Research Week: SM Edition [Done]

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Mac3

im reminded theres no finer place to kiss
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I will participate as RW10 pif

Quick request to eht and Ark - can we use Poison Point Nidoqueen? It's just a viable option in favor of Sheer Force if you're using a defensive set because:

1) You probably are not abusing Life Orb.
2) Earthquake hits CM Raikou much harder in exchange for not getting Bisharp and Cobalion as well.
3) Poison Point obviously can come in handy.

Not saying I'm. Actually going to use it lol, I just want to keep my options open.
everyone else just stop laddering, he'll use his op stall team and get to like 1700
 

Amane Misa

Bring Them Home Now!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

Sticky Web Shuckle
We all can agree that Shuckle is a really unique Pokémon. On one hand, it is one of the two Pokémon that have access to both Stealth Rock and Sticky Web, making it an exceptional lead and is quite bulky. Not only that, it has support options such as Encore and Toxic. It can Encore an opposing Rapid Spin user or Defog user, supporting its teammates, set-up sweepers. It has a great ability that every suicide lead wishes to get, Sturdy, means it does not have to sacrifice its item slot to survive any one hit.

On the other hand, being honest, it's a pretty bad lead. It's really passive and the only thing keeping it from being a complete set-up fodder is Encore (even then, you have to predict perfectly since Shuckle is slow as hell). Its only two forms of actually damaging the opponent is by passive damage dealt by Toxic or Infestation, which means that Pokémon can set-up a free Substitute on it. Not only that, it's really weak to taunt users. Mental Herb is a mandatory item on Shuckle, to guarantee at least one form of hazard.

I have built a hyper offense featuring Shuckle as a suicide lead. Sticky Webs allowed me to use slower threats such as Dragon Dance Crawdaunt and Hoopa. In most cases, Shuckle got me at least one form of hazard. In other cases, it was just flinched to death by the common Iron Head and its weakness to it or was beaten by a hazard remover. Over all, as a suicide lead, I really feel like Smeargle out classes Shuckle. It is faster, can counterplay Taunt (with Magic Coat) and can put the opposing Pokémon to sleep (most of the time).

Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Encore
- Infestation

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 133-156 (54.5 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (if it gets the flinch, you can say goodbye to hazards unless you somehow get Shuckle in on another Pokémon)

Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Encore
- Infestation

Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet

Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch

Hoopa @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

Cobalion @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish

Latias @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Healing Wish

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-562140919
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-562524223
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-562711482




Toxic Spikes Nidoqueen
Nidoqueen is one of the only four Toxic Spikes setters relevant to UU (Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Forretress and Tentacruel). Unlike Nidoking, Nidoqueen is bulkier, and Nidoqueen is not as passive as Forretress and Tentacruel and its STAB, coverage moves and Sheer Force allow it to check a lot of threats, all which make Nidoqueen a great Toxic Spikes setter every hazard-stacking team should consider using.

Even though Nidoqueen's attacks are boosted by Sheer Force, she still has a pitiful 75 base special attack, which means unless Nidoqueen has full special attack with a boosting nature, she won't do a lot of damage unless it hits for super effective damage, especially if you invest in bulk only. Not only that, she is weak to common types, her bulk is average and her only form of recovery is Black Sludge, which gets knocked off by Bisharp, a Pokémon that Nidoqueen is meant to check.

Over all, I had a great experience with Nidoqueen. I used a really bulky variant on stall and it did its job pretty well. The only thing that bugged me is the fact Nidoqueen doesn't have a reliable recovery and that its item often gets knocked off, but it is still somewhat managable with Wish support.

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Sludge Wave / Thunderbolt

Nidoqueen @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Roar / Sludge Wave
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power



Jellicent
I love Jellicent. USE IT! Jellicent is one of the most annoying Pokémon to face against. Its typing, bulk and movepool allow it to stallbreak and take on so many threats including Scizor, Mienshao, Entei and more. Not only that, it has a reliable recovery every wall wishes for, Recover, and is able to beat the common Rapid Spinners, making it an exceptional member of hazard stacking teams.

Its typing, while being great, leaves it with a weakness to the so-common Knock Off, a move almost every Fighting type (what it is supposted to switch into) gets. Also, its speed isn't that impressive, making Taunt really good only on slower Pokémon.

It was really fun to use Jellicent. It is a really fun stallbreaker, it beats most Rapid Spin users and has an amazing synergy along with Nidoqueen, as it keeps Nidoqueen's Toxic Spikes on the field by blocking rapid spin and takes Water, Ice and most Ground attacks aimed at Nidoqueen, while Nidoqueen takes on Electric attacks with ease and can beat grass types who threaten Jellicent.

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Recover
- Hex / Scald

Nidoqueen @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Roar
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power

Jellicent (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Hex

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Volt Switch

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Foul Play
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Substitute
- Scald

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-562697525
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-562811975 (vs the masterpiece itself)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-562805452
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-562975141 (vs another masterpiece)
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
upload_2017-4-20_19-56-38.png



Shiny Nidoking (Nidoqueen) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic Spikes
- Flamethrower

Nothing in particular to say except the moves can be changed depending on team needs, Flamethrower is mainly for Scizor and stupid Forretresses.


Shiny Nidoking (Nidoqueen) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Toxic Spikes
- Ice Beam

Again, Life Orb is more conventional but I am quite weak to Ground on my team so Air Balloon and Ice Beam was just an attempt to address that. The EVs can be changed too if you do not find out speeding say Volcanion very useful.


In this short post I will argue that the above defensive Toxic Spikes Nidoqueen set is a niche option that should only be used on stall or bulky teams while the other Toxic Spikes set struggles to be useful at all ever because:
  • On set 1, using two hazards on Nidoqueen is usually ineffective unless it has massive support because it often only has the health to set up one hazard - normally Stealth Rock
  • On set 2, Nidoqueen's Toxic Spikes has limited utility because of the high number of grounded Poison types and competition Nidoqueen faces

Regarding set 1:
Unless Nidoqueen has two main forms of support, it will be unable to consistently set up the hazards it so desperately wants as a source of damage Specifically, that support is 1) Wish 2) Back up walls. Wish is needed to keep Nidoqueen healthy because as a slow defensive Pokemon that sets up hazards, it will invariably be taking significant amounts of damage every game. Back up walls are needed for a similar and related reason - Nidoqueen cannot reliably counter threats /and/ set up hazards throughout the battle. In general, hazard setters are not often the best primary walls because they need to focus on setting up hazards and cannot reliably switch in on say Scizor or Terrakion.

Ghost or spinblocking support is not as needed as a 4th Generation player might expect because anti-Toxic Spikes support is often not found in Rapid Spin users, but grounded Poison Pokemon and Defog.

The benefits Nidoqueen brings are many - a Volt Switch immunity, Toxic Spikes absorption, a good (if also last resort) counter to some aforementioned threats and of course hazards itself. Because these benefits are particularly critical for defensive teams which can also easily provide the necessary support, I strongly recommend set 1 Nidoqueen to be limited to these teams.

Regarding set 2:
While it might seem intuitive that Toxic Spikes can be useful for teams with abusers like Substitute Kyurem (which I ran this week), the sheer amount of grounded Poisons in the tier makes it much more difficult to abuse Toxic Spikes. Why is this more problematic for set 2 than set 1? The primary reason is set 1 has much greater longevity with support, as well as passive recovery, than set 2 and can therefore stick around longer and try to outlast opposing grounded Poisons. Set 2 has a relatively short lifespan - very comparable to Mega Blastoise - because it is a relatively bulky Pokemon that is used to check a variety of threats, but only has the health to do so once or twice.

In addition to this weakness, Nidoqueen faces severe competition for Toxic Spikes from Tentacruel. Tentacruel provides what would often be considered more desirable resistances in Water and Ice stopping for instance Keldeo a lot better than Nidoqueen. More importantly, Tentacruel packs Rapid Spin which is obviously more desirable on a Toxic Spikes team than Defog, so in terms of hazard control Tentacruel has a leg up over Nidoqueen and can save space.

Replays and Final Thoughts
Here is an example of set 1 Nidoqueen helping give pokemonisfun (me) a massive match up advantage over an opposing stall team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-559326118

I thought I should include a replay with my actual RW name so here's one (of only two saved lol) with set 1
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-563521603

Unfortunately I have not saved any replays with set 2 and while I have a few replays of Tentacruel over Nidoqueen which I could argue demonstrates why Tentcruel is often better than Nidoqueen on more offensive builds, I'm not certain they are representative of that.

If you're interested, the vast majority of my games have Nidoqueen or Tentacruel on three alts: "pokemonisfun" "RW10 pif" and "pif".

To summarize, I recommend that you look carefully at your team before deciding to use Nidoqueen as it is both reliant on synergy (is Toxic Spikes useful for my team?) and more importantly metagame trends (why is everyone running Amoonguss and Gengar?).

Feel free to post back with any thoughts on my comments.
 
gr8 read pif!
my only thought would be if you considered pairing nidoqueen with a scarf or band krook to try and trap/eliminate amoongus and gengar, altho i guess at that point ur stacking water weakness as well as focusing too much on supporting t-spikes rather than having t-spikes support ur team hmmm
 
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esche

Frust kommt auf, denn der Bus kommt nicht
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
hi so i didn't bother laddering too much this week bc i already used jelli and nido quite extensively before but i'm still gonna share my thoughts ofc

i felt that jellicent and nidoqueen actually make a very decent core when combined with klefki. this makes a solid defensive backbone for bulky offensive builds and provides 3 forms of hazards to work with. needless to say, i used double hazards on nido.

there's p much only one jellicent set that i run atm which is taunt/hex/wow with colbur and oh lord this thing is so good. having a check to keldeo, scizor, infernape, volcanion and aero in one slot is extremely valuable for teams and thanks to recover it can even check multiple of these during a battle. colbur allows for jelli to cripple bisharp and krookodile (both of which are rly annoying for the core above to deal with) as well as mega shark. The ghost typing combined with water absorb makes it the best spin blocker in the tier rn bc the most common spinner, tentacruel, can't annoy it with scald and doesn't (usually) carry toxic either. starmie w/ tbolt is annoying albeit not too common, whereas the recent usage rise of mega toise does hurt jelli a bit (they should always carry dark pulse).

as for nidoqueen i got a little more creative: instead of using a lo set or the bulky physdef variant, i experimented with a specially defensive spread that also carries poison jab and eq to better deal with calm mind users, more specifically clefable and raikou. woulda loved to pair this thing with wish support but i couldn't make room for it on the team without altering the playstyle. had some atk investment to have a good shot at the 2hko on standard clef and the ohko on raikou after rocks iirc, with enough speed for modest prima and the rest in spdef (careful nature & sheer force bc its still needed for pjab). did work out p well even though it was more specifically designed to fit the needs of the team i used. kinda reminded me of spdef lix with a better mu vs clef and worse mu vs raikou. tbh since t-spikes are very much match-up dependent and relatively easy to absorb with all the amoonguss, tentacruel, gengar and other nidos around rn, i would consider cutting it for ice coverage to better deal with amoong and glisc. they're still rly good when they do work but i often found myself wishing i had additional coverage, in either fire or ice, instead.

so yeah that's all for now; love jelli and nido is really cool too bc its actually more versatile than you might think being customizable to fit the needs of your team rather nicely from my experience. cheers!
 
I agree with pretty much everything that was outlined in the posts above,

one point I would like to add though, is nidos ability to pressure common hazard removers especially when you are running fthrower. Pairing nido and jellicent makes for a great core on hazard stacking teams that not only gets up hazards, but is decently pressuring the tiers hazard removers. Basically the perfect setup for a dark spam core, as nido+ jelli are also pretty decent at taking on the fighting types/priority that usually bother these builds. As Lord Esche mentioned keys pairs nicely with queen+jelli and completes the hazard core. I´ve initially been using tspikes queen, but swapped for Fthrower later as it didnt perform as well as I wanted it to. The only "problem" I encountered while using jellicent, was that it tends to struggle a bit with taking on certain threats when using colbur berry, so Lefties is definitely an option if you manage to fit a solid koff absorber.

I encourage everyone to try out jellicent, it really has been performing a lot better than I expected it to.

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Flamethrower
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power

Jellicent (M) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Recover

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
Careful Nature
- Magnet Rise
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Play Rough

Sharpedo @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Protect
- Psychic Fangs

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Fire Blast

Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
 
Another eventful week comes to a close, and the winner with an all-time highscore is pokeisfun!

Shuckle has seen use by Amane Misa, who has not been impressed by its performance. Its general passiveness, reliance on Mental Herb as well as the fact that it commonly gets flinched by moves such as Iron Head to stop it from contributing to the battle have not helped its cause. There really isn't much to say, as Shuckle is rather straight-forward, and this straight-forwardness has been exploitable.

Meanwhile, Jellicent has been pretty unanimously loved by participants. Its ability to stallbreak while checking a number of offensive threats has helped it, and its ability to cripple its usual answers with Will-O-Wisp and access to Hex have allowed it to perform well. Lord Esche reports that the recent rise of Mega Blastoise has hurt it a little, as that is a Rapid Spinner it struggles taking on. Amane Misa and Miven^ also report that it has great synergy with the final Pokemon of the week, as its ability to block Rapid Spin reliably is invaluable on hazard stack teams.

And with that, we're at the final Pokemon of the week, Toxic Spikes Nidoqueen. Every single participant who has reported their progress has used it. Lord Esche has reported Nidoqueen to be very customizable, and provided some interesting sets. Its ability to check a multitude of threats due to stellar coverage as well as defensive utility due to its typing have really allowed it to shine. Miven^ brings up a great point in the fact that Nidoqueen pressures common hazard removal due to its overwhelming offensive power. Amane Misa reports the ever so common Knock Off being a problem as well as the lack of recovery being a bit disappointing, but nevertheless reports success. However, while Nidoqueen itself is customizable and great, pokeisfun brings up a great point: Nidoqueen faces competition as a Toxic Spikes user, and if it runs dual hazards, it often only has the chance to set up a single one. This hazard will, in most cases, be Stealth Rock. The fact that Poison-types are often the counterplay to Toxic Spikes, rather than Rapid Spin or Defog, also hurt defensive Nidoqueen's ability to keep up Toxic Spikes. As such, pokeisfun recommends dual hazard Nidoqueen to be relegated to defensive teams mostly, as it enjoys the support. Meanwhile, he finds offensive Toxic Spikes Nidoqueen often outclassed by Tentacruel due to Tentacruel's higher longevity as well as its ability to Rapid Spin, which is desirable on a team with Toxic Spikes.

Now that week 10 is wrapped up, here is week 11's selection:

Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
filler EVs
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
-

Persian-Alola @ filler item
Ability: Fur Coat
filler EVs
filler Nature
-
-
-
-

Mienshao @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-
-
-
-


This week, the selection includes Flyinium Z Talonflame, Alolan Persian and Choice Band Mienshao. Talonflame's ability allows it to get priority on its z-move if it is at full health. That said, its amazing Speed tier means it doesn't have to worry about many Pokemon outspeeding it, Mega Aerodactyl being the primary problem. Alolan Persian is an odd Pokemon in the fact that it has a great Speed tier but lacks much of an offensive presence. Foul Play remedies that a bit, and the combination of Fur Coat + Parting Shot allow it to take on a surprising number of physical attackers and pivot around. Z-Parting Shot can heal up an ally while Switcheroo sets with a Choice Scarf or a Choice Band can cripple its switch-ins. The last Pokemon of the bunch is Choice Band Mienshao, which is an incredibly strong wallbreaker. With some minor chip damage, it can 2HKO all but the sturdiest of resists. U-turn is a nifty tool, as it allows Mienshao to deal a good amount of chip damage to its normal answers and gains momentum.

As always, sign up with a fresh RW alt, and post your results, as well as your own thoughts on the Pokemon in question. You are free to edit your signup post if your post count is a concern. The deadline is Friday, April 28th, at 11:59 pm GMT+2. My co-host eht or I will check everyone's ladder scores then and decide the winner. Good luck everyone!
 
Last edited:
rw11 roseguardin

talon

am gonna post early so i don't look like a schmuck like the last two times i signed up

Team:
Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
- Roost

Blastoise @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Torrent
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 216 HP / 40 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- Rapid Spin

Scizor @ Lum Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower

Nidoqueen (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam

Latias (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Healing Wish

Rotom-Mow @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunderbolt


Replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-565285156: misplayed early on and lost Blastoise meaning that the rocks of doom stayed up but talonflame managed to pull out the win. rotom has been a very nice teammate who helps scare out bulky waters and lures out gliscor to kill it with hp ice. debating on replacing queen with a gliscor of my own to lure out more waters and act as another check to maero


Final thoughts: I couldn't ladder too extensively this week, but from what I have seen Talonflame can be an effective late-game sweeper, but it needs a fuckload of support. My team was designed to wear down bulky waters and Mega Aerodactyl, the two biggest fuck yous to Talon. It needs a lot of hazard support and without boosts its not too powerful (in the other replay I had, rotom needed to stay in with HP Ice to get raikou down to a KO with flare blitz. That said, Talonflame is a real threat when it's in because Flying is a ridiculously good offensive type and its great speed means even after Gale Wings is gone it threatens a lot of the unboosted meta.
 
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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
jumpy dumpy (Mienshao) @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- High Jump Kick
- Poison Jab

This is more or less the only set we can run this week. You might be able to fit a different move for Poison Jab or even Knock Off, but overall any changes to this set are minor.


I am using Choice Band Mienshao on a Volt-Turn team this week. Overall I find Choice Band Mienshao to be a very niche Pokemon that contributes almost no defensive utility in exchange for a very shaky, but also extreme, power level because:
  • Mienshao's defenses and typing means its almost always OHKOd by offensive Pokemon
  • Mienshao cannot use its only high powered moved if the opponent has a Ghost type - a very real possibility
  • Mienshao's speed tier (base 105) is insufficient because it limits the opportunities Mienshao has to spam HJK
The biggest problem Mienshao has overall is that it simply lacks opportunities to use HJK for the three reasons I mentioned above.

Firstly, you rarely get a chance to switch in to anything reliably - you're doing even worse than Terrakion in this regard because while you have fewer weaknesses, you also have fewer resistances and more importantly very poor defenses. This problem is significant because Mienshao is not primarily a sweeper, like most Terrakion sets are, which require only one chance to set up, but rather it operates as a wall breaker. If a wall breaker to be effective, it will usually needs multiple opportunities to come in and fire off attacks early in the game.

Not only does Mienshao have trouble coming in, when it does it has to predict if the opponent has a Ghost type, or very bulky resist (defensive Gliscor and Slowbro come to mind). Again, this problem is linked to its role as a wall breaker - it should be able to spam strong moves but unfortunately it has no "spammable" move. Spammable moves should have no immunities, high power, and high accuracy. HJK only fulfills 2 criteria at most and even has massive recoil if the opponent has a Ghost type.

While most wall breakers have either high speed or high bulk, Mienshao relies on only moderately high speed and is thus unable to stay in on Pokemon it desperately wants to -Mega Aero, Keldeo, Cobalion, Mega Absol, Infernape and Terrakion all come to mind. That is not to say Mienshao is slow, but it because it lacks bulk it is for the most part unable to chew a hit from these Pokemon and retaliate - it just drops or is forced out. Only Leftovers Raikou fails to OHKO, and that is not surprising considering Raikou relies on Calm Mind to sweep with.

There is essentially one reason to use Mienshao - power. Mienshao can OHKO essentially every offensive Pokemon that does not resist HJK so if it gets an opportunity to come in after Ghosts are gone - they are after all vulnerable to Pursuit - it is very likely Mienshao can get a KO. Even some resists are OHKOd with one or two SR switch ins by HJK. More importantly there are only a limited number of walls that can switch into Mienshao and only Gliscor can come in on all four moves.

All of this leads me to conclude Mienshao has a niche, but a very small one, because it is unreliable and offers little other than power.


jumpy dumpy (Mienshao) @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- High Jump Kick
- Poison Jab

woofy woof (Raikou) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]

chuggy buggy (Scizor) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Pursuit
- Superpower

pinky dinky (Slowbro) @ Waterium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Psyshock

mighty bitey (Krookodile) @ Black Glasses
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Earthquake

dance 'n prance (Tsareena) @ Leftovers
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin
- Synthesis
- Trop Kick


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-565231805
Mienshao demonstrates extreme power by killing a relatively healthy Heracross - note that this was made possible in large part from their lack of Ghost type and good number of Pokemon slower than Mienshao. Also Slowbro was pretty clearly the star of the show

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-565538995
Even with a Ghost type eliminated from what I would call fortunate Pursuit guess work, Mienshao's low speed means it cannot launch off an attack and is quickly OHKOd by a faster Starmie

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-565541091
Another fortunate match up for Mienshao as my opponent has no Ghosts, but Mienshao is still limited to one KO as it cannot out speed several threats and is quickly KOd on bad, if probably still "correct", prediction

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-565564561
No Ghost or Ground types means my Volt-Turn team should do well, and it does, but not in any significant part from Mienshao, instead Raikou demonstrates what it means to have an extra 10 points in base speed and does damage based on that, while Slowbro does the majority of the defensive work. Also the victory came mainly because Magneton was trapped eary on and that led to too much pressure from Scizor.
 

Hayburner

WHAT A POGGER CURRY!
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
*insert montage of me being lucked every game here*

Well barely laddered because of luck but ill post what I've noticed in my few games

Mienshao: Honestly was pretty bad whenever I used it. Barely gets any chances to come in, High jump kick is a garbage move, and plenty of mons can easily tank one and force it out. The only mon it can really force out with no threat is bisharp.

Talonflame: Ive been using talonflame for a while and its a super good mon. Its speed tier is amazing, can easily beat many top threats bar mega aero, and can dismantle weakened teams. It isn't exactly hard to find set up opportunities either. Ill post the team I made quickly that can really help support either tflame or terrakion clean up
Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Roost

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Pulse
- Rapid Spin
- Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere

Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
- Soft-Boiled

Terrakion @ Salac Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

Latias @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psyshock
- Draco Meteor
- Roost

Worked well but didn't test it extensively. and yea fuck laddering
 

Amane Misa

Bring Them Home Now!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Not going to make a fancy presentation like always, I hope I will be forgiven ^^'.

:
Choice Band Mienshao is a great wallbreaker. Its power is ridiculous. However, as pokeisfun said, its speed tier limits its wallbreaking opportunities and its below average bulk doesn't help it either. I can honestly see it working only on the low ladder... while it hits like a truck and most teams don't have a reliable switch-in to it, higher ladder players can play around it and take its bulk into their advantage. Not only that, if there's a ghost type on the opponent's team, Mienshao has difficulties spamming its main move, High Jump Kick. It highly appreciates Pursuit and VoltTurn support, keep this in mind while thinking of partners.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-565368759 - low ladder action

Mienshao @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab


:
This thing is bad Unfortunately I haven't had much success with this thing. It can work on offensive teams as a Darkinium-Z user with Parting Shot, allowing itself to heal one teammate of your choice and gain momentum over-all but yeah, other than that, it's pretty passive and is worn down pretty quickly. If you have this Pokémon on your team, I highly suggest you replacing it with something else lol. If you insist on using the cat, pair it up with a wallbreaker like Nidoking.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-567321029
Persian-Alola @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Parting Shot
- Foul Play
- Toxic
- Taunt


:
Out of the three, this has given me the highest satisfaction. Instead of going with the mainstream offensive Flyinium Z set, I decided using an old classic from ORAS, the bulky Talonflame. It does a good job at stallbreaking, countering Clefable, Scizor, Bisharp and Cobalion and is a pretty interesting Pokémon over all. It is a very annoying Pokémon for balance/stall to face against as Talonflame has a great matchup versus them. Good partners are grass types, hazard removers and rock resists.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-566427931
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-566429720
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-567314769
Talonflame
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 212 Def / 48 Spe
Impish Nature
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Roost

OR

Talonflame
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 212 SpD / 48 Spe
Careful Nature
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Roost
 
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esche

Frust kommt auf, denn der Bus kommt nicht
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
soo about talonflame


i feel that, despite the 'hype' it's been getting, talon is in a rather weird spot in this meta. aerodactyl usage is incredibly high and raikou continues to be a very relevant threat but on paper there is not much else that stops the +2 boosted bird with powerful priority flying moves such as skystrike coming off an already respectable 120 bp brave bird - at least on offensive and bulky offensive builds. however, the greatest obstacle for talonflame to overcome (next to aero ofc) are the new limitations of its ability. in practice i found talonflame to simply not be able to act as what it was intended to do so well in the past - sweep. most of the times talonflame would be able to nab a kill on the mon in front of it but afterwards face a faster threat (aero most of the time but also scarfers like hydreigon, keldeo & krook) that it were not be able to deal with and therefore either being forced out or simply revenge-killed. don't get me wrong talon has nice offensive presence & forces the opp to play conservatively as soon as it comes in safely but i'm not sold on whether it's worth it considering the amount of support talon requires/appreciates:

1) reliable hazard control (100% needed)
2) multiple ways of dealing with (even better: luring) aerodactyl
3) ways of creating favorable setup opportunities for talon

concerning partners: i think i also brought this up in a past week when tornadus was the subject of research because it faces somewhat of a similar problem: double powder amoong, scarf krook (chip w/ pursuit or surprise it w/ edge) and pyhsdef invested empoleon, with enough bulk to take edge+eq, can make nice lures for aero (actually utilized all of those in the team i posted that week).

the provided set with bb and flare blitz works bc it somewhat makes up for the gale wings nerf with higher investment in speed. the issue i had with it is that the timing for the use of your z-move has to be planned exceptionally well and the recoil damage from the two attacking moves only complicate this matter. let's face it: if your opponent does not want you to set up and maintain gale wings priority for the next mon that comes out then you simply won't be able to achieve that without burning your z-move (bc the opp will just keep attacking with the mon that's out, preventing talon to be at full hp). in addition to that sand from hippo and other forms of passive damage make talons task all the more difficult. ideally this set get's an sd on a predicted switch, not loosing hp in the process, takes the supposed check down with a +2 supersonic skystrike (e.g. aero dies after rocks which is kinda cool), and afterwards is still able to threaten the next incoming mon with priority brave bird.

// here's sth i came up with outside of this weeks recommended set:

Talonflame
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Swords Dance
- Roost

this set is what you could call a compromise between the z-move dual stab variant and the bulky sd set from oras. it aims to maintain the merit of gale wings by choosing acrobatics>bb and forgoes flare blitz completely in favor of utility in wow which is supposed to grant it more and safer setup opportunities. 168spe with jolly is enough for raikou (you still want to be able to outspeed this and be able to pick it off at least), starmie & m-absol whereas 88hp actually avoid the 2hko by +2 moonblast from clef which could come in handy in a 1v1 situation (this is also applicable to the provided set in the op ofc).

interesting to see the bulky stallbreaker set being brought up, especially without gale wings at all. loosing priority on roost seems like a really big deal for this set already, but i guess it worked out somehow? idk i haven't tested this yet but not even being able to at least pick off weakened threats with this seems weird and i can't say i like how little investment in speed this has, not even being able to taunt+wow krook & coba for example... sorry for getting off track n_n

// other than that there's not much else too say about talon i think. maybe i keep comparing talon too much with its former glory though i do still like how it can operate - with the right support and slightly reduced expectations.
 
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Another week is up, and the winner is pokeisfun! Congratulations!

This week, our focus was on Choice Band Mienshao, Supersonic Skystrike Talonflame and Alolan Persian. Let's start with Talonflame, since most people here have used it. Talonflame necessitates good hazard removal and a way of safely bringing it in, as Stealth Rock heavily neuter it and its bulk is mediocre. However, SkywardSword596 and Hayburner report that Talonflame is indeed threatening when it does get an opportunity, and its speed tier allows it to be functional even after losing its Gale Wings priority. Losing Gale Wings priority is incredibly common, though, especially as there are ways of chipping at Talonflame passively in forms such as Hippowdon's Sand. Lord Esche notes that the omnipresence of Mega Aerodactyl is indeed troublesome and recommends being conscious of it in teambuilding, whether it be by incorporating multiple answers or finding a good way to lure it in and remove it. While not part of research this week, Lord Esche and Amane Misa also offer alternative sets, where the former provides an offensive variant while the latter swears on its old Stallbreaker sets.

Choice Band Mienshao also saw quite some use this week. Be it pokeisfun, Hayburner or Amane Misa, all of them reported that Mienshao's speed is hindering it. It lacks the defensive utility to find many opportunities to come in on its own, and despite its ridiculous power, it is rarely able to put in work as it lacks the opportunities to do so. VoltTurn support is recommended and so is Pursuit, as ghosts can otherwise scare it from clicking High Jump Kick. Despite this, few Pokemon can reliable switch into Choice Band Mienshao, with Gliscor being at the forefront, so it does boast a small niche. Its High Risk often yields middling rewards, causing it to be unreliable.

Alolan Persian has only seen use from Amane Misa, and they have not reported success with it. They have used the Z-Parting Shot set to heal up one of Persian's teammates but found its passiveness rather unbearable. I am a little sad no one took up Alolan Persian and used the Choice Scarf variant, as it can deal with threats such as Mega Aerodactyl and cripple switch-ins via Switcheroo, allowing it to put in at least some work by itself while mainly seeing use as a pivot.

With week 11 done and over with, here is week 12's selection:

Honchkrow @ filler item
Ability: Moxie
filler EVs
filler nature
-
-
-
-

Azelf @ filler item
Ability: Levitate
filler EVs
filler nature
- Nasty Plot
-
-
-

Empoleon @ filler item
Ability: Torrent
252 SpA / filler
filler nature
-
-
-
-


This time around, we're taking a look at some rather peculiar offensive Pokemon. There has been some discussion on Honchkrow in the viability rankings recently, but it went nowhere. Nevertheless, after talking with Hogg, we agreed there may be potential to Honchkrow so we want to see what you can come up with. Z-Mirror Move, Z-Snatch, or a conventional LO set, you have no limits here. Other than Honchkrow, we want some research done on Nasty Plot Azelf. Despite its biggest competitor in Alakazam being gone, Nasty Plot sets seem to be rarely seen and Azelf is mainly used as a suicide lead for Hyper Offense. However, defensively, there aren't many answers to Nasty Plot Azelf, and either outspeeding it to revenge kill or trapping it with Pursuit seem to be its common answers. Last but not least, Empoleon has often seen use in SM UU in a specially defensive variant to answer Primarina better. However, this does not mean offensive Empoleon has no merit. Its movepool is not the greatest but it has all the tools it needs to be a threat, and its typing allows it to potentially make some smart use of berries as well. Keldeo, Primarina and even Mega Blastoise offer some heavy competition as a specially offensive Water-type, but there may be some merit to running Empoleon, and we want you to find this out.

As always, sign up with a fresh RW alt, and post your results, as well as your own thoughts on the Pokemon in question. You are free to edit your signup post if your post count is a concern. The deadline is Friday, May 5th, at 11:59 pm GMT+2. My co-host eht or I will check everyone's ladder scores then and decide the winner. Good luck everyone!
 
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