Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

[Nayrz]

It would be nice to know the reasoning behind those who voted to keep Mega Gengar at S, given that there is no argument for that in this thread since Hack's post, and ergo no rebuttal to his many points.

Forgot to respond to this - the answer is that I cannot count numbers. The vote was actually FOR Gengar to drop so this one is on me. For proof here's the section of the spreadsheet with reasoning:

That's 3 agree to 2 disagree with 1 abstain - I had confused myself and interpreted it the other way around. Since the update post some things were also clarified and edited into it, but to showcase it, Giratina's nom was missed and has now been discussed, putting it in B- (above Toxapex), and Arceus-Ground was adjusted slightly to be above Mega Lucario. Everything -should- be fixed up on our side.

One thing I would like to highlight is that currently, S and mid A are pretty empty, with things looking somewhat "unbalanced" in the top ranks. Discussion around these areas could be looked into to judge if we can better position the rankings. This may be looked at internally too, but community input is always looked for.

 

[Minority]

For me, seeing Mega Gar in the same letter grade as Mega Luke is silly. This seems to be a combination of people overhyping this Mega Luke trend, while simultaneously falling into complacency with Gar. Fact is Gar is still extremely dangerous and potent, this still hasn't changed since 12/2/16. It has no direct counters because of its unique ability, and even the best one, Alolan-Muk, is susceptible to residual damage, is easy set up bait for phys attackers, and can be defeated if Gar wants to defeat it (see moves like WoW, Sub, and Reflect Type). It's also important that Mega Gar has pretty good utility versus any archetype it faces.

I think people still tend to underestimate bulky teams in the tier as of right now. These teams employ Pokemon such as Mega Slowbro, Arceus-Ground, or physically defensive Ho-Oh, which Mega Luke doesn't break (SE can beat Ho-Oh, but now you lose to things like Sab). Its utility versus offense is almost entirely limited to Bullet Punch, and its best reactive utility vs offense, revenging Xern, can be bypassed by Z Geo sets. Non bulky teams also tend to have options to provide additional cover for Mega Luke if they want, such as running faster Arcs or detailing something to revenge it. Luke's best matchup is probably balances / BOs, or specific defensive teams that also in their flaws are unable to keep Arc Ground healthy.

With that said, I still think the situation seems to be a case of Mega Luke being over ranked. A few days ago it was ranked even higher than Arceus-Ground, which thankfully was rectified. However, still seeing it in A+ and over Arceus seems off, and I don't expect Arceus to be ranked lower in comparison until perhaps Marshadow is released.

 

[Aberforth]

Nayrz, with S, nothing else is on the same level as Xerneas or Groudon right now, for various reasons, so those should be the only two mons in S. The closest thing to S are things that just dropped, and stuff like Gengar/Ekiller are just not as good as they were in ORAS to justify them being higher than they are.

Saying that, with the As, I think if anything should move up, it should be Lunala, to the bottom of the list. It's effect on the meta is larger than stuff like Arceus-Dark and Arceus Water, and is part of the reason Arceus-Dark is as good as it is. It only has two sets, but both are very good at what you want them to do, and choice scarf is a massive threat against other offenses in the tier, practically mandating that they have a ghost resist, while also helping defensively check most offensive mons thanks to its ability, if you can keep rocks off the field. And the ZHypno set, if you can get lucky with inaccurate moves, can hurt bulkier teams without something like an Alolan-Muk.

I dont really think anything should move up, and maybe Lucario should go down back to A for the reasons MS mentioned, but if something was to move up I would say Lunala has a better shout than the rest, and that aside from that I think the rankings are currently good.

 

[INSULT]

can arceus-poison/steel go up some more to like the B's seeing as they counter zeo xern. Don't like how buzzwole is two ranks above them :/
(sorry for "unintelligent" response)

 

[Thimo]

Here is that post-SPL update, and its a decently sized one as everything between the last update and this one was looked over. As a reminder, every nom goes past our VR council and is voted on before being changed. Future updates will likely follow in around 3-4 week periods unless little has been discussed and everyone is somehow fine with the rankings. This update also lines up well, as we have now finished our skeleton stage in C&C, meaning that every Pokemon on the rankings will have a link to its dex entry! This also means that future nominations that are not featured at all on the rankings are now subject to having to pass the C&C process before being placed.

Update List:

Arceus-Dragon: B+ > B (above Tapu Lele)
Arceus-Ground: A > A+ (below Mega Salamence)
Arceus-Normal: A+ > A (Top of A)
Arceus-Water: A > A- (Top of A-)
Celesteela: B+ > A- (above Arceus-Ghost)
Giratina: C+ > B- (above Toxapex)
Klefki: B > B- (above Buzzwole)
Landorus-I: D > C+ (bottom of C+)
Mega Gyarados: C+ > B- (above Clefable)
Mega Lucario: A > A+ (bottom of A+)
Mega Mewtwo X: Unranked > B- (above Mewtwo)
Mega Mewtwo Y: Unranked > B (top of B)
Smeargle: C > C+ (above Wobbuffet)

Ho-Oh (A > A-), Deoxys-S (B+ > B), and Mega Gengar's (S > A+) nominations did not pass the council voting process, with Mega Gengar barely avoiding its drop via vote. That's it for this update!

y'all deadass ignored my Barbaracle nom

 

[Zrp200]

One thing I would like to highlight is that currently, S and mid A are pretty empty, with things looking somewhat "unbalanced" in the top ranks. Discussion around these areas could be looked into to judge if we can better position the rankings. This may be looked at internally too, but community input is always looked for.

If you want the upper rankings to seem less empty, you could just merge S+ and S since both just have one Pokemon in them

 

[keys]

If you want the rankings to seem less empty, you could just merge S+ and S since both just have one Pokemon in them

That would mean putting together two Pokemon that possess gargantuan disparities in terms of viability, so that's not an option.

 

[MSC Knightmare]

Question-

In D Rank, are the Arceus forms being ordered from best to worst, or alphabetically?

Edit- I just read the OP over again. My apologies for wasting your time :D

 

[kilometerman]

can arceus-poison/steel go up some more to like the B's seeing as they counter zeo xern. Don't like how buzzwole is two ranks above them :/
(sorry for "unintelligent" response)

Mons aren't ranked on their ability to check or counter another mon. They're ranked based on how good they perform in the tier overall. For example Bronzong is also a great check to Xerneas, but it also has barely any other uses. The same thing applies to Poisonceus and Steelceus. They simply get walled by too many mons prevalent in them meta, the biggest example being Pdon.

 

[MSC Knightmare]

I'm not necessarily nominating anything to go anywhere in particular, but I'm wondering, why is Iceceus so much higher than Flyceus? They both do essentially the same job and have about the same relevant type based weaknesses. P Don screws Iceceus with Fire STAB and Flyceus with SE. Ho Oh pressures Iceceus more. Maybe Iceceus has a better time against Mega Mence and Ray, but it can't switch in on either of them unless it's running a lot of bulk. So that boils it down, for me, to the fact that Iceceus can run a Z Crystal while Flyceus can't, but is all of that really enough to separate the 2 by such a large distance? Really just looking for some clarification here, thanks!

 

[INSULT]

Mons aren't ranked on their ability to check or counter another mon. They're ranked based on how good they perform in the tier overall. For example Bronzong is also a great check to Xerneas, but it also has barely any other uses. The same thing applies to Poisonceus and Steelceus. They simply get walled by too many mons prevalent in them meta, the biggest example being Pdon.

whats buzzwoles do tho, is checking arceus-normal its only relevant use?

 

[MSC Knightmare]

whats buzzwoles do tho, is checking arceus-normal its only relevant use?

Buzzwole is a very respectable physical tank/wall. It doesn't just check E Killer, it checks most physical threats that lack ways of hitting it super effectively. P Don w/o Fire STAB, SD Arceus w/o super effective moves, etc. Roost and a good attack stat give it a niche over the competition, since unlike Lugia, Zygarde, and Giratina, Buzzwole can actually hit back. And for the things it can't hit very hard, it has Toxic, which complements Roost and Buzzwole's bulk very nicely.

 

[Seirle]

I'm not necessarily nominating anything to go anywhere in particular, but I'm wondering, why is Iceceus so much higher than Flyceus? They both do essentially the same job and have about the same relevant type based weaknesses. P Don screws Iceceus with Fire STAB and Flyceus with SE. Ho Oh pressures Iceceus more. Maybe Iceceus has a better time against Mega Mence and Ray, but it can't switch in on either of them unless it's running a lot of bulk. So that boils it down, for me, to the fact that Iceceus can run a Z Crystal while Flyceus can't, but is all of that really enough to separate the 2 by such a large distance? Really just looking for some clarification here, thanks!

I think Ubers is a dragon-fairy meta now, most teams have one of them to be balanced and effective in the tier. Ice is one of the best offensive types and one of the worst in terms of defense so that's why it's in the middle of the 'ladder of viability' and you answered your own question about Flyceus, he can't run Z Crystal and there are so many steel types to cover the dragon-fairy meta where Iceceus can participate as well.

 

[aurora]

I'm not necessarily nominating anything to go anywhere in particular, but I'm wondering, why is Iceceus so much higher than Flyceus? They both do essentially the same job and have about the same relevant type based weaknesses. P Don screws Iceceus with Fire STAB and Flyceus with SE. Ho Oh pressures Iceceus more. Maybe Iceceus has a better time against Mega Mence and Ray, but it can't switch in on either of them unless it's running a lot of bulk. So that boils it down, for me, to the fact that Iceceus can run a Z Crystal while Flyceus can't, but is all of that really enough to separate the 2 by such a large distance? Really just looking for some clarification here, thanks!

They don't really do the same job. Arceus-Ice actually has a niche as a solid offensive check to very threatening Pokemon such as Mega Salamence and Zygarde-C, and is less of a wasted Arceus slot as it is by far the best Pokemon in the tier with Ice-type STAB. Arceus-Flying has problems standing out because it competes with so many other Flying-types and takes much longer to get going than Ho-Oh, Rayquaza and especially Mega Salamence. All of these are a lot easier to fit, whether it be due to higher immediate offensive presence, superior coverage, better defensive utility, or both. Why use your Arceus slot on Arceus-Flying when there are Pokemon that serve a similar function that can free it up? Swords Dance Arceus-Flying with a Z-Crystal can complement Mega Salamence... I guess... but you have Rayquaza for that as well, so that set is gimmicky at best. Yes, Arceus-Ice's awful defensive typing makes it hard to fit, but it at least comes with some sort of unique offensive utility. Arceus-Flying does not.

—

I agree with Minority; Mega Lucario could probably stand to drop below Arceus, or even Ho-Oh. Bulkier teams have adapted to it with developments such as faster support Arceus formes, Fireburn's Arceus-Water, and physically defensive Ho-Oh. As an example, this is made quite visible by how it struggles to break through the current definitive stall team of the metagame. It's still extremely threatening and can (usually) check what it's supposed to check but it isn't A+. It struggles in too many matchups for that.

I also think Alolan Muk should be higher in B+. I don't think its current position illustrates its efficacy on defensive teams at checking Xerneas and being possibly the best Pursuit trapper / one of the best Ghost and Deoxys-A checks in the tier.

 

[Exiline]

Ayaa
I feel like gengar is not on the same level than the other A+ mons but I do agree than Xerneas is a step ahead overall.
So I have a suggestion: why don't we create a new rank S- with Gengar inside ? At my eyes it look way more accurate about gengar viability in the current metagame.

 

[Vengeance417]

Mons aren't ranked on their ability to check or counter another mon. They're ranked based on how good they perform in the tier overall. For example Bronzong is also a great check to Xerneas, but it also has barely any other uses. The same thing applies to Poisonceus and Steelceus. They simply get walled by too many mons prevalent in them meta, the biggest example being Pdon.

I'm not really asking for Poisonceus to rise or anything, but I wouldn't say Pdon completely walls Poisonceus, as its main set is SD + Earthquake which can kill bulky Pdon at +2 after some chip, which is made possible by spamming Poison Jab to fish for the 30% Poisons early-mid game. That's one of its main niches as an SD Arceus-forme (chipping away at its non-steel checks by potentially poisoning them early on), but Alolan Muk does this much better thanks to Poison Touch stacking with Poison Jab's 30% chance and also not taking an Arceus slot.

Also, it's a much better stop to most Xerneas sets thanks to it not being weak to Focus Blast, unlike Steelceus. Meanwhile, both Poisonceus and Steelceus can freely switch in on most support Pokemon that rely on Toxic to dish out damage, such as Lugia and Arceus-Water/Dragon, and use them as set up fodder. Poisonceus has the benefit of being able to keep Lugia's Multiscale broken if it manages to score a Poison on it while also dealing with Waterceus easier than Steelceus can.

I'd personally like to see Poisonceus above Steelceus just based on the fact that it checks Xerneas much easier and it can whittle its checks with Poison Jab's 30% Poison status while also using some support mons as set up fodder, but I wouldn't be butthurt about it not rising, as it still has a lot of flaws that hinder its viability (really hard to make a team around it, takes up a precious Arceus slot, Zygarde-C completely walls it, most Steels that aren't Ground-weak wall it to hell and back such as Celesteela, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn, Ghosts, especially Mega Sableye, Giratina-O, and Arceus-Ghost give it a tough time and Pdon can handle it at full health.)

 

[MSC Knightmare]

I'm not really asking for Poisonceus to rise or anything, but I wouldn't say Pdon completely walls Poisonceus, as its main set is SD + Earthquake which can kill bulky Pdon at +2 after some chip, which is made possible by spamming Poison Jab to fish for the 30% Poisons early-mid game. That's one of its main niches as an SD Arceus-forme (chipping away at its non-steel checks by potentially poisoning them early on), but Alolan Muk does this much better thanks to Poison Touch stacking with Poison Jab's 30% chance and also not taking an Arceus slot.

Also, it's a much better stop to most Xerneas sets thanks to it not being weak to Focus Blast, unlike Steelceus. Meanwhile, both Poisonceus and Steelceus can freely switch in on most support Pokemon that rely on Toxic to dish out damage, such as Lugia and Arceus-Water/Dragon, and use them as set up fodder. Poisonceus has the benefit of being able to keep Lugia's Multiscale broken if it manages to score a Poison on it while also dealing with Waterceus easier than Steelceus can.

I'd personally like to see Poisonceus above Steelceus just based on the fact that it checks Xerneas much easier and it can whittle its checks with Poison Jab's 30% Poison status while also using some support mons as set up fodder, but I wouldn't be butthurt about it not rising, as it still has a lot of flaws that hinder its viability (really hard to make a team around it, takes up a precious Arceus slot, Zygarde-C completely walls it, most Steels that aren't Ground-weak wall it to hell and back such as Celesteela, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn, Ghosts, especially Mega Sableye, Giratina-O, and Arceus-Ghost give it a tough time and Pdon can handle it at full health.)

SD + EQ on any SD Arceus form can threaten Groudon, but the best Arceus forms, namely E Killer or Groundceus who would have reason to run EQ, wouldn't get annihilated by a single Precipice Blades.

It stops Xerneas, which is great, but so do other Pokémon like Alolan-Muk, Magearna, Toxapex under certain conditions, and even Lugia or P Don itself can beat non Z-Geo Xern. You don't need to pick an Arceus form for 1 specific matchup, especially one that can't touch the majority of the tier's Steel types and gets plowed by the tier's best Mon in the game.

Maybe P Don doesn't wall it, but if you can't drop P Don in 1 hit, you're going down. E Killer, Groundceus, and other SD forms w/ EQ don't have that issue.

 

[Vengeance417]

SD + EQ on any SD Arceus form can threaten Groudon, but the best Arceus forms, namely E Killer or Groundceus who would have reason to run EQ, wouldn't get annihilated by a single Precipice Blades.

It stops Xerneas, which is great, but so do other Pokémon like Alolan-Muk, Magearna, Toxapex under certain conditions, and even Lugia or P Don itself can beat non Z-Geo Xern. You don't need to pick an Arceus form for 1 specific matchup, especially one that can't touch the majority of the tier's Steel types and gets plowed by the tier's best Mon in the game.

Maybe P Don doesn't wall it, but if you can't drop P Don in 1 hit, you're going down. E Killer, Groundceus, and other SD forms w/ EQ don't have that issue.

You missed the part where I said "as its main set is SD + Earthquake which can kill bulky Pdon at +2 after some chip, which is made possible by spamming Poison Jab to fish for the 30% Poisons early-mid game." You're not gonna want to attempt a Poisonceus sweep with a healthy Pdon in the back.

You also basically repeated nearly everything I said in my previous post. I already acknowledged that Poisonceus has crippling flaws that revolve around its horrible matchup vs most of the tier, including the many Steels you mentioned. All in all, we already both agree that Poisonceus is a shitmon, but it has a few niches that at least let it stand out, hence why I never even asked for this thing to rise. All that post was for was to counter the idea that Pdon walls Poisonceus, which it doesn't, and to add that Poisonceus does more than one thing (not only stop Xerneas but use support mons that rely on Toxic for stalling teams as setup fodder).

 

[orch]

Nominating following pokemons for C+:

Krookodile
Eevee
Mew
Espeon

Because baton pass.

 

[MSC Knightmare]

You missed the part where I said "as its main set is SD + Earthquake which can kill bulky Pdon at +2 after some chip, which is made possible by spamming Poison Jab to fish for the 30% Poisons early-mid game." You're not gonna want to attempt a Poisonceus sweep with a healthy Pdon in the back.

You also basically repeated nearly everything I said in my previous post. I already acknowledged that Poisonceus has crippling flaws that revolve around its horrible matchup vs most of the tier, including the many Steels you mentioned. All in all, we already both agree that Poisonceus is a shitmon, but it has a few niches that at least let it stand out, hence why I never even asked for this thing to rise. All that post was for was to counter the idea that Pdon walls Poisonceus, which it doesn't, and to add that Poisonceus does more than one thing (not only stop Xerneas but use support mons that rely on Toxic for stalling teams as setup fodder).

Okay. In that case, I would feel inclined to agree.

 

[mushamu]

Okay. In that case, I would feel inclined to agree.

Wait since when did an arceus with a spooky plate able to hold Z crystals?

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Wait since when did an arceus with a spooky plate able to hold Z crystals?

There's no need, z-crystals change arceus's type.

 

[Fawfulmk-II]

Huh. I was expecting Magearna to be higher, since it sorta screams "I was made to kill Xerneas in the games and TCG.", though I suppose it having nothing to do against Primal G or any other steel types held it back a bit. I t seemed more designed for doubles play anyway.

 

[squinn]

rank pyukumuku?
with unaware and moves like psych up, z purify and baton pass its probably worth mentioning

 

[Abirra]

i don't think that ground arceus can sweep as per expected, normal arceus sweeps better still, having a few good checks but still good. Ground arceus doesn't really deserves a place in A+ in my opinion.