impressive but why would i run Bulk Up Ursaring over Munchlax? The bear hits harder but Munchlax is so much bulkier if you can avoid Knock Off.
 
That replay was impressive but why would i run Bulk Up Ursaring over Munchlax? The bear hits harder but Munchlax is so much bulkier if you can avoid Knock Off.
Its much less passive then Munchlax because it doesn't need to get off 2 boosts in order to do meaningful damage. Also one of the big thing is how well Guts synergies with Rest Talk given it procs whenever you're resting, which I'd argue is a lot more valuable then the Thick Fat that Munchlax brings given ice and fire types aren't exactly running the meta currently.

Also its only really bulkier if you manage to keep your Eviolite, which given how common Knock Off is and how passive Munchlax is, its easier said then done. Ursaring is a lot easier to slap on teams as you don't have to keep Munchlax's weaknesses of being extremely passive and weak to knock off into consideration. Ursaring comes with very little down sides on its own making it a lot more splashable. I'd argue you'd only want to pick up Munchlax if your team desperately needs the ice/fire resist.
 
Also on the Cuno discussion, a minor nitpick but... I dunno if Defog is really viable on Cuno, considering that receives 50% damage from the most common Hazard... sure, it can roost it on something that it could scare but... then? What's gonna do against the counter/check coming in? Defog and die while the rocker gets rocks later and accomplishing nothing or switch out and lose another 50% to come in again?

Then, getting past that, Cuno still pressures a lot of threats and its checks or counters usually share common checks (like those mentioned by RawMelon earlier) AND are kinda passive (Offensive Mawile will not enjoy switching repeatedly onto Cuno's Hurricane or even Hurricane + Ice Beam). Ergo, after removing them fron play, it will be pretty difficult for bulky teams to avoid being PP stalled or for offensive teams to OHKOit or handling one or two hits...

So, I truly think it still deserves A-

See ya!
 
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ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
Leafeon to S

Haven't been playing much ORAS PU lately, but this is a nomination that should have been done a while ago but never was for some reason. Simply put, Leafeon is one of the most dominant pokemon in PU, and for good reason. It is very splashable, and can fit on nearly every kind of team because its great attack and solid speed tier make it one of the best physical attackers in the tier. Not only this- it is an offensive pokemon that can easily switch into Golem, as well as any slower Ground-type attacker. Leafeon is also highly versatile, being able to run many different sets who all can consistently put work (none of them are pure "niche" or "lure" sets). This includes various types of Swords Dance sets, Choice Band, Offensive Toxic, and Choice Scarf. Between these three options, Leafeon is able to fit on almost every kind of team archetype. Not only this, but each set has different checks and counters. For example, Band Leafeon can 2HKO Muk with Return after rocks, Scarf is able to revenge kill Floatzel instead of the other way around, and Swords Dance are able to bust through "counters" like Altaria or Monferno with just a bit of support, or even a Natural Gift coverage. ALL of its counters are worn down at least some degree by Knock Off, and Leafeon just happens to be the best Knock Off user in the tier. Despite not being all that easy to counter, it still centralizes the tier fairly heavily because we want to have at least multiple solid checks on each team. It's part of the reason why pokemon like Monferno, Mawile, Muk, and Rapidash are so popular. Leafeon is no Stoutland; it doesn't have the option to get a kill nearly every time it comes in, but it sets itself apart by being more unpredictable and fitting on many more teams. Overall, Leafeon is simply one of the best pokemon in the tier and fully deserves the S ranking.
 
Hi I haven't played much Pokemon recently but.....

Dewgong - Unranked -> D
Personally, I do not think Dewgong should be that low. Yes, it is pretty trashy, but it can have a nice niche with hail:

Dewgong @ Icy Rock
Ability: Ice Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hail
- Blizzard
- Surf
- Protect/Signal Beam/Hidden Power

Hail, then Blizzard or Surf spam. The hail also heals Dewgong with Ice Body. I've never tried (at least not yet) running a hail-based team in PU. Hail, though, benefits Rotom-F (Blizzard accuracy), Articuno (Snow-cloak and Blizzard), Regice (Ice Body and Blizzard), Cryongal (Blizzard), Lapras (more Blizzard), Avalugg (Ice Body), Beartic (Snow Cloak, Slush Rush [like Swift Swim, but with hail]), Glailie (Blizzard, Ice Body). Dewgong can pair well with Vanniluxe, who creates Hail with its ability.

All in all, Dewgong has its niche advantages, and does not deserve to be sitting there as Unranked.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
De wrong has stats of hp 90 at 70 Def 80 spa 70 spd 95 SpD 70

Walrein has all the same moves You listed plus abilities and stats of hp 110 Atk 80 def 90 spa 95 Spd 90 spd of 65

So it's a tick slower and it wasn't ranked
 
Hi I haven't played much Pokemon recently but.....

Dewgong - Unranked -> D
Personally, I do not think Dewgong should be that low. Yes, it is pretty trashy, but it can have a nice niche with hail:

Dewgong @ Icy Rock
Ability: Ice Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hail
- Blizzard
- Surf
- Protect/Signal Beam/Hidden Power

Hail, then Blizzard or Surf spam. The hail also heals Dewgong with Ice Body. I've never tried (at least not yet) running a hail-based team in PU. Hail, though, benefits Rotom-F (Blizzard accuracy), Articuno (Snow-cloak and Blizzard), Regice (Ice Body and Blizzard), Cryongal (Blizzard), Lapras (more Blizzard), Avalugg (Ice Body), Beartic (Snow Cloak, Slush Rush [like Swift Swim, but with hail]), Glailie (Blizzard, Ice Body). Dewgong can pair well with Vanniluxe, who creates Hail with its ability.

All in all, Dewgong has its niche advantages, and does not deserve to be sitting there as Unranked.
Couple things. This is ORAS viability and hail isn't a viable playstyle in ORAS and slush rush mons aren't available in this gen so they are null points. Second thing, Ice body is not a worthy ability to run this mon over Lapras with Water Absorb especially since Dewgong has to self set and has to forego an item to do so reliably. Lastly, Dewgong's only real niche over Lapras is encore.
 
Seaking C to B
Seaking is actually a prety good pokemon.
One of the best Rotom-Frost Check SubSplit and Scarf,he check many strong electric mon.
He are very good in Bulky Offense the core mawile+seaking work very well on this.
The coverage is just resisted by Fat Water Mon many mon dislike lose item whit Knok Off like vullaby/tangela/roselia ect.
 
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Seaking C to B
Seaking is actually a prety good pokemon.
One of the best Rotom-Frost Check SubSplit/SubWisp and Scarf,he check many strong electric mon.
He are very good in Bulky Offense the core mawile+seaking work very well on this.
The coverage is just resisted by Fat Water Mon many mon dislike lose item whit Knok Off like vullaby/tangela/roselia ect.
While I do agree that Seaking can pretty much wall scarf Tom, it will still have trouble to wall much else besides Floatzel, Zebby and a few others. Also I dunno how it can deal with sub wisp Tom, since a burn will be pretty bad for Seaking in general, reducing its longevity drastically and allowing Monferno to even 2HKO 252HP/+252Def Seaking... if the Maw+King core works it's more because of Maw dealing with Muk and Stout than King doing a lot. Oh, and that core will receive massive damage from both Monferno and Combusken which are both pretty frequently used.

Sure, it can be put higher, but a jump that drastic should have at least a specific set and replays showcasing what it can do. I feel like it can go togo C+, maybe B- in a stretch, but no higher than that.

See ya!
 

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