Ladder STABmons (the old one)

[EV]

Beedrill will always be walled by Skarmory, most of the time by Heatran, Landorus, or Aegislash without Drill Run (or Knock Off for Lando/Aegi), and even stuff like Ferrothorn who takes neutral damage from Bug gives it trouble with King's Shield. Instead of trying to hit these checks, pack a scarf Tran to U-turn into. That frees up Beedrill's load so it can focus on being a fast, hard-hitting pivot. I also agree with Dina that it's too frail to set up. Plus as we've established its coverage sucks. Just bite the bullet and run Gunk Shot/Megahorn and pray it hits.

 

[skies]

Should Greninja be banned from the STABmons metagame? I've discussed this in the STABmons Council PM, but I'm posting my thoughts here as well. Firstly, Greninja's biggest selling point is a fast Pokemon with access to Sleep. On top of this, it has unresisted coverage and has STAB on each and every one of these moves. Originally, Greninja faced too stiff of a competition from Keldeo; however, now that Keldeo has been gone for a long time, it's risen to fill the exact same spot. What sets Greninja apart is its access to Dark Void. Greninja has many checks, for sure, but then they get crippled by Dark Void and are put out of commission. Greninja's Origin Pulse backed by excellent coverage all around make it insanely hard to check. With a high base Speed of 122, Greninja isn't going to be outsped by much. Even if Dark Void misses, it will typically have another chance to hit again because of this. I feel that Greninja is simply too good for the metagame, considering that it 2HKOes nearly all of the tier and puts the other half to Sleep via Dark Void. The combination of power, Speed, Dark Void, impeccable coverage, and all-around excellence make me believe that Greninja is not healthy for the tier.

Eevee General says that we typically wait three weeks to ban things in between each ban, but what do you think? Should we wait a little bit longer to ban Greninja, or should we get this broken ninja out of the game a bit quicker and bend the rules slightly? I bring this up because I believe it deserves a quickban right now, as it's not going to get less broken as time goes on. Another point of discussion!

Finally, should Kyurem-Black be included in this *potential* suspect test? I've heard some talk of people believing it's broken. While I personally do not stand on the "broken side," I'm curious to see what the rest of you guys think!

 

[Mr155551]

remember even though greninja is fast and packs dark void it still can't take hits very well so i say don't ban

 

[thesecondbest]

ninja is broken but fun, kyurem is just disgusting, so i guess ban both :/ Kyurem deserves to be banned in ou as well. idk, ou council needs to get their shit together

 

[Kingslayer2779]

ninja is broken but fun, kyurem is just disgusting, so i guess ban both :/ Kyurem deserves to be banned in ou as well. idk, ou council needs to get their shit together

kyu-b is far from broken in Ou, but this isn't the place. Greninja is absoutely broken in STABmons.

remember even though greninja is fast and packs dark void it still can't take hits very well so i say don't ban

So what if it doesn't take hits well? Mega Aero/Diggers/lopunny couldn't take hits that well either. They were still broken. Knock Off/Dark Void Ninja is too good. With Knock Off Chansey stands no chance. Dark Void sleeps non priority checks/counters. And sleep will too often either enable the Greninja user to beat the check/counter or switch to set up and win the match. Its way too good for the meta. And i would not mind double dipping on suspects. Kyu-B gets all the missing pieces that makr it Ou in standards: physical Ice Stab, priority, set up. Oh and it has zero reliable counters. Should have been quick banned long ago, i really don't see a reason for a suspect.

 

[canno]

Honestly I don't think Greninja needs to be banned. Greninja's main thing in OU that made it dangerous was that there was no switch in and that it shat all over Stall. While the first part is still true, you can say that about a lot of Pokemon in the meta, such as Lando-I, Thundy-I, and to an extend M-Sceptile (Seed Flare and Spore OP). Meanwhile I don't think it shits all over offense like it did in OU. Most offensive teams pack at least 1 form of priority, and usually multiple. If they dont they carry something really fast like M-Sceptile or scarfers. I'd have to play around with the Greninja meta more (I don't have much experience with and against Greninja) but theoretically I don't see what it does that, say, Darkrai or M-Sceptile dont.

However Kyu-B is something I'd be down to suspect. It's basically M-Gyarados only slightly better and it doesn't take up a Mega Slot. Hell the only thing that M-Gyara can do that Kyu-B doesn't just do better is Taunt DD due to its access to Taunt (thank god it gets it naturally). Not only is it M-Gyara without the Mega Stone, but it can also be a mixed or even full on special wall breaker. It's new access to Dragon Dance, Ice STAB AND priority, and a new way to wall break in the form of Freeze Dry make Kyu-B broken in my mind.

 

[Lcass4919]

the problem i have with mr ninja, is that it actually has so many more tools in its arsenal now, being able to put something to sleep is huge, it has a slightly more reliable water move to spam, knock off, a way to boost its spc attack, and even gaining access to some lesser noteworthy stuff like parting shot, crabhammer, and suckerpunch, what makes it scary, is that it is now just as threatening with physical attacks as it is with special attacks, and has a method of actually denting the #1 special wall chansey with its new move, knock off. alongside getting stab on EVERY move it uses. it has less relivant counters then it did before, and although it has numerous new checks, the fact it still lacks counters is pretty noteworthy. as far as it being broken though, idk, ive never had a problem with it really. its really really good...but as far as broken goes...theres some more noteworthy options out there.

 

[skies]

remember even though greninja is fast and packs dark void it still can't take hits very well so i say don't ban

It doesn't need to take hits... It's an offensive Pokemon, primarily on hyper offense teams, so why is it needing to take hits?

Honestly I don't think Greninja needs to be banned. Greninja's main thing in OU that made it dangerous was that there was no switch in and that it shat all over Stall. While the first part is still true, you can say that about a lot of Pokemon in the meta, such as Lando-I, Thundy-I, and to an extend M-Sceptile (Seed Flare and Spore OP). Meanwhile I don't think it shits all over offense like it did in OU. Most offensive teams pack at least 1 form of priority, and usually multiple. If they dont they carry something really fast like M-Sceptile or scarfers. I'd have to play around with the Greninja meta more (I don't have much experience with and against Greninja) but theoretically I don't see what it does that, say, Darkrai or M-Sceptile dont.

The difference, in my opinion, is Protean. Protean leaves Greninja with nearly no counters, and is also a part of the problem in OU. Greninja by itself is absolutely not broken, but Protean makes all the difference. I don't really understand why you're comparing it to Mega Sceptile o_o?? I mean, I guess they're fast and pack Spore, but Mega Sceptile is far easier to check. The thing is, Greninja isn't sweeping teams by itself. It's going to clean up teams late game, weaken them to the point of a sweep later on, or cripple a certain member beyond repair. Your team instantly benefits by having Greninja, and the other team is instantly at a disadvantage. You use priority as an example. The most popular priority user is arguably Kangaskhan, thanks to Extreme Speed. Extreme Speed does 56.1 - 66.3% to Greninja, so it can only revenge kill a tiny bit worn down Greninja. Let's take another, more powerful example. Azumarill's Choice Band Extreme Speed does 77.1 - 90.8%, enough to potentially KO after Stealth Rock and Life Orb recoil. These are just two examples of strong priority, for the sake of showing how it takes priority. Choice Scarf users are typically good ways to check Greninja, but this was the same case in OU and it got banned...

However Kyu-B is something I'd be down to suspect. It's basically M-Gyarados only slightly better and it doesn't take up a Mega Slot. Hell the only thing that M-Gyara can do that Kyu-B doesn't just do better is Taunt DD due to its access to Taunt (thank god it gets it naturally). Not only is it M-Gyara without the Mega Stone, but it can also be a mixed or even full on special wall breaker. It's new access to Dragon Dance, Ice STAB AND priority, and a new way to wall break in the form of Freeze Dry make Kyu-B broken in my mind.

+1

the problem i have with mr ninja, is that it actually has so many more tools in its arsenal now, being able to put something to sleep is huge, it has a slightly more reliable water move to spam, knock off, a way to boost its spc attack, and even gaining access to some lesser noteworthy stuff like parting shot, crabhammer, and suckerpunch, what makes it scary, is that it is now just as threatening with physical attacks as it is with special attacks, and has a method of actually denting the #1 special wall chansey with its new move, knock off. alongside getting stab on EVERY move it uses. it has less relivant counters then it did before, and although it has numerous new checks, the fact it still lacks counters is pretty noteworthy. as far as it being broken though, idk, ive never had a problem with it really. its really really good...but as far as broken goes...theres some more noteworthy options out there.

I can get behind this as well. Something I've been toying around with, but not so much, is Knock Off. Crippling counters, removing Eviolites, and being powerful in general is great. A set that I really like though is Dark Void + 3 Attacks, which is what I believe to be its best set. Some other interesting options are Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Parting Shot, Nasty Plot, and various coverage moves like Low Kick, Gunk Shot, etc. Yep!

 

[EV]

its really really good...but as far as broken goes...theres some more noteworthy options out there.

Like??? Don't leave us hanging like that.

What do people use to check and counter Greninja? I've been using Mega Gyarados to take on special sets. Here's the build I prefer, which is posted in the teambuilding shop as well:

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 92 SpD / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Waterfall
- Dragon Dance

It's not foolproof, though. Gunk Shot does a number to it and Low Kick will do a ton of damage. Nasty Plot sets can also overpower you and Taunt shuts you down completely. Plus, while asleep you're at the mercy of Sleep Talk. However, Greninja doesn't carry recovery (unless you're running my Lefties Dark Void Water Spout set), so the LO recoil is gonna wear Greninja down as you keep Resting off the damage.

Another mon with the right typing and ability to sponge most Ninjas is Mega Venusaur. Resists Water and the rare Fighting. Neutral to Ice, Dark, Fire, and Poison once you get to Thick Fat. The only other attack it fears is Extrasensory, which I have yet to see in STABmons. Dark Void can't be blocked unless you run some weird Sleep Talk set, so find something to fodder first.

Mega Sableye is notable for being immune to all status and carries quite a bit of bulk to sponge some attacks. Sadly, Origin Pulse comes in really close to a 2HKO (252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock) and you must invest all in special defense, something Sableye don't often do. Plus, what's Sableye going to do back in defense? Burn it? That puts a timer on it but doesn't stop it outright.

Then there's AV Slowking. "But Night Daze!" Yes, Dark STAB will do in Slowking, which cannot rebound the damage with Mirror Coat either. But after talking to unfixable about it, Dark isn't all that great on Greninja except to hit Slowking specifically and I don't think it's common enough to warrant that slot. Water and Ice already hit most S and A rank mons for SE or at least neutral damage and with Protean, Ice Beam > Night Daze in power. Sure, it could use Dark to hit Meloetta, but Origin Pulse already 2HKOs non-Specially Defensive sets (252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 161-191 (47.2 - 56%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO, 100% chance with Stealth Rock), and it can designate that slot to something more useful. The other main target it would carry a Dark attack to hit is Aegislash, but Aegi cannot threaten it back fast enough unless you run a defensive Shift Gear set. Anyway, Slowking still struggles with Dark Void. Notice a pattern?

Ferrothorn fears nothing but HP Fire and Low Kick. A bulky Azumarill can stomach everything bar Gunk Shot. Together they form a decent core, however, and Greninja can't run an entire moveset to break through them. (Or can it? Origin Pulse/Low Kick/HP Fire/Gunk Shot...) Both hate Dark Void.

Chansey sponges hits for days until it gets Knocked Off/Dark Voided/Taunted, all very common attacks. Bulky Mega Scizor is iffy; Origin Pulse does a number and HP Fire roasts it, but it doesn't mind any other attacks. Mega Blastoise takes no SE damage from anything except Grass Knot, which like Extrasensory I haven't seen, and can scare Greninja with Mega Launcher Aura Sphere or just Origin Pulse, which does a ton even if resisted or severely dents the next target coming in. Its lack of recovery makes it a shaky check over the long run. AV Raikou has a chance to live two Origin Pulses (252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 130-153 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock) and threatens to OHKO with Volt Switch (252 SpA Raikou Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 278-330 (97.5 - 115.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO). Rotom-W falls to Gunk Shot but fully specially defensive sets don't even have to worry about Grass Knot. Like Raikou it can Volt Switch for possible SE damage. Suicune is similar to Blastoise except it tends to carry Rest+Sleep Talk. Of the Pokemon in this paragraph, only Suicune doesn't mind Dark Void, but it definitely minds Taunt.

Of course there are lots of things that can come in and revenge Greninja. Any Choice Scarfer with the right coverage, STAB priority like Fake Speed, blisteringly fast attackers like Mega Sceptile and Aerodactyl, hell even Thundurus or Klefki can get off a Prankster Thunder Wave if you feel like sacrificing it for the cause. Expect the Greninja to switch out in these occasions, however. A smart player won't keep it in versus any of them, bar a Choice Scarfer that hasn't been discovered yet.

So what do you think of these options? Any you would add?

 

[Lcass4919]

Like??? Don't leave us hanging like that.

well, personally id think scizor deserves a suspect, as its probably the best setup poke in the game, having 150 stab move, backed up with shift gear, and a typing that leaves it near impossible to revenge kill.

 

[skies]

Like??? Don't leave us hanging like that.

What do people use to check and counter Greninja? I've been using Mega Gyarados to take on special sets. Here's the build I prefer, which is posted in the teambuilding shop as well:

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 92 SpD / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Waterfall
- Dragon Dance

It's not foolproof, though. Gunk Shot does a number to it and Low Kick will do a ton of damage. Nasty Plot sets can also overpower you and Taunt shuts you down completely. Plus, while asleep you're at the mercy of Sleep Talk. However, Greninja doesn't carry recovery (unless you're running my Lefties Dark Void Water Spout set), so the LO recoil is gonna wear Greninja down as you keep Resting off the damage.

Another mon with the right typing and ability to sponge most Ninjas is Mega Venusaur. Resists Water and the rare Fighting. Neutral to Ice, Dark, Fire, and Poison once you get to Thick Fat. The only other attack it fears is Extrasensory, which I have yet to see in STABmons. Dark Void can't be blocked unless you run some weird Sleep Talk set, so find something to fodder first.

Mega Sableye is notable for being immune to all status and carries quite a bit of bulk to sponge some attacks. Sadly, Origin Pulse comes in really close to a 2HKO (252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock) and you must invest all in special defense, something Sableye don't often do. Plus, what's Sableye going to do back in defense? Burn it? That puts a timer on it but doesn't stop it outright.

Then there's AV Slowking. "But Night Daze!" Yes, Dark STAB will do in Slowking, which cannot rebound the damage with Mirror Coat either. But after talking to unfixable about it, Dark isn't all that great on Greninja except to hit Slowking specifically and I don't think it's common enough to warrant that slot. Water and Ice already hit most S and A rank mons for SE or at least neutral damage and with Protean, Ice Beam > Night Daze in power. Sure, it could use Dark to hit Meloetta, but Origin Pulse already 2HKOs non-Specially Defensive sets (252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 161-191 (47.2 - 56%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO, 100% chance with Stealth Rock), and it can designate that slot to something more useful. The other main target it would carry a Dark attack to hit is Aegislash, but Aegi cannot threaten it back fast enough unless you run a defensive Shift Gear set. Anyway, Slowking still struggles with Dark Void. Notice a pattern?

Ferrothorn fears nothing but HP Fire and Low Kick. A bulky Azumarill can stomach everything bar Gunk Shot. Together they form a decent core, however, and Greninja can't run an entire moveset to break through them. (Or can it? Origin Pulse/Low Kick/HP Fire/Gunk Shot...) Both hate Dark Void.

Chansey sponges hits for days until it gets Knocked Off/Dark Voided/Taunted, all very common attacks. Bulky Mega Scizor is iffy; Origin Pulse does a number and HP Fire roasts it, but it doesn't mind any other attacks. Mega Blastoise takes no SE damage from anything except Grass Knot, which like Extrasensory I haven't seen, and can scare Greninja with Mega Launcher Aura Sphere or just Origin Pulse, which does a ton even if resisted or severely dents the next target coming in. Its lack of recovery makes it a shaky check over the long run. AV Raikou has a chance to live two Origin Pulses (252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 130-153 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock) and threatens to OHKO with Volt Switch (252 SpA Raikou Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 278-330 (97.5 - 115.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO). Rotom-W falls to Gunk Shot but fully specially defensive sets don't even have to worry about Grass Knot. Like Raikou it can Volt Switch for possible SE damage. Suicune is similar to Blastoise except it tends to carry Rest+Sleep Talk. Of the Pokemon in this paragraph, only Suicune doesn't mind Dark Void, but it definitely minds Taunt.

Of course there are lots of things that can come in and revenge Greninja. Any Choice Scarfer with the right coverage, STAB priority like Fake Speed, blisteringly fast attackers like Mega Sceptile and Aerodactyl, hell even Thundurus or Klefki can get off a Prankster Thunder Wave if you feel like sacrificing it for the cause. Expect the Greninja to switch out in these occasions, however. A smart player won't keep it in versus any of them, bar a Choice Scarfer that hasn't been discovered yet.

So what do you think of these options? Any you would add?

After reading this a second time, and discussing this with you on Showdown!, I have to say: this is a perfect example of why Greninja deserves to be banned. It has a way to get around every single one of these Pokemon that are checks to it. Though Greninja can't get around each of them at the same time, it can beat specific ones it wants to via the move. Mega Gyarados gets beaten by Grass Knot, Mega Venusaur by Extrasensory, Mega Sableye by Origin Pulse, Slowking by Knock Off, Ferrothorn by HP Fire, Azumarill by Gunk Shot (or Origin Pulse, if it gets worn down), Chansey by Knock Off / Low Kick, Mega Scizor by Origin Pulse or HP Fire, Mega Blastoise by Grass Knot, Raikou by Origin Pulse, Rotom-W by Dark Pulse, Suicune by Grass Knot, and so on. Every single check is put out of commission one way or another, and using a specific Pokemon to check Greninja only to fall to a coverage move is annoying as hell. But that's a thing as well, even its checks are able to be handled by Greninja's teammates. Here are the Greninja sets I could see being used: Dark Void / Origin Pulse / Ice Beam / [Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire / Dark Pulse (depending on the team)], Knock Off / Origin Pulse / Ice Beam [Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire / Gunk Shot], and Knock Off / Crabhammer / Low Kick / Gunk Shot. Your team better be prepared for the ninja, or you're going to be in for a tough time!

One check I've been trying out is my lovely Weavile! Weavile outspeed, Knock Off KOes all non-Dark Greninja, and it can (surprisingly) take just one Origin Pulse. Dark Void also puts Greninja out of commission, giving it a taste of its own medicine! Just a little thing that can outspeed and check. Slower Pokemon, however, I feel aren't the most solid of checks, especially those without recovery. !_!

 

[thesecondbest]

Perhaps we should ban dark void and not greninja... it also makes sableye so good and is just an annoying move. Dark type are so good in this meta... It might be too much but I think it's the best option (although it's probably thesecondbest)

 

[Pagoose]

Perhaps we should ban dark void and not greninja... it also makes sableye so good and is just an annoying move. Dark type are so good in this meta... It might be too much but I think it's the best option (although it's probably thesecondbest)

I will give my opinion later, but I want to address this. We are not going to ban any move, dark void included, unless it is broken on many pokemon, and dark void is not. We aren't going to ban dark void+greninja either. The options are a) Ban Greninja or B) Don't ban Greninja. Sorry, that's it.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Perhaps we should ban dark void and not greninja... it also makes sableye so good and is just an annoying move. Dark type are so good in this meta... It might be too much but I think it's the best option (although it's probably thesecondbest)

I agree with Pagoose that this is something that is bad and won't happen, but I just wanted to point out that that was a terrible pun btw

 

[Throbulator36]

I will give my opinion later, but I want to address this. We are not going to ban any move, dark void included, unless it is broken on many pokemon, and dark void is not. We aren't going to ban dark void+greninja either. The options are a) Ban Greninja or B) Don't ban Greninja. Sorry, that's it.

I thought the options were

1. ban greninja
2. ban kyub
3. ban neither

For real tho I'll go ahead and give argumentation on why DV isn't broken

1. Sleep Clause
2. has really only two arguably broken users(sable and ninja)
3. has generally bad accuracy

 

[skies]

No, throbulator, nothing is confirmed. My question is suspect Greninja, suspect Kyurem-Black, suspect them both at once, suspect one and not the other, or do nothing.

 

[canno]

The difference, in my opinion, is Protean. Protean leaves Greninja with nearly no counters, and is also a part of the problem in OU. Greninja by itself is absolutely not broken, but Protean makes all the difference. I don't really understand why you're comparing it to Mega Sceptile o_o?? I mean, I guess they're fast and pack Spore, but Mega Sceptile is far easier to check. The thing is, Greninja isn't sweeping teams by itself. It's going to clean up teams late game, weaken them to the point of a sweep later on, or cripple a certain member beyond repair. Your team instantly benefits by having Greninja, and the other team is instantly at a disadvantage. You use priority as an example. The most popular priority user is arguably Kangaskhan, thanks to Extreme Speed. Extreme Speed does 56.1 - 66.3% to Greninja, so it can only revenge kill a tiny bit worn down Greninja. Let's take another, more powerful example. Azumarill's Choice Band Extreme Speed does 77.1 - 90.8%, enough to potentially KO after Stealth Rock and Life Orb recoil. These are just two examples of strong priority, for the sake of showing how it takes priority. Choice Scarf users are typically good ways to check Greninja, but this was the same case in OU and it got banned...

Protean is a very strong ability I agree, but I don't think Greninja is broken, at least not in theory. I compared M-Sceptile because they're both fast mons with Sleep and powerful STABS (Origin Pulse vs Seed Flare). They can also bypass "counters" (Gren via having the right moves and Sceptile via skill Seed Flare SpDef drops :]). Although the comparison isn't perfect, it's there imho (although Scep does take up your mega).

I know Gren doesn't sweep teams on it own, but honestly I find it hard for Gren to clean up in the face of offense due to how the meta is. Also Kanga should be doing 67.3 - 79.2% imho because Silk Scarf is the #1 item (Lefties tbh don't do much for it), which kills after Fake Out damage. It's also not hard to get Gren around that percentage with hazads and lo recoil. Stout, the other most common Espeeder does 74-87.7% and Braviary (the strongest outside of Ursaring and other Gutsmons) does 80.3-94.7% (clean 50% chance to OHKO after rocks). There's also fastmons and scarfers but obv those aren't reasons enough as they also revenged him in OU and stuff. Another thing to note is that if Gren isn't running Water Spout or Low Kick it can't OHKO Kanga even with no HP investment. You also have Aegi's Shadow Sneak and Azu's Water Shurriken (remember it's not a Water / Dark type at all times thanks to Protean). Granted, Azu needs 4 hits to OHKO w/Rocks but again that damage isn't hard to get thanks to LO recoil and hazards.

I will say that, again, I'm only talking theoretically, as I haven't gotten that much experience actually playing vs Gren (most of my opponents don't have it :__:), but I don't think Gren is ban worthy atm

 

[EV]

I need to confirm something in our council convo and then the results of Greninja's quickban vote will be announced. The discussion around Kyurem-Black will continue a little while longer.

Ah yes, the "Why is this allowed in STABmons?" Pokemon. A top threat since the early days of the metagame in Gen V, Kyurem-Black is probably the poster boy when it comes to showcasing how STABmons can turn a middling threat into a ferocious one once it gains the proper tools. In standard OU, Kyurem-B's only viable physical STAB is of the Dragon variety, whereas its Ice STAB--arguably the better of the two--must come from the special side off its significantly lower Special Attack. This tends to produce mixed results, quite literally: Kyurem-B is forced to run mixed sets to benefit from the best of its dual STABs.

But in STABmons, those limits are gone. It gains setup with Dragon Dance; any physical Ice attack it wants such as Icicle Crash, Icicle Spear, and Ice Punch; and priority STAB Ice Shard. That isn't to say mixed sets have disappeared, however, because they still exist and are quite good at removing its checks and counters with moves like Earth Power and Hidden Power Fire. This versatility is backed up by impressive bulk: 125 HP / 100 Def / 90 Special Defense. Even builds with a Defensive or Specially Defensive hindering nature are still bulky enough to survive super effective hits. Add Roost to the equation ... Well, not even Einstein can solve this problem.

So what checks and counters exist?

Heatran is notable for being x4 resistant to its primary Ice STAB while carrying SE Steel with which to retaliate. Not even at +6 can Kyurem-B break through Heatran with Icicle Crash without a Life Orb (+6 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 177-208 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) whereas Heatran can use Doom Desire and then King's Shield to buy itself more Leftovers buffer, live the second Icicle Crash, and OHKO when Doom Desire hits. You have a severely crippled Heatran in the process, but you still win. None of this matters if the Kyurem-B has coverage, however, because Fusion Bolt is common and will easily break through Heatran with any boosts and Earth Power is a clean 2HKO regardless. Plus, Substitute sets block Doom Desire and allow Kyurem-B to play around the turns until it hits.

There are other Steel-types besides Heatran that work as Kyurem-B checks and that don't have to rely on a 2-turn attack to KO it. Aegislash may not have the same x4 resistances to Ice but it has the benefit of only being x2 weak to Earth Power. Even without max defensive investment, it can tank two Earth Powers with Leftovers (4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 140-166 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) and OHKO with an Adamant Gear Grind or set up Shift Gear and then OHKO with Iron Head/Meteor Mash. Air Balloon sets also work because it evades the Earth Power on the switch or takes a weaker attack to pop the balloon, meaning Kyurem-B still can't 2HKO it. Its reliability starts to lessen when Kyurem-B invests more in Special Attack, however.

Unlike the first two checks, Mega Scizor is not weak to Earth Power. It does fear Hidden Power Fire, however, a x4 effective attack that not even max specially defensive Mega Scizor can live past the 2HKO if Kyurem-B has a Life Orb. Without that coverage Scizor is able to Roost off any other damage, scare it with powerful Gear Grinds, or begin setting up on it.

Ferrothorn is also x4 weak to Fire but has the bulk to pull through most times and avoid a 2HKO. Non-substitute Kyurem-B will be met with Spore. And with negative Speed investment, Gyro Ball has 150 BP, which takes out a weakened Kyurem-B or one that has taken Stealth Rock damage. Ferrothorn can even live a +1 Icicle Crash if it gets in on a Dragon Dance (+1 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 263-309 (74.7 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). It will not appreciate the flinch, however.

Some other unorthodox checks exist, like Charm Klefki, Bronzong (a Ferrothorn alternative that trades x4 Fire for x2 Ground weakness), Mega Aggron (Teravolt ignores Filter however!), and specially defensive Jirachi. Then there's the even riskier stuff like Weavile (will lose if Kyurem-B already Dragon Danced) that slides in a Dark Void and can Low Kick it for huge damage; Fat Adamant Azumarill, which lives non-LO Fusion Bolts at max HP and can Play Rough for a 50% chance to OHKO and then Water Shuriken the next turn; Scarfed Hydreigon or Latios (don't die to Ice Shard unless at +1); and even Mega Tyranitar can go toe-to-toe and win if, again, Kyurem-B hasn't set up yet.

This post isn't exhaustive of course, so add any that you think work as checks. Also, if you disagree, post that too. We'll keep the conversation going for a few more days.

 

[thesecondbest]

So what checks and counters exist?

Heatran is notable for being x4 resistant to its primary Ice STAB while carrying SE Steel with which to retaliate. Not even at +6 can Kyurem-B break through Heatran with Icicle Crash without a Life Orb (+6 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 177-208 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) whereas Heatran can use Doom Desire and then King's Shield to buy itself more Leftovers buffer, live the second Icicle Crash, and OHKO when Doom Desire hits. You have a severely crippled Heatran in the process, but you still win. None of this matters if the Kyurem-B has coverage, however, because Fusion Bolt is common and will easily break through Heatran with any boosts and Earth Power is a clean 2HKO regardless. Plus, Substitute sets block Doom Desire and allow Kyurem-B to play around the turns until it hits.

There are other Steel-types besides Heatran that work as Kyurem-B checks and that don't have to rely on a 2-turn attack to KO it. Aegislash may not have the same x4 resistances to Ice but it has the benefit of only being x2 weak to Earth Power. Even without max defensive investment, it can tank two Earth Powers with Leftovers (4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 140-166 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) and OHKO with an Adamant Gear Grind or set up Shift Gear and then OHKO with Iron Head/Meteor Mash. Air Balloon sets also work because it evades the Earth Power on the switch or takes a weaker attack to pop the balloon, meaning Kyurem-B still can't 2HKO it. Its reliability starts to lessen when Kyurem-B invests more in Special Attack, however.

Unlike the first two checks, Mega Scizor is not weak to Earth Power. It does fear Hidden Power Fire, however, a x4 effective attack that not even max specially defensive Mega Scizor can live past the 2HKO if Kyurem-B has a Life Orb. Without that coverage Scizor is able to Roost off any other damage, scare it with powerful Gear Grinds, or begin setting up on it.

Ferrothorn is also x4 weak to Fire but has the bulk to pull through most times and avoid a 2HKO. Non-substitute Kyurem-B will be met with Spore. And with negative Speed investment, Gyro Ball has 150 BP, which takes out a weakened Kyurem-B or one that has taken Stealth Rock damage. Ferrothorn can even live a +1 Icicle Crash if it gets in on a Dragon Dance (+1 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 263-309 (74.7 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). It will not appreciate the flinch, however.

Some other unorthodox checks exist, like Charm Klefki, Bronzong (a Ferrothorn alternative that trades x4 Fire for x2 Ground weakness), Mega Aggron (Teravolt ignores Filter however!), and specially defensive Jirachi. Then there's the even riskier stuff like Weavile (will lose if Kyurem-B already Dragon Danced) that slides in a Dark Void and can Low Kick it for huge damage; Fat Adamant Azumarill, which lives non-LO Fusion Bolts at max HP and can Play Rough for a 50% chance to OHKO and then Water Shuriken the next turn; Scarfed Hydreigon or Latios (don't die to Ice Shard unless at +1); and even Mega Tyranitar can go toe-to-toe and win if, again, Kyurem-B hasn't set up yet.

This post isn't exhaustive of course, so add any that you think work as checks. Also, if you disagree, post that too. We'll keep the conversation going for a few more days.

Notice that all of the checks/counters are steel types besides the riskier ones. Isn't that kind of an issue? Magnezone can easily screw all of them over besides tran and jirachi. Just commenting on this, I don't think it's fair for every team to need to run a steel type

 

[skies]

I'm incredibly on the fence with this one, I need someone to sway my opinion @_@! Let me begin this with my thoughts as to why Kyurem-Black is broken. I complained about this a few months ago, but now that the metagame has been shifting I'm just not sure. We have all those checks that Eevee General mentioned. For what it's worth, I've never ever seen a Hidden Power Fire Kuyrem-Black... do those even exist? It sounds pretty chill, but I haven't used it. Anyways! One thing that's incredibly common is Mega Scizor, which flat out stops Kyurem-Black. My biggest concern with Kyurem-Black is how pressed it is to find room to set up. Even with excellent bulk, it has a terrible typing. Many offensive Pokemon can halt it before it begins. For example, Terrakion can Close Combat it before it can move, thus preventing set up. Defensively, it's weak to many common attacking types such as the aforementioned Fighting-type, along with other common offensive tools like Rock or Fairy. Speaking of Rock and Fairy, Mega Diancie is an excellent check! Another option includes Sleep, which Greninja or Sableye can provide. Taunt is incredibly common too, so that's an issue. With offensive pressure being such a halt to set up, I question whether or not it's truly broken.

However, there's that issue, very very small, when Kyurem-Black actually sets up! If it gets that one crucial turn to set up, then your team is absolutely screwed. The fact that one Pokemon wields the power to turn the tide of a game in one turn, without even too much support, are what lean me on the ban side. Any other set but Dragon Dance is not broken, so I'm not mentioning those. They're good, no doubt, but Dragon Dance is what makes Kyurem-Black a shining star. Sub / DD / Roost / Spear is going to set up on a lot, then sweep a lot. If you don't pack two solid Ice resists, that can prepare to take a lure Fusion Bolt, then you're kinda done for. And then there's matches where you just simply can't avoid Kyurem-Black setting up, even if you try very hard. It's a terrifying late game win condition that manhandles Stall and Balance playstyles single handedly. What on Stall isn't passive enough to take on Kyurem-Black? Not much! Heatran can be handled fairly easily with a teammate taking care of it. I built a team featuring Dugtrio + Kyurem-Black just because of Heatran being such a massive pain for Kyurem-Black. Dugtrio's cool too, but that's a story for a different time. With limited counters after set up that Kyurem-Black typically isn't setting up on until later int he match when they're removed, I'm going to lean to the ban side for the moment.

All in all, I think it's a terrifying sweeper in its own right if you lack offensive pressure. I need someone to persuade me!

 

[Pagoose]

Kind of a late post on greninja but whatever. I am at the moment undecided on whether or not to ban it, so I am just going to write about pros and cons and decide based on that. This is hard for me because Greninja isn't like other pokemon in terms of counters. Instead of a small list of counters like Mega Aerodactyl, it has a large list but it depends on the moves it has. Like, I can think of lots of counters, but lots of them get fucked if Greninja decides to run something uncommon like Grass Knot or Low Kick, an underrated move imo. There is also Dark Void which it can use to get past soft checks anyway if it doesn't get unlucky.

As I said, Greninja is a pokemon that has very few solid counters, but major trouble picking what moves to use. It doesn't have 4MMS as such, because it is still amazing with just 4 moves, and there is a solid list: Origin Pulse, Ice Beam, Dark Void, Knock Off, Gunk Shot, and Low Kick being the most common/viable, with some niche uses of Dark Pulse/Night Daze, Hidden Power Fire, Grass Knot and some random moves like Extrasensory and Crabhammer. Depending on the moves, Greninja can get past the large majority of slower pokemon with its wide range of super effective coverage, helped by the addition of Knock Off and Dark Void into its moveset. It can also run a Nasty Plot set, but I think that is outclassed by 4 attacks or 3 attacks Dark Void sets due to finding a very hard time setting up against much due to its sub-par bulk. Greninja much prefers to be breaking down balance teams rather than trying to sweep, considering how frail it is and the multitude of frankly better sweepers. Also, using Gunk Shot in particular, and Knock Off too, means that you can't just throw a special wall at it and be done, making it extremely dangerous. Greninja's excellent wall breaking capabilities are rounded off by an excellent speed stat of 122, making it not only difficult to switch into but able to outspeed them too.

Now, onto the number of counters. I am assuming 252 attack in both stats just for arguements sake. Defensive Gyarados is a very solid counter, taking 40-47% max from 252 attack Gunk Shot. Ferrothorn is a great counter that can even wear down Low Kick sets through LO+Iron Barbs+Spiky Shield or Kings Shield, but watch out for the rare HP Fire. Max SpDef Mega Sableye tanks everything bar super high rolls Origin Pulse and doesn't have to worry about being outskilled by sleep turns. Mega Venusaur is an extremely solid counter that only dies to the sub-par extrasensory. Alomomola, Suicune, and any other random bulky water types like Milotic and Vaporeon are great counters bar grass knot. Tentacruel doesn't have recovery but can tank hits pretty easily bar knock off, which annoys it by knocking off black sludge but still only 3HKOs with max attack, and 4HKOs with less. Gastrodon is an amazing counter that can take everything except Grass Knot. Slowbro can counter even Knock Off sets, although Dark Pulse will destroy it. Empoleon counters all non-Low Kick sets and is really underrated. Umbreon is a good counter, taking 35-42% from 252 attack Gunk Shot and Low Kick. Rotom-W can tank a hit or two then pain split back to full and volt switch out. Klefki can switch in on anything for no damage at all except Origin Pulse and threaten a t-wave, while recovering with moonlight.

However, Greninja has access to Dark Void. This allows it to take a pokemon that would normally counter it and get at potentially 1 or even 2 or 3 more free hits off. It basically means you have to sack something to sleep and then send in your counter, making Greninja way harder to properly counter. For example, Gyarados is a very solid counter, but with Dark Void it can easily beat it as long as it Gyarados doesn't get a first turn wake. A lot of the other counters I listed are really shaky, even with less attack investment. Rotom-W, Tentacruel, and Empoleon all don't have reliable recovery, while many other counters can be bullshitted past by dark void.

After thinking about all of this I am definitely leaning towards ban. I am still sort of hesitant though, because I feel like the prediction some made about more bans in the aftermath of Diggersby being banned is coming true. Mega Aerodactyl wasn't part of that, but Greninja and possible future others are. I guess I'm gonna have to go with ban for the reasons listed above. I know our expectations for banning are raised quite a bit in stabmons due to all the power creep but I feel Greninja needs to go because it basically has no counters with Dark Void thrown into the mix. I think comparisons to Mega Sceptile or other pokemon with sleep aren't very accurate because there are proper counters for them. Anyway, I'm gonna have to go with ban.

 

[skies]

Greninja is hereby banned from the STABmons Metagame
5 ban | 0 do not ban | 0 abstain
​

The votes are in! Greninja is now gone! Due to a lack of solid counters, all of which are put to Sleep or beaten through a teammate, and backed behind great Speed and power, Greninja was decided as too much for the tier. Its flagship Dark Void + 3 Attacks set was too powerful for the current metagame, even with priority being an effective check. That was the issue. Absolutely nothing switched in, fearing the Dark Void. Its checks all were put to Sleep and beaten. It gave offense a tough time, balance an even harder time, and still put a dent in Stall. For its ability to pressure all playstyles, along with simply making your team better by having it there, we've decided that Greninja was unhealthy for the metagame.

Expect a verdict on Kyurem-Black soon! A council member has yet to place their vote, so it's currently undecided. Either way: it's close!

Edit: Ahh, the vote was there, I just skipped over it >_<.

So, that means that

Kyurem-Black is also hereby banned from the STABmons Metagame
3 ban | 2 do not ban | 0 abstain
​

Kyurem-Black is an unbelievable set up sweeper that, once it gets rolling, is nearly impossible to stop thanks to its combination of high bulk, neutrality to common priority, and exceptional power. All it really needed was Dragon Dance, Ice STAB, and Roost, and then you have a monster on your hand. It could run viable mixed sets to get around common counters, and even purely physical or purely special. Kyurem-Black is too powerful to be considered healthy for the metagame, and will thus be banned from the STABmons metagame.​

Tagging The Immortal for implementation.

 

[Choice Banned]

Will Greninja be included under Banned, or just disappear from Unbanned, seeing as it is Uber in standard play as well?

 

[thesecondbest]

un-unbanned, op will be updated as soon as the code is i think.
If sableye gets banned the meta will be perfect <3

 

[xJownage]

un-unbanned, op will be updated as soon as the code is i think.
If sableye gets banned the meta will be perfect <3

Kyube says hi.

If i have to vote on it, I would probably leave it in, but the stabmons banning philosophy leaves it broken imo.