Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

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Aberforth

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Calling it out cause everyone knows and it's stupid to pretend otherwise.

I personally feel Ho-oh probably could drop down to A or A- or so, as i said already. But C+ is ludicrously too far. The amount it does for a team, offensively and defensively, is significant enough that putting it on the same level as mons like Buzzwole and Klefki is a massive overreaction. Defensively as a check to most marshadow/xerneas sets, offensively against teams without Zygarde and hard stall it remains good, and hazard control is not nearly as bad as what it would need to be for Ho-oh to be down that low considering what it does for well made ho-oh balance teams. Goth is good but it's nowhere near the death of Ho-oh.

I can go into more detail when i have more time to put together a more thorough post, but C+ is so far away from what makes sense that I really dont see the need to.
 
it's interesting how badged users can use ad hominems without getting their posts deleted.

on topic:
OK, so then, right of the bat, what you are saying about bulky goth balances, which are supposingly "dominating the metagame", can't be considered: if you take snake draft, only four games out of 15 were featuring goth, and even then, out of these 4 games, the goth player only had a 50% win rate (whereas Ho-Oh build were able to win the 2 games where they appeared).
Then, in your post, you are only talking about 1 bad match-up: the one versus goth. And while it is true that goth give Ho-Oh trouble because of its ability to remove defogger, Ho-Oh is great versus a large amount of other playstyles, such as offense (where is it, after rocks are being removed, able to check a large number of threats with its defensive set, namely, M-Lucario, Marshadow if not rock tomb, Deoxys-A ( Who can't OHko it with Psycho-boost and a modest nature under the psychic terrain, while the bird can immediately switch out and regain its health), M-Gengar, or also Yveltal), balanced and stall (where is it able to punch huge holes into the opposing team thanks to the choice band).
In conclusion, while it is true that the rise of Goth does dent Ho-Oh's viability, it still does not mean at all that Ho-Oh is as good as mons like Solgaleo, which is outclassed in nearly every way by Magearna as a bulky pivot, and by Mega-Scizor as a sweeper, or Dugtrio, which only works against weakened Primal Groudon and Magearna
i only used snake draft in context of pdon's sr meta. my arguments for ho-oh's drop is largely theorymon at this point. since people are still not catching on the meta changes that i believe will happen within 6 months (considering how slow it's for ubers players/ladderers to adopt new ideas). it's not just goth that ho-oh as to contend against. it's in addition of current defog pressures from toxic, gengar, offense trends, taunt, momentum loss, and toxic spikes. i believe that goth has finally tipped the balance between defog and sr to sr's favor. it's true that ho-oh is able to check a vast swath of meta when SR IS NOT UP. that is the key. please run ho-oh calcs with sr up. you'll be shocked to see how useless ho-oh is.

c+ is a mess. you are correct about ho-oh being better than solgaleo because solg should be in C or below. Scizor is much better than ho-oh, i would raise it to B. Dugtrio used to be trendy but it's a niche pokemon which i think has approximately equivalent size of niche as ho-oh's, so I would leave dugtrio as it is.
 
Locking this until people cool it.

Orch is insane but understand his trump tactics here- this as a "big ask" type of strstegy anyway.

VR council will likely move hooh down since there has been more compelling arguments from that side. The only reason this half promise can be broken is if the council makes counterarguments because yes, I totally agree that those have been lacking.

Ill also clean up and infract and edit posts liberally
 
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Long cool off period, eh? With USM right around the corner (it's probably out somewhere already) and Snake Draft finished up, we came together for a "final" SM update to this thread. As usual there were a bunch of internal nominations aimed at keeping things that may have been overlooked up to date, and this time I will be showing the spreadsheet we used for reasoning publicly in order to clear up any concerns about the council's lack of reasoning posts in here and give some insights. Here it is! If this proves popular, perhaps we will continue it in USM. Anyway, here's the list:

Update List

Arceus-Ground: S >> A+
Ho-Oh: A+ >> A
Mega Lucario: A >> A-
Zygarde-C: A >> A+
Yveltal: A >> A+
Gothitelle: B- >> A-
Mega Diancie: B+ >> B
Mega Latias: Unranked >> C
Arceus-Grass: C- >> C+

Wouldn't be an Ubers VR if it didn't have a near-empty A, right? We will probably look into balancing this out with community feedback.

If a nomination was missed, it either failed a sanity check or I completely missed it.

I'll leave this thread open for community feedback on this update and to add other potential nominations until the USM thread starts, which is likely to be... within a month of the metagame's start tomorrow? Time will tell. The new thread will also be hosted by yours truly. Going forward into USM we will be on the lookout for prospering community members to add to our VR Council and QC teams, so show us your contribution!
 

Ropalme1914

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I really liked the update, especially for Yveltal, who I don't think should have leaved A+ from the first place, and Zygarde-C. I still feel like Mega Gengar should be S, but I won't make a formal nomination for it at least for now because I'm on my phone so I don't have the replays. To drop my own nomination, I would like to suggest Cloyster to B, and here's why:
- It can pressure most Pokémon used as hazard control right now: Arceus-Ground, Giratina, Mega Salamence, forcing them to switch out or risking getting a huge damage/letting it setup a free Shell Smash, and while it won't do much against both Arceus-Fairy and Arceus-Water, it will probably still be able to lay one hazard at the end due to it being slower than them.
- It is the only effective user of Toxic Spikes right now. Arceus-Ground, Arceus-Fairy, Primal Groudon, Xerneas, Primal Kyogre and offensive Zygarde-C are just some of the Pokémon that hates that specific hazard and are super proeminent now.
- Though that might not be a very good argument because its not a metagame change, I also think it is just underrated. Cloyster has the best overrall lead matchup on HO (wins against Excadrill, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-A, can make Primal Groudon and can leave Yveltal at any priority range if it is not flinched by Dark Pulse, while also being able to Rapid Spin most of the hazard that the opponents puts if against another HO. It really only loses against Smeargle with Spore and Shuckle). I can't see it being two subranks below Deoxys-S, who while has Taunt, Magic Coat, Stealth Rock and the greatest Speed in the game, cannot do anything back to any Pokémon, and is deadweight after it already layered down its hazards (Cloyster is not great Pokémon for midgame and won't survive for late game, but it can find some setups opportunits against defensives teams sometimes), with both sharing the also great but rare Spikes. I also legitimate think that Cloyster HO is much better than Sticky Web right now, but Smeargle is pretty close to it anyways so it does not really matters.
Edit: forgot to say, but putting the councils thoughts on why they voted X Pokémon for that rank is also great and should be continued.
 
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I think it would be better to move Cloyster up in its own rank (to the top) a bit than to raise it to B as you mentioned Ropalme1914, although somewhere in the bottom half of B would be okay too I guess. I know most of your experience is with the Cloyster team you spam on ladder (I use it as well it's pretty good) so most of your positives are coming from the perspective of that environment where a lot of people spam the typical offenses you state it has good matchups in. Outside of those matchups with offensive teams Cloyster is still a bit matchup based against fatter squads, especially ones with Toxapex, Arceus Water, and support against Mega Gengar and the success of those teams is based on everything else as opposed to Cloyster, such as the DDance Zygarde variant that was reflected in the most recent change which I see a lot on these Cloyster teams in those instances you'll see a lot.

A rank was already mentioned as looking weird but I mean you could probably put the top 3 up in A- on the lower end of A with Celesteela and Ho-Oh below the Arc forms and it would be an okay A rank I guess? I'm not a big fan of Ho-Oh anymore, due to necessities it requires in Defog support and specific partners to function, so that's more bias but people love the defensive set still so I guess we'll let the hype die down first.

With the exception of Ropalmes well thought out nom I stop caring after about the mid B- ranks when I reference this. Nice job to VR team and contributors this thread was helpful in getting a grasp on Ubers when I started so props to you all.
 
Which Dragon Dance set are people talking about with Zygarde? It's just in Other Options in the analysis, which I'm assuming is out of date.
 
Which Dragon Dance set are people talking about with Zygarde? It's just in Other Options in the analysis, which I'm assuming is out of date.
dd / sub / waves / dragon tail. i legitmately don't know any good counter to this set outside cloyster and whimiscott. goth is still too low btw.
 
Long cool off period, eh? With USM right around the corner (it's probably out somewhere already) and Snake Draft finished up, we came together for a "final" SM update to this thread. As usual there were a bunch of internal nominations aimed at keeping things that may have been overlooked up to date, and this time I will be showing the spreadsheet we used for reasoning publicly in order to clear up any concerns about the council's lack of reasoning posts in here and give some insights. Here it is! If this proves popular, perhaps we will continue it in USM. Anyway, here's the list:

Update List

Arceus-Ground: S >> A+
Ho-Oh: A+ >> A
Mega Lucario: A >> A-
Zygarde-C: A >> A+
Yveltal: A >> A+
Gothitelle: B- >> A-
Mega Diancie: B+ >> B
Mega Latias: Unranked >> C
Arceus-Grass: C- >> C+

Wouldn't be an Ubers VR if it didn't have a near-empty A, right? We will probably look into balancing this out with community feedback.

If a nomination was missed, it either failed a sanity check or I completely missed it.

I'll leave this thread open for community feedback on this update and to add other potential nominations until the USM thread starts, which is likely to be... within a month of the metagame's start tomorrow? Time will tell. The new thread will also be hosted by yours truly. Going forward into USM we will be on the lookout for prospering community members to add to our VR Council and QC teams, so show us your contribution!
Thanks for the last update! It is a good update, too!

Nice to see Zygarde - Complete and Yveltal in A+ tier where they belong! I think it will take a while for a new Uber tier for Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon to be produce because the M.E.T.A has to develop with new Pokemon in the way. I think Mega Gengar can stay in A+, the only reason why I can see it going into S tier in Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon is because of it being used as a solid check to Ultra Necrozma.

Also Zygarde - Complete for S tier in Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon? Sounds like a stretch, but it is really good though, it helped me a lot in Ubers. Though I am also not sure about it because of it's flaws. Just thinking of something interesting.

Speaking of Ultra Necrozma, what tier do you users think it will end up in the future?

goth is still too low btw.
No. A- tier is fine for now, but I do not know if it should hit A tier or above. It is just too much of an overreaction. Just be happy it even rose from B- to A- in the first place.
 
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Wrong. Goth is clearly S rank as I said in my initial ranking post. You just need to go to Summer Seasonals Tournament thread and watch through replays. You'll realize that finalists are the ones who used Gothitelle extensively, usually prioritizing it over pokemon such as Primal Groudon.
 
Wrong. Goth is clearly S rank as I said in my initial ranking post. You just need to go to Summer Seasonals Tournament thread and watch through replays. You'll realize that finalists are the ones who used Gothitelle extensively, usually prioritizing it over pokemon such as Primal Groudon.
I am aware you stated this post earlier. You think Gothitelle is in S rank?


I apologize if that was too offensive, but that is my personal view on your opinion. I understand your opinion, but that is mine.

A- is good for it for now, but not A or higher.
 
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Wrong. Goth is clearly S rank as I said in my initial ranking post. You just need to go to Summer Seasonals Tournament thread and watch through replays. You'll realize that finalists are the ones who used Gothitelle extensively, usually prioritizing it over pokemon such as Primal Groudon.
>finalists are the ones who used Gothitelle extensively usually prioritizing it over pokemon such as Primal Groudon.
Are you feeling ok? You should get some rest, you might be coming down with something.
 
Wrong. Goth is clearly S rank as I said in my initial ranking post. You just need to go to Summer Seasonals Tournament thread and watch through replays. You'll realize that finalists are the ones who used Gothitelle extensively, usually prioritizing it over pokemon such as Primal Groudon.
I am aware you stated this post earlier. But S rank?


I apologize if that was too offensive, but that is my personal view on your opinion. I understand your opinion, but that is mine.

A- is good for it for now, but not A or higher.
I agree, but I'm going to try to be more objective about it, using this definition of S rank:
The S rank is for mons that have amazing versatility, can fit on pretty much every team, can run multiple viable sets, and are just good in general.
That said, Goth debatably fits at most half of the things stated. However, there is one thing that absolutely must be considered: Goth isn't versatile. It really has only one set. Don't argue that it varies a bit. That's not what I mean. Goth only does one thing. I don't give a damn about how well it does that thing, it's still pretty predictable. Compare this to Xerneas. Its sets do radically different things and vary a lot. Goth isn't worthy of S. Don't argue for it to go there, you'd just be wasting your time (and probably everyone else's when you get this thread locked again).
 
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Don't really care where Goth is ranked, but wasn't it decided ages ago that ranking definitions don't matter and shouldn't be used to determine where a Pokemon is placed?
 
I agree, but I'm going to try to be more objective about it, using this definition of S rank:
That said, Goth debatably fits at most half of the things stated. However, there is one thing that absolutely must be considered: Goth isn't versatile. It really has one, maybe two. Don't argue that it varies a bit. That's not what I mean. Goth only does one thing. I don't give a damn about how well it does that thing, it's still pretty predictable. Compare this to Xerneas. Its sets do radically different things and vary a lot. Goth isn't worthy of S. Don't argue for it to go there, you'd just be wasting your time (and probably everyone else's when you get this thread locked again).
^
THIS.

I mean it is good with Shadow Tag and can threaten many Pokemon, but that is about it. I could go on about the list of counters and checks for it like taunt Yveltal and Revenge killers and much more. Thanks for pointing more information to support my claim!

( EDIT: Yes, I am aware of all of your Shadow Tag posts. Fixed my post. )
 
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earl

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THIS.

I mean, it is in PU for crying out loud, even though tiers kind of do not apply in this Uber tier. I could go on about the list of coutners and checks for it like taunt Yveltal and Revenge killers and much more. Thanks for pointing this out.
Well that's a bit of an uneducated point of it being in PU, as it's not Goth that was banned, it was Shadow Tag. I can assure you that Shadow Tag Goth would be terrifying in PU
 
Goth is fine where it is, there are 2 new viable defoggers now that pressure goth and are extremely common, Xern and YGod, most notably Yveltal, as Goth fails to touch Yveltal while Yveltal can Defog in its face or hit it hard with its moves. Xern isn't that good but can threaten Goth on the switch if it mispredicts and comes in on Moonblast (I think Scarf Xern is most common defogger):
252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle: 141-166 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Goth cannot come in safely. (As opposed to 0 investment Supportceus who can only 4HKO)
Lunala also beats Goth and has Defog
 
USM discussion is not for this thread. After some internal debate we decided that nothing in A- was really worth a promotion to A, and there was a similar story for the mons in A+ too. Getting the council to debate lower ranked mons in SM at this point is also a waste of time. To avoid USM derailing this thread will now be locked and left frozen for archiving purposes - SM Ubers is very likely not going to see any serious tournament play again due to how we handle new games in the same generation, but this thread can always be looked at for an answer to "what was SM Ubers like?".

Stay tuned for a USM VR in a couple of weeks.
 
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