Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

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Anyone here tried band kartana it's been working well for me with knock off being able to weaken things like zap and celest and fighting/steel/grass coverage isn't that bad it really hurts if you can get the predictions right on it
I've honestly liked Kartana a lot since the release of SM. Though I generally don't like choice items with knock off. I feel Kartana has more versatility then people give it credit for, more so with new USUMO moves. Multiple sets for Wallbreaking (ChoiceB/Z) Sweeping (SD) and Cleaning (ChoiceS) and beast boost can allow you to get a good snowball going.

My main problem is it's two base speed points shy of being an S tier threat. Its out speeded by most mons on hyper offense and too easily walled on defensively inclined and stall teams. That being said I've ripped through plenty of Bulky offense with this thing once it's checks are gone.

It's weakness to fighting and fire really hurt this guy theyre always carried as coverage on mons even if you face a team without any of these types against you.

Plus you have every Naga set with Fire/thrower so it's really not useful at the moment with that damn thing and it's damn speed beast boost.
 
I am wondering if Choice Scarf set for Garchomp might become more popular with the rise of Naganadel. It can switch into its if you know it' not going to use a Dragon move and take defeat it with Earthquake/Outrage . It is also useful for revenge killing other strong offensive threats in the metagame like Tapu Koko, MegaZardX after one Dragon Dance boost, Kartana with Fire Fang/Fire Blast and Zeraora with HP ice
 
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I am wondering if Choice Scarf set for Garchomp might become more popular with the rise of Naganadel. It can switch into its if you know it' not going to use a Dragon move and take defeat it with Earthquake/Outrage . It is also useful for revenge killing other strong offensive metagame threats like Tapu Koko, MegaZardX after one Dragon Dance boost, Kartana with Fire Fang/Fire Blast and HP Zeraora barring HP ice
Zeroara is not released and thus cannot be used and zard x rarely utilizes DD anymore
 

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Now that Naganadel is gone, how will the metagame develop? I think AV Tar will definitely drop, it was a niche pick for Naganadel checking. As such, maybe Blacephalon might see more use since AV tar was its worst enemy? (Sorry for theorymoning)
Some minor speculation is probably fine so long as we do not take it too far. However, with this thread, I cannot trust anyone really seeing as how posts have been so mediocre so far, so yea let's try to keep the theorymon to a minimum.

With that said, I very much agree with what you -- AV Tar will no longer be used much, but I can see Banded Tyranitar pick up in usage in the coming weeks as it still is quite good. Blacephalon will finally get its true test as an OU Pokemon seeing as it now does not face rivalry for the spotlight of "new toy" in the tier from Naganadel and I think it will turn out to be relatively good, seeing as it was decent already and now there will be less common counterplay due to the clear overlap with Naganandel in terms of defensive counterplay. I also think that things like Latios will start to pop up moreso than it did before seeing as Scarf Latios was no longer as valid as it was during later SM with Beast Boost Naganadel running around and it seemed to be a popular addition to teams beforehand, even if it was never truly a 'great' set and just a product of role compression. On top of them, I expect to see more bulky/balanced teams than before when the tier had a lot of cheese and offensive teams running around, which could be nice to balance out the tier so long as we do not reach a point where Toxapex runs the tier again .__.
 
Marzbar

Defog has been used as a filler for Scarf Kartana as you get the defog off on a forced switch, probably not something to do on a Swords Dance set though.
This isn't entirely true, this is a Kartana set I've had a degree of success with in the past. It's not anything revolutionary or amazing but it does offer fantastic role compression for teams that could appreciate Defog but don't absolutely NEED it.


Kartana @ Darkinium-Z
Jolly - Beast Boost
252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 Spe
-Leaf Blade
-Night Slash
-Swords Dance
-Defog


Leaf Blade + Z-Night Slash actually gets surprisingly good coverage and blows back some of Kartana's usual checks like Zapdos and MCY. Plus, BHE only needs a bit of chip to power through a lot of Z-Sacred Sword's targets like Heatran and Steela. This frees up a moveslot for Defog, giving offensive teams a degree of role compression. It's not the most reliable fogger and it's not the most optimal sweeper, but for teams that need a bit of both it certainly is an option.​
 
I don't see Toxapex being the king of OU anymore (sure, it's an oustanding mon, even more with Knock Off), taking in account the Defog buff and the prevalence of massive offensive presence against it. Toxic Spikes is much easier to remove now and mons like Specs Clown can explode it with little prior damage, without mentioning old threats that scare it already. I can be wrong, but I don't see it dominating the tier like in SM
 


With Naga out of the tier, Ttar will start to see less usage, which will give Blacephalon a lot more breathing room in the tier, which is pretty cool cus I love that clown.

Sand offense is going to lose a lot the usage it had gained this past week (which is a shame, I was just making a team with Naga+Mega Zam to deal with Weather). Scarf Gren is also another thing that will stop being as effective without Naga in the tier

Toxapex now can run Toxic Spikes much more often than before, without worrying about a Living nuke that cleans them just by switching in.

Latios (and Mega Latios) not only has lost a check in Naganadel, but with the things that check Naganadel being not being as used common as before (Weavile, AV Ttar) is going to start to shine a bit more

Also, rip any chance of Empoleon being any viable in OU ever again. Come back when you get Slack Off or something idk
 
R.I.P. Empoleon, please get a recovery move soon so that I'm not laughed at for using you in OU.

Anyways

Blacephalon @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Psychic / Explosion

This is a pseudo attacking / pseudo utility set I've been running on a few teams that's actually been putting in some work, everyone seems to forget that Blace has a base 127 physical attack stat, so running a mixed set is viable and Knock Off can provide a nasty shock to Pokemon like Eviolite Chansey who want to switch in thinking they can sponge hits.
 
thank god that naga was banned so we can finally stop that discussion. with this being gone, it got me thinking about another mon that hasn't been seeing much usage: garchomp. i wonder if it's gonna be good. on the one hand, it pressure toxapex extremely hard which people are predicting will run the tier as well as having options like firium z fire fang for steels, waterium z aqua tail for steels, (which isn't that good but worth mentioning) and dragonium or groundium z for just a nuke. on the other hand, it's speed tier is slightly underwhelming with the recent speed creep and it can't cover everything it wants to hit in one set.
also, i think pretty much every choiced blacephalon set should use psyshock to hit things like mantine and chansey which would otherwise wall them
 
I don't see any reason not to run Defensive Ttar around for Pursuit Trapping and being able to deal with Blace. It is not like it is only good against Naga
(It is just that I can either use Mtar or Band).

About Blace: Super annoying about it is that Mind Blown is super accurate and "reliable" and that it gets Will-o-Wisp to cripple some common switch-ins(and Knock Off obviously)
 
Just to put this out there since now you can run a good and proper TTar for a Sandstorm set, dirty Gliscor is dirty.
I've been playing around with the EV's a bit but the set,
Poison Heal / toxic Orb
- Defog
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Protect
and I've been running a set Careful with 252hp, 184 SpeDef, 72 Speed. It's been a fun little set, probably not optimal but it can cripple teams pretty hard.
**note** I know this isn't probably what is the actual OU set, you probably run a different EV spread with EQ and probably not a toxic stall, but this is a nasty little set since people don't run a lot of ice right now I've noticed.
 
Blace is really quite good, especially now that AV Tar and Spd Heatran useage will go down because of the Naga ban. I think the long term placement of it will be similar to Kartana if a bit worse because it has hard counters. I really enjoy the Sub CM Ghostium set, which puts in a lot of work against balance and lets you dodge toxic from Chansey. Its a fundementally matchup based mon that will either put in a ton of work or just be used as death fodder.


There are also a ton of non-conventional teams running around right now (webs, veil, TR and rain) which are really quite difficult to cover entirely with a normal BO or balance team. Cheese/Gimmicks are super common at the beginning of each gen but I’d say that USUM is more matchup based than SM; there’s just so many threats to account for with 6 mons and 24 moves.
 
I don't see Toxapex being the king of OU anymore (sure, it's an oustanding mon, even more with Knock Off), taking in account the Defog buff and the prevalence of massive offensive presence against it. Toxic Spikes is much easier to remove now and mons like Specs Clown can explode it with little prior damage, without mentioning old threats that scare it already. I can be wrong, but I don't see it dominating the tier like in SM
Out of all the new Defoggers, the one I could see giving it the most trouble is Gliscor: it doesn’t care about being poisoned thanks to Poison Heal, it doesn’t mind having its Toxic Orb knocked off once Poison Heal is triggered, can Roost away any chip damage caused by Scald/Knock Off, can deal supereffective damage with Earthquake or even lock Recover through Taunt.

Gliscor was one of my favorite Pokémon to use back in XY/ORAS, so I’m hyped at the idea of being able to use it once again even if Landorus-T still counters/mostly outclasses it, unfortunately.
 
People keep talking about this defog buff.. but all the mons that got defog are pretty fucking bad / have no business using defog (tapu koko etc.)

  • Rotom-W is ass because it can't even do anything to Toxapex, and because grass types are used in gen 7 like they weren't before (Bulu, Kartana, etc.) . Also it gets fucked by ground types to a degree because of Excadrill and Zygarde. Also burn does so little this gen, and talonflame is gone.
  • Gliscor is just bad because it doesn't do anything except fire off pitifully weak earthquake and defog. Needs like 6 moves to function, EQ, defog, roost are basically non negotiable. No matter what you run in last slot (taunt, toxic, ice fang, or whatever else) you will always be pretty passive and lose to a ton of stuff. I honestly feel like I'd rather use swords dance Gliscor than defog at this point. Power creep destroyed Gliscor, it's kind of frail for a "wall" now.
  • Torn-T really needs more than four moves, can't see sacrificing one to defog. Also can't run defog on bulky pivot AV, and defog on LO wallbreaker is dumb.
  • Serperior might be the best new defogger, I guess you could use leaf storm hp fire Z dragon pulse/hyper beam with defog reasonably well, especially since Naganadel is gone now. Seems like a niche thing for teams that need hazards removed for Volcarona or something though.
  • Defog Lando-T is alright, but nothing game breaking or even that important.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
While people are talking about Blacephalon, I would like to discuss Stakataka's future for a moment.

The death of Naganadel has been a mixed bag for the unfunny Trump meme. On one hand, Tyranitar and Heatran dropping in usage along with Latios and Kyurem-Black rising back up means that Stakataka will have more potential set-up opportunities. Since Tyranitar's likely gonna drop off quite a bit, I expect that Fighting types/Fighting coverage will drop off with it (E.G. Low Kick Weavile), giving Stakataka even more freedom. But on the other hand, Toxapex, Gliscor and non-choice locked into Ice Beam Greninja coming back gives it more trouble.

I would also like to point out some really good partners for Stakataka.


While these Pokemon don't compliment each other that well in terms of type synergy, Tyranitar's Sand support is really helpful for OTR Stakataka. The Sand SpDef boost allows Stakataka to set up on Blacephalon, Tapu Koko, Volcarona, Special Hoopa-U and even Magnezone that much better.


If you wanna make a Trick Room team, try using this core for setting. Cresselia and Stakataka complement each other super well: Stakataka can take on Knock Offs and Bug moves, while Cresselia is immune to Ground moves and eats up Fighting attacks. Not invincible, but still noteworthy.
 
People keep talking about this defog buff.. but all the mons that got defog are pretty fucking bad / have no business using defog (tapu koko etc.)

  • Rotom-W is ass because it can't even do anything to Toxapex, and because grass types are used in gen 7 like they weren't before (Bulu, Kartana, etc.) . Also it gets fucked by ground types to a degree because of Excadrill and Zygarde. Also burn does so little this gen, and talonflame is gone.
  • Gliscor is just bad because it doesn't do anything except fire off pitifully weak earthquake and defog. Needs like 6 moves to function, EQ, defog, roost are basically non negotiable. No matter what you run in last slot (taunt, toxic, ice fang, or whatever else) you will always be pretty passive and lose to a ton of stuff. I honestly feel like I'd rather use swords dance Gliscor than defog at this point. Power creep destroyed Gliscor, it's kind of frail for a "wall" now.
  • Torn-T really needs more than four moves, can't see sacrificing one to defog. Also can't run defog on bulky pivot AV, and defog on LO wallbreaker is dumb.
  • Serperior might be the best new defogger, I guess you could use leaf storm hp fire Z dragon pulse/hyper beam with defog reasonably well, especially since Naganadel is gone now. Seems like a niche thing for teams that need hazards removed for Volcarona or something though.
  • Defog Lando-T is alright, but nothing game breaking or even that important.
Could you elaborate on why you find Rotom wash terrible? I understand that it does face competition for bulky water types, but having one that isn’t a momentum drain and a real ground immunity is awesome. Also none of those grass types are reliable switching because of will-o-wisp. And while Talonflame is dead, Rotom Wash does check Mega Swampert and Hawlucha, as well as Mega Pinsir, which are better and/or more relevant this gen. Rotom also loses to zygarde, But Rotom has enough offensive presence as well as wisp to prevent it from switching in, and mold breaker Excadrill is something you really find on HO, which has gone down in usage.
 
Praise jesus the poison demon has been finally banished from OU, lets all be friends again? Can't wait for the new meta to actually start taking shape.

While people are talking about Blacephalon, I would like to discuss Stakataka's future for a moment.

The death of Naganadel has been a mixed bag for the unfunny Trump meme. On one hand, Tyranitar and Heatran dropping in usage along with Latios and Kyurem-Black rising back up means that Stakataka will have more potential set-up opportunities. Since Tyranitar's likely gonna drop off quite a bit, I expect that Fighting types/Fighting coverage will drop off with it (E.G. Low Kick Weavile), giving Stakataka even more freedom. But on the other hand, Toxapex, Gliscor and non-choice locked into Ice Beam Greninja coming back gives it more trouble.

I would also like to point out some really good partners for Stakataka.


While these Pokemon don't compliment each other that well in terms of type synergy, Tyranitar's Sand support is really helpful for OTR Stakataka. The Sand SpDef boost allows Stakataka to set up on Blacephalon, Tapu Koko, Volcarona, Special Hoopa-U and even Magnezone that much better.


If you wanna make a Trick Room team, try using this core for setting. Cresselia and Stakataka complement each other super well: Stakataka can take on Knock Offs and Bug moves, while Cresselia is immune to Ground moves and eats up Fighting attacks. Not invincible, but still noteworthy.
I'm definitely going to be trying Stakataka on OTR, the sandstorm synergy is nice but even if fighting prevalence drops off theres going to be someone with at the very least Focus Blast on every team, more likely Superpower/Close Combat so having 2 mons 4x weak is always going mean the team will have t heavily compensate. I am very optimistic about the Cressilia core though no extreme weakness jumps out to me.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Praise jesus the poison demon has been finally banished from OU, lets all be friends again? Can't wait for the new meta to actually start taking shape.



I'm definitely going to be trying Stakataka on OTR, the sandstorm synergy is nice but even if fighting prevalence drops off theres going to be someone with at the very least Focus Blast on every team, more likely Superpower/Close Combat so having 2 mons 4x weak is always going mean the team will have t heavily compensate. I am very optimistic about the Cressilia core though no extreme weakness jumps out to me.
The Cresstaka core as I like to call it is threatened by Specs Greninja, Specs Blacephalon, Low Kick Weavile, Band Tyranitar with EQ and Air Balloon Heatran.
 
some thoughts after a day in a naganadel less meta
  • blacephalon needs to be wary of certain threats that completely wall it like tyranitar, but it is still such a fantastic pokemon to use. the sub z-move set is really fantastic and fucks up a lot of teams just by the sheer surprise factor and works really great as a choice bluff. not even heatran can check it properly, specially if it has boosts due to cm or beast boost. it also completely fucks stall teams in the ass after sableye is gone. the fact that tyranitar is probably going to drop in usage helps this thing a ton as well. im really excited to see the meta develops around this thing.
  • stakataka is already popularizing trick room teams because its fucking strong, and while its typing is defensively atrocious, the strongest gyro ball in the game alongside continental crush backed up by 131 base stat attack is pretty hard to wall in a single slot. its too bad that it gets bodied by water shuriken and that it is hard to find the perfect moment to sweep, but once it does, it is pretty much unstoppable.
  • i dont think the ridiculous distribution of defog has been noteworthy, to be honest. most of the things that get it like gliscor, lando-t and tornadus-t cannot afford to lose offensive presence or utility over losing hazards. i guess it is a great addition to rotom's arsenal but it is such a mediocre pokemon in the metagame atm because it doesnt wall anything noteworthy and the presence of grass types really hurt it. i guess serperior benefits the most from it mainly because its movepool is completely tragic to begin with.
  • webs offense is super good, with great pokemon to abuse them like blacephalon, megacham and kartana, with the offensive support of protean greninja who basically kills almost all of the flying-types/levitators running around the meta atm. ribombee is a fast setter and araquanid is great as well, but i think shuckle is the best setter atm, because it has cool options like encore, final gambit and even knock off and it is also able to set rocks up, so its like a no brainer for full webs offense. it is also prety hard to kill due to its ridiculous defensive stats so getting at least one hazard is super easy.
 
So really looking at the most competitely relevant Mona that get Defog already suffer from 4MSS and would be hardpressed to sacrifice coverage or utility for it.. It seems that Tapu Fini may not suffer too much . Plus Misty Surge s still amazing to support physical offensive mons that would normally be crippled by burns and paralysis.
Kartana, Garchomp, Scizor, M-Gyrados to name a few


Now if only Tapu Fini had an actual real recovery move.
 
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Cool, Naga is gone. Now can we stop trying to sweep the Landorus issue under the rug?

Or is he still being protected?
Landog will continue to be protected until the pro-ban side can present reasonable evidence to ban him. Simply saying too good or too common is insufficient. You'd probably be better off talking about how he negatively affects the meta, of which no pro-ban advocate has done yet.
 
Sigh. . . "Protected".

I'm getting tired of this "hurr durr, they want to protect stall/Landorus T/balance/Offense/whatever the fuck is hated by a fringe portion of the community at the time" nonsense.

There's nothing wrong with Landorus-T, no one is shielding their precious Pokemon from the big bad people that want it banned. It isn't broken, it isn't overcentralizing, and it has reliable checks/counters that don't restrict team building.

I get it, it's extremely prominent in the meta, why people think that is a bad thing is beyond me, but there's nothing wrong with it to warrant a ban or suspect, at least not yet.
 
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