Ladder STABmons (the old one)

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xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Terrak is far from broken in OU and it gains very little from STABmons, why would it be broken here?
Because of a lack of reliable counters as well as ways to boost its attack and speed. I don't know, but it doesn't take an idiot to see how bad the slippery slope is here and the fact it will likely never end. People thought it would end after Mega Aero. People thought it would end after the previous ban. Well, here we are.
 
As Akumeoy mentioned in the viablility rankings, Arcanine does a great job as a Scizor counter too.

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 126-148 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Arcanine then has a variety of options, from Flare Blitz and Overheat to Will-o.
 
and since this is stabmons it can get v-create sacred fire blue flare and searing shot too v-create and blue flare for sweeping and sacred fire and searing shot for walling.
 
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EV

Banned deucer.
xJownage what you're saying about slippery slopes isn't necessarily true. While removing Diggersby did open the floodgates so to speak, one can blame the fact that Diggersby had kept broken stuff in check for too long and now we're finally seeing them for what they are. The problem with that statement, however, is we haven't just been banning things Diggersby checked: Kyurem, Mega Aero, and Mega Scizor were not contained by the bun bun. Maybe we're more focused on them because the opportunity cost of Diggersby is gone? Then again, it's been how long since we kicked him out and we're still blaming repercussions on him?

There is a second part to xJownage's post that I hadn't planned on announcing yet. I still need to cement the options with the council. However, you can expect a change to come after OMPL if we can decide a change is needed. The last thing I want is to ban forever, but I also don't want to sit on my hands over fears of banning too much while broken threats roam free. The hope is these changes I'll present later will fix the root problem that produces so many broken Pokemon. Again, OMPL has priority and focus, so stay tuned.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
And here continues the endless slippery slope of stabmons banning. Guys, this isn't going to stop. The best mon is always going to be considered broken in this tier because of the restrictions on all playstyles to check/counter all those threats in just 6 slots. My recommendation is that we wait to see what Eevee General does after OMPL. We shouldn't worry too much when I don't think we'll need to.

As of now, I think this meta is about as healthy as we can get it, the next best mon is always going to be up for banning. When mega scizor and darkrai both get banned, Terrakion is next. Just calling it now.
I haven't yet formed an opinion on whether or not Scizor-Mega should be banned, but I cannot understand why you are using a slippery slope argument to justify why Scizor-Mega shouldn't be banned. This is wrong on so many levels. First off, it is literally a logical fallacy. We can't know for certain that it will lead to more pokemon being banned later down the road. And even if it does, why is that a bad thing? Are you saying that it is better to leave broken pokemon in the metagame than attempt to make the metagame more balanced by banning the broken pokemon? Obviously the next best mon will always be a subject for testing. The goal is to get to a point where there is no "next best mon" and there is no one single pokemon that dominates or centralizes the metagame. Sure, it might take a while to reach a point where the metagame is balanced, but using a slippery slope as your sole argument for why Scizor-Mega should not be banned is just absurd.

Point is: If anyone here thinks that Scizor-Mega should not be banned, demonstrate that it is not broken. Refute the points that unfixable laid out. Show reliable checks and counters. Show that it does not centralize the metagame. Please don't use shitty arguments that have no relevance to the suspect at hand.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
First off, I never was suggesting mega scizor should not be banned, I was pointing out this is happening.

While Diggs didn't check those mons, the ability to run Diggs on literally any team made it much easier to check those threats, making them less broken. Having an extra teamslot or two made threats a lot easier to handle, but the extra restriction now that it takes more to check threats is all we needed to start the slope.

Suggesting ALL of these mons would have been banned if diggersby stayed is desperate and really illogical. I also can't remember the number of times people said nothing would have to get banned post diggs, or that only a couple bans would take place. Since Diggersby was banned we have almost constantly been suspecting something and it's absolutely absurd. If I told you people would be screaming for darkrai to be banned during the diggs suspect you would laugh at me, and here we are.

Before we suspect anything we need to wait for two things. The first, obviously, being OMPL, the second being eevee's decision on the change. If it goes through we won't be banning anything, so let's be patient.
 
As Akumeoy mentioned in the viablility rankings, Arcanine does a great job as a Scizor counter too.

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 126-148 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Arcanine then has a variety of options, from Flare Blitz and Overheat to Will-o.
This is true, but then we're dipping into the "using obscure Pokemon" spectrum of the banning philosophy. I've never personally seen an Arcanine, nor have I used it, but it seems quite niche. Not sure though. Akumeoy: how does it work out for you? Does it always do its job? By any chance, do you have any replays of Arcanine being used? I would like to know how you used it.
 
While Diggs didn't check those mons, the ability to run Diggs on literally any team made it much easier to check those threats, making them less broken. Having an extra teamslot or two made threats a lot easier to handle, but the extra restriction now that it takes more to check threats is all we needed to start the slope.
There was no slippery slope. The reason all these things are being banned now is because, starting with the 3rd(note how people continually thought it was broken despite 2 rulings) Diggs suspect, the way that "broken" is defined in STABmons received a massive overhaul, as before that suspect Diggersby couldn't be considered broken by STABmons standards. Obviously, such a change would not only cause bans on pokemon kept in check by diggs but also mons protected by that earlier definition(keldeo, aerodactyl, etc.).
I also can't remember the number of times people said nothing would have to get banned post diggs, or that only a couple bans would take place. Since Diggersby was banned we have almost constantly been suspecting something and it's absolutely absurd.
Who the fuck would actually believe that no mons would get banned as a result of the diggs suspect?! The reason that mons are getting constantly suspected is because of the re-definition of what it means to be broken in STABmons.
If I told you people would be screaming for darkrai to be banned during the diggs suspect you would laugh at me, and here we are.
If I told you that people would be screaming for aerodactyl or keldeo to be banned you would laugh at me. The reason is because according to the old definition of "broken" they were simply not worthy of the title.

The reason the definition was changed is because the metagame was unhealthy previously and the only way to cleanse it was to change the definition.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
I don't have much to say on a potential Scizor suspect (since imho its too early, considering that OMPL is happening and the fact that many of the previous Ubers like Darkrai and (the most metagame changing imho) Aegislash might leave), but I do have to say that I agree with xJownage to an extent that STABmons has gotten a bit ban-happy since Diggersby. First of all, a slippery slope argument is not inherently a fallacy - it's only a fallacy if you base your argument without any rational argument, or something similar. Whether you want to treat his argument as a fallacy or not (it's based on pattern recognition - we've had 2 suspects in a row since Bun's Ban, and one that is suggested) is w/e but it's not inherently a fallacy. However, I definitely don't blame Diggersby for this - at least not directly. Most of the things that we've banned since Diggersby didn't give much of a shit about Diggersby. Kyurem-B was bulky enough to handle a FakeSpeed from the bunny, and M-Aero resists FakeSpeed and is immune to ground, not to mention doesn't really care about Knock Off - only Wild Charge or Ice Punch would suffice, which were sub-optimal options on Diggersby in ORAS imho. What I do "blame" on Diggersby is that banning Diggersby was one of the toughest decisions (it had 3 suspects) and one of the biggest changes in the meta. Even since this monster got banned, the STABmons Council has been much more open to banning things such as Kyu-B and M-Aero since banning Diggs did not, in fact, break the meta. So in a way it did open up a "floodgate" of bans, but not in the way I think people would think. I do think we should let up on banning things, but Kyu-B and M-Aero were broken. M-Scizor I'm more on the fence about, but the other two were definitely broke. It's also important to note that banning things is probably the easiest way to freshen up the metagame, which could also be a reason for suspects.

I forsee three other suspects at the moment - one has been blatantly presented in the form of M-Scizor. The other is also a given - the old Ubers (I'm treating it as a suspect even though it's technically not). Finally, I can see Togekiss being the third suspect. This was brought up ages ago as a potential suspect, and I was against it at the time. Now, however, I'm realizing how stupid it is. A set of Geomancy / O-Wing / Sub / Aura or Flamethrower can completely destroy late-game. This is even more true if M-Scizor gets the axe, since it can take an OWing from the bulky sets and even the 252+ SpA sets if its bulky M-Scizor. This lets M-Scizor at least check non-Flamethrower (which gets checked by Aegislash - something else that might leave soon) at full health. With those things gone, what's going to stop it? Heatran dies to +2 Aura Sphere when it's weakened - an easy task vs something with no reliable recovery. Also, Heatran needs Roar to even do anything to Toge - Toge eats up Flash Cannons and Doom Desires (having both on the same set could win, but that's stupid)`at +2 (Doom Desire in theory does a lot of damage, but Toge can just Sub and essentially only take 25% since it's a 2-turn move). After that, it all just depends on the meta.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
It is a fallacy because there are two fallacious assumptions that are being made:
1. That banning mons is a bad thing.
2. That we will continue banning mons without actually reaching a balance in the metagame.

These two are baseless claims are what make this slippery slope argument a fallacy.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
I like what's being discussed; keep it up. I do disagree with one of The Reptile 's points, however.

It's also important to note that banning things is probably the easiest way to freshen up the metagame, which could also be a reason for suspects.
Suspecting should never be used as an excuse to freshen up a stale metagame. I do not and will not pursue suspects solely to freshen up STABmons. Myself and the council will suspect threats when we feel it might be broken, and while I used to be more gun-shy about banning too much, I'd rather foster a healthy metagame rather than be willfully ignorant and let stuff slide because we're worried about a slippery slope. Again, that comes back the potential changes that will show up later, in which case this talk about suspecting Scizor may be entirely moot.

To be clear: there will be no bans during OMPL, there will be a large discussion on the Ubers clause, and we will open up these 'mysterious changes' to the community, probably in that order.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
I honestly think absolutely nobody knows what the others are talking about atm. Let me make an organized post please. Nobody so far has correctly interpreted anything I have said.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Anybody accusing me of making assumptions is being very hypocritical, considering none of you have talked to me to hear my personal arguments and responses to yours. This entire argument is misjudged and people are twisting it, which is creating a lot of animosity on both sides. Just don't keep taking little peices of my argument and acting like the whole thing is wrong because you made an incorrect assumption about it please, its starting to piss me off, and if I get angry this thread will probably get locked. Just a fair warning.

Since the Diggersby ban we have banned in immediate succession: Mega Aerodactyl, Greninja, and Kyurem-Black. The first question asked is this: Did Diggersby cause these mons to be banned, directly or indirectly? Well the answer is yes for all 3. Greninja was directly checked by Diggersby, however that really isn't very relevant. Mega Aerodactyl is actually used as a diggersby check on offense. So why would Diggersby, a peice of its viability in the first place, cause it to be banned?

Something that got viability supposedly taken away with the Diggersby ban was quickly proved to be broken as well. Basically, in the post-diggersby metagame, Mega Aerodactyl got MORE effective, despite one of its major uses being eliminated. The simple fact is that Diggersby didn't restrict teams, it restricted the meta. Diggersby's presence actually made it EASIER to teambuild. Having the ability to slap one mon on all your teams that blanket checks 85% of the entire metagame meant it was much easier to check selective threats, such as mega aerodactyl. Fitting a bulky Landorus-T onto your team was easier. Fitting Weavile or Kyurem-Black or other mons that check Mega Aero onto your team was suddenly a very simple idea, and was not difficult at all. This made these threats less effective than a post-diggersby meta would make them.

Fast forward to the post-Diggersby ban metagame. Now, without a check to 85% of the meta, we have to resort to weaker or less consistent ways to check such threats. Furthermore, they are much less reliable and don't fit on all playstyles, and also lack versatility. The result is more teamslots have to be consumed attempting to blanket check threats Diggersby normally did, which restricted building. Further enhancing the problem, this made the threats that have to be checked specifically - Mega Aerodactyl, Greninja, Mega Scizor, Kyurem-Black, etc. - much harder to check. They no longer fit on teams so easily, and therefore teambuilding became more RESTRICTED, rather than more free, because it took more slots to check threats. Since teams could no longer run one mon to check 85% of the meta, they had to run more mons or further restrict their team (in the case of ursaring) to check the same portion of the meta, restricting teambuilding.


The Definition of Stabmons banning really did not change with the Diggersby ban. It had been suspected twice, but there was a marked difference in discussion on the third and final suspect test. Many more people had their opinions changed in the time between the second and third susupect, which was the primary cause in the different result of the final suspect. Mega Aerodactyl fit the mold of previous stabmons bans, such as keldeo, in the post-diggersby meta - Checks/Counters were hard to fit on teams. I personally believed Diggersby fit the mold of "required to fit checks onto teams seamlessly, which was difficult," which was the same as the aforementioned Keldeo ban. The other argument surrounding Diggersby was the overcentralization. Nothing like this has ever occured since. Mega Aerodactyl, in the post-diggs ban conditions, but when we had the mindset around the time of the Keldeo ban, would still end up banned. Diggersby did not redefine Stabmons banning, it redefined the metagame, and made things so much harder on builders that other mons ended up overcentralizing the tier.


No, this is not an illogical fallacy, and how you believe it is such is beyond me. I do not believe bans are "bad" necessarily, what I believe is that bans are a "last resort" or sorts. They are what we do when something excessively restricts teambuilding or has so few viable counters that we have no choice to ban it because there is no way to successfully adapt. Bans aren't a bad thing, they just aren't something we do because a threat breaks our team. Adapt first, if it doesn't work, then ban. However, Kit Kasai, your argument is baseless as well. Saying the argument is based around banning being bad presumes that I oppose banning mons, but I have supported EVERY suspect test done in the post-Diggersby meta, and I wanted all but Kyurem-Black banned, which I was one the fence about anyways. I do support all the bans in this tier, my only point is that this metagame is hard to balance.

Your second reason for it being an illogical fallacy is just as baseless of an assumption. My point wasn't that we are never going to achieve balance, my point is that we may achieve a maximum amount of balance. Personally, the concept of balance isn't a yes or no question as you suggested. The metagame isn't either balanced or unbalanced, but rather, is always balanced to some extent or another. The amount of balance is what makes a tier stable. The problem is that currently, with the way stabmons work, some threats are hard to counter. This is just the nature of the metagame, and we have to deal with it. With the restriction the depth of the tier has, it will be hard to pack counters to everything on teams. Some of you feel this is the way tiers should work, but the Stabmons metagame is different. Because the tier is so deep in viability, it is inherently impossible to viably counter everything in the metagame on one team. Therefore, there will logically always be something very difficult to counter. The best mon is the next man up, and unless it has a lot of counters, it will go as well.

Even though this is a reason, it still is NOT the basis of the slippery slope argument. We don't know if we can achieve balance in this metagame, however there is the chance we can, and we continue to grind away towards it by banning the next man up. The reason I brought this up is because I think the council could finally push their bounds too far, in which case we ban something where its not necessary, and consequently risk losing some of our balance. It was also to sate peoples tempers and make people wait for after OMPL and Eevee's decision to go crazy before people started talking about a mega scizor ban, which apparently will happen, however people decide to blow up the slippery slope argument without any evidence and without knowing the true argument itself.

Now that I've actually backed up this argument I'm done talking about it. As of now, its irrelevant and I don't want to talk about it when it holds no relevance to this suspect. It was merely a footnote that led me to creating a 1205 word post.
 
Mega Scizor
Been way too long since I've been significantly involved in the meta, but I was always surprised, back in the day, by how vicious Mega Scizor was and how hard it was for me to imagine a counter to it. Priority doesn't really work on it because it's too bulky (And resistant to the best priority around -Extreme Speed) and there's no Fire-type priority and no way to get any, one of the two (Viable) Unaware Pokémon is outright vulnerable to its primary STAB (Gear Grind), you can't necessarily revenge it with a Scarf because it's Speed isn't awful and Shift Gear doubles its Speed in one use, little can revenge it on pure Speed alone after a single Shift Gear, it has recovery (Roost) so some sets can afford to switch in repeatedly in an attempt to fish for the sweep, it's immune to Toxic so even something like Prankster Toxic can't force it out of the field, it has its own priority for killing any number of things before they get a chance to act (Reinforcing the problems with trying to kill it with priority, Scarves, outspeeding normally, etc), its only type-weakness is a little underwhelming in STABmons (V-Create is cool and all, but you've got no boosting moves, the only support move you get -Will O Wisp- is universally available to everything except Castform-Sunny anyway, no priority, etc) and there's no competent Fire/type Pokémon out there to leverage something to deal with Mega Scizor that isn't held back by some flaw as regards to countering Mega Scizor. (eg it can rip Heatran apart with Superpower)

Honestly, I think the main reason it didn't seem broken before is that it wasn't popular because it wasn't, for lack of a better word, "cool" like a lot of now banned threats were. (eg Diggersby had insanely powerful priority, beyond anything that can be found in Standard, while Kyurem-Black was a novelty because in Standard nothing with its BST is legal other than it) STABmons Mega Scizor is basically Standard Mega Scizor, but better. (Swords Dance is replaced by Shift Gear while Gear Grind replaces Iron Head as your non-priority Steel STAB, basically) So it was (and is) boring by comparison, and thus unpopular.

I can't actually think of a way to reliably take down (Or scare out, at least) Mega Scizor. I would think maybe Quagsire, except apparently Pin Missile variants can kill it. How are you supposed to counter Mega Scizor?
 
This is true, but then we're dipping into the "using obscure Pokemon" spectrum of the banning philosophy. I've never personally seen an Arcanine, nor have I used it, but it seems quite niche. Not sure though. Akumeoy: how does it work out for you? Does it always do its job? By any chance, do you have any replays of Arcanine being used? I would like to know how you used it.
I based my ranking suggestion off of a combination of theorymon and seeing other people use it on the ladder. I don't have Arcanine on my team -- I use Gyarados because it has much better type synergy for checking other threats (namely, using Arcanine would let Azumarill destroy me, but that's just my team). I am currently in the process of building a team with it, so maybe some time in the near future I'll have more to say on that front.

Honestly, I don't think Arcanine's viability has any bearing on whether Scizorite should be banned -- I'm leery of anything that only has two reliable counters, even if both of them happen to be generally useful. But maybe that's just me.

I do agree that Arcanine is more niche than anything. I don't think it would fail to do work in matches where the opponent isn't running Mega Scizor (Fire is a solid defensive and great offensive typing, Intimidate is great, reliable recovery and Espeed are both quite useful), but I do suspect that Scizor is the only reason people bother running Arcanine.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
Another good answer to Mega Scizor is defensive Gyarados, who is a bit less niche. It competes heavily with Lando-T, but it does have utility over it, such as priority, Thunder Wave, and phazing in the form of Roar and Dragon Tail.


Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Waterfall / Basically any other STAB move (Crabhammer, Water Shurriken, Brave Bird, ect.)
- Roost
- Roar / Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave / Water Shurriken / Defog

This thing is a cold stop to M-Scizor, as it's strongest move against you is Gear Grind (outdamages Koff), and it does..

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 126-148 (32 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

...at +1 (Intimidate a bae). It can't set-up on you since you can Roar it out or even T-Wave and Waterfall it to death if that's what you're running. It needs +2 to 2HKO you and +4 to OHKO you, so you should be relatively safe doing this. It's also a generally bulky and useful mon.

Less of a counter and more of a check is Aegislash, since it can live +1 Koff in Shield Form even without defense investment - only HP is needed (which is standard on every Aegislash bar Shift Gear), although it does require you to basically be untouched, which is asking a bit too much. Still, you force Scizor into playing a 50/50 game with King's Shield, which is always fun. The only problem is that Shadow Ball is not doing enough - it can 2HKO variants without bulk but once you give it defensive EVs it gets shaky. Still, it completely walls non-Koff variants and plays 50/50s with Koff variants, so it's a decent check.
 
As a more permanent solution for Scizor, Gyarados does have a decent special movepool which happens to include Fire blast.

0 SpA Gyarados Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 212-252 (61.8 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's a very small niche, but it does also deal with Ferrothorn and Skarmory, two common stops to the offensive sets.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
Doesn't gyarados only prolong the enevitable?
Not if you paralyze it with Thunder Wave. Considering most don't run Bullet Punch (imho they should - still a great move), Scizor gets heavily crippled by that and, unlike Thundy-I, doesn't need to sack itself to do it. The only time you prolong the inevitable is if you don't run Thunder Wave.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
I have bad news regarding Gyarados guys. I pulled up the Mega Scizor analysis on the dex (woo OM C&C!) and plugged in the suggested EV spread to the damage calc. Thanks to Roost, and even after getting paralyzed, Scizor still has a chance to break Gyarados.

Let's say Gyara switches in as Mega Scizor uses Shift Gear. Knowing the Gyarados is bulky defensive, the Scizor player uses Knock Off to remove its Leftovers and proceeds to get Thunder Waved. (In reality the Scizor player should know to switch but let's assume he can't.)

Player 1: 0+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 91-108 (23.1 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Player 2: Thunder Wave (no damage)
Scizor: 100% health, paralyzed, +0 Atk, +2 Spe; Gyarados: 72.6 - 76.9% health

Scizor knows Knock Off will be much weaker now and Gear Grind isn't strong enough to KO, so it will probably Shift Gear again. Gyarados has a few options, but doesn't need to Roost quite yet and can attack with ease. I'm assuming it's running TWave/Roost/Crabhammer/Brave Bird btw.

Player 1: Shift Gear (no damage)
Player 2: 8 Atk Gyarados Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Mega Scizor: 111-132 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO (-9 - 11% HP for recoil)
Scizor: 61.6 - 67.7% health, paralyzed, +1 Atk, +4 Spe; Gyarados: 61.6 - 65.9% health

Gyarados outspeeds Scizor (198 vs. 174 after paralysis) so it will probably attack again, as +1 Gear Grind still can't do enough to KO at this point. Scizor will want to roost here; it's the smart move.

Player 1: Roost (+50%) (If it gets fully paralyzed on this turn, it loses.)
Player 2: 8 Atk Gyarados Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Mega Scizor: 111-132 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO (-9 - 11% HP for recoil)
Scizor: 73.2 - 79.3% health, paralyzed, +1 Atk, +4 Spe; Gyarados: 50.6 - 54.9% health

Basically this goes back and forth, alternating between Scizor Roosting/Shift Gearing and Gyarados attacking/Roosting until:

Player 1: +5 0+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 368-434 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to OHKO, whereas +6 is a guaranteed OHKO.

Things are worse for Gyarados with Rocks on the field. Shifting 252 EVs into Attack doesn't benefit it much either, as Brave Bird is at most a 3HKO; the only difference now being it's guaranteed. Adding Fire Blast falls into the "obscure checks" category to be quite honest, as I've never seen Gyarados run it even if you're implying it can use it for Ferrothorn and Skarmory, plus it's a waste of a moveslot that should be devoted to utility or STAB.

The scenario above is probably unlikely to happen most of the time when these two encounter each other, but it's relevant if we're trying to find the best Mega Scizor counters. My favorite for a while was Rotom-H which has Nuzzle to do the same as Thunder Wave or you can just Lava Plume which OHKOs 248/0 with no investment. The problem with Rotom is it loses to 2 Knock Offs after SR damage if Mega Scizor invests in Attack besides just Adamant. However, the dex set I used cannot 2HKO:

+1 0+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 112-132 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 75-89 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
+25%
86.6 - 97.8% chance to OHKO
 
I have bad news regarding Gyarados guys. I pulled up the Mega Scizor analysis on the dex (woo OM C&C!) and plugged in the suggested EV spread to the damage calc. Thanks to Roost, and even after getting paralyzed, Scizor still has a chance to break Gyarados.

Let's say Gyara switches in as Mega Scizor uses Shift Gear. Knowing the Gyarados is bulky defensive, the Scizor player uses Knock Off to remove its Leftovers and proceeds to get Thunder Waved. (In reality the Scizor player should know to switch but let's assume he can't.)

Player 1: 0+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 91-108 (23.1 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Player 2: Thunder Wave (no damage)
Scizor: 100% health, paralyzed, +0 Atk, +2 Spe; Gyarados: 72.6 - 76.9% health

Scizor knows Knock Off will be much weaker now and Gear Grind isn't strong enough to KO, so it will probably Shift Gear again. Gyarados has a few options, but doesn't need to Roost quite yet and can attack with ease. I'm assuming it's running TWave/Roost/Crabhammer/Brave Bird btw.

Player 1: Shift Gear (no damage)
Player 2: 8 Atk Gyarados Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Mega Scizor: 111-132 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO (-9 - 11% HP for recoil)
Scizor: 61.6 - 67.7% health, paralyzed, +1 Atk, +4 Spe; Gyarados: 61.6 - 65.9% health

Gyarados outspeeds Scizor (198 vs. 174 after paralysis) so it will probably attack again, as +1 Gear Grind still can't do enough to KO at this point. Scizor will want to roost here; it's the smart move.

Player 1: Roost (+50%) (If it gets fully paralyzed on this turn, it loses.)
Player 2: 8 Atk Gyarados Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Mega Scizor: 111-132 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO (-9 - 11% HP for recoil)
Scizor: 73.2 - 79.3% health, paralyzed, +1 Atk, +4 Spe; Gyarados: 50.6 - 54.9% health

Basically this goes back and forth, alternating between Scizor Roosting/Shift Gearing and Gyarados attacking/Roosting until:

Player 1: +5 0+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 368-434 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to OHKO, whereas +6 is a guaranteed OHKO.

Things are worse for Gyarados with Rocks on the field. Shifting 252 EVs into Attack doesn't benefit it much either, as Brave Bird is at most a 3HKO; the only difference now being it's guaranteed. Adding Fire Blast falls into the "obscure checks" category to be quite honest, as I've never seen Gyarados run it even if you're implying it can use it for Ferrothorn and Skarmory, plus it's a waste of a moveslot that should be devoted to utility or STAB.

The scenario above is probably unlikely to happen most of the time when these two encounter each other, but it's relevant if we're trying to find the best Mega Scizor counters. My favorite for a while was Rotom-H which has Nuzzle to do the same as Thunder Wave or you can just Lava Plume which OHKOs 248/0 with no investment. The problem with Rotom is it loses to 2 Knock Offs after SR damage if Mega Scizor invests in Attack besides just Adamant. However, the dex set I used cannot 2HKO:

+1 0+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 112-132 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 75-89 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
+25%
86.6 - 97.8% chance to OHKO
I find that Gyarados is fully capable of giving up a STAB move and running Dragon Tail if you want it to stop setup sweepers (like Mega Scizor) and rack up hazard damage.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Like other forms of phazing, Dragon Tail delays the inevitable. That's why Skarmory is only good at shuffling Scizor and not countering it. 1-on-1, Skarm loses, and so would Dragon Tail Gyarados if it sacrificed the wrong STAB move (it needs the high BP of Brave Bird to be a relevant counter.)

This is similar to relying on WW Chansey to check Togekiss. Somebody I know (I don't want to ruin their strategy completely) lets their entire team faint on purpose to have Togekiss as their last Pokemon so it can't be phazed after a Geomancy. That's an extreme scenario, but it shows how phazing should not be counted on. Also, hazard damage is mitigated by Roost so I don't see the benefit with racking it up unless you mean against the team in general.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
The only way you get in a situation where Roar / D-Tail + T-Wave Gyara loses to M-Scizor is if M-Scizor is the last Pokemon on their team, and if it is at worst you can rely on intimidate spam unless Gyarados is also your last mon. Not to mention you're situation is bias towards Scizor - you're assuming that Scizor can go that long without getting fully para'd once or twice. Sure you shouldn't argue hax, but if Scizor needs that many turns to beat Gyara it would be hax not getting at least 1 para, which at best just prolongs Scizor's game (and thus increase the chance of a crucial hax happening) or a crucial para happens (i.e Scizor ends up low and can't roost) and then it dies. This isn't even factoring the fact that you can also run Waterfall (on a defensive set it has merit because more PP + more reliable than Crabhammer), which gives Scizor even less chance to get out alive from that situation. Plus if you really want Gyara to beat Scizor you could run Fire Blast (although imho that's sub-optimal. Does hit Skarm and Ferro tho)

Also Gear Grind does more than boosted Knock Off.

As for Togekiss, phazing is very much an effective means to stopping it since it can only set-up once. Not like it matters - Toge should only set-up once it can just clean-up / sweep because it can only set-up once basically.
 
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The only way you get in a situation where Roar / D-Tail + T-Wave Gyara loses to M-Scizor is if M-Scizor is the last Pokemon on their team, and if it is at worst you can rely on intimidate spam unless Gyarados is also your last mon. Not to mention you're situation is bias towards Scizor - you're assuming that Scizor can go that long without getting fully para'd once or twice. Sure you shouldn't argue hax, but if Scizor needs that many turns to beat Gyara it would be hax not getting at least 1 para, which at best just prolongs Scizor's game (and thus increase the chance of a crucial hax happening) or a crucial para happens (i.e Scizor ends up low and can't roost) and then it dies. This isn't even factoring the fact that you can also run Waterfall (on a defensive set it has merit because more PP + more reliable than Crabhammer), which gives Scizor even less chance to get out alive from that situation. Plus if you really want Gyara to beat Scizor you could run Fire Blast (although imho that's sub-optimal. Does hit Skarm and Ferro tho)

Also Gear Grind does more than boosted Knock Off.

As for Togekiss, phazing is very much an effective means to stopping it since it can only set-up once. Not like it matters - Toge should only set-up once it can just clean-up / sweep because it can only set-up once basically.
The point was to knock off its leftovers
 
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So for every ban we have made in this tier, the Pokemon sent out of the meta game is beyond a doubt broken. From everything ranging from Sylveon to Keldeo, Mega Metagross to Diggersby, each Pokemon has been broken and easily exploitable with what they are capable of. This is a statement of fact, and it is unintelligent to argue against. It is also true, however, that many broken things are left in the metagame, and that there will always be some left. A setup sweeper that's bulkier than the majority of the tier, features a move as strong STAB Giga Impact, and a better Dragon Dance? The fattest wall in the tier, has all the best support moves, and the ability to turn into a bulkier version of the opponent? A Pokemon that is essentially physical Darkrai, but has the added bonus of removing an opponents item, and a secondary typing that's one of the top attacking types? The point that I'm trying to make with all this, is that these bans are not going to make the tier completely rid of broken things, nor will they ever be able to. What they do is determine what power level we are comfortable with having in the metagame, and I think this is where the worry about a slippery slope comes in, because people are afraid the metagame is going to drop to a power level that is below where they think they can have fun at.

In terms of whether Scizorite should be banned, I personally think that it should. I think it's too versatile in what it does to reliably have one "go-to" counter, since it could always run some slight variation that makes that counter no longer work, or simply just muscle through dedicated walls with the sheer power of Technician Gear Grind, or outpace offense with the speed it accumulates through Shift Gear. I think that it should've been suspected near the beginning of XY, along with Mega Mawile, due to the amount of difficulty in revenge killing setup variants, as well as the sheer strength it has unboosted.

For the suspect process as a whole, while we may not have the time or manpower, I think that a better strategy for suspects and bans, to help determine where we want the power level of the metagame be, is to use a system more similar to UU rather than OU, where we ban all possible suspects immediately, then slowly reincorporate them into the meta through suspects, rather than ban each individually.
 
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