Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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To be honest don't even bother discussing unranked mons in this thread, the mods will immediately just shut you down without listening to any reason and threaten to put the mon on the blacklist if u talk any further about it and will infract you or ridicule u similarly to the first two times unranked mons were mentioned (florges and roserade) even if they are better than the mons in c- (talonflame seriously? U don't want to rank unviable mons but u rank talonflame?) or even if they support of it being ranked

Unless it was used in a big tour, snake or by some popular player like njnp or something the mons ur suggesting will never get ranked (like how using mega latios was considered a meme until it actually had success in some famous game or w/e, only then it got ranked)
"I think it's fine to talk about Unranked Pokemon potentially being ranked, but you definitely need solid replays to back up your claim, as it says in the OP."

Lycanroc-Dusk is a new addition to the meta, not just to OU. Discussing it as a new USUM mon only makes sense as it's fresh. I don't understand why you wouldn't discuss unranked mons as this is a viability ranking thread. Of course if you toss around Pokemon around like it means nothing, then yeah it's not worth bringing up; but if they have the capacity and potential to be discussed solidified with decent argumentations, then you have yourself a winner.

I won't be pushing the envelope however with this mon, but I'll leave that out there. :x
 
To be honest don't even bother discussing unranked mons in this thread, the mods will immediately just shut you down without listening to any reason and threaten to put the mon on the blacklist if u talk any further about it and will infract you or ridicule u similarly to the first two times unranked mons were mentioned (florges and roserade) even if they are better than the mons in c- (talonflame seriously? U don't want to rank unviable mons but u rank talonflame?) or even if the mon nom had support of being ranked

Unless it was used in a big tour, snake or by some popular player like njnp or something the mons ur suggesting will never get ranked (like how using mega latios was considered a meme until it actually had success in some famous game or w/e, only then it got ranked)
That's still no reason to stop trying, though. As long as you post your nomination for an unranked/"joke" pokemon along some good replays (preferably above the 1500s) and you don't keep spamming the same post over and over again, you should be fine.

But yeah, kinda dissapointed that sneks/tours/whatever-you-call them are what's being used for ranking stuff nowadays. If mods are gonna be constantly spamming "stop talking about x pokemon or we'll blacklist it", then they might as well post the whole list of blacklisted pokes already so they stop giving false hope to people and stuff.
 
To be honest don't even bother discussing unranked mons in this thread, the mods will immediately just shut you down without listening to any reason and threaten to put the mon on the blacklist if u talk any further about it and will infract you or ridicule u similarly to the first two times unranked mons were mentioned (florges and roserade) even if they are better than the mons in c- (talonflame seriously? U don't want to rank unviable mons but u rank talonflame?) or even if the mon nom had support of being ranked

Unless it was used in a big tour, snake or by some popular player like njnp or something the mons ur suggesting will never get ranked (like how using mega latios was considered a meme until it actually had success in some famous game or w/e, only then it got ranked)
If you want an unranked, seemingly unviable Pokemon to be given a spot on the viability rankings, do something with it and succeed at a high level first. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
To be honest don't even bother discussing unranked mons in this thread, the mods will immediately just shut you down without listening to any reason and threaten to put the mon on the blacklist if u talk any further about it and will infract you or ridicule u similarly to the first two times unranked mons were mentioned (florges and roserade) even if they are better than the mons in c- (talonflame seriously? U don't want to rank unviable mons but u rank talonflame?) or even if the mon nom had support of being ranked

Unless it was used in a big tour, snake or by some popular player like njnp or something the mons ur suggesting will never get ranked (like how using mega latios was considered a meme until it actually had success in some famous game or w/e, only then it got ranked)
You know what else I love? I love it when people suggest that there's some kind of big conspiracy / circle-jerk going on among the Smogon moderators where the only opinions that matter are the ones of those who are in the royal clique.

As the person who originally suggested ranking Florges, I know look back and see perfectly well why it was rejected. It can only beat one relevant hazard setter, is total Steel food, gets cucked by just about any physical attacker, and has a pretty bad case of 4MSS. If it were to be ranked, it would not go above C-. You know why people place so much emphasis on tours when making nominations? Because the participants in tours are generally experienced players who have expert knowledge of the metagame. So if a tour player can use something that was once considered unviable garbage and make it work well, that clearly means they must be on to something.

Can we just cut it with this "us v.s. them" mentality? We're talking about OU Council Members, not Washington CEOs and lobbyists. I've been seeing more and more of this stupid narrative where people believe that, because respected community members doubt the effectiveness of unranked Pokemon, they're somehow oppressing the playerbase or whatever. This is honestly one of the most pathetic mentalities I've ever seen.
 

Gary

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To be honest don't even bother discussing unranked mons in this thread, the mods will immediately just shut you down without listening to any reason and threaten to put the mon on the blacklist if u talk any further about it and will infract you or ridicule u similarly to the first two times unranked mons were mentioned (florges and roserade) even if they are better than the mons in c- (talonflame seriously? U don't want to rank unviable mons but u rank talonflame?) or even if the mon nom had support of being ranked

Unless it was used in a big tour, snake or by some popular player like njnp or something the mons ur suggesting will never get ranked (like how using mega latios was considered a meme until it actually had success in some famous game or w/e, only then it got ranked)
That's still no reason to stop trying, though. As long as you post your nomination for an unranked/"joke" pokemon along some good replays (preferably above the 1500s) and you don't keep spamming the same post over and over again, you should be fine.

But yeah, kinda dissapointed that sneks/tours/whatever-you-call them are what's being used for ranking stuff nowadays. If mods are gonna be constantly spamming "stop talking about x pokemon or we'll blacklist it", then they might as well post the whole list of blacklisted pokes already so they stop giving false hope to people and stuff.
Yeah except the issue is a huge majority of people that post for unranked Pokemon choose not to actually follow the simple rules of the thread. Most of the time they just post a wall of calcs most of which are irrelevant and instead of trying to actually explain their niche, they just show its match up vs the A rank Pokemon or some shit. Also instead of exaggerating to try and get people to take your word for it, considering you claim that you posted around the time Pokemon got blacklisted, you should know all of them had VERY good reasoning to be put on that list. They were brought up countless of times by people who clearly had no clue how to back up their claims outside of calcs, and it always ended it like 5 people arguing against one extremely stubborn person who refused to give up despite being proven wrong time after time. Yeah blacklisting a Pokemon for those reasons is perfectly justified, I'm sorry if you disagree, but you're not the one trying to keep the thread in line.

As you can see, the guy went out of his way to explain why Lycanroc Dusk should be ranked. He posted replays, explained its niche, and even went as far to list a sample set for it instead of just forcing us to fill in the blanks ourselves. That's what you are SUPPOSED TO DO. The reason why it seems like previously unranked/niche Pokemon get ranked only because of high level tour play is because, well, those are in fact by far the best kind of replays available to judge a Pokemon's niche. It's just VERY rare someone actually comes on here and make a very good and solid claim for a Pokemon to be ranked, outside of just posting calcs or irrelevant replays of someone completely choking the win away or the unranked Pokemon barely doing anything.

If we allowed anyone to just freely talk about Unranked Pokemon without really putting a lot of effort into their posts, then the thread would actually be a huge mess, more than it already is. Don't try to create some "corrupted Mods" conspiracy just because you aren't allowed to half ass your UR nominations. Lycanroc Dusk will be considered for a rank, and I will make sure no "corrupt" mod tries to step in and end discussion on it unless it starts to get dumb.
 
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Mantine B+ --> B

I know BladeOfFriendship nominated Mantine down a while ago back in SM, but I really think this thing needs to drop. Charizard Y + Duggy isn't a thing anymore ever since Arena Trap got the boot. Ever since USUM dropped, many new Pokemon got Defog, giving Mantine more competition for the role. Because of this, Toxapex is now seen more commonly running Toxic over Toxic Spikes as it can now 1v1 Pokemon such as Mantine and Rotom that would usually Defog Toxic Spikes away.

Choice Band variants of Tyranitar are also on the rise, and gives Mantine even more trouble trying to Defog hazards away. Rotom Wash is now more relevant than before, which can threaten Mantine out with a Volt Switch while also switching into it for free and giving it more competition as a Defogger. I think this Pokemon is still cool as a Defogger, checking Ash Greninja, Kingdra and Mega Swampert, but the new influx of Defoggers and Choice Band Tyranitar becoming more popular just gives Mantine a lot more trouble and competition as a Defogger.
Ghost Cream
So I did nominate Mantine down earlier, but since then I have completely changed my opinion. Mantine is actually super nice on a lot of bulkier builds that need toxapex and a defogger but can’t afford to run both. Zard Y balance has been dead for a while right now, so this isn’t exactly a point against it. Rotom Wash is also easy to switch into for a lot of the builds that Mantine fits on through bulky grass types.
Choice Band Ttar can’t really switch into mantine, as Scald does a decent chunk and can cripple it through burns. Mantine can also Wall Blacephalon, something Toxapex fails to do. I think Mantine should stay where it is as it is decently splashable and fits on a lot more teams than the b ranked mons and even some b+ mons.
 
I nomimate Alolan-Ninetales should drop to C+ to C

The influx of new Defog users made Aurora Veil a lot less viable. and it stuggles to even set it up safely in a meta where Steel and Fire types like M-Scizor, Heatran, Kartana and Blacepeon are very common. It really stuggles to have much revleance now in OU


Well to say one good thing about it It makes a pretty effective counter to rain teams. Replacing rain with its hail and Freeze Dry hitting common Rain Team mons like Pelipper, Mantine, M-Swampert and Kingdra all for 4X damage .
 
I dont think Mantine should drop, Ive been trying out Sub-Mantine, and it can completely mess up teams. Especially once you start with sub, and can defog anything trying to set up on you, and you get free damage, and of course get a chance to burn with scald. Also Using sub+defog completely shuts down toxapex, with water absorb, toxapex can't do anything to it. While getting free damage. So I disagree with the drop.

Forgot to mention to, it if you play vs rain teams, it completely messes them up. And Its mega swampert nightmare.
 
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Marigold

formerly KuraiTenshi26
I've been seeing a lot of posts about "defog influx" making something less viable, but it's important to consider what defoggers actually hurt the pokemon you're using this reason against.
I nomimate Alolan-Ninetales should drop to C+ to C

The influx of new Defog users made Aurora Veil a lot less viable. and it stuggles to even set it up safely in a meta where Steel and Fire types like M-Scizor, Heatran, Kartana and Blacepeon are very common. It really stuggles to have much revleance now in OU


Well to say one good thing about it It makes a pretty effective counter to rain teams. Replacing rain with its hail and Freeze Dry hitting common Rain Team mons like Pelipper, Mantine, M-Swampert and Kingdra all for 4X damage .
I disagree with the reasoning behind this drop. What are the new OU-relevant defoggers that beat Ninetales-A we're speaking of? Rotom-W gets smacked by freeze dry, Lando-T and Gliscor are quad-weak to ice attacks. "Defog influx" doesn't mean anything towards Ninetales-A.

Veil has had a variety of anti-leads and switch-ins to steel types, fire types, and every threat to veil anyway (Zygarde, Manaphy, Zard X, Suicune, Tyranitar-M, Magearna, etc). So nothing has changed there either.

Veil has definitely lost a ton of popularity since the OLT era (on ladder at least), but if a nomination were to be made to move down its main setter, this isn't the reasoning to go about it.
 
I've been seeing a lot of posts about "defog influx" making something less viable, but it's important to consider what defoggers actually hurt the pokemon you're using this reason against.

I disagree with the reasoning behind this drop. What are the new OU-relevant defoggers that beat Ninetales-A we're speaking of? Rotom-W gets smacked by freeze dry, Lando-T and Gliscor are quad-weak to ice attacks. "Defog influx" doesn't mean anything towards Ninetales-A.

Veil has had a variety of anti-leads and switch-ins to steel types, fire types, and every threat to veil anyway (Zygarde, Manaphy, Zard X, Suicune, Tyranitar-M, Magearna, etc). So nothing has changed there either.

Veil has definitely lost a ton of popularity since the OLT era (on ladder at least), but if a nomination were to be made to move down its main setter, this isn't the reasoning to go about it.
I agree with this. It's also why Webs hasn't really gone away. Both Veil and Webs are at least as relevant as they were right before USUM. It can be argued they are more-so relevant after having found some new appreciation with Naga and now Blace as both mons like Veil and Webs support. New Defoggers certainly help in that they offer some variety to the hazard removal options, but they don't completely dissuade things like Veil, Webs, or other hazards. Every team still has one remover, they just might be slightly different now.
 

Finchinator

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I dont think Mantine should drop, Ive been trying out Sub-Mantine, and it can completely mess up teams. Especially once you start with sub, and can defog anything trying to set up on you, and you get free damage, and of course get a chance to burn with scald. Also Using sub+defog completely shuts down toxapex, with water absorb, toxapex can't do anything to it. While getting free damage. So I disagree with the drop.

Forgot to mention to, it if you play vs rain teams, it completely messes them up. And Its mega swampert nightmare.
I feel like Substitute is a bit of a waste on Mantine as it is so passive that every single bulky-win condition sets up on it and it does not pose much of an offensive threat. In addition, it needs every free moveslot it can get due to wanting to fit Defog, Roost, Scald, Toxic, Haze, and even less common options like Protect to scout for CB Tyranitar or Air Slash to damage Grass types. I find it hard to believe that Substitute Mantine really is too effective as you will have to drop another crucial move, you never really take advantage of having a Substitute up -- if you get a Substitute up on something like Toxapex, then what do you do??? it just PP stalls you to death and the back-and-forth goes nowhere, and it simply clashes with the nature of Mantine as a utility check to various offensive threats. The reason Mantine is dying down is because Pokemon it is needed for simply are not as common atm (Charizard-Y, Keldeo, and Spikes Protean Greninja) while other Defog users are surging up, specifically due to it being added to the movepools of numerous Pokemon upon the release of USUM. I feel like Mantine still has a place in the tier, but it is somewhat less than before due to metagame shifts and this place does not involve a Substitute set.
 
well since you ask, sub vs Toxapex, will get you free defog, and free chance of burn with scald, I mean what can Toxapex do to Mantine once it uses sub? Cant throw hazards, can't use water attacks since it has water absorb, can't do anything but sit there and get burned. Also Mantine flies so even if you switch in on spikes or toxic spikes its still not going to get hit. I just find sub Mantine useful, and get free burns also useful.
 
I disagree with the reasoning behind this drop. What are the new OU-relevant defoggers that beat Ninetales-A we're speaking of? Rotom-W gets smacked by freeze dry, Lando-T and Gliscor are quad-weak to ice attacks. "Defog influx" doesn't mean anything towards Ninetales-A.
Not completely agreeing with a Ninetales drop, but Tapu Koko is a defogger that isn't too afraid of Ninetales and can easily gain momentum against it since it outspeeds and can Defog until the hail runs out, block Hypnosis with terrain, or just smack with Thunderbolt. Although it's not consistent or defensive like the three you mentioned and can be surprised by Blizzard or something I think Defog Koko has a place on offense, and unlike a lot of defoggers it isn't weak to Ice either.
 
Not completely agreeing with a Ninetales drop, but Tapu Koko is a defogger that isn't too afraid of Ninetales and can easily gain momentum against it since it outspeeds and can Defog until the hail runs out, block Hypnosis with terrain, or just smack with Thunderbolt. Although it's not consistent or defensive like the three you mentioned and can be surprised by Blizzard or something I think Defog Koko has a place on offense, and unlike a lot of defoggers it isn't weak to Ice either.
That's the thing though. If we're going to harp on Florges as a Defogger because of 4MSS (rightfully so) then I feel the same argument should absolutely apply to Tapu Koko. Koko wants Electric STAB, Roost, Hidden Powers, Taunt, U-Turn, Dazzling Gleam, etc. Defog is hard to fit on there without giving up something very useful. Sure, Koko can run Defog. So can Lando-T. But that would be suboptimal and cause it to miss out on something it really needs.

There are just better Defog options. In theory it's nice to say that it beats Veil, but so does just simply running Taunt Koko. And Taunt Koko does far more for the team as a whole anyway, which again kind of renders the Defog option far less optimal and less viable.
 

Finchinator

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well since you ask, sub vs Toxapex, will get you free defog, and free chance of burn with scald, I mean what can Toxapex do to Mantine once it uses sub? Cant throw hazards, can't use water attacks since it has water absorb, can't do anything but sit there and get burned. Also Mantine flies so even if you switch in on spikes or toxic spikes its still not going to get hit. I just find sub Mantine useful, and get free burns also useful.
In legitimately any drawn-out game with a Scald user involved, Toxapex will get burned -- it is switching in to absorb Water attacks so often and Scald has a 30% burn rate, so this is inevitable. The fact that Burn is negated by Black Sludge, the fact that Toxic Spikes is much less common on Toxapex right now, and the fact that you do not threaten it remotely, let alone beat it 1v1 due to Toxapex almost always having more PP, really invalidates whatever niche you seem to believe your set has. Sitting there behind a Substitute just lets a Toxapex heal to full and then trade PP with you mindlessly until you are forced to struggle and this strategy can even be taken advantage of significantly if your opponent has another Pokemon not vulnerable to Mantine, giving them multiple free turns. Substitute on such a passive Pokemon that is meant to serve the niche of a defensive Defog user simply does not make sense when there is no common scenario that lets it work much more effectively in. It is legitimately a wasted moveslot and all you have said is that it lets you burn Toxapex and Defog when it can do that in those match-ups regardless so like ???

Mantine should not use Substitute and it should drop a rank or two (latter bc of what I said in last post predominantly).
 
I thought this thread was about ranking mons, not ranking moves. You might not find burn useful, but I find sub useful vs many things. You can't tell people what they can and can't use, like what are you going to? Kick down their door to their house and force them to play the way you want? If I find a move useful, then I'm going to use it.
 
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mushamu

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I thought this thread was about ranking mons, not ranking moves. You might not find burn useful, but I find sub useful vs many things. You can't tell people what they can and can't use, like what are you going to? Kick down their door to their house and force them to play the way you want? If I find a move useful, then I'm going to use it.
That's literally not the point of Finch's post. He's not saying you can't use Sub Mantine or whatever the fuck you want to use, he's telling you that Sub Mantine is a bad set. You used Sub Mantine to defend Mantine staying B+ so your argument is not valid as Sub Mantine is a terrible set. Sure, you can use Sub Mantine or whatever as much as you like, but Finch is telling you that Sub Mantine is a bad set so don't get too fired up on that please.
 

TPP

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I thought this thread was about ranking mons, not ranking moves. You might not find burn useful, but I find sub useful vs many things. You can't tell people what they can and can't use, like what are you going to? Kick down their door to their house and force them to play the way you want? If I find a move useful, then I'm going to use it.
In this case, you disagreed with a Mantine drop and when explaining why, you began with your set involving Substitute, which is inefficient and the reasoning can be found in the post above yours. We don't tell people to run things without a reason. We recommend sets because they tend to be the most efficient ones at drawing out the potential from that mon in the current metagame. You can use any mon or any move you want, but it won't always be as effective as something else, and we're here to try and help people use the most efficient options they can. Hopefully this helped and I encourage you to reread esteemed moderator Finchinator's post as his main point was to explain why Sub on Mantine is inefficient.
 

Marigold

formerly KuraiTenshi26
I thought this thread was about ranking mons, not ranking moves. You might not find burn useful, but I find sub useful vs many things. You can't tell people what they can and can't use, like what are you going to? Kick down their door to their house and force them to play the way you want? If I find a move useful, then I'm going to use it.
Have you considered trying out sub zapdos? :] You could sub up on passive stuff and 1) have a strong offensive presence 2) be fast enough to set up subs 3) win pp wars because of pressure. Just a thought, because your set idea is good but the mon you chose for it isn't really fit for the job.

If Mantine were either faster, or had more offensive presence, then I could see it pulling off a sub set similar to how heatran can pull off a sub toxic set. But mantine is unfortunately too passive to pull off a sub set, and loses most pp wars 1v1.
 

Finchinator

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I thought this thread was about ranking mons, not ranking moves. You might not find burn useful, but I find sub useful vs many things. You can't tell people what they can and can't use, like what are you going to? Kick down their door to their house and force them to play the way you want? If I find a move useful, then I'm going to use it.
I am in no way telling you what to use or what not to use; this game is played for fun and I hope that you and everyone else on Smogon has as much fun as they can in whatever way they can. I think you misconstrued the focus of my posts and the constructive nature of them as some overarching sentiment that implies force and right vs wrong as opposed to me simply stressing standards and, more importantly, optimal sets on a Pokemon that simply lacks much room for creativity or departures from the norm. Everyone is entitled to play for fun and I am glad that there are so many individuals who populate PS doing just that! However, threads like these and others in the subforum are intended to discuss the metagame at a higher, analytical level that involves limiting matters to the best, most optimal (and consistent) sets.

I would also like to echo what Ghost Cream and Team Pokepals said on a more direct level when it comes to discussing the matter and our differences themselves.

Regardless, Mantine has been discussed plenty -- let's refrain from elaborating on this matter so that we can focus on more common, viable Pokemon in the metagame and not continue to derail the thread. If you would like to follow-up or ask any questions, feel free to VM or PM me and I will gladly discuss anything, silent ghost
 

MANNAT

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To prove Gary's point above, I'm going to make my own nommination for an unranked Pokemon to get ranked to show that if you make a proper post about them, then they can at least get considered to be ranked. I've been wanting to make this nomination for a while now, but I just haven't bothered doing it. I know that this nomination is going to be pretty controversial, but bear with me here because this thing is an absolute savage. I hope that this can provide somewhat of a template for Unranked ---> Ranked Pokemon noms because a lot of them I've seen are pretty bad.

Qwilfish to C+ Rank

Qwilfish @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Explosion
- Swords Dance
- Poison Jab / Spikes

In my opinion, Qwilfish is one of the best Pokemon that you can use on rain teams and does a fantastic job supporting the rest of the team. Since giant walls of text are awful to read, I'm gonna bullet point my argument so that you guys can more easily read it and reference it later. Also, I want to give Vertex a shoutout for helping me tinker around with the wording of the post and laddering with me while I was trying to compile replays for this post.

• Swords Dance allows it to bust through a lot of common rain checks and get 2-3 kills vs teams without a sturdy Water-type switch in.
• Virtually every water resist in the tier gets straight up 2HKO'd by +2 Aqua Tail in the rain bar an elite group of Pokemon, meaning that you can easily weaken stuff that normally switches into the vast majority of rain abusers.
• Explosion can entirely eliminate huge threats to rain such as Toxapex, Choice Scarf Kartana, Gastrodon, etc. or straight up trading 1 for 1 late game with something that threatens the rest of the team to give your team a huge momentum gain and advantage in the late game such as DD Mega Gyarados.
• Additionally, Qwilfish's ability to absorb Toxic Spikes is pivotal for rain's matchup vs Toxapex because it allows you to stack up hazards to pressure the bulky offense or balance that Toxapex is on while still being able to rid the field of Toxic Spikes, which can be huge for supporting grounded rain abusers like Swampert and Ash-Greninja that hate being poisoned.
• There aren't any specific metagame trends in USUM that make Qwilfish any better than it was in SM, but Qwilfish simply hasn't been explored enough yet and has been worthy of being ranked for a good amount of time now.
• Qwilfish brings a lot of utility and pressure to support rain teams, but it is by no means perfect because of its frailty and how it needs to find the right set up opportunities.
• Also attached to this post is a sample team with Qwilfish that I've been using to great effect, some calcs demonstrating Qwilfish's power, and several replays of Qwilfish in action.
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 116 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 22 Spe
- Scald
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Rain Dance

Ferrothorn @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 52 Def / 208 SpD
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Power Whip
- Stealth Rock

Qwilfish @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Explosion
- Swords Dance
- Poison Jab

Tapu Koko @ Tapunium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt
- U-turn

Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Spikes
+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 356-420 (101.1 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 433-510 (142.4 - 167.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex in Rain: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 136 Def Mantine: 337-398 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 248 HP / 136 Def Mantine: 352-415 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 426-502 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela in Rain: 398-468 (100 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 530-629 (154.5 - 183.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 329-387 (101.8 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios in Rain: 304-359 (100.9 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 485-571 (133.6 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega in Rain: 196-231 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 672-792 (95.5 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 447-526 (147.5 - 173.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash in Rain: 182-214 (60 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew in Rain: 437-515 (108.9 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 484-572 (119.8 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 40 HP / 216+ Def Alomomola: 537-632 (111.6 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune in Rain: 226-265 (55.9 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 530-624 (154.5 - 181.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Obviously you can only use Explosion once per game, but the point of these calcs is to show that Qwilfish can eliminate virtually every Pokemon that normally threatens rain teams if played well and thus is an excellent member of rain teams
 
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To prove Gary's point above, I'm going to make my own nommination for an unranked Pokemon to get ranked to show that if you make a proper post about them, then they can at least get considered to be ranked. I've been wanting to make this nomination for a while now, but I just haven't bothered doing it. I know that this nomination is going to be pretty controversial, but bear with me here because this thing is an absolute savage. I hope that this can provide somewhat of a template for Unranked ---> Ranked Pokemon noms because a lot of them I've seen are pretty bad.

Qwilfish to C+ Rank

Qwilfish @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Explosion
- Swords Dance
- Poison Jab / Spikes

In my opinion, Qwilfish is one of the best Pokemon that you can use on rain teams and does a fantastic job supporting the rest of the team. Since giant walls of text are awful to read, I'm gonna bullet point my argument so that you guys can more easily read it and reference it later. Also, I want to give Vertex a shoutout for helping me tinker around with the wording of the post and laddering with me while I was trying to compile replays for this post.

• Swords Dance allows it to bust through a lot of common rain checks and get 2-3 kills vs teams without a sturdy Water-type switch in.
• Virtually every water resist in the tier gets straight up 2HKO'd by +2 Aqua Tail in the rain bar an elite group of Pokemon, meaning that you can easily weaken stuff that normally switches into the vast majority of rain abusers.
• Explosion can entirely eliminate huge threats to rain such as Toxapex, Choice Scarf Kartana, Gastrodon, etc. or straight up trading 1 for 1 late game with something that threatens the rest of the team to give your team a huge momentum gain and advantage in the late game such as DD Mega Gyarados.
• Additionally, Qwilfish's ability to absorb Toxic Spikes is pivotal for rain's matchup vs Toxapex because it allows you to stack up hazards to pressure the bulky offense or balance that Toxapex is on while still being able to rid the field of Toxic Spikes, which can be huge for supporting grounded rain abusers like Swampert and Ash-Greninja that hate being poisoned.
• There aren't any specific metagame trends in USUM that make Qwilfish any better than it was in SM, but Qwilfish simply hasn't been explored enough yet and has been worthy of being ranked for a good amount of time now.
• Qwilfish brings a lot of utility and pressure to support rain teams, but it is by no means perfect because of its frailty and how it needs to find the right set up opportunities.
• Also attached to this post is a sample team with Qwilfish that I've been using to great effect, some calcs demonstrating Qwilfish's power, and several replays of Qwilfish in action.
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 116 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 22 Spe
- Scald
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Rain Dance

Ferrothorn @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 52 Def / 208 SpD
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Power Whip
- Stealth Rock

Qwilfish @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Explosion
- Swords Dance
- Poison Jab

Tapu Koko @ Tapunium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt
- U-turn

Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Spikes
+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 356-420 (101.1 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 433-510 (142.4 - 167.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex in Rain: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 136 Def Mantine: 337-398 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 248 HP / 136 Def Mantine: 352-415 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 426-502 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela in Rain: 398-468 (100 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 530-629 (154.5 - 183.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 329-387 (101.8 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios in Rain: 304-359 (100.9 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 485-571 (133.6 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega in Rain: 196-231 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 672-792 (95.5 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 447-526 (147.5 - 173.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash in Rain: 182-214 (60 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew in Rain: 437-515 (108.9 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 484-572 (119.8 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 40 HP / 216+ Def Alomomola: 537-632 (111.6 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune in Rain: 226-265 (55.9 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 530-624 (154.5 - 181.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Obviously you can only use Explosion once per game, but the point of these calcs is to show that Qwilfish can eliminate virtually every Pokemon that normally threatens rain teams if played well and thus is an excellent member of rain teams
I've also seen fell stinger on the ladder, which you could run over SD if you want to.
 
To prove Gary's point above, I'm going to make my own nommination for an unranked Pokemon to get ranked to show that if you make a proper post about them, then they can at least get considered to be ranked. I've been wanting to make this nomination for a while now, but I just haven't bothered doing it. I know that this nomination is going to be pretty controversial, but bear with me here because this thing is an absolute savage. I hope that this can provide somewhat of a template for Unranked ---> Ranked Pokemon noms because a lot of them I've seen are pretty bad.

Qwilfish to C+ Rank

Qwilfish @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Explosion
- Swords Dance
- Poison Jab / Spikes

In my opinion, Qwilfish is one of the best Pokemon that you can use on rain teams and does a fantastic job supporting the rest of the team. Since giant walls of text are awful to read, I'm gonna bullet point my argument so that you guys can more easily read it and reference it later. Also, I want to give Vertex a shoutout for helping me tinker around with the wording of the post and laddering with me while I was trying to compile replays for this post.

• Swords Dance allows it to bust through a lot of common rain checks and get 2-3 kills vs teams without a sturdy Water-type switch in.
• Virtually every water resist in the tier gets straight up 2HKO'd by +2 Aqua Tail in the rain bar an elite group of Pokemon, meaning that you can easily weaken stuff that normally switches into the vast majority of rain abusers.
• Explosion can entirely eliminate huge threats to rain such as Toxapex, Choice Scarf Kartana, Gastrodon, etc. or straight up trading 1 for 1 late game with something that threatens the rest of the team to give your team a huge momentum gain and advantage in the late game such as DD Mega Gyarados.
• Additionally, Qwilfish's ability to absorb Toxic Spikes is pivotal for rain's matchup vs Toxapex because it allows you to stack up hazards to pressure the bulky offense or balance that Toxapex is on while still being able to rid the field of Toxic Spikes, which can be huge for supporting grounded rain abusers like Swampert and Ash-Greninja that hate being poisoned.
• There aren't any specific metagame trends in USUM that make Qwilfish any better than it was in SM, but Qwilfish simply hasn't been explored enough yet and has been worthy of being ranked for a good amount of time now.
• Qwilfish brings a lot of utility and pressure to support rain teams, but it is by no means perfect because of its frailty and how it needs to find the right set up opportunities.
• Also attached to this post is a sample team with Qwilfish that I've been using to great effect, some calcs demonstrating Qwilfish's power, and several replays of Qwilfish in action.
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 116 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 22 Spe
- Scald
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Rain Dance

Ferrothorn @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 52 Def / 208 SpD
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Power Whip
- Stealth Rock

Qwilfish @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Explosion
- Swords Dance
- Poison Jab

Tapu Koko @ Tapunium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt
- U-turn

Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Spikes
+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 356-420 (101.1 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 433-510 (142.4 - 167.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex in Rain: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 136 Def Mantine: 337-398 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 248 HP / 136 Def Mantine: 352-415 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 426-502 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela in Rain: 398-468 (100 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 530-629 (154.5 - 183.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 329-387 (101.8 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios in Rain: 304-359 (100.9 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 485-571 (133.6 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega in Rain: 196-231 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 672-792 (95.5 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 447-526 (147.5 - 173.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash in Rain: 182-214 (60 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew in Rain: 437-515 (108.9 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 484-572 (119.8 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 40 HP / 216+ Def Alomomola: 537-632 (111.6 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune in Rain: 226-265 (55.9 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 530-624 (154.5 - 181.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Obviously you can only use Explosion once per game, but the point of these calcs is to show that Qwilfish can eliminate virtually every Pokemon that normally threatens rain teams if played well and thus is an excellent member of rain teams
I've loved using SS Qwilfish in rain in Gen IV but ever since Explosion nerf in Gen V, it feels as though Kabutops have been one who has been overshadowing it for the longest time, being pretty much the primary reason why SS Qwilfish is so underexplored.

As such, I feel like you should make a contrast with Kabutops as well, who takes on many of the same threats with Superpower and Cont Crush, considering Tops is also unranked, so something like what makes Qwilfish a better SD user in rain compared to Tops in the current meta.
 
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MANNAT

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I've loved using SS Qwilfish in rain in Gen IV but ever since Explosion nerf in Gen V, it feels as though Kabutops have been one who has been overshadowing it for the longest time, being pretty much the primary reason why SS Qwilfish is so underexplored.

As such, I feel like you should make a contrast with Kabutops as well, who takes on many of the same threats with Superpower and Cont Crush, considering Tops is also unranked, so something like what makes Qwilfish a better SD user in rain compared to Tops in the current meta.
Here's a conversation I had with mattybrollic on discord about a comparison between the two.
upload_2017-12-7_11-12-12.png

upload_2017-12-7_11-11-36.png
 
Garchomp (Mega) C -> B-

Mega-Garchomp is really overlooked due to the fact that its speed drop and ability are perceived as a death sentence, but this is really not the case.

For the last 6 months I have consistently been having fantastic success with Garchomp as a lead stealth rocker.

Garchomp-Mega @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin (sand force after mega evolving)
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower

With base 170 attack Garchomp doesn't even need ev's to do decent damage, just a +attack nature. I chose brave because losing 20 speed doesn't do much to an already slow 'mon (remember dragon tail is also -6 priority), and ramps its attack stat up to 414. Adamant is not desirable as it weakens flamethrower.

Full HP and SpDef investment gives MegaChomp frightening 420/266/289 defenses, which let it tank almost anything. I chose full SpDef investment because the 3 most prevalent move threats to it (HP ice, Moonblast, and Draco Meteor) are all special. Note that this set only takes 30-35% damage from a Lando-T HP ice. It also survives scarf Lele and Mega-Diancie moonblasts, easily revenge killing with earthquake. Garchomp's excellent defensive typing and astronomical bulk mean it doesn't need need to worry about neutral hits.

Regarding the moves and the pokemon's role:

Stealth rock is stealth rock- 'nuff said.
Dragon tail is a fantastic move to use after setting up rocks, phazing the opponent out and causing switch in damage. Very often I am able to use this move 4 turns in succession to frustrate and wear down opponents. Its easy to predict if they switch into a fairy, in which case they can be nailed with a different move on the switch in.
Earthquake doesn't require much explanation.
Flamethrower/Fire Blast; this is the real dark horse of the set. Mega Chomp has a base 120 special attack. Flamethrower deals >50% to Skarmory, ohko's Kartana, does >50% to offensive Bulu, 65% to Ferrothorn, and does very respectable damage (>35%) to many other nuisances such as specially defensive Celesteela and Tangrowth. Flamethrower is also useful once chomp has been intimidated 2+ times by dragon tailing and getting switched into by Lando-T over and over again (which WILL happen in soooo many games).

While Garchomp's deceptively powerful flamethrower and decent 414 attack can pressure foes, one may for forgiven for thinking that much of the meta still walls Mega Chomp. This is correct, and is particularly evident when Mega Chomp comes up against stall teams, where earthquake fails to do >50% to a variety of threats such as Chansey, Quagsire, Clefable, and Mega Sableye, who can easily stall or burn it out. This is not a problem, as these threats can simply be dragon tailed out (with the exception of Clefable). Not satisfied with this answer? Well then...

SAND FORCE

It's no secret that Tyranitar has seen a massive rise in viability recently, and is therefore becoming increasingly common on a variety of teams. Tyranitar brings with it a mighty sandstorm, which endows Mega-Garchomp with a 30% stronger earthquake, allowing it to muscle past pesky stall foes.


This is why I wish for Mega Garchomp to rise. Tt sets up rocks with ease and phases its opposition out, dealing chip damage, and decimating grassy walls with its nifty powerful flamethrower. Furthermore, with all the sand floating around the place its gets a very welcome earthquake boost, allowing it to threaten almost any foe.

*******************************************************************

Regarding Qwilfish, that thing NEEDS fell stinger. That move is its only saving grace, the only thing that gives it some kind of niche in the meta, the only thing that makes it fun!
Pain split is also pretty unique to it on rain teams. Also I believe it did get liquidation this gen, which is definitely better than waterfall.
 
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