Super-Effectivemons

I've made a team for this if anyone's interested in testing this out on aqua.

Speaking of No Guard pokemon, Doublade gained some additional utility:

Dark Void, Taunt, Topsy Turvy, Sacred Fire, Precipice Blades, Thousand Waves.
While Sacred Fire hits harder, Doublade has a better burn chance with Inferno.
 
Victini @ Life Orb
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 29 HP
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Blue Flare
- Energy Ball / Focus Blast
- Psyshock / Glaciate

Simple special sweeper. Nasty Plot gives you great power. Blue Flare is your STAB move, 2HKOing most things that don't resist it at +2. Energy Ball hits bulky Water types; Focus Blast gets a stronger hit on Tyranitar and Heatran. Psyshock deals physical damage and also gets STAB; Glaciate lets you get past Dragons.
 

SpartanMalice

Y'all jokers must be crazy
Is it? Will-o-wisp allows you to pass King's Shield and has higher PP but Inferno causes chip damage (8% damage on Mew) and isn't affected by Taunt.
But then why do utility/stall Pokemon prefer Scald over Steam Eruption? I feel that PP makes a huge difference, and although I agree with the taunt analogy, I feel that relying on the 50/50 from Sacred Fire or the higher PP of Will-o-Wisp seems to be a better option, at least for Doublade.
 
But then why do utility/stall Pokemon prefer Scald over Steam Eruption? I feel that PP makes a huge difference, and although I agree with the taunt analogy, I feel that relying on the 50/50 from Sacred Fire or the higher PP of Will-o-Wisp seems to be a better option, at least for Doublade.
True, I just like rationalizing it. At the same time, ideally, Inferno won't be used THAT often unlike Scald. Since you only need to hit once to burn. I personally would prefer to hit with a more powerful move (Sacred Fire) and hope for the burn chance than Inferno but I just felt that there WAS a niche there.
 
Made a team myself, hanging on Aqua.

Some points cropping up in teambuilding/talking with people.

-Steelix, Excadrill, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Primal Groudon, Camerupt, Stunfisk (ha), Golem, and Rhyperior are the only Pokemon to get STAB Thousand Arrows. Note that Excadrill and Steelix combine with this Fire coverage: Thousand Arrows+Fire is perfect coverage, as only Bug and Grass resist Thousand Arrows and they're both weak to Fire.

-Several bulky Psychic types get Quiver Dance and Heal Order, which can allow them to setup and sweep with a Speed advantage with no Speed investment.

-Stored Power Latis with Quiver Dance or Geomancy is a thing. Yikes.

-Umbreon can run Defend Order+Heal Order+Tail Glow+Stored Power. Silly stuff.
 
I'm going to do a list of all the Pokemon that change types as they evolve or Mega Evolve such that it provides them advantage. Just changing type isn't good enough, it needs to be the case that the prior stage has weaknesses the later one doesn't. (Or the Mega Evolution has the base species doesn't) Butterfree, for instance, has all the weaknesses of Metapod anyway, so I'm excluding it.

Charizard: Carries forward Ground moves from Charmelion, and Charizardite X provides access to Dragon moves.

Steelix: Carries forward Grass and Steel moves from Onix.

Kingdra: Carries forward Grass and Electric moves from Seadra.

Bellosom: Carries forward Psychic moves from Gloom.

Eeveelutions: All carry forward Fighting moves from Eevee. (Well, except Glaceon and Umbreon whom get Fighting moves on their own merits)

Scizor: Carries forward Rock, Flying, Electric, and Ice moves from Scyther.

Pinsir: If holding Pinsirite, gains access to Rock, Electric, and Ice moves.

Gyarados: Carries forward Grass from Magikarp, and gains access to Bug, Fighting, and Fairy moves if holding Gyaradosite.

Ampharos: If holding Ampharosite, gains access to Dragon (Draco Meteor at last!), Ice (Boltbeam!), and Fairy moves.

Azumarill: Carries forward Steel moves from Azurill. Yes, Shift Gear Azumarill is viable.

Forretress: Carries forward Flying (Recovery!) and Rock moves from Pineco.

Tyranitar: Carries forward Ice moves from Pupitar.

Sceptile: If holding Sceptilite, picks up Dragon (Draco Meteor at last!) and Fairy moves.

Swampert: Carries forward Electric moves from Mudkip. Yes, I like Mudkip.

Gallade: Carries forward Steel and Poison moves from Kirlia.

Breloom: Carries forward Bug moves from Shroomish.

Ninjask, Shedinja: Carry forward Water and Ice moves from Nincada. (Just Water for Ninjask)

Probopass: Carries forward Grass and Steel moves from Nosepass.

Aggron: If holding Aggronite, picks up Fire moves.

Flygon: Carries forward Water and Grass moves from Trapinch.

Altaria: Carries forward Electric and Rock moves from Swablu, and Altarianite provides access to Steel and Poison moves.

Castform: Has simultaneous access to Fighting, Ground, Rock, Water, Electric, Grass, Steel, and Fire moves through its myriad forms.

Froslass: Carries forward Fighting moves from Snorunt.

Groudon: Red Orb provides access to Ground moves. (STAB Thousand Arrows on one of the bets Pokemon ever)

Torterra: Carries forward Poison moves from Grotle.

Blaziken: Carries forward Rock moves from Torchic.

Infernape: Carries forward Rock moves from Chimchar.

Emboar: Carries forward Rock moves from Tepig.

Empoleon: Carries forward Grass moves from Prinplup.

Wormadam: Carries forward Rock moves from Burmy (Sand Cloak, Trash Cloak), Flying moves from Burmy. (Trash Cloak)

Gastrodon: Carries forward Electric moves from Shellos.

Lopunny: If holding Lopunnite, picks up Flying, Psychic, and Fairy moves.

Lucario: Carries forward Flying, Psychic, and Fairy moves from Riolu.

Drapion: Carries forward Flying, Psychic, Fire, and Rock moves from Skorupi. (All while only having one weakness!)

Rotom: Has been covered. It's only missing 7 types.

Shaymin: Land Forme has Rock moves from Sky Forme, while Sky Forme has Bug moves from Land Forme.

Arceus: Has everything but Normal. Move aside Smeargle, God is here.

Excadrill: Carries forward Grass and Ice moves from Drilbur.

Audino: If holding Audinite, picks up Steel and Poison moves.

Seismitoad: Carries forward Electric moves from Tympole.

Darmanitan: If Ability is Zen Mode, picks up Dark and Ghost moves.

Escavalier: Carries forward Flying and Rock moves from Karrablast.

Meloetta: (If carrying Relic Song?) Picks up Flying, Fighting, Psychic, and Fairy moves from Pirouette Forme.

Chesnaught: Carries forward Bug moves from Quilladin. (Recovery!)

Talonflame: Carries forward Ice moves from Fletchling.

Pangoro: Carries forward Psychic moves from Pancham.

Dragalge: Carries forward Electric moves from Skrelp.

Hoopa: Confined picks up Bug moves from Unbound, while Unbound picks up Dark and Ghost moves from Confined.

Mewtwo: If holding Mewtonite X, picks up Flying and Fairy moves.

---

I think that should be everything. Might be derping on a Form change that changes types?
 
Prankster considerations of note.

Prankster Parting Shot, Topsy-Turvy: Meowstic-M, Mega Banette

Prankster Heart Swap (Among other Psychic shenanigans): Riolu

Prankster recovery: Added to Whimsicott, (Roost) Liepard (Heal Order) Riolu (Roost)

Prankster Haze (Bypasses Magic Bounce): Thundurus, Tornadus, Whimsicott, Murkrow

Prankster Lunar Dance: Riolu

Prankster Sleep: Added to Meowstic-F and Mega Banette (Dark Void)

Prankster Mirror Move: Whimsicott, Illumise, Volbeat

Prankster Defog: Whimsicott, Illumise, Volbeat

I'm sure I'm overlooking some stuff, but this is some of what leapt out at me.

---

Also it's occurred to me that Tyranitar+Sand Rush Excadrill is an amazing core: Tyranitar has gained Heal Order and U-Turn, allowing it to pop in over and over again while bringing in Excadrill (Or whoever) until the sweep happens, while Excadrill doesn't need anything beyond Thousand Arrows and V-Create to kill the entire meta. Doesn't even need Mold Breaker.

Honestly struggling to see myself voting for this as its literally just another metagame where everything becomes semi broken and hits stupidly hard
... I wouldn't be so quick to assume this is an offensive meta.

And don't post in a thread to just bash it.
 
Last edited:

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways


Starmie @ Leftovers / Focus Sash
Ability: Natural Cure
Evs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore
- Rapid Spin
- Parting Shot
- Scald / Psyshock

This evil little star is literally the bane of this metagame not named rotom-wash. Spore + Parting shot is incredible utility that comes on a mon with naturally high speed and rapid spin, allowing this to pave the way for a myriad of setup sweepers to reign supreme. Shift Gear Kyube, or Tail Glow Sceptile alike - this is a very important threat. Parting shot can guarantee a free turn of setup because you will automatically get a sweeper in on a set foe with -1 offenses; this is a huge boon for offensive teams. Any team that slaps on various sweepers becomes a major prowess, since combined, the appropriate one can set up on almost any threat at -1, allowing insane sweeping scenarios. This literally gives its switch-ins free turns, since between spore and parting shot, the opponent is completely forced to switch out and their switch-in has to tank parting shot and whatever you bring in that can set up. In a metagame with dangerous setup sweepers such as shift gear kyube, ttar, or mamoswine, tail glow sceptile, v-create serperior, and geomancy heatran, the utility provided by starmie is a godsend for offense. Use this thing.​
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
Starmie tends to lure in grass types (although I'm not sure how prevalent they'll be), wouldn't Dark Void be a better option? Of course there's the accuracy, and the fact that they have to fear Ice Beam, but once they realise you don't carry it they could be a threat.
Starmie also gets Voltturn if for some reason you'd prefer them over Parting shot.
 
In a metagame with dangerous setup sweepers such as shift gear kyube, ttar, or mamoswine, tail glow sceptile, v-create serperior, and geomancy heatran, the utility provided by starmie is a godsend for offense. Use this thing.
Geomancy Heatran? Since when was Heatran weak to fairy?
Nice Starmie set tho, that looks like a threat. Volturn teams appear to be pretty good due to the now wide distribution of them.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Geomancy Heatran? Since when was Heatran weak to fairy?
Nice Starmie set tho, that looks like a threat. Volturn teams appear to be pretty good due to the now wide distribution of them.
got just a little confused with resmons or something, lol. I was thinking sketchmons threats. Regardless, I think Geomancy Keldeo is even more threatening anyways.
 
Sableye murkrow and liepard are immune to psychic so only riolu gets lunar dance
Derp, was thinking of it as Fairy.

Edited.



Starmie @ Leftovers / Focus Sash
Ability: Natural Cure
Evs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore
- Rapid Spin
- Parting Shot
- Scald / Psyshock

This evil little star is literally the bane of this metagame not named rotom-wash. Spore + Parting shot is incredible utility that comes on a mon with naturally high speed and rapid spin, allowing this to pave the way for a myriad of setup sweepers to reign supreme. Shift Gear Kyube, or Tail Glow Sceptile alike - this is a very important threat. Parting shot can guarantee a free turn of setup because you will automatically get a sweeper in on a set foe with -1 offenses; this is a huge boon for offensive teams. Any team that slaps on various sweepers becomes a major prowess, since combined, the appropriate one can set up on almost any threat at -1, allowing insane sweeping scenarios. This literally gives its switch-ins free turns, since between spore and parting shot, the opponent is completely forced to switch out and their switch-in has to tank parting shot and whatever you bring in that can set up. In a metagame with dangerous setup sweepers such as shift gear kyube, ttar, or mamoswine, tail glow sceptile, v-create serperior, and geomancy heatran, the utility provided by starmie is a godsend for offense. Use this thing.​
Magic Bouncers laugh at it, Grass types aren't that impressed by that particular build, Sap Sipper Goodra (Whom picks up Moonlight!) can hard-stop it, and there's probably other stuff I'm missing.

Not saying it's bad, just saying I think you're overselling it.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Magic Bouncers that are non-mega consist of espeon and xatu, so early in the battle it won't be relevant. Grass types and sap sipper goodra don't mind spore, but parting shot is still great for giving other mons opportunities to set up. Psyshock will do decent damage (3hko) to typical bulky goodra as well, even with no investment.

Don't forget that the only decent switch-in to this, Serperior, is 2hko'd by uninvested ice beam after rocks. Other grass types mind parting shot, and some of them get destroyed by ice beam (hi mega sceptile). The last move can be almost anything, so grass types aren't a hard stop to this.

On another note, can we quickban Rotom-Wash? Heat will be a problem as well, but wash is literally unstoppable. I am running serperior AND mega sceptile and still can't beat this thing consistently because its just that fucking ridiculous. It's movepool is basically infinite with the combination of formes, which really makes no sense to me, and this thing overcentralizes the tier like no tomorrow. I mean seriously, a levitating electric/water type with all hazards, wisp, scald, and any utility move it wants is going to be ridiculous. It can hand pick move slots just to deal with things like mega sceptile, using ice beam or whatever, and sticky web is absolutely devastating, even if you have serperior, when it is usable at such a small opportunity cost.
 
Derp, was thinking of it as Fairy.

Edited.



Magic Bouncers laugh at it, Grass types aren't that impressed by that particular build, Sap Sipper Goodra (Whom picks up Moonlight!) can hard-stop it, and there's probably other stuff I'm missing.

Not saying it's bad, just saying I think you're overselling it.
The one nice thing about using Parting Shot on Magic Bouncers (particularly set-up Mega Sableye) is that it forces THEM out. Sure they can pick who they want to send, but it does something.
 

SpartanMalice

Y'all jokers must be crazy
Rotom-Wash seems like a necessary evil to me. This meta has no Shell Smash, Extremespeed, Fake Out, Boomburst abuse etc. Rotom-W does not have anything like Unaware and is not that ridiculously bulky like Cresselia and such are in other OMs. Sweepers will just run amok if this is the case.

I'd also include an alternative, all out offensive EV spread for the focus sash variant of that starmie - sure it deals with setup but if it's holding a sash, better to hit harder while you're at it, imo.

Dark Void is an option for both mons because despite the accuracy, the ability to put anything to sleep is a luxury that Spore doesn't offer. And then there's Machamp with Hypnosis which is interesting to say the least.
 
The one nice thing about using Parting Shot on Magic Bouncers (particularly set-up Mega Sableye) is that it forces THEM out. Sure they can pick who they want to send, but it does something.
I was in part alluding to reflecting Sleep. Starmie has Natural Cure of course, but it still neuters its attempt to clear the way for its buddy setup sweepers. Bouncing Parting Shot also opens the way for choices that Starmie might otherwise kill to come in and tank hits, setup themselves or just do damage or force-switch things or set hazards or whatever.

Magic Bouncers that are non-mega consist of espeon and xatu, so early in the battle it won't be relevant. Grass types and sap sipper goodra don't mind spore, but parting shot is still great for giving other mons opportunities to set up. Psyshock will do decent damage (3hko) to typical bulky goodra as well, even with no investment.
If a Mega Magic Bouncer leads, it having Magic Bounce is relevant from "early in the battle", specifically the beginning. I also didn't even think to bring up stuff like Prankster Misty Terrain (Sableye) which stops both Sleep and Scald's Burn chance, while Goodra has picked up recovery (Moonlight) and can OHKO Starmie with a max investment no-item-assistance Draco Meteor. If Starmie has no Life Orb (As in your set), Psyshock is incapable of 2HKOing Goodra with max HP investment.

Don't forget that the only decent switch-in to this, Serperior, is 2hko'd by uninvested ice beam after rocks. Other grass types mind parting shot, and some of them get destroyed by ice beam (hi mega sceptile). The last move can be almost anything, so grass types aren't a hard stop to this.
... Physically Defensive Mega Venusaur can actually switch in on a Psyshock. Celebi doesn't even need to invest in Special Defense for Ice Beam to be a 3HKO on it. And then it can Shadow Sneak Starmie. Or Pursuit it. Or U-Turn out after you hit it with Parting Shot. Ferrothorn laughs endlessly, and no, Starmie doesn't have Fire or Fighting moves to hit it with, and Ferrothorn doesn't even necessarily run attacking moves, or sometimes just runs Knock Off for the utility more than the damage. Specially Defensive Gourgeist-Super can tank an Ice Beam and laugh at Psyshock and STAB Shadow Sneak you -or Pursuit you. Specially Defensive Cradily laughs endlessly without even needing Sand support, and then it can U-Turn out if it wants, neutering your Parting Shot.

Many of these Grass types can be viable with few or no direct attacking moves and/or can hit Starmie before it even gets that Parting Shot out. (Or hit it with Pursuit, which is stronger on a switching opponent even after Parting Shot, bar STAB) Starmie can run Taunt to make the ones leaning on status moves junk, but it's so fragile that the risk that Ferrothorn just smacks it with Knock Off while being Taunted is enormous. You can run Dark Void instead, but then you'll miss at times, making it less matchup weak but less reliable.

The Grass and Electric moves Starmie picks up aren't any help against Grass types, while the Dark and Ghost moves it gains are only helpful against some Grass types. And even then, if Ice Beam can't take apart Celebi, Dark Pulse can't either except through getting lucky with Flinches -when, again, Celebi can hit you with priority.

Again: you're overselling this Starmie build and flat-out dismissing potential hard stops to the build, as if they can't exist, when they do. The vulnerability to now-widespread priority and Pursuit in particular is a problem for the build.

On another note, can we quickban Rotom-Wash? Heat will be a problem as well, but wash is literally unstoppable. I am running serperior AND mega sceptile and still can't beat this thing consistently because its just that fucking ridiculous. It's movepool is basically infinite with the combination of formes, which really makes no sense to me, and this thing overcentralizes the tier like no tomorrow. I mean seriously, a levitating electric/water type with all hazards, wisp, scald, and any utility move it wants is going to be ridiculous. It can hand pick move slots just to deal with things like mega sceptile, using ice beam or whatever, and sticky web is absolutely devastating, even if you have serperior, when it is usable at such a small opportunity cost.
I haven't seen it in action myself, and would like to do so. Have you tried using Excadrill? It doesn't even need Mold Breaker, just Thousand Arrows.

---

Dark Void Golurk! Could have a niche. With a Scarf it can even outrun a decent pool of stuff. Or you can just use it to put Skarmory to sleep, pave the way for Golurk to beat things up.
 
I was in part alluding to reflecting Sleep. Starmie has Natural Cure of course, but it still neuters its attempt to clear the way for its buddy setup sweepers. Bouncing Parting Shot also opens the way for choices that Starmie might otherwise kill to come in and tank hits, setup themselves or just do damage or force-switch things or set hazards or whatever.
Well, the positive thing is that it would be great at stopping a potential setup from occurring and Starmie can just use parting shot again if it wants to neuter the new opponent again (assuming it can take a hit from it and live)
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
If a Mega Magic Bouncer leads, it having Magic Bounce is relevant from "early in the battle", specifically the beginning. I also didn't even think to bring up stuff like Prankster Misty Terrain (Sableye) which stops both Sleep and Scald's Burn chance, while Goodra has picked up recovery (Moonlight) and can OHKO Starmie with a max investment no-item-assistance Draco Meteor. If Starmie has no Life Orb (As in your set), Psyshock is incapable of 2HKOing Goodra with max HP investment.

... Physically Defensive Mega Venusaur can actually switch in on a Psyshock. Celebi doesn't even need to invest in Special Defense for Ice Beam to be a 3HKO on it. And then it can Shadow Sneak Starmie. Or Pursuit it. Or U-Turn out after you hit it with Parting Shot. Ferrothorn laughs endlessly, and no, Starmie doesn't have Fire or Fighting moves to hit it with, and Ferrothorn doesn't even necessarily run attacking moves, or sometimes just runs Knock Off for the utility more than the damage. Specially Defensive Gourgeist-Super can tank an Ice Beam and laugh at Psyshock and STAB Shadow Sneak you -or Pursuit you. Specially Defensive Cradily laughs endlessly without even needing Sand support, and then it can U-Turn out if it wants, neutering your Parting Shot.

Many of these Grass types can be viable with few or no direct attacking moves and/or can hit Starmie before it even gets that Parting Shot out. (Or hit it with Pursuit, which is stronger on a switching opponent even after Parting Shot, bar STAB) Starmie can run Taunt to make the ones leaning on status moves junk, but it's so fragile that the risk that Ferrothorn just smacks it with Knock Off while being Taunted is enormous. You can run Dark Void instead, but then you'll miss at times, making it less matchup weak but less reliable.

The Grass and Electric moves Starmie picks up aren't any help against Grass types, while the Dark and Ghost moves it gains are only helpful against some Grass types. And even then, if Ice Beam can't take apart Celebi, Dark Pulse can't either except through getting lucky with Flinches -when, again, Celebi can hit you with priority.

Again: you're overselling this Starmie build and flat-out dismissing potential hard stops to the build, as if they can't exist, when they do. The vulnerability to now-widespread priority and Pursuit in particular is a problem for the build.

I haven't seen it in action myself, and would like to do so. Have you tried using Excadrill? It doesn't even need Mold Breaker, just Thousand Arrows.
The only mega magic bouncer that would likely lead would be mega diancie, which gets hit hard by scald. You also are forgetting that parting shot bounces back onto the user, forcing the opponent out.

Prankster Misty Terrain? Who would ever use that? No, don't even try to argue viability for it, since regular sableye is probably pretty bad to begin with even if you give it void, dbond, pshot, or topsy, let alone MISTY TERRAIN. You can say what you want, but it is absolutely NOT viable in the least.

Mega Venusaur and celebi would probably be uncommon and overpowered in this meta, since a lot of the mons they normally wall get the coverage to beat them. They both hate the uprising of oblivion wing, ice beam, and in the case of celebi, knock off. They certainly aren't misty terrain sableye bad, but they will probably struggle to keep up with the rest of the meta. Furthermore, both are setup bait for parting shot. That is the whole point of using parting shot as a pivot; it neuters the attacker that switches into starmie after it puts something to sleep, which in the case of venu and celebi, only means your switch-in has to come in on a -1 giga drain. Believe me, there are a LOT of sweepers that don't care about that.

What, Ferrothorn laughs at it? Parting shot to mega sceptile, set up a tail glow, hit in with fire blast / oblivion wing. Easy. You're forgetting that its not putting everything to sleep; its providing the team setup opportunities. By using parting shot on a mon with mediocre coverage/doesn't hit overly hard to begin with, you give setup opportunities to a myriad of threats that gain it.

I'm not even going to bother with gourgheist and...cradily? You are pulling up very uncommon mons in saying that they have potential to stop it, but all of them still become setup bait for the proper threat and this will provide an easy pivot to that mon. If you want to continue to argue your point then fine, but there is no point; you're grasping at straws with your argument and seem not to be comprehending Starmie's versatility against things that stop spore.
 
No, don't even try to argue viability for it, since regular sableye is probably pretty bad to begin with even if you give it void, dbond, pshot, or topsy
... so STABmons Sableye is bad now. What?

The only mega magic bouncer that would likely lead would be mega diancie, which gets hit hard by scald. You also are forgetting that parting shot bounces back onto the user, forcing the opponent out.
I see Mega Sableye lead quite often, and with good reason. Nor am I forgetting the Magic Bounce/Parting Shot point: Parting Shotting out the Magic Bouncer is still spending Starmie's PP and weakening its ability to smack any other checks you might want to bring in. It's not opening the way for your setup sweeper to come in, which is what it's supposed to be doing in this scenario. Priority abusers are in fact completely safe to come in, in this scenario.

Prankster Misty Terrain? Who would ever use that?
I'm waiting for an actual point.

Mega Venusaur and celebi would probably be uncommon and overpowered in this meta, since a lot of the mons they normally wall get the coverage to beat them. They both hate the uprising of oblivion wing, ice beam, and in the case of celebi, knock off. They certainly aren't misty terrain sableye bad, but they will probably struggle to keep up with the rest of the meta. Furthermore, both are setup bait for parting shot. That is the whole point of using parting shot as a pivot; it neuters the attacker that switches into starmie after it puts something to sleep, which in the case of venu and celebi, only means your switch-in has to come in on a -1 giga drain. Believe me, there are a LOT of sweepers that don't care about that.
... so wait Grass types are straight attackers that always care about Parting Shot. Weren't we talking about Super Effectivemons, rather than Inverse?

Lesse. For starters Mega Venusaur and Celebi both pick up moves for punishing setup sweepers, or turning things around on them. Mega Venusaur can outslow your mad-awesome Shift Gear thing or whatever and use Heart Swap to steal its boosts while dumping Parting Shot's minuses onto Starmie's buddy, while Celebi gains Topsy-Turvy. Which is Topsy-Turvy. Celebi also picks up Quiver Dance to mitigate the effects and make it a potentially threatening sweeper in general too, Dark Void to put your things to sleep, Will O Wisp to Burn Physical types (Making Specially Defensive variants more viable all around), or it can Parting Shot out of whatever just came in when Starmie Parting Shotted out, completely wasting your effort.

To be "setup bait for Parting Shot" a Pokemon needs to be unlikely to be a problem for what you switch in. You seem to be assuming these Grass types are running their Standard sets, instead of taking advantage of Super Effectivemons movepool gains.

You're also overestimating the relevancy of Oblivion Wing being spread around. It's added to Fighting types (Lucario and Keldeo are the only ones that care), Grass types (So... mirror match?), and Bug types. (Most of which are crap: Volcarona is one of the only ones worth noting) Shaymin-Sky is literally the only Pokemon to gain Oblivion Wing while having STAB on it and actually, you know, giving a crap in all the other relevant ways... and it's banned. (Well, I guess there's Yanmega, but the meta does it surprisingly little in the way of favors) As a coverage move, Oblivion Wing is only 80 BP. That's not some huge deal to Celebi, given it can already tank super effective coverage moves that are stronger than that, and the fact that it lets your setup sweeper heal while attacking is only helpful if you haven't been hit with Topsy-Turvy or something. And anything that gets Tail Glow or Quiver Dance with Oblivion Wing is a Grass type -so, Celebi itself. Who says you don't Parting Shot out, Celebi Tail Glows, and your setup sweeper dies to this setup sweeper?

What, Ferrothorn laughs at it? Parting shot to mega sceptile, set up a tail glow, hit in with fire blast / oblivion wing. Easy. You're forgetting that its not putting everything to sleep; its providing the team setup opportunities. By using parting shot on a mon with mediocre coverage/doesn't hit overly hard to begin with, you give setup opportunities to a myriad of threats that gain it.
-1 4 Atk Ferrothorn V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

OK. Note that this is Ferrothorn with no investment. Max investment, no Nature boost is a OHKO every time. Hell, Gyro Ball is already more than 50% (At -1 with no investment) against regular Sceptile. And Mega Sceptile. Ferrothorn doesn't even need to use Super Effectivemons moves to kill Mega Sceptile trying to setup like that. It just needs guts and an overconfident opponent.

Or Ferrothorn can run Circle Throw, disrupting your attempt reliably. And it has priority in the form of Mach Punch, to boot.

So yes, Ferrothorn laughs at Starmie.

And why isn't Sceptile running Blue Flare in your scenario? Or Eruption, if we're assuming Oblivion Wing and Giga Drain anyway.

I'm not even going to bother with gourgheist and...cradily? You are pulling up very uncommon mons in saying that they have potential to stop it, but all of them still become setup bait for the proper threat and this will provide an easy pivot to that mon. If you want to continue to argue your point then fine, but there is no point; you're grasping at straws with your argument and seem not to be comprehending Starmie's versatility against things that stop spore.
A year from now, there's going to be a new metagame, you're going to pretend the metagame is OU, and I'm going to, for the millionth time, tell you that the metagame is not OU and viability in OU is not the most important metric for viability in an OM, and to please stop acting like "meh it's underused in Standard/OMs in general" is any kind of argument at all. And then I'll have to repeat it three times to the other people in the thread.

Cradily has picked up King's Shield, Circle Throw, Secret Sword for Special variants wanting to screw over Chansey, U-Turn, Quiver Dance, Sticky Web, Haze, and if it cares about priority Ice Shard and Bullet Punch. It's already a decent 'mon, and it's gotten tools it actually cares about. Setup variants of it can fuck over phazing attempts by running Suction Cups, too, which is a noteworthy niche when you have Quiver Dance and recovery. Your other options being Octillery (Still no real setup) and Malamar. (Not likely, with its awful typing and fragility)

Gourgeist has picked up reliable recovery in the form of Roost, the lack of which has always been one of its big flaws, and has been granted Fire coverage for Steel types, which were another nuisance to it. Not to mention Grass types that are immune to its Leech Seed. Smaller boosts, but Gourgeist is pretty solid without recovery in Standard, so it doesn't necessarily need a lot. Oh, and it gets Insomnia if I went to be an extra jerk and pretend you acknowledged the possibility of running Dark Void, so it can be a hard stop to even that. And it still gets super effective priority and Pursuit if you switch and it can be potentially running Topsy-Turvy for your awesome setup sweeper.

---

In summary: Starmie is a neat gimmick, but you are overselling it and underestimating its counters for literally no reason. You've made no effort to actually think about what the counters I named can do, and are instead pretending they're magically helpless in the face of Starmie, because...?

I'm especially annoyed with you yammering on about Oblivion Wing hurting Celebi and playing up setup sweepers while ignoring that Celebi has Tail Glow or Quiver Dance and Oblivion Wing if it wants them. "Celebi is shit because these things exist that it can take advantage of!" is just the most bizarre argument.
 
I'm really liking Mega Venusaur in this metagame: Will-o-Wisp, more reliable recovery in Roost, Defog, Heart Swap, Healing Wish, Haze, and probably much more I'm not thinking of.

Also, Leech Seed Suicune sounds horrible.

Magnezone/ton can now run Secret Sword, Blue Flare, AND Earth Power if it wishes!
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top