SM UU Viability Ranking Thread Mk. II

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Hydreigon from A- to A rank Disagree - I've been using Hydreigon a lot and all I have to say is, it's a tough mon to use lol. First of all, if a mon is going to be at a high rank, it should be fairly moderate to use not hard to use. With Choiced Hydreigon it takes a lot of guessing and it works best late game but, it's pretty much outclassed by other relevant threats in that department. Hydreigon is definitely a threat that can do a lot but, it needs a lot of team support to really make use of it. Also, it doesn't help that you can't spam it's STABs due to so many fighting, fairy, and steel type mons roaming around like togekiss, clefable, scizor, keldeo, etc. Yes, it has the possibility of 2HKO'ing them but its not that easy. I have replays to prove it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-287970 - In this replay from UUPL with poek vs lcannss, right from the beginning Hydreigon on lcannss side has a tough time getting or just breaking anything. I feel like poek was the smarter player in this game as he knew to play Hydreigon later as a choiced Hydreigon has a tough time early game as people are bound to have resists/immunity to both of it's STABs and coverage. Poek's clearly handles Hydreigon better but, his team handles a lot of the meta not just Hydreigon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-582870410 - Tough match for me as I have to play Hydreigon really well throughout the whole match with Clefable sitting in the back. And although Hydreigon can 2HKO almost the whole tier, at turn 3-4 I knew that the other guy wasn't going to stay in with Clefable; this means a lot as Hydreigon can put in on a lot of work with specs (scarf included) but, many mons can just come on in on the coverage and some mons can just heal up later on. So it took heavy predictions on my part to get Hydreigon to do work even early game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-583500353 - Another match of mine with Hydreigon, puts in a lot of work defensively and offensively throughout most of the match.
Terrakion from A to A- rank Agree - Terrakion is a tough mon to use and it's hard to set up with. It's a great mon with choice band but, it's really hard to get off when it comes to sweeping. It's choice scarf is great late game but oftentimes you need it early to mid-game and it lacks the power sometimes to stop certain mons from doing whatever.There are better fighting types and rock types in this tier like Mega Aerodactyl, Conkeldurr, Keldeo, Cobalion, and Infernape. Mega Aero has better coverage, Conkeldurr has more power and priority, Keldeo is a better choice scarf user, Infernape is a better band user that isn't weak to so much priority attacks, and Cobalion is a better set up sweeper. People have said a lot about this already so, I think it'll be obvious in the replays.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-582804020 - I fail to put in work with Terrakion but I still manage to set up and put in work with it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-277759 - In this replay from UUPL welliou can't manage to do much with Terrakion and fails to do much with it even at +2.
Keldeo from A+ to A rank Disagree - Lord Wallace pretty much said everything that had to be said lol and thanks to Amane Misa for providing these replays to showcase Keldeo, Seriously though, Keldeo has great natural bulk with two great STABs that allow it to put in a lot of work against most of the tier. Not to mention, you have to be careful about how you switch-in to it as each set is extremely dangerous. It's honestly the second best offensive pivot in the tier.
Amane Misa's replays of Keldeo
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-582113821 - Right at team preview Keldeo pretty much gets rid of most of the opposing team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-582110306 - Keldeo does a lot of work here too with Raikou and Primarina being able to be worn down throughout the game. Primarina gets worn down by toxic while Hippo beats Raikou while Keldeo tears the team apart throughout the whole game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-582093747 - Hazard War with Keldeo taking it at the end if Bisharp goes down.
Just as a side note by the way, if Keldeo really does move up this tier shift and if Clefable gets banned (it's OP) then I would agree to Hydreigon moving to A rank as it does have ways to wear down it's checks that lack reliable recovery.
 

Amane Misa

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(regular) C → Unranked
I will make this one short. Aerodactyl's only niche in the metagame is as a suicide lead for Hyper Offense. Although Aerodactyl boasts higher speed than Azelf, it is completely outclassed by it. Over Aerodactyl, Azelf has better offensive stats (at both sides of the spectrum), access to Explosion, which is way better than Double-Edge, and wider movepool (Knock Off, Skill Swap and Magic Coat for faster Taunt users).

B- → B
It is a shame that such a great Pokémon is only B-. Jellicent is arguably the best Keldeo counter in UU, is a spinblocker that beats all the Rapid Spin users (barring LO TBolt Starmie and the rare Dhelmise). Not only does it counter Keldeo but it also counters Scizor, Mega Aerodactyl, non-Bloom Doom Volcanion, Cobalion, Blissey and Clefable. It can also check Dark types with Colbur Berry + Will-O-Wisp. While it may be a bit passive, it has acces to Taunt, Hex and Scald so its passivity isn't that much of a problem. Basically, Jellicent is a wall, spinblocker and stallbreaker in one slot. Replays:
  1. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-582419450 - walls everything
  2. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-582430965 - stallbreaker

A+ → A
Lord Wallace and tmacbalanced more or less summed it up in their posts, respectively, but I would like to add my own thoughts on it anyway. Keldeo's typing, bulk, power and speed make it a great Pokémon in UU and certainly entitled to be A+. I will use the same replays tmacbalanced used but I will add my own thoughts on them.
  1. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-582113821 - you can clearly see here that five out of six of my opponent's Pokémon are heavily pressured by Keldeo. Latias, one of the best offensive checks to Keldeo, was handled by my pursuit trapper. From thereon, Keldeo massacred my opponent's team.
  2. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-582110306 - Again, after Keldeo's check died (in that case it was Primairna), my opponent didn't have a good switch-in to Keldeo.
 
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C- → B-
Darmanitan is much better than all the situational mons sitting on the C ranks, and definitely on par with its peers mienshao and entei in B-. Scarf Darm is a massive threat to any team lacking a phys def water type due to sheer force essentially giving it a life orb boost at no cost while being able to outspeed the entire unboosted meta. Being able to 2hko stuff like hippowdon after rocks means that unlike other scarf users, darm can put in a lot of work vs fatter teams since switch-ins are extremely limited and are all dealt with by the same teammates. Flare Blitz is very spammable in a tier where the only half decent fire immunity is relatively rare and weak to pursuit and uturn helps keep momentum and wear stuff like pert and cune down, and despite the crippling rock weakness, fire type gives it some decent defensive utility vs scizor and clefable.
 

Hilomilo

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This thread hasn't been all too active as of late, so I'd like to spice things up some in talking about a few Pokemon that I very well think could rise, since I don't really think there's anything that should drop that hasn't already been covered pretty nicely.

Infernape up to A-: I brought this one up in my last post, but would like to shed some light on it again since I really want to stress how much this thing deserves to rise. Infernape offers so much offensive versatility between its many viable sets, and while not necessarily a lot has changed for it recently, this nom more so just has to do with said offensive versatility making it better than the mons it's currently ranked with (particularly Volcanion). Infernape's mixed attacking and Choice Scarf sets are both so easy to fit on teams and perform so consistently, while it also has so much potential as a late-game cleaner with either Nasty Plot or Swords Dance (CB is also good for quickly wearing down a lot of its switch-ins with U-turn). The ability to take on mons like Amoongus, Celebi, and Klefki as a Choice Scarf user is especially nice considering that those are mons other scarfed fighters tend to struggle with, and Nasty Plot also appreciates the fact that it really doesn't require much support outside of removing faster Psychic-types in order to sweep late-game. Z-moves have also done wonders for this thing, as with an Electrium-Z, SD has extremely limited counterplay that ultimately just boils down to either really bulky and passive Pokemon like Hippowdon, or faster, frailer Pokemon like Latias and Starmie. Infernape is capable of providing for offensive teams in more ways than any other Pokemon in the tier, and can cost your team a Pokemon just by being a set you didn't think it was, which is icing on the cake in terms of why I think this guy deserves placement in A-.

Suicune up to B+: The consensus regarding keeping Suicune in B, at least from what we were told, is that it doesn't compare to a similar Pokemon in Slowbro in terms of viability, which I honestly find to be false. Suicune's main perks over Slowbro lie in its pure Water-typing, which allows it to check some huge metagame threats much more reliably. While the neutrality to Secret Sword kind of sucks, the ability to function as a check to Scizor, Bisharp, Mega Sharpedo, and Krookodile is honestly huge, as with Slowbro you have to restrict teambuilding a bit in supplying answers to these threats so not to compromise Bro's defensive capabilities. Suicune also excels in that its SubCalm Mind set really thrives right now, as the only sturdy answers are Grass- and Electric-types, which are generally uncommon within the current metagame (or even 1v1'd in Amoonguss's case). Overall, Suicune packs plenty of perks over its competition in Slowbro, especially in such a Bug- and Dark-type heavy metagame that I fully believe it warrants rising, especially considering its a lot more consistent than some of what resides with it in B.

Venomoth up to B+: I'm aware of the fact that Venomoth just shot up from C- rank recently, but it's honestly thriving in this current metagame. The presence of Pokemon it forces out, like Clefable, Togekiss, Primarina, and Choice-locked Keldeo allows it to easily nab a setup opportunity, use Sleep Powder on whatever switches in, and then acquire yet another Quiver Dance boost with general ease. Upon easily reaching +2, it has free reign over almost the entire opposing team due to its extremely limited counterplay, and a lot of its paper checks either crumble to a +2 Savage Spinout or, if they 4x resist Bug Buzz, are generally pretty easy to wear down (Klefki takes a chunk from SS while Cobalion can even be OHKOed). Overall, Venomoth really thrives in that right now, it doesn't have much reliable counterplay at all, and is easily among the tier's best late-game cleaners, which should be represented with a rise to B+.

Slowking and Jellicent up to B: Here we have two bulky Water-types that I feel are currently misrepresented in their rank. Slowking's Assault Vest set has really emerged lately as a super consistent check to a lot of huge special threats, most notably Latias, which can't even OHKO with a +1 Gigavolt Havoc, as well as Keldeo, Primarina, Starmie, Volcanion, and if it's healthy, even Gengar. The sheer amount of heavily threatening special attackers that Slowking can alone keep in check is amazing, especially considering that for a defensive Pokemon it packs a fair offensive presence. As for Jellicent, I feel like most everything was covered quite nicely by Amane Misa. Jellicent retains a good amount of mixed bulk, which allows it to function as a really nice check to physical and special threats alike, notably checking Mega Aeodactyl, some Latias variants, Cobalion, Keldeo, Terrakion, and pretty much any defensive Stealth Rock setter (Hippo, Swampert, etc.). Both of these two have just been such consistent defensive Pokemon lately that keeping them as low as B- would honestly be a shame.

Tsareena up to B-: I've brought this one up before, and was really glad to see that there was recently a nomination for a rise that wasn't by me lol. Tsareena compresses roles really nicely in comparison to a lot of support-based Pokemon that also are in C+ (Shuckle and Forretress can tend to get overwhelmed in trying to accomplish everything they want to), particularly due to its access to reliable recovery. Overall, the combined utility of hazard removal, pivoting, and potentially acting as a cleric is beyond valuable, especially considering that Tsareena can limit switch-ins with Trop Kick and take advantage of its resistances to the tier's common Ground- and Water-type attacks. Krookodile's also a really prevalent Pokemon that it excels at checking, which lately should only give people more incentive to use Tsareena, who is really just a step ahead of most other Pokemon currently in C+.

Quagsire up to C+/B-: I promise that this will be my last one lol. This has been brought up quite a bit throughout the history of the metagame, and I'm honestly a little perplexed as to why we haven't given Quagsire a little love. It's super important to a lot of stall-oriented builds in that it can consistently check huge threats to stall in Terrakion, SD Bisharp, Bruxish, and Scizor. It also possesses really good synergy with a lot of Pokemon seen on the builds it fits best on, particularly Clefable, and just provides for the archetype its best on so much more than a lot of its C-ranked brethren, such as Heracross, Whimsicott, and Aerodactyl.

If you made it through this whole post, thanks so much for reading! I hope you enjoyed, let me know what you guys think. :)
 
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This thread hasn't been all too active as of late, so I'd like to spice things up some in talking about a few Pokemon that I very well think could rise, since I don't really think there's anything that should drop that hasn't already been covered pretty nicely.

Infernape up to A-: I brought this one up in my last post, but would like to shed some light on it again since I really want to stress how much this thing deserves to rise. Infernape offers so much offensive versatility between its many viable sets, and while not necessarily a lot has changed for it recently, this nom more so just has to do with said offensive versatility making it better than the mons it's currently ranked with (particularly Volcanion). Infernape's mixed attacking and Choice Scarf sets are both so easy to fit on teams and perform so consistently, while it also has so much potential as a late-game cleaner with either Nasty Plot or Swords Dance (CB is also good for quickly wearing down a lot of its switch-ins with U-turn). The ability to take on mons like Amoongus, Celebi, and Klefki as a Choice Scarf user is especially nice considering that those are mons other scarfed fighters tend to struggle with, and Nasty Plot also appreciates the fact that it really doesn't require much support outside of removing faster Psychic-types in order to sweep late-game. Z-moves have also done wonders for this thing, as with an Electrium-Z, SD has extremely limited counterplay that ultimately just boils down to either really bulky and passive Pokemon like Hippowdon, or faster, frailer Pokemon like Latias and Starmie. Infernape is capable of providing for offensive teams in more ways than any other Pokemon in the tier, and can cost your team a Pokemon just by being a set you didn't think it was, which is icing on the cake in terms of why I think this guy deserves placement in A-.

Suicune up to B+: The consensus regarding keeping Suicune in B, at least from what we were told, is that it doesn't compare to a similar Pokemon in Slowbro in terms of viability, which I honestly find to be false. Suicune's main perks over Slowbro lie in its pure Water-typing, which allows it to check some huge metagame threats much more reliably. While the neutrality to Secret Sword kind of sucks, the ability to function as a check to Scizor, Bisharp, Mega Sharpedo, and Krookodile is honestly huge, as with Slowbro you have to restrict teambuilding a bit in supplying answers to these threats so not to compromise Bro's defensive capabilities. Suicune also excels in that its SubCalm Mind set really thrives right now, as the only sturdy answers are Grass- and Electric-types, which are generally uncommon within the current metagame (or even 1v1'd in Amoonguss's case). Overall, Suicune packs plenty of perks over its competition in Slowbro, especially in such a Bug- and Dark-type heavy metagame that I fully believe it warrants rising, especially considering its a lot more consistent than some of what resides with it in B.

Venomoth up to B+: I'm aware of the fact that Venomoth just shot up from C- rank recently, but it's honestly thriving in this current metagame. The presence of Pokemon it forces out, like Clefable, Togekiss, Primarina, and Choice-locked Keldeo allows it to easily nab a setup opportunity, use Sleep Powder on whatever switches in, and then acquire yet another Quiver Dance boost with general ease. Upon easily reaching +2, it has free reign over almost the entire opposing team due to its extremely limited counterplay, and a lot of its paper checks either crumble to a +2 Savage Spinout or, if they 4x resist Bug Buzz, are generally pretty easy to wear down (Klefki takes a chunk from SS while Cobalion can even be OHKOed). Overall, Venomoth really thrives in that right now, it doesn't have much reliable counterplay at all, and is easily among the tier's best late-game cleaners, which should be represented with a rise to B+.

Slowking and Jellicent up to B: Here we have two bulky Water-types that I feel are currently misrepresented in their rank. Slowking's Assault Vest set has really emerged lately as a super consistent check to a lot of huge special threats, most notably Latias, which can't even OHKO with a +1 Gigavolt Havoc, as well as Keldeo, Primarina, Starmie, Volcanion, and if it's healthy, even Gengar. The sheer amount of heavily threatening special attackers that Slowking can alone keep in check is amazing, especially considering that for a defensive Pokemon it packs a fair offensive presence. As for Jellicent, I feel like most everything was covered quite nicely by Amane Misa. Jellicent retains a good amount of mixed bulk, which allows it to function as a really nice check to physical and special threats alike, notably checking Mega Aeodactyl, some Latias variants, Cobalion, Keldeo, Terrakion, and pretty much any defensive Stealth Rock setter (Hippo, Swampert, etc.). Both of these two have just been such consistent defensive Pokemon lately that keeping them as low as B- would honestly be a shame.

Tsareena up to B-: I've brought this one up before, and was really glad to see that there was recently a nomination for a rise that wasn't by me lol. Tsareena compresses roles really nicely in comparison to a lot of support-based Pokemon that also are in C+ (Shuckle and Forretress can tend to get overwhelmed in trying to accomplish everything they want to), particularly due to its access to reliable recovery. Overall, the combined utility of hazard removal, pivoting, and potentially acting as a cleric is beyond valuable, especially considering that Tsareena can limit switch-ins with Trop Kick and take advantage of its resistances to the tier's common Ground- and Water-type attacks. Krookodile's also a really prevalent Pokemon that it excels at checking, which lately should only give people more incentive to use Tsareena, who is really just a step ahead of most other Pokemon currently in C+.

Quagsire up to C+/B-: I promise that this will be my last one lol. This has been brought up quite a bit throughout the history of the metagame, and I'm honestly a little perplexed as to why we haven't given Quagsire a little love. It's super important to a lot of stall-oriented builds in that it can consistently check huge threats to stall in Terrakion, SD Bisharp, Bruxish, and Scizor. It also possesses really good synergy with a lot of Pokemon seen on the builds it fits best on, particularly Clefable, and just provides for the archetype its best on so much more than a lot of its C-ranked brethren, such as Heracross, Whimsicott, and Aerodactyl.

If you made it through this whole post, thanks so much for reading! I hope you enjoyed, let me know what you guys think. :)
I admire the effort you have gone through with this post, but I must disagree with some of these selections.

Moving Suicune to the same level as Volcanion, Slowbro and Tentacruel seems to be a bit of an oversight. While Suicune does have a nice niche, offensively it is outclassed by other bulky water types such as Primarina. With this lack of offensive presence, it is often an invitation for Pokemon such as Raikou to switch-in and gain a free sub. Defensively, the lack of reliable recovery makes Suicune vulnerable to chip damage and unable to check threats after a while. Furthermore, once it gets poisoned, Suicune's days are numbered. The popular Crocune (Rest + Sleep Talk + CM) is also walled completely by Water Absorb Pokemon such as Volcanion, who can abuse Suicune for a free switch-in to fire off a Specs Energy Ball / Steam Eruption on the switch.

Claiming Venomoth as one of the tiers strongest lategame sweepers is also a bit optimistic when it is vulnerable to almost every priority move in the game. Scizor can easily OHKO it with Bullet Punch and Bisharp/Absol with Sucker Punch. With a weakness to Stealth Rock and terrible defenses, it is heavy reliant on teammates providing it with a free switch-in. Furthermore, it is dependent on a 75% accuracy move to set up effectively. It's offenses are also lackluster and Blissey can wall it indefinitely and 2HKO it with seismic toss after SR. I have yet to encounter or lose to a venomoth sweep in 1500+.

Sorry to be blunt. It is great that you talk a lot about each Pokemon's advantages, but it is also imperative that you should recognise their weaknesses and shortcomings as well. I do however, agree that Jellicent is underrated.
 
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I admire the effort you have gone through with this post, but I must disagree with some of these selections.

Moving Suicune to the same level as Volcanion, Slowbro and Tentacruel seems to be a bit of an oversight. While Suicune does have a nice niche, offensively it is outclassed by other bulky water types such as Primarina. With this lack of offensive presence, it is often an invitation for Pokemon such as Raikou to switch-in and gain a free sub. Defensively, the lack of reliable recovery makes Suicune vulnerable to chip damage and unable to check threats after a while. Furthermore, once it gets poisoned, Suicune's days are numbered. The popular Crocune (Rest + Sleep Talk + CM) is also walled completely by Water Absorb Pokemon such as Volcanion, who can abuse Suicune for a free switch-in to fire off a Specs Energy Ball / Steam Eruption on the switch.

Claiming Venomoth as one of the tiers strongest lategame sweepers is also a bit optimistic when it is vulnerable to almost every priority move in the game. Scizor can easily OHKO it with Bullet Punch and Bisharp/Absol with Sucker Punch. With a weakness to Stealth Rock and terrible defenses, it is heavy reliant on teammates providing it with a free switch-in. Furthermore, it is dependent on a 75% accuracy move to set up effectively. It's offenses are also lackluster and Blissey can wall it indefinitely and 2HKO it with seismic toss after SR. I have yet to encounter or lose to a venomoth sweep in 1500+.

Sorry to be blunt. I do however, agree that Jellicent is underrated.
I mean, Primarina and Suicune kind of do completely different things, so saying Suicune is outclassed is completely untrue, Primarina is a wallbreaker, and Suicune is a sweeper. Primarina can't use Calm Mind, it's much more frail on the physical side, and its slower, all of which are valuable traits Suicune brings to the table. Suicune certainly has things over Slowbro, such as higher speed and a better typing, allowing it to set up on things Slowbro cannot like Scizor. You bring up Suicune's lack reliable recovery, but Tentacruel has that exact same issue, and also can't really check any physical attackers. Volcanion is one of the better B+ Pokémon, sure, but I don't think Suicune is that far behind. Of course Suicune does have some of the issues you brought, but they are honestly not large enough to keep in in B imo. Also, Volcanion is a terrible water check, it's incredibly weak to hazards, not to mention that Latias is an excellent team mate, and every time it's forced out Volcanion has to risk taking more hazard damage. Also, why are judging based on Crocune? Vincune, the set Hilomilo mentioned, is the best set, and it's more of a sweeper than a wall, so you're not using it to check threats, you're using it to sweep once its counters are gone. Hilomilo already did a good job showing why it's good, and you didn't really refute any of his points at all.

Venomoth's usage and winrate in UUPL (it almost has a ninety percent win rate, and it was brought nine times, pretty good if you ask me), speaks for itself. Scizor' BP sucks for it, sure, but Bisharp risks getting put to sleep, and neither it or Absol can switch in at all, so they have to come in after something dies. Beyond those three, Conk is probably the best priority user, and while Mach Punch still stings, the fact that unlike Sharpedo or Birsarp it doesn't die to Mach Punch is certainly a valuable trait. Stealth Rock weakness honestly doesn't matter that much when you're bringing Venomoth in to sweep or break holes, it's not supposed to stick around for a long time. Blissey walls pretty much every Special Attacker besides Keldeo and Latias, but hey let's just drop Primarina and Raikou down because clearly Blissey stops them from being good. It's not like Venomoth has good synergy with Krookodile or something. You may have not been swept by Venomoth, although to be fair it is uncommon on ladder to begin with, so it's a rather small sample size, but the fact that it performs well at a high level means a lot more than its usage on the ladder.

Also, for the reasons Hilomilo outlined, I agree with Infernape rising, it's pretty good.
 
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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
Regarding Venomoth, I wouldn't put much weight in the fact it gets infrequent high ladder usage. Since generation five, it has inexplicably been underrated by the ladder and often not even UU. I'm pretty sure it was even banned from UU at one point despite not being in UU by usage at the time of the ban (possibly this was due to quiver pass though which is now banned, can't really remember).

This is definitely a case I would consider competitive games outside of the ladder to bolster arguments for and against viability.
 

Adaam

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to B-. This might be a bit early but seeing this in C-, where garbage like Torkoal resides, is not right. The obvious reason to rise it is due to it's synergy with Mega Beedrill, and in terms of other new drops, it provides an offensive check to Xurkitree (outspeeds and KOs with Specs Leaf Storm) and Mega Swampert while still fulfilling the same roles before in abusing bulky Grounds and Waters that no other Electric can. Anything that can take both Specs Leaf Storm/Volt Switch is killed by Mega Beedrill (Dragons, Blissey, general fat stuff like Sylveon) or crippled by Trick.

What sucks for it, though, is being an Electric that doesn't resist Flying, pretty bad speed tier (hey, at least you outspeed Nidoking) and the always annoying mind-games that VoltTurn brings against Ground types. Just flip a coin and then claim you lost because your opponent is bad for hard switching Swampert into a Volt Switch.
 
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I know we cannot rank these mons yet, but can we rank mons that's viability are affected by them?
All I know is that Buzzwole, due to its typing and moves, heavily pressure a lot of Pokémon in the A rankings and they have no easy way of dealing with Buzzwole. For instance, Krookodile's STABs can't do crap to Buzzwole and both of Buzzwole's STABs OHKO or 2HKO Krookodile. Primarina is slower than Buzzwole and it dies to a Poison Jab, and Cobalion can't easily take it without setting up.
 

ehT

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Changes:
Initial placements:


A Rank
A+:

Buzzwole

Great offensive and defensive typing, workable coverage options, and absurd bulk make Buzzwole a top tier physical tank with a variety of viable sets that can fit on a wide variety of teams. All these things together allow it to punish practically any physical threat it wants that can't hit it super effectively, as well as a unique number of threats it can naturally wall regardless of its set, most notably Krookodile, Cobalion, and Conkeldurr. That said, its mediocre Speed and horrible Special Defense hold it back from being unstoppable, as a number of special attackers can abuse it with relative consistency.

Swampert (Mega)

Fantastic for the same reasons it was fantastic in ORAS. The Stealth Rock tank set has proven a staple on bulky offence teams, and the Rain Dance set is still an extremely potent sweeper, although weather wars and the rise of sun thanks to M-Houndoom rain on its parade. Fully defensive sets, however, aren't as useful as before, due to most Fire-types now having ways to get around it, the decline of Entei, and being bait for bulky setup Pokemon if it lacks Roar.
A:

Beedrill (Mega)

The king of VolTurn received a lot of buffs this gen, most notably instant 145 Speed and the ability to run a coverage or utility move over Protect. It suffers from the same flaws as ORAS, namely being checkmated by Mega Aerodactyl and struggling versus most moderately bulky things, but this is easily made up for by many common staples on VolTurn, such as Scizor, Kyurem, Hydreigon, and Infernape.

Pidgeot (Mega)

Another terrifying revenge killer and wallbreaker that benefitted greatly from the buff to Mega Evolution. The lack of Flying resists and reliable special walls alongisde Pidgeot's Speed tier and access to U-turn make it immensely annoying to slower teams, even despite the nerf to confusion. However, the presence of offensive checks like Raikou and Pidgeot's old arch nemesis Mega Aerodactyl gives Pidgeot a good amount of offensive counterplay, and certain special walls like Empoleon and Snorlax can take it on much more reliably than before.

Xurkitree

Without a doubt one of the most devastating wallbreakers this tier has ever seen. Having a multitude of Z-moves and coverage moves to choose from means the tier is sorely lacking in defensive counterplay, and can singlehandedly overwhelm bulkier teams with relative ease. However, its frailty and mediocre Speed mean that even bulky teams can overwhelm it with offensive pressure, as it loses to every viable Choice Scarf user and Mega Aerodactyl.

A-:

Mamoswine

Does the same thing it did in ORAS, and that is 2HKO the entire tier. The lack of defensive utility makes it tough to bring in, and its subpar Speed tier makes it far from impossible to pressure, especially with the addition of a hard check in Buzzwole, meaning that its damage output is relatively easy to mitigate.

Houndoom (Mega)

As well as benefitting from the Mega buff, Mega Houndoom received another massive boon this gen compared to ORAS: Drought. Being able to viably abuse Solar Power makes Mega Houndoom ridiculously powerful, giving it the power to 2HKO or OHKO practically anything slower than it, even achieving the absurd feat of OHKOing Blissey at +2 in the sun. It can also perform quite well outside of sun, as its Speed tier and typing allow it to naturally threaten a good portion of the tier, and the meta is quite a bit slower than when Houndoom was last in the tier.

B Rank

B+:

Steelix (Mega)

A super neat tank that provides a lot of unique role compression for balance, bulky offence, and stall teams. Being a Steel-type that can stand up to Electric-types is extremely useful, allowing it to form potent cores with the likes of Buzzwole, Alolan Muk, Alomomola, and Sylveon.

Alolan Muk

Another great tank that gives extremely helpful support with Knock Off and Pursuit coming from something so bulky, giving it synergy with a number of bulky offensive threats, like Scizor, Volcanion, and Mega Blastoise. A wide variety of teams appreciate a bulky Pursuit user like Muk, as well, from VolTurn to balance to hard stall.
B:

Sceptile (Mega)

Far more underwhelming than anticipated. Being a fast special Dragon-type means that it wants to reliably revenge kill Latias, but only having Dragon Pulse for Dragon STAB means that it can't. Being slower than Mega Aerodactyl also means that it can't act as Speed control on its own, and its frailty and 4x weakness to Ice means you won't get the defensive utility you'll generally want out of your Grass-type.

D Rank
Audino (Mega)
Pelipper


New rankings:


A → A

For the same reasons it rose before. See previous discussions for that. Despite gaining both stiff competition and a full-on counter in Buzzwole, Conkeldurr still has a number of things over it, namely its much higher power, a reliable Fighting STAB, and access to coverage options like boosted Facade and Knock Off.

C+ → C

On top of being generally outshone as a bulky Pyschic-type, Cresselia generally doesn't make up for its extreme passivity due to its lack of distinct support options. Calm Mind sets are entirely outclassed by Slowbro and Reuniclus, Lunar Dance sets are generally outperformed by Latias, and even Trick Room setting sets are just a momentum sink.

C- → C

This is as high as Darmanitan is going. The lack of physical Fire resists in this meta really does show, as Darmanitan can be a menace to builds that rely on the likes of Latias, Primarina, Mega Aerodactyl, etc as their Fire resist. That said, other viable Fire-types have far, far more to offer despite generally being weaker. It is extremely strong, but the power is almost never worth the secondary STAB's, defensive ability, priority, etc provided by the likes of Infernape, Mega Houndoom, Volcanion, and Entei.

C- → Unranked

Despite losing competition in Smeargle as a Sticky Web user, Shuckle is simply better due to its ability to set both Sticky Web and Stealth Rock, as well as use other utility moves. It can indeed threaten most hazard removers with its STAB's, but there are more practical ways to do so on Sticky Web teams that don't involve risking your setter and aren't so easy to pressure.

B → C+

Gastrodon was quite anti-meta initially, but its biggest niche over Swampert in its Water immunity is rendered moot due to most Water-types' ability to overwhelm or stall out Gastrodon relatively easily. Some unique options like Yawn and Curse due give it some situational usefulness, but they rarely make up for its simply inferior bulk.

C → Unranked

Despite being incredibly strong, Heracross doesn't really have a niche over our other Fighting-types. Terrakion and Cobalion are better Swords Dance users, Buzzwole invalidates any defensive utility it might try to offer with its typing, and its coverage options make it helplessly one dimensional.

B+ → B

Volt Switch and trapping Steel-types are both obviously helpful, but they come at the cost of a mediocre Speed tier and lack of defensive utility despite its typing, relegating it to more of am offensive support role, all while taking up a slot that another Electric-type could fill. Although it's found a new partner in Mega Beedrill, it stacks a weakness to Choice Scarf Krookodile and Mega Aerodactyl, making Rotom Mow more arguably more helpful in that regard.

C+ → C

There are simply more useful bulky Psychic-types. It's annoying to face, but its bulk is less than ideal in a supporting role, making Celebi generally a better choice as a bulky Stealth Rock setter, and Slowbro and Reuniclus are far more consistent as Calm Mind users due to their superior recovery and not being absolutely ruined by status.

B → B-

While Reuniclus did lose some competition as a Calm Mind user, it still has to justify being used over Slowbro, which possesses an arguably better typing, and makes much better use of Regenerator, and is far better at taking repeated punishment from a wider array of threats thanks to its higher bulk. The loss of Clefable was a double-edged sword for it, too, as losing one of the best Dark resists in the tier means Reuniclus lost one of its best teammates, and Dark-types are more free than before the to punish it freely.

C- → B-

Being an Electric-type that punishes Ground-types gives Rotom-Mow a very valuable niche over Raikou, although it must lose out on the ability to reliably hit Dragon-types in exchange. This gives it better synergy with Mega Beedrill and Scizor than Raikou on VolTurn teams, since they can offensively check a decent number of Dragon-types relatively well, and they both struggle with traditional stops to VolTurn.

B- → C

The general decline of Hippowdon in this meta also means the decline of sand offense. Furthermore, Hippowdon's passivity is something that offensive teams have a harder and harder time justifying, making Stoutland, even with all its power, a liability right alongside it.

B- → C

The return of Mega Pidgeot makes Swellow very tough to justify. Having a spammable Normal STAB and not being a Mega is neat for a revenge killer, but its higher Speed doesn't help it outspeed anything important besides opposing Pidgeot, and offering zero defensively.

D → B-

The loss of Clefable means Sylveon is the best defensive Fairy-type we have at the moment. It's not a direct analogue or 100% replacement, since Clefable was a far better Pokemon for a plethora of reasons, but it is no longer completely outclassed, and now has a viable niche. However, we're ranking it relatively low both as a precaution and because its flaws are far more pronounced in this meta than they were in ORAS. Most notably, being complete bait for Scizor, lacking any useful coverage moves, and having no instant recovery make it far easier to overwhelm than before.
 
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daunt vs

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→ B

It's easy to explain the rise Nintenales have drought and is a very nice support for venu and m-hooundoom and Z-fire set destroy all the walls in the tier.
Blissey:
Switch in Nast ploy and then you nast plot for second time and then:
+4 252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 760-895 (106.4 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO(bulkiest mon that doesn't resist fire)
Only lax and Pyukumuku avoid the 2HKO at +2.
 
→ B

It's easy to explain the rise Nintenales have drought and is a very nice support for venu and m-hooundoom and Z-fire set destroy all the walls in the tier.
Blissey:
Switch in Nast ploy and then you nast plot for second time and then:
+4 252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 760-895 (106.4 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO(bulkiest mon that doesn't resist fire)
Only lax and Pyukumuku avoid the 2HKO at +2.
Ninetales's role is more to provide support for Venusaur and Mega Houndoom, who fill the attacking niche better, especially the latter. Mega Houndoom can achieve similar results under sunlight with just a single turn of setup.

In order not to make this a one-liner, I'd indeed say B is a good minimum rank for Ninetales and Venusaur alike, as both are key ingredients to the Sun playstyle. Perhaps they could be higher, but I suggest B as a cautious minimum.
 
A → A

For the same reasons it rose before. See previous discussions for that. Despite gaining both stiff competition and a full-on counter in Buzzwole, Conkeldurr still has a number of things over it, namely its much higher power, better recovery (which happens to be a reliable Fighting STAB, which Buzzwole also lacks), and access to coverage options like boosted Facade and Knock Off.
I think the rest is alright, but I need to disagree with this. Buzzwole has better recovery with access to Roost and Leech Life. Buzzwole also has significantly higher physical bulk. With Buzzwole being so common on most teams, Conkeldurr will find it hard-pressed to break through teams as it did before. While Facade does 2HKO non-defensive Buzzwole, since Buzzwole possesses the speed advantage, it can easily roost off the damage while Conkeldurr succumbs to the Burn. I'm already starting to notice a sharp decrease in the number of Conkeldurr users with the advent of Buzzwole.
 

Kreme

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l honestly don't think both of the current discussion points really warrant any discussion considering the council's looking to ban one of either Houndoomite or Drought as a whole as far as I'm aware making the rises of both Ninetails and Venusaur mostly null no matter which takes place and said decision happening in the near future by the looks of things. Just my two cents.
 
People didn't mind discussing Keldeo and Gengar even though everything pointed out to them leaving the tier. Discussion should be encouraged specially because this thread isn't even getting many new posts these days.
 
People didn't mind discussing Keldeo and Gengar even though everything pointed out to them leaving the tier. Discussion should be encouraged specially because this thread isn't even getting many new posts these days.
That's because of how chaotic this tier was for awhile. People now have a decent grasp on the tier but, I have to agree with Kreme that I don't even feel like posting about the discussion points because it feels too obvious that drought or mega doom is going to get banned (probably drought).
I will say one thing though, if mega doom was going to be ranked, should of just been S rank because you should only run it on sun teams and Mega Houndoom is unstoppable. It can boost speed pretty easily with flame charge, it gets off nasty plot pretty easily too. It only needs 5 turns of sun to sweep. It wrecks every playstyle. It's becoming over centralizing. Mach punch isn't seen as much due to buzzwole being preferred over conkeldurr and infernape running scarf more often; mega doom resists scizor's bp and mamo's ice shard. Mega doom is clearly the best drop. All the reasons you need for why mega doom should be S can be found under the sun. (Did you get the joke?) Outside of sun though, I agree that Mega Houndoom is very decent.
 
People didn't mind discussing Keldeo and Gengar even though everything pointed out to them leaving the tier. Discussion should be encouraged specially because this thread isn't even getting many new posts these days.
While i can see you are coming from a good place i don't see the point in making posts when in a matter of a few days or a week a decision will be made and Ninetales/Venusaur will end up back in there original rank or just flat out removed making any posts towards it completely useless. I'm all for encouraging discussion however if its for the sake of a new post just forget it if that is going to be moot very soon.
 

ehT

:dog:
is a Contributor Alumnus
As long as Drought is in the state it is, Ninetales and Venusaur will be ranked accordingly. Keldeo and Gengar aren't in this tier, and are therefore not subject to discussion. Once action is taken on Drought, we will gladly return Ninetales and Venusaur to their appropriate ranks, but as of now Drought + Houndoom + Venusaur are currently legal, and as such are fair game. I wanted to start a discussion about Drought's presence in the tier, but with hindsight, putting them up as discussion points when (a) their place in the meta is very clear, and when (b) they likely won't be here long enough for that discussion to happen was misguided. Ninetales will be placed in A- and Venusaur will be placed in B. No discussion points for now. Go wild.
 
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A Cake Wearing A Hat

moist and crusty
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I'm gonna just make a nom here real quick in light of the drops.

C+ --> B-
Things seem to have gotten a bit better for good ol' Crobat recently. Its ability, Infiltrator, and its Poison/Flying typing give it a pretty significant niche as an offensive check and SSI to Buzzwole, even if it is behind a Substitute. Offensive Crobat sets like Flyinium Z/Sky Plate Offensive Utility bat and also Choice Band can OHKO all Buzzwole sets, even physically defensive ones. It's also a decent offensive check to SubSitrus Hawlucha and Conkeldurr. Crobat, especially Flyinium bat, can also safely deal with Mega Beedrill and can revenge Mega Pidgeot and Mega Sceptile. This, combined with the loss of Bisharp and Mew and the decrease in usage of Hippowdon help to greatly increase the viability of offensive Crobat sets.
 
I'm gonna just make a nom here real quick in light of the drops.

C+ --> B-
Things seem to have gotten a bit better for good ol' Crobat recently. Its ability, Infiltrator, and its Poison/Flying typing give it a pretty significant niche as an offensive check and SSI to Buzzwole, even if it is behind a Substitute. Offensive Crobat sets like Flyinium Z/Sky Plate Offensive Utility bat and also Choice Band can OHKO all Buzzwole sets, even physically defensive ones. It's also a decent offensive check to SubSitrus Hawlucha and Conkeldurr. Crobat, especially Flyinium bat, can also safely deal with Mega Beedrill and can revenge Mega Pidgeot and Mega Sceptile. This, combined with the loss of Bisharp and Mew and the decrease in usage of Hippowdon help to greatly increase the viability of offensive Crobat sets.
Adding on to this nom, Crobat loves that Mega Aero is no longer the best Mega for every team, meaning that even though it still has to worry about it, it can run wild against teams that don't have it. With Taunt it is an especially infuriating disruptor against most set-up sweepers and U-turn helps it pair with other mons in that archetype like Rotom-Mow and Beedrill. Cake explained everything pretty clearly in his post tho so adding my support for Crobat to B-.
 
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