Retesting the Suspects

While metagame changes may have led to renewed feasibility of select BL pokemon, I feel there are OU pokemon less potent in UU than most if not all of the 11 current BLs. The 4 OUs that come to mind being,

Electivire
Dusknoir
MamoswineIn UU, he may be an offensive powerhouse or a plodding weakness laden mess that cannot switch in and has trouble nabbing KOs. I'm least sure about Mamoswine's fair placement in UU.
Tentacruel-I feel he would likely earn a desirable support niche in UU, but Toxic Spike's viability in the current metagame seems very questionable to me and his actual options seem limited.

I really cannot see these pokemon as unfit for UU without testing showing otherwise. I'm confident even the safe BLs to test such as Crobat would be far more impactful in UU than these OUs (at least Tentacruel/Dusknoir).

I know they earned their placements due to usage, but it seems silly that Raikou is up for reconsideration in UU but Dusknoir is not. Who even uses Dusknoir in OU?
 

shrang

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I know they earned their placements due to usage, but it seems silly that Raikou is up for reconsideration in UU but Dusknoir is not. Who even uses Dusknoir in OU?
Obviously, more people than Raikou. OUs are not to be tested in UU because frankly, they're OU. They've been used enough and therefore don't belong in UU. People need to stop confusing OU and BL, because they're two different things. BL is a ban-list, OU is a tier. If we went on skill and Pokemon ability alone, yes we would see Electivire and Dusknoir in UU, but "certain people" think they're good and continue using them, enough so they are OU.
 
Obviously, more people than Raikou. OUs are not to be tested in UU because frankly, they're OU. They've been used enough and therefore don't belong in UU. People need to stop confusing OU and BL, because they're two different things. BL is a ban-list, OU is a tier. If we went on skill and Pokemon ability alone, yes we would see Electivire and Dusknoir in UU, but "certain people" think they're good and continue using them, enough so they are OU.
Perhaps this is an unattractive and unfeasible idea, but perhaps OUs placements should only be determined by usage beyond a certain point in the ladder. I have never played on Shoddy, but I have been made aware of the presence of wholly non competitive teams on the OU ladder (not gimmick teams utilising UUs, Trick Room, etc. but 6 random OUs with minimal synergy and using pokemon like Electivire who have otherwise been dismissed).

I would assume that Electivire and Dusknoir would not be OU if low ladder usage was left unaccounted for.
 
While metagame changes may have led to renewed feasibility of select BL pokemon, I feel there are OU pokemon less potent in UU than most if not all of the 11 current BLs. The 4 OUs that come to mind being,

Electivire
Dusknoir
MamoswineIn UU, he may be an offensive powerhouse or a plodding weakness laden mess that cannot switch in and has trouble nabbing KOs. I'm least sure about Mamoswine's fair placement in UU.
Tentacruel-I feel he would likely earn a desirable support niche in UU, but Toxic Spike's viability in the current metagame seems very questionable to me and his actual options seem limited.

I really cannot see these pokemon as unfit for UU without testing showing otherwise. I'm confident even the safe BLs to test such as Crobat would be far more impactful in UU than these OUs (at least Tentacruel/Dusknoir).

I know they earned their placements due to usage, but it seems silly that Raikou is up for reconsideration in UU but Dusknoir is not. Who even uses Dusknoir in OU?
Although I like this idea it cant be done if they are being used enough in OU thats where they belong no matter what. No Matter who is using them or why, if we start letting OU poke into UU where does it stop lol, Roserade to me is viable in UU and OU not overpowered in any sense for the UU meta but as long as it gets usage ill have to live without (love roserade). Even though those poke can fit into the UU meta they dont belong unless they're useage in OU drops.

On another note I would like a retest of Porgon-Z and Crobat but it is what it is.
 
Maybe someone can clarify this for me, because this whole issue seems really simple.

If you can prove that the metagame has significantly changed for a currently BL Pokemon since the departure of the said suspect to BL, retesting could be possible. In order to at all even think of the constructiveness or even "morality" of re-voting on a past suspect, it is first needed to prove that their vote did not mean crap because of the metagame shifts that have happened since then. Otherwise, it really is deconstructive. We would be re-voting on a very dead topic resolved quite a while ago. I don't know exactly what would happen to warrent a "vote" on whether UU has shifted enough for ___ suspect. A UU Council akin to the Salamence council could possibly work well, and I know it was discussed on #stark a couple days ago. Maybe posts could be used discussing how a suspect re-test would be conducted before we jump to discussing potential BL drops.

And it's
not happening
anyways so don't get too excited.
 

FlareBlitz

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Green00, there was an initiative in Policy Review which discussed the idea of weighting usage by CRE. I don't think it went anywhere, but yeah, by that measure Dusknoir and Electivire would probably be UU. If you're interested in that whole thing I'd recommend contacting a mod or looking through the forum for the thread.
 

breh

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While metagame changes may have led to renewed feasibility of select BL pokemon, I feel there are OU pokemon less potent in UU than most if not all of the 11 current BLs. The 4 OUs that come to mind being,

Electivire: Is actually really viable in the current metagame; nothing other than Dugtrio really counters it... Lots of stuff is KOed by Thunderpunch/Ice Punch/EQ/Low Kick
Dusknoir: Another spinblocker... this practically makes spikes and SR permanent as UU spinners really can't do anything to it (Donphan usage will go down so much that it will be NU xD)
Mamoswine: I dunno about this one; doesn't seem terrible and a high power ice shard is always good but quake-edge and great 80 base speed make me say no...
Tentacruel: May not actually be that broken really; may merit testing...
Oh and no P-Z retest please... I hate the damn thing; it hits for so much damage
 
can anyone please expound upon how this metagame is any more or less stale than others? I've only been UU battling since, er, early April, but going through the usage statistic threads(January-March, and June) Venusaur has been above 20% usage, and up to about the 15-18th most used pokes, they are at 10-20%.
Milotic, Mismagius, Registeel, Arcanine have all had 13%+ usage, Uxie has 12%+, Hitmontop/Spiritomb 10%+. the only difference I see is there's not many people claiming suspects as there had been in previous metagame megathreads.

I didn't really want to look at the rest of the threads, but I really don't see a whole lot of difference, aside from the top five most used 'mons being found on more teams than normal.
 

SJCrew

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Steelix still 2HKOes you, while you fail to 2HKO it
+1 HP Water is an easy 2HKO.

Pray to God nobody's running HP Ice.

And Venusaur will end up putting you to sleep.
KOed by +1 Extrasensory, Sleep Powder has Shoddy accuracy, and putting something to sleep is not countering it or killing it. If I have a cleric in the wings, you've effectively accomplished nothing.

We can go on and on, but it's hard enough to come up with a list of consistent and reliable checks to Raikou because something as small as your opponent's HP of choice (which takes less than a minute to change in teambuilder) could dismantle everything you sought to achieve. It's always a toss-up as to whether or not you're going to get your team swept unless you run full-on stall, run Registeel/Chansey at all times, or give everything on your team priority (which is still easily circumvented by Conservative Booster). It was very bad for the metagame, and I think we made the right decision in banning it.

What do you mean by "didn't drop overnight"? If you mean that you went to bed one day when they were OU and when you woke up the other they were UU, then they certainly dropped overnight. If you mean that they were gradually losing use in OU and were going to drop to UU sooner or later (e.g. Heracross) then any potential BL Pokemon that drops down will have to be retested first, which would mean it didn't drop down overnight either.

You claim that nothing short of a new game is going to produce a radical enough change for Raikou to be considered UU, yet one post ago you also claimed that if Blissey and Snorlax dropped down Raikou would be "fair game" (i.e. be considered UU). Is that not contradictory?
This is really getting stupid. I meant that all the OUs that dropped came down gradually, and that kind of change took an extremely long time to develop. We only make tiering changes every four months, and out of those four months, we'll probably get one or no OU dropouts on average. In order for Raikou to even be considered for UU, we'll need a lot more than one or two new counters, and all of them have to be firmly established in the UU metagame (not on-the-fence/entirely obvious BL candidates that'll surely be banned a month later like your examples).

My point is these things take time, and there's no guarantee ANYTHING that drops down will affect the suspects we've banned, and the chance of even one Pokemon affecting a Suspect's tiering position in the slightest is unfeasible enough as is.

What the lot of you are asking for is a rash decision to suddenly test BL Pokemon on the basis of metagame changes that didn't happen or aren't significant enough to even consider them coming back. Plus, there is no need for them to come back, since them metagame is balanced without them (...which is exactly why they were banned in the first place).

Don't you see this is a complete mistake and we wouldn't gain anything from retesting the suspects? The metagame is already balanced and it only became so because we banned those Pokemon. What more do you want?

But there are 11 BL Pokemon, some of which were banned long, long ago. If the metagame has changed since their banning, why shouldn't they deserve a retest? Kalec put it well. The only reason anyone has suggested a retest is because there is the very real possibility that some of the BL pokemon would not be BL nowadays because of metagame changes.
No - the question is, why should they be retested? If you're demanding something this controversial, you're going to need a damn good reason for it. What Pokemon are now suddenly countered by the few OU dropouts we've had since then and can justifiably be considered balanced as a result?

Looking at the entire list of 11 BLs, 10 of them are going to dump on the metagame the same way they did last time because the changes that have occurred since then have had no effect on UU's ability to deal with them. If you disagree and can make a case for any of them, please do so.
 
Perspective, people - taking a couple of weeks to test a Suspect isn't damaging to the metagame. Absolutely no harm is done if we test it then decide to ban it again. And we're not going to get a new UU metagame for well over a year at least, so it's not like we're running out of time to spend with this precious, precious stale metagame.

(Note that I said a couple of weeks - there's really no need to take a full month unless we really want to. I can't imagine us needing more than two weeks for this.)

There were a lot of people complaining when Froslass and Raikou were last dropped into UU, and guess what? They were voted UU, and then voted UU again, until finally being banned after three testing periods. Perhaps we just need to be a little open-minded and be willing to give somet hings a chance?
 

franky

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it is damaging the metagame if this were to be implemented on the current ladder. it is damaging a metagame which was initially supposed to reach a healthy metagame. (our current one is supposedly a healthy one) by re-adding suspects, we are for sure potentially damaging it. i think the only plausible way we can do this without "hurting" the current metagame that many people worked so hard to create is if we add a "uu suspect" ladder. unfortunately, i don't think its possible with gen 5 creeping up and i don't think its even possible to even have it up anyways.

also there is obviously harm done to players who want the current metagame (a healthy one). if we add suspects down who are already deemed bl, it is obviously harmful and can actually ward off many players after working x amount of months to achieve a healthy metagame. again, a uu suspect ladder is the only plausible way i see this working. regardless, jabba said this isn't happening though.
 
There is enough of a change in the metagame now that Crobat can sit comfortably in the UU tier (and maybe MAYBE Abomasnow), and there's been a good amount of evidence in favor of it to be retested, but this conservative approach isn't helping. If UU is supposed to stay the same and not undergo any changes, why did we drop all the BL's and NFE's in the first place?

A changing metagame does not necessarily equal to an unbalanced one.
 

Eo Ut Mortus

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edit: probably did, FlareBlitz.

Pray to God nobody's running HP Ice.
Raikou can only have one Hidden Power, which was already specified.

KOed by +1 Extrasensory, Sleep Powder has Shoddy accuracy, and putting something to sleep is not countering it or killing it. If I have a cleric in the wings, you've effectively accomplished nothing.
Run a damage calc, it's not. (252 HP/252 SDef Calm/Sassy, which is the standard)

We can go on and on, but it's hard enough to come up with a list of consistent and reliable checks to Raikou because something as small as your opponent's HP of choice (which takes less than a minute to change in teambuilder) could dismantle everything you sought to achieve.
I just gave you some checks who check Raikou regardless of Hidden Power; I haven't even mentioned any Hidden Power reliant checks outside of Torterra and Rhyperior.

It's always a toss-up as to whether or not you're going to get your team swept unless you run full-on stall, run Registeel/Chansey at all times, or give everything on your team priority (which is still easily circumvented by Conservative Booster). It was very bad for the metagame, and I think we made the right decision in banning it.
Again, there are Pokemon outside of Registeel/Chansey who check Raikou sufficiently.

I'm not going to derail this thread further. You're ignoring most of my points as far as I can tell, anyway. The point was that banning Raikou/Froslass was not as obvious as a decision as you made it out to be, and that arguing that your opposition's arguments are nonsense without reasoning of any sort is an insult to the voters and the process.
 

shrang

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it is damaging the metagame if this were to be implemented on the current ladder. it is damaging a metagame which was initially supposed to reach a healthy metagame. (our current one is supposedly a healthy one) by re-adding suspects, we are for sure potentially damaging it. i think the only plausible way we can do this without "hurting" the current metagame that many people worked so hard to create is if we add a "uu suspect" ladder. unfortunately, i don't think its possible with gen 5 creeping up and i don't think its even possible to even have it up anyways.

also there is obviously harm done to players who want the current metagame (a healthy one). if we add suspects down who are already deemed bl, it is obviously harmful and can actually ward off many players after working x amount of months to achieve a healthy metagame. again, a uu suspect ladder is the only plausible way i see this working. regardless, jabba said this isn't happening though.
If it is clearly damaging, we can always just quick-boot the thing. If it falls down, gets banned again, we get back to our fun healthy metagame, and nothing would have changed, except 4 weeks of unhappy UU players, I guess.
 

FlareBlitz

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Eo, Steelix is easily 2hko'd by +1 HP Water, regardless of spread.

Max/Max Sassy Steelix taking a +1 ShucaKou HP Water: 55.9% - 66.1%

Not sure what's wrong on your end. Did you forget to account for Calm Mind?

Oh, for posterity, here's +1 LO boosted HP Water against 252/0 Relaxed/Impish Steelix: 109% - 128.8%

Also, specially defensive Venusaur with Earthquake only beats LO Kou if a) sleep powder hits and b) raikou stays asleep for longer than 1 turn. Put together this has around a 55% chance of happening, which is about as reliable as relying on a speed tie.

(I'm sorry that this is a further derailment of the thread, but I just wanted to qualify those points)

Also, to everyone saying "we have a balanced metagame let's not fuck it up", please recall that all we're doing is advocating a test. If it turns out that over the two week or whatever testing period that honchkrow/crobat/whatever is broken all we need to do is keep them in BL. And if it turns out that they're not, they could be great ways of keeping Milo and Venu, who some people believe deserve the boot, in check.
 

SJCrew

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@ Eo: I'm ignoring all of the parts of your post that make this discussion personal because I'm trying to get back to the original topic. I want to talk about how this relates to the suspects and why they need to be tested, which is what Banedon and I have been almost exclusively discussing so far.

Retesting the BLs would be a massive waste of time and a headache for everyone who worked hard to get rid of them. A lot of us are enjoying the increased viability of Pokemon and strategies in the current metagame and would rather keep it that way. A UU Suspect ladder would be ideal, but it's simply not going to happen and neither will the retesting. I just wanted to make it clear for those that still support this motion that there's absolutely no reason for us to go through with this and we wouldn't accomplish anything if we did.
 

shrang

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Retesting the BLs would be a massive waste of time and a headache for everyone who worked hard to get rid of them. A lot of us are enjoying the increased viability of Pokemon and strategies in the current metagame and would rather keep it that way. A UU Suspect ladder would be ideal, but it's simply not going to happen and neither will the retesting. I just wanted to make it clear for those that still support this motion that there's absolutely no reason for us to go through with this and we wouldn't accomplish anything if we did.
You don't know this for sure. While it is highly likely that if you pop Raikou back into the metagame it won't end up with a good outcome, there are some Suspects that could possibly fit now (like Crobat) and not before due to the metagame shifts that OUs have dropped down to create (Rhyperior, Donphan, rise in Aggron, etc).

About the bolded part, where is your evidence?? There could potentially be plenty of good that can brought to the metagame if testing is successful. Like LR mentioned, testing Crobat might not only bring another dimension to the metagame, but keep stuff like Venusaur, and in turn, Milotic in check. We could potentially bring Crobat back to keep 5-10 possible Suspects (Venusaur getting banned will likely result in a Milotic ban, which could result in a Moltres/Houndoom/Arcanine/Rhyperior ban, which could possibly result in a Leafeon ban and so on). If Crobat testing is successful, we could have spent 4 weeks in what could potentially be another 20 weeks of banning Suspects where we finally get to our desired metagame again.
 
Why can't we just hijack the OU suspect ladder? From what I understand, they are pretty much in the same spot as us in that it's balanced(hell, the next biggest thing--if anything-- to test is a clause, it's looking like, but that's for another thread). If they are not using the ladder, then why can't we?

Another thing, how can all of you people write off all of the suspects as "damaging" to the metagame when it hasn't been given a chance. If OU can drop down Deoxys-S to test, why can't we drop down Crobat? Because we sent it there? BL is the Ubers of UU, principle should be the same.
 

SJCrew

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You don't know this for sure. While it is highly likely that if you pop Raikou back into the metagame it won't end up with a good outcome, there are some Suspects that could possibly fit now (like Crobat) and not before due to the metagame shifts that OUs have dropped down to create (Rhyperior, Donphan, rise in Aggron, etc).

About the bolded part, where is your evidence?? There could potentially be plenty of good that can brought to the metagame if testing is successful. Like LR mentioned, testing Crobat might not only bring another dimension to the metagame, but keep stuff like Venusaur, and in turn, Milotic in check. We could potentially bring Crobat back to keep 5-10 possible Suspects (Venusaur getting banned will likely result in a Milotic ban, which could result in a Moltres/Houndoom/Arcanine/Rhyperior ban, which could possibly result in a Leafeon ban and so on). If Crobat testing is successful, we could have spent 4 weeks in what could potentially be another 20 weeks of banning Suspects where we finally get to our desired metagame again.
Q: How do you improve a balance?
A: You don't, just leave it alone.

The support for Venusaur's ban is pretty weak right now, so it doesn't look like that chain effect will be initiated any time soon. For as much of a whore Milotic is, the only thing that'll happen in the case of a Venusaur ban is that other Grass types will step up to take its place, like Meganium, who's almost identical statistically, and still has no problem countering Milotic. I could also see Vileplume stepping up to the plate and bringing Sunny Day teams out of hiding with it. I can safely say that Venusaur going BL won't trigger the apocalypse.

I've said countless times that I'm not against a Crobat test, but I still think it's highly unnecessary, since Venusaur has plenty of checks as is that still need to avoid Sleep Powder and it won't really correct any sort of glaring flaw in the metagame, if there ever were any. Even if there were some sort of huge flaw worth correcting, one Pokemon won't be enough to correct that balance, as it just shifts centralization onto that Pokemon rather than the problem in question.

About the "evidence"...well, you're the one trying to tell me that we should try to enhance something that's already stable. What do I have to prove to you?
 

FlareBlitz

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Q: How do you improve a balance?
A: You don't, just leave it alone.
To put it mildly, this argument is specious. To put it less mildly, it's fucking retarded.

Achieving perfect balance in any metagame is impossible. There will always be Pokemon who are just SLIGHTLY too difficult too handle, but not broken enough to outright qualify for suspect-hood. There are several Pokemon of this vein in the current metagame, the two most supported ones being Venusaur and Milotic, and I think we've all had enough trouble with those to say that, yeah, they're really good Pokemon who are almost-but-not-quite Suspect worthy.
Now imagine something like Crobat stepping into the fray. Crobat shuts down basically every Venusaur set ever while also giving Milotic some significant issues with a set of Taunt/Toxic/Roost/Brave Bird. This in turn decentralizes the metagame around those two and, depending on what other positive effects Crobat might have, possibly result in a more balanced metagame overall. Same argument applies to Honchkrow too. While I personally believe that Crobat is a broken fucker and that Honchkrow probably is too, we owe it to both the suspects to re-evaluate them given how drastically the metagame has changed since their ban (mayhap not so much in Krow's case but I already covered why it needs to be re-tested).

And ultimately, if it turns out that it's not the case, then hey, it's not like we lost anything except two-four weeks of testing time, which shouldn't be a big deal at all. It's not like this is OU where we have a huge order of operations list to finish, our time is mostly going to be used only for battling in this same exact metagame for the next half-year or so, given that our tier has finally gotten somewhat close to being balanced. I'm just not seeing much in the way of opportunity cost here with regards to testing, and quite a bit in the way of potential benefits.
 

SJCrew

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Achieving perfect balance in any metagame is impossible.
Yes, we all know that, and that's why nobody's talking about it. We're talking about UU being at the peak of its balance since the tier list overhaul, but upon handcrafting this new metagame after months of work, some people have decided they were bored and want to see if the Pokemon we just banned not too long ago are still broken. It makes no fucking sense.

UU, in the context of its former suspects is mostly the same. The few OU flunkees we've had over time don't carry enough clout to make all the Pokemon we've deemed broken a while back much different. Umbreon, Roserade, and Tentacruel went up, Donphan, Alakazam, and Rhyperior came down, maybe some other Pokemon I can't think of off the top, and 10 more suspects have been banned. Now think about it, do any of those Pokemon really have a huge effect on how the suspects functioned and what got them banned in the first place? Yanmega and Staraptor shit on every single one of those Pokemon and so do Gallade and Honchkrow. Looks like they're safe.

Now, let's suppose Rhyperior is a great check for Crobat, and so are these two other theoritical Pokemon that seem to be on every team. So now Crobat is only somewhat overpowered, just like Milotic and Venusaur, except maybe better because this one managed to hopskotch its way out of UU. Now tell me, why the hell do we want an even better Venusaur or Milotic? Should we add a third member to that dynamic duo and give all the UU players another reason to bitch or should we just leave it where it is and maintain the balance we already have?

This in turn decentralizes the metagame around those two and, depending on what other positive effects Crobat might have, possibly result in a more balanced metagame overall
Uh, nope, it's just going to push the centralization in Crobat's favor. Crobat won't make Venusaur or Milotic any worse at what they do, since Milotic is still going to cockblock sweepers and Venusaur is still going to put shit to sleep, survive for an incredibly long time, and deal immense amounts of damage. You're talking about adding another, completely independent threat to the list that can be used alongside two of our most prominent ones, and probably even makes them more of a bitch to beat. Needless to say, it's not in high demand.

PS: Crobat being retested could be bad for Toxicroak usage. Think about this!

(mayhap not so much in Krow's case but I already covered why it needs to be re-tested).
No, let's go over that again. Where are these Honchkrow counters that weren't here when it was banned? Keep in mind this guy was unanimously banned from UU last time, so there's going to have to be a shitload of them and a good argument behind it for retesting it to be anything other than a mistake.

I'm just not seeing much in the way of opportunity cost here with regards to testing, and quite a bit in the way of potential benefits.
There are no benefits to altering UU's current balance with a Pokemon we voted BL. Crobat isn't in any way going to improve the metagame, it's just going to make it different to some degree because we have more fire under our feets to counter another potent, all-purpose threat. UU is filled with those, why do we need another one?

Also, guess what? It's banned. You need better reasoning than pure, child-like intrigue to make a case for letting it back out of its cage. Pull out the big guns and talk about what sets it could be using and how we could beat it. This decision was supposed to be permanent and you guys seem to really be stuck on the idea that you're entitled to the right to have your curiosity piqued. Sorry to break it to you, but system doesn't owe you shit. You're already not convincing Jabba or Reach, who are really the only two people worth talking to about this, so you might as well go hard or go home.
 
You're theorymoning. There's no way we'll know that Crobat will be just another Venusaur or Milotic without actually testing it.

PS. Toxicroak shits over Crobat. It'll probably just start runnign SubPunch to fuck it. Crobat switches in on Sub = dead Crobat. U-turn doesn't even break the sub cause it's resisted x4. Crobat would make a horrible switch-in besides revenging or if you know Toxicroak's set.
 

shrang

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You need better reasoning than pure, child-like intrigue to make a case for letting it back out of its cage.
You're telling us we need better reasoning when you're just presenting statements like

There are no benefits to altering UU's current balance with a Pokemon we voted BL.
??

I'm going to ask one single question to this. How are there no benefits?? How do you know this?? If we add a Pokemon that isn't broken (Which comes from testing), what harm is there?? You need to stop stating "X" and "Y" and start answering "How".

Anyway:

Yes, we all know that, and that's why nobody's talking about it. We're talking about UU being at the peak of its balance since the tier list overhaul, but upon handcrafting this new metagame after months of work, some people have decided they were bored and want to see if the Pokemon we just banned not too long ago are still broken. It makes no fucking sense.
This means it can potentially be more balanced than it is now, and even if it isn't, we can always just ban it again and we'll just end up where we left off. There is no harm in doing this. It looks like we're not in a hurry to be testing anything else, therefore we're not all that fussed with wasting time, since we're technically "wasting time" by doing nothing at the moment anyway. Right now, UU has 50 Pokemon. If we allow Suspect X in and then subsequently ban it, we still have the same 50 Pokemon, and nothing would have changed apart from 2-4 weeks of testing.
 
You're theorymoning. There's no way we'll know that Crobat will be just another Venusaur or Milotic without actually testing it.
Quoted for truth.

SJCrew said:
What the lot of you are asking for is a rash decision to suddenly test BL Pokemon on the basis of metagame changes that didn't happen or aren't significant enough to even consider them coming back. Plus, there is no need for them to come back, since them metagame is balanced without them (...which is exactly why they were banned in the first place).
I think most people have made it sufficiently clear that only Pokemon which were banned during dramatically different metagames should be retested. I even said last post that I don't think Froslass and Raikou should be retested since the metagame hasn't changed that much. Eo said the same thing, even though he thinks Raikou and Froslass aren't BL.

But I dare you to write here in plain bold letters that the metagame hasn't changed much since Crobat was banned. Do it. If you don't do it, you have to admit that there is reasonable ground to retest Crobat.

SJCrew said:
No - the question is, why should they be retested? If you're demanding something this controversial, you're going to need a damn good reason for it. What Pokemon are now suddenly countered by the few OU dropouts we've had since then and can justifiably be considered balanced as a result?

Looking at the entire list of 11 BLs, 10 of them are going to dump on the metagame the same way they did last time because the changes that have occurred since then have had no effect on UU's ability to deal with them. If you disagree and can make a case for any of them, please do so.
You admit that of the 11 BLs, one of them may not be overpowering in UU? If so, you've defeated your own argument.

And again - nobody is saying retest BL Pokemon for no reason. I even gave a method to select potential Pokemon to retest. Did you see it?

@franky - I think the best way to retest a BL Pokemon is to host a tournament. I'd be interested in hosting one actually. Preliminarily, I'd make it thus:

Eligibility: anyone who meets the voting reqs. People who make upper reqs get priority. About 40 players.
Format: 6-round Swiss. This is for there to be as many games and so as much raw material as possible.
Each player can nominate a currently BL Pokemon to retest. A reason is not necessary since it's a test. The host will then choose which metagames to play in those 6 rounds. Right now it seems Crobat has the most supporters, so the host might even make 3 of those 6 rounds a Crobat-inclusion metagame, for example, so players can test different teams against different opponents / playstyles. Other possible metagames might be one with Crobat + Abomasnow, or Raikou + Abomasnow + Honckrow or whatever.

I'd ask for permission to host the tournament, but if there's no chance of retesting BLs then there's not much point ...

EDIT: Oh, and tournament applications are currently closed, too.
 

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