SM UU Beta (Mewnium Z, Staraptor, Victini banned)

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G-Luke

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This is up to the council to be fair. Drizzle is, in my opinion, the problem, because Swift Swim isn't broken without Drizzle. Also, rain abusers are not only Swift Swim users; Toxicroak, Azumarill, Volcanion, Keldeo, Thundurus, Heliolisk, Tornadus, Tentacruel and other Water-types are really annoying under rain.
The point I made is Rain supports great playstyles, but the presence of Swift Swim pushes it over the edge. Rain Offence (lacking SwiftSwim) threatens balance teams, but crumbles to HO, teams packing a water resist(s) and teams packing fast Electric and Grass types. Banning Swift Swim isn't unprecedented either, as in BW OU banned the use of Swift Swim + Drizzle, Tier Shift in XY era banned Swift Swim and even UU banned Swift Swim (without Drizzle's impact mind you). The point is I believe Drizzle can still have a positive and healthy presence on the tier if Swift Swim gets the banhammer.
 
The point I made is Rain supports great playstyles, but the presence of Swift Swim pushes it over the edge. Rain Offence (lacking SwiftSwim) threatens balance teams, but crumbles to HO, teams packing a water resist(s) and teams packing fast Electric and Grass types. Banning Swift Swim isn't unprecedented either, as in BW OU banned the use of Swift Swim + Drizzle, Tier Shift in XY era banned Swift Swim and even UU banned Swift Swim (without Drizzle's impact mind you). The point is I believe Drizzle can still have a positive and healthy presence on the tier if Swift Swim gets the banhammer.
When did XY UU ban swift swim?

But I agree that Drizzle can be healthy. The time limit of 5 (or 8 with damp rock) hinders all weather. But, I think each SS user had different checks and counters. Gastro alone can counter most abusers (Kabutops, non-Bloom Doom Volc, non hp grass keldeo, non grass knot Thundy, etc...). We also have anti-meta styles like TR and Hail which can cause issues with fast rain abusers by flipping the speed or spamming Freeze Dry, DTail Kyurem, etc...).

Having solid water checks is important in general with BDZ Azu, Volc and Keldeo in the tier. Even previous threats like Suicune always need a solid answer.
 
anyone know when the new drops will actually be allowed on showdown?

also

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH NASTY PLOT FIGHT Z THUNDURUS WITH A FAT TEAM or do u just not bc it literally kills everything lmao ugh

also other than chesnaught (and bad fortress) i cant think of any bulky spikers D:
 

Surgeon

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anyone know when the new drops will actually be allowed on showdown?

also

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH NASTY PLOT FIGHT Z THUNDURUS WITH A FAT TEAM or do u just not bc it literally kills everything lmao ugh

also other than chesnaught (and bad fortress) i cant think of any bulky spikers D:
Lati is a nice check, needs SR damage to OHKO tho.

252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 228-268 (76.2 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On another note, Klefki is one of the best spike setters in the tier imo. It can easily check some of the most common hazard removers, like Latias, and even the likes of Scizor if it packs HP Fire. And opposed to Forre, its not setup bait to most setup mons like Gatr since it can just cripple them with T-Wave.
 
Lati is a nice check, needs SR damage to OHKO tho.

252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 228-268 (76.2 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On another note, Klefki is one of the best spike setters in the tier imo. It can easily check some of the most common hazard removers, like Latias, and even the likes of Scizor if it packs HP Fire. And opposed to Forre, its not setup bait to most setup mons like Gatr since it can just cripple them with T-Wave.
ooh forgot about klefki thanks!
also ya lati is quite the shaky check D: i suppose its one of the better checks thats slower than thundy
 
Shoutout to Arcanine for keeping it real in UU since 1996! For over 20 years and throughout every single generation thus far! :)
Wish I could say the same about Gengar in OU...

Actually, speaking of Gengar, what are some good partners for it in the current meta? Fighting-types in general seem like good picks, since Gengar handles Fairy- and Ghost-types for them, but what have you guys been using?
 
So, the introduction of Mantine and Clefable sounds like a great addition to fatter teams. Mantine has the potential to overthrow other bulky water types, with an excellent typing to go along with its movepool and special bulk. Clefable just screams multi-purpose, being able to fill almost any role you'd want in a team.

The tier in general is also leaning in the direction of defensive flying types taking over. Togekiss and Gliscor are both splashable mons, capable of doing work in almost any team they're put in (w/ proper support obv). With fast electric stab + hp ice users on the rise in attempts to counter this, I've found an interesting anti-meta choice. Nidoqueen.

Now, I know I'm not the first to use Queen; she's been seeing a rise in usage since beta ended. But with the introduction of Mantine and Clef, I feel that she can find even more of a reason to be on a team. She naturally outspeeds both Mantine and Clef, and has the natural bulk to tank hits from the above threats I've mentioned. Sludge/E-Power/Ice Beam is an effective offensive coverage, and you can usually get away with having rocks for an offensive rock setter. If Mantine or other water types are particularly troublesome, though, you can run t-bolt as well. Clef is hard countered by Queen, her CM set doing almost nothing to her as well as taking huge damage from sludge wave regardless of prior boosts.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. +1 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 242-289 (61.4 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 84-99 (22.9 - 27%) -- 52.1% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 291-343 (77.8 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The common fast electric types in the tier don't appreciate Queen, either. Her standard bulky set can dodge a 2HKO from non-LO Thundurus, and can tank a hit from specs Raikou or Jolteon in case you mispredict. Keep in mind that Queen can only work as a check, as something as small as a spike can be enough for Thundurus to NP sweep. She can take on the electric types, but not forever.

Outside of checking the above, Queen functions amazingly as a wallbreaker and offensive hazard setter. I've found t-spikes to be more useful on her than rocks, as stall teams make Queen all but useless otherwise. I've also been recycling Queen's old XY set, but the changes in the tier may call for a redistribution of her EVs - the surge in max speed base 70s may make the idea of more speed investment a better idea than hp. However, it's really up to you as to what best suits your team.
 
Wish I could say the same about Gengar in OU...

Actually, speaking of Gengar, what are some good partners for it in the current meta? Fighting-types in general seem like good picks, since Gengar handles Fairy- and Ghost-types for them, but what have you guys been using?
I've actually yet to try a Gengar/fighting core. Gengar would probably appreciate a wallbreaker, though: Conk or Mienshao can do that quite well.

I feel that having Bisharp would be a more effective core, though. Bisharp can pursuit trap the psychic/ghost types, and threaten out fairies. In turn, conk/shao can take on common Bisharp checks like dark types or Cobalion.
 
Anyone else finding Keldeo to be a little underwhelming? With things like Latias, Azu, and Primarina running around, it isn't nearly as good as I thought it would be. The specs set is great, but I feel like the meta has adapted to cover Keldeo pretty well, making things like CroCune my preferred water type when making balanced teams.

On another note, I am finding myself enjoying using Celebi more and more. It is a good check to most electric types, being able to sponge thunderbolts/hp ice's from Raikou and Thundurus. It only has to watch out for the rare Fly/Z-Fly Thundurus. It's specially defensive set with U-turn is great for grabbing momentum, and acts as a good soft check to things like LO Latias. It's a good blanket check to most water types, and it has awesome support moves in recover, thunder wave, perish song, and stealth rock. It can even run something like HP Fire to deal with Scizor and Forretress. The offensive set is also good, but I prefer defensive celebi sets.
 
Keldeo was pretty underwhelming for me, with scarf it outspeed a lot of Pokémon but there are so many bulky Pokémon to switch in to keldeo so you really have to make aggresive plays. If you don't want Primarina switching into one of your moves and hitting harder with one of its moves, you either have to double predicting the switch or use HP Electric on the switch but it still doesn't 2HKO even with specs sometimes if they have max HP. I started using the Z-Hyper Beam set, your opponent thinks you are scarfed and locked into a move and you use breakneck blitz if you have enough damage to KO and you get rid of one of your opponent's bulky Pokémon. A 200 Base Special move coming from Keldeo hurts.

252 SpA Keldeo Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 233-275 (54 - 63.8%)
252 SpA Keldeo Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 261-308 (71.7 - 84.6%)
252 SpA Keldeo Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 191-225 (55.5 - 65.4%)
252 SpA Keldeo Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%)
252 SpA Keldeo Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 173-204 (54.2 - 63.9%)

It still needs damage to KO these Pokémon, but if you can use it at the right time, it can do wonders for your team.
 
Keldeo's best set really is Scarf, in part because it outspeeds most other common Scarfers, and it's now ridiculous speed lets it check some other mons, such as, say, Mega Aero. But Keldeo has been really hurt by these New drops, since all of them can switch into Keldeo's common moves with ease, on top of his previous, already existing checks.
 

ehT

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Keldeo's typing has always been flawed, as Water / Fighting is pretty easy to wall, but what makes it amazing is, on top of how powerful it is by itself, just how easy it is to compensate for its shortcomings in teambuilding. Save for Primarina, all the best Keldeo switch-ins -- Latias, Slowbro/king, Amoonguss, Tentacruel -- are all easy to exploit or punish, although the burn nerf makes it a bit harder to punish them nowadays. There's a reason Keld + Pursuit, which is just one way to capitalize off of the nature of Keldeo's checks, has always been so brutal, and it's because a well-placed Pursuit is often all you need to open you up to spam your STAB's with abandon. If that wasn't the case, Keldeo would definitely struggle a bit more, but the playstyles it enables are so potent that I can't see it as anything less than amazing.
 
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I don't think that Keldeo is underwhelming, I just think that people forgot how dangerous it is. Keldeo is checked by lots of Pokémon Pokémon (Primarina, Azumarill, Latias, Celebi, Slowbro, Slowking), but a Pokémon can check other Pokémon too. Keldeo has a really, really solid defensive typing, checking stupidly powerful attackers like Bisharp, Scizor, Krookodile, and others, like Water-types that are CM baits. Keldeo can run lots of sets too, I'll just name some of them:
  • Choice Scarf
  • Choice Specs
  • SubCM
  • Calm Mind + Waterium Z + Icy Wind
  • Calm Mind + Normalium Z (Hyper Beam)
  • Z-Rain Dance
  • TauntCM
  • Taunt + 3 Attacks
  • RestTalk
All these sets are viable, perfectly viable, to be fair. The three most common sets are by far the Choice and SubCM, and they're already dangerous enough. Calm Mind sets with Z-Stones are amazing, not only because they are actually really hard to switch-in, but because bluffing with them is extremely easy. Z-Rain Dance is also a nice tool, since it allows Keldeo sweep the late game, outspeeding most Scarfers like Mienshao and super fast shit, like Mega Aero. Taunt sets are also surprisingly good, as they don't let Keldeo's checks work as well as they wanted to, like Mantine (TauntCM is actually a really good stallbreaker). Lastly, RestTalk allows Keldeo check what it checks, but with more reliability.

OK, after talking about Keldeo's sets, take a good look at your teams on Pokémon Showdown, and please, what team can handle all these sets? I mean, of course you can't cover all the sets, I'm just trying to show you how Keldeo is splashable and how it's dangerous. Keldeo is a beast when paired with Pokémon that provide Spikes and Pursuit support, since most of its checks have to be at full health to take its hits or are extremely vulnerable to Pursuit (cough Latias cough). I know why people are sleeping on it though; its checks are basically in every sort of team, however they're usually not checking only Keldeo, so they're overloaded by the rest of the dangerous attackers. Keldeo is not underwhelming, people are just sleeping on it.
 
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to be fair i think without Ttar to trap a lot of specs keldeo's switchins reliably, as well as fairy typing(primarina and azumarill off top of head) proving to be not as trappable using pursuit is what makes keldeo a bit underwhelming in that regard.
specs should ideally be the most brainless and spammable set, and without adequate support keldeo as a whole seems a bit bleh :/ at least imo.
scarf is better and worse bc its way weaker and so even harder to punish switchins, but its a better check vs more play styles i guess.
also amoonguss hurts viability a lot
Band/scarf Krook seems like the best partner to specs, aside from like sand + mega aero for a pseudo 2mon Ttar.
 
I don't think that Keldeo is underwhelming, I just think that people forgot how dangerous it is. Keldeo is checked by lots of Pokémon Pokémon (Primarina, Azumarill, Latias, Celebi, Slowbro, Slowking), but a Pokémon can check other Pokémon too. Keldeo has a really, really solid defensive typing, checking stupidly powerful attackers like Bisharp, Scizor, Krookodile, and others, like Water-types that are CM baits. Keldeo can run lots of sets too, I'll just name some of them:
  • Choice Scarf
  • Choice Specs
  • SubCM
  • Calm Mind + Waterium Z + Icy Wind
  • Calm Mind + Normalium Z (Hyper Beam)
  • Z-Rain Dance
  • TauntCM
  • Taunt + 3 Attacks
  • RestTalk
All these sets are viable, perfectly viable, to be fair. The three most common sets are by far the Choice and SubCM, and they're already dangerous enough. Calm Mind sets with Z-Stones are amazing, not only because they are actually really hard to switch-in, but because bluffing with them is extremely easy. Z-Rain Dance is also a nice tool, since it allows Keldeo sweep the late game, outspeeding most Scarfers like Mienshao and super fast shit, like Mega Aero. Taunt sets are also surprisingly good, as they don't let Keldeo's checks work as well as they wanted to, like Mantine (TauntCM is actually a really good stallbreaker). Lastly, RestTalk allows Keldeo check what it checks, but with more reliability.

OK, after talking about Keldeo's sets, take a good look at your teams on Pokémon Showdown, and please, what team can handle all these sets? I mean, of course you can't cover all the sets, I'm just trying to show you how Keldeo is splashable and how it's dangerous. Keldeo is a beast when paired with Pokémon that provide Spikes and Pursuit support, since most of its checks have to be at full health to take its hits or are extremely vulnerable to Pursuit (cough Latias cough). I know why people are sleeping on it though; its checks are basically in every sort of team, however they're usually not checking only Keldeo, so they're overloaded by the rest of the dangerous attackers. Keldeo is not underwhelming, people are just sleeping on it.
Jellicent checks most of those sets, barring the random CM HP Grass/Electric (Sub is better most of the time though)
 

ehT

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CM 3 attacks is actually a pretty cool set, and in some situations does better than Sub vs fat, since you can bop a would-be check with one of Icy Wind, HP Elec, or HP Bug.
 

sam-testings

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Jellicent checks most of those sets, barring the random CM HP Grass/Electric (Sub is better most of the time though)
Jellicent as a pokemon does not have a very good defensive typing right now. Even if it checks a good amount of Keldeo sets, its really gets bopped by a good amount of the metagame, making it not that good of a check to Keldeo. Also as mentioned above, Keldeo is going to start running HP Electric more often because of Mantine dropping. Additionally, I really do not think that Keldeo is that underwhelming. It is pretty much always annoying to switch into, risking burns on things like Azumarill or any mon really is annoying, and you can make the coverage really specific to the team. Too often I see people carry HP Grass when they have like two other grass types on the team and similar stuff. It is important to remember to make your set fit for your team and to not just c/p.

What are peoples thoughts on Clefable? I know some people are using it on Stall which I disagree with due to Scizor and Bisharps existence in UU, but most seem to want to use it as a set up sweeper with Calm Mind. I have seen LO CM discussed as a Stall Breaker due to its insane output of damage, and it obviously can run coverage fit to the team. Clefable is going to be a pretty cool mon to play around with, and possibly even ban worthy.
 

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If Keldeo becomes OU by usage, at least it saves us the time and energy to discuss it and it's counters.
Don't think about it sorry :

High Ladd : 55 | Keldeo | 2.54583% | 25827 | 1.680% | 18716 | 1.629%
Highest Ladd : | 62 | Keldeo | 2.22108% | 25827 | 1.680% | 18716 | 1.629% |

Clefable is really, really, really good. Pure Fairy type is great and his Movepool is ridiculous.
You can run so many options and sets on this thing :

• Support (Koff, T-wave, Stealth Rock..)
• Unaware or Magic Guard CM (can also run coverage like Psychic / Stored Power or Flamethrower / Fire Blast).
• Cleric / Wish (Unaware one can check both NP & Specs Thundurus which is kinda cool).

And yeah oh my god Stall with Clefable = hell (please guys stop playing Stall, it's not enjoyable U_U)

Talking about Stall, I think this thing is top 1 Wallbreaker Stall in the entire tier :


Haxorus @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab

He can pass throught Clefable (don't care about Unaware with Mold Breaker) :

• 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 184-218 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 184-218 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And it's the same for the Pokémon played in Stall..

• +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 448-528 (113.7 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO

• +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 466-549 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
• +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 466-549 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

• +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 552-651 (128 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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