CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 11a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[Raikaria]

On the topic of Taunt, I actually feel it should be allowed, as it adds to Krillowatt's customisability.

Taunt is for more than breaking walls, and, Taunt alone is not going to deal with Snorlax, who'll just KO you, or Blissey, you'll Sismic Toss you to death unless Krillowatt's carrying a Fighting-type move. That's 2 moves to counter 1 pokemon.

Taunt can be used to counter things that are not offensive, such as Baton Passers, stat-uppers which may be able to take a hit, such as Agligross or DDTar. However, it would't just be a case of 'Slap Taunt on the movesets'.

Basically, Killowatt's not going to be taking down Blissey unless it has a Fighting-type attack as well [2 move for 1 pokemon = Heavy Customisation], nor Snorlax at all, and Taunt is not going to stop anything countering Krillowatt. It won't even be a good wallbreaker with it's offensive stats.

However, all stat-boosting and recovery [Bar Rest] should be disallowed.

Will-O-Wisp should be disallowed. It cripples Swampert and Tyranitar, two checks, and would soft-counter more than half of the physically based OU.

Destiny Bond on a pokemon with a Base Speed as high as KrilloWatt's, would be broken. Sure, Froslass is faster, but Froslass isn't bulky, and built to counter a specific threat. Killowatt with Destiny Bond would counter threat #1, then take down whatever revenges it, unless it's faster or Scarfed.

Whirlwind and Roar for disallowed. With Killowatt forcing switches anyway [Because who's going to keep in whatever Krillo Switches into, because it screams 'I counter You!'], Phazing moves will add to hazrd abuse, and possibly drag back in the 'victim', allowing for more cycles. It could be easily abuseable.

 

[goinGreen]

Magic Coat should not be allowed. Many pokemon have access to Magic Coat and choose not to use it since they have better attacking options, such as, but not limited to, Gengar, Blaziken, Ambipom, Infernape, and Lucario. There are better attacking options, but Magic Coat is there. It could and would likely be abused on Krillowatt, though, giving Trace Krillowatt a temporary Magic Guard, if predicted properly, with an added bonus.

We've given Krillowatt STAB, Ice attacks, essentially every competitive attacking dragon-type attack, earthquake, priority on both the physical and special spectrums, and various flavor moves. Krillowatt is meant to be a utility counter, with the ability to counter a tremendous amount of things, but not everything at once. Magic Coat would take up one attacking slot, meaning Krillowatt could counter leech seeding, stat-lowering, status-inducing, blocking pokemon and still have room to counter many others.

Magic Coat, Thunderbolt, Surf, Draco Meteor. STAB Surf hits many pokemon neutrally and scores some SE hits, and with a Modest, full Special Attack nature, could score KOs. Thunderbolt hits flying and other water types well. Draco Meteor handles the dragons, or at least enough a Thunderbolt could handle Salamence and Dragonite and a Surf could handle Garchomp. Now add Magic Coat, and your will-o-wisp-ers, spore/hypnosis users, mean look baton passers, and your Toxic or Thunder Wavers [cough]Blissey[/cough] are countered, at least temporarily, or their purpose is defeated and a switch is forced. Are we looking for that, for Krillowatt to be able to counter or at least handle that many pokemon at once?

No. That would be Overkrill. As such, Magic Coat should be banned.

 

[Yllnath]

I'd like to throw my support behind Destiny Bond. I think it suits the concept rather well. Take one thing out that you want to kill but die in the process.

I agree that stat up and recovery moves should not be considered at all as well.

I do like to support and/or propose the following moves: Encore/Disable/Heal Block/Imprison/Safeguard. Basically any move that disables/discourages the opponent to use certain moves against CAP10. I left Taunt out on purpose as it's a much more all-round move to disable a large host of tankish pokemon, who would otherwise more properly break CAP10. With the above list, you'll break either healers/status (Heal Block/Safeguard) users, repeat or disable (Encore or Disable) a last move used, or you'll be able to specifically disable 1 move (Imprison)
So, I'm in favor of all of the moves above, but against Taunt.

I'd also like to hear other opinions on a highly situational move but something that could really fit this concept: Snatch
Just knowing Snatch could be on a set highly encourages any pokemon to use attacking moves, as boosts, heals, etc. could be stealen to benefit CAP10.
I think this would work really well with CAP10.

 

[Xiom]

Going green, how exactly are you going to counter leech seeders, status-inducing, stat-lowering (Is there even any?) with Mirror coat.

Leech seed will most likely be behind a sub, and they won't complain if you use mirror coat a few turns in a row to let them gain HP then strike you with a physical attack. I'm saying they will be behind a sub because you have to switch on them to counter them. If they don't sub on the switch they can seed you without letting you use mirror coat. Anyways magic guard counter seeding pretty good by itself.

Status, realy only thing here is sleep and para. All others are covered by Magic Guard allready. You still can't switch in on a sleep or para attack so it wouldn't be a status absorber. So you'd have to switch in on an damaging attack and then predict right when you think they will use para or sleep move. If it was a para move nothing keeps them from doing it again. So either you have to switch to a status absorber or take the para next time. All you managed in the end was making that pokemon paralyzed. You didn't counter it, just made its life 25% harder. Unless ofcourse it was a fast sweeper trying to paralyze you. And those are realy common.

Sleep is another story as it stops the opposing pokemon to attack and it will most likely switch out unless it thinks it can outlast the sleep. Thus countering that pokemon. But to be fair, if you manage to mirror coat a sleep move the opponent deserves to be put to sleep.

Stat-loweres, hmm didn't think of those, might be a problem as there is soo many of them. I'm not sure but i might be using sarcasm here. Just like i did on fast T-Wave sweepers.

Edit:

Didn't see that you said it about trace CAP. But "tempoary Magic Guard if predicted right"... so, takes up attack slot and attack turn, needs you to perdict the move, and the reward is 1 turn protection from staus with the added bonus of stausing them back. Nothing bar sleep stops them from doing it again next turn. So if you don't use Mirror Coat another time you'll get statused, and if you do and they use an attacking move, you just wasted a turn congratulations.

 

[Veedrock]

The set you mention is not an issue, as nobody has suggested giving it Subsitute.

It hasn't been mentioned because its one of the default TM moves that every pokemon has.

EDIT: Of course we can break the trend but the problem with that is that you have to argue against Substitution.

 

[Xiom]

It hasn't been mentioned because its one of the default TM moves that every pokemon has.

Ditto isn't counted? Shame on you.

And we can allways break a trend.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Aqua Ring is not necessary and thus should be disallowed.

This is exactly what we're not doing here. Just because something is not necessary does not imply therefore that it should be disallowed. We are going through a list of competitively viable non-attacking moves and deciding if they fall into the bracket of our concept and should be allowed or can be abused to turn Krilowatt into something it's not (For instance, dual screener). If it's not necessary, but doesn't really do anything for Krilowatt, then it should be allowed as a flavor move. Aqua Ring, despite offering some remote healing, is giving you a measly 6% per turn (compared to 50% from things like Recover), and so should be allowed.

Taunt-We need this move for stopping setup sweepers(especially specially based ones that can't be stopped by WoW), as Heart Swap is not exactly the most reliable way to stop switching pokemon(who might be our target).

No. I don't care that Taunt can stop people setting up entry hazards or that Taunt can keep the opposing Breloom from using Spore or some crap. What I care about is that Taunt turns Krilowatt into a Stallbreaker that outclasses even Kitsunoh because of Magic Guard. That single move will shift the balance of Krilowatt away from utility countering and into other realms, something we most definitely should not support. Taunt is properly placed in disallowed.

Heart Swap and Psycho Shift should not be allowed. Since we are straight up avoiding stat boosting moves, why are we now alowing stat stealing moves? Heart Swap not only counters threats like Swords Dance Lucario or Scizor, but CAP10 has a free shot at sweeping immediately afterwards. So far we've steered clear of stat boosts to deal with threats so we shouldn't start now even if the move is somewhat situational. CAP10 is designed to be situational. Heart Swap should not be included and Psych Up should be controversial.

Heart Swap and Psych Up, I believe you mean. Anyways, these moves are incredibly hard to execute their strategies, because you have to stay in the battle and soak a Lucario's CC or something in order to grab the boost. Furthermore, if Lucario actually switches out of you and you Heart Swap or Psych Up the switch-in, you have wasted a turn. The situational nature of this "boost", if it can even be called that, allows it to be fair game and not of the nature of setup - rather reaction to setup. It also provides Krilowatt an excellent means to scare off durable setup threats that it otherwise cannot beat simply by stealing CMs from Suicune or Curses from Snorlax.

Mind you, even after stealing the boosts, you have to just happen to have the moves on your set to even take advantage of those boosts. You can't take advantage of Curselax and Crocune all at once. Heart Swap and Psych Up are excellent and situational choices for Krilowatt for all of these reasons.

Substitute should be disallowed.

This is ridiculous. Without a setup strategy to execute, hiding under a Substitute as you force a switch doesn't turn you into some attacking or defensive menace. All you get to do is scout the opponent's switch-in to Krilowatt, which is hardly destructive and/or broken. Substitute should stay, obviously, allowed.

Destiny Bond on a pokemon with a Base Speed as high as KrilloWatt's would be broken. Sure, Froslass is faster, but Froslass isn't bulky, and built to counter a specific threat. Killowatt with Destiny Bond would counter threat #1, then take down whatever revenges it, unless it's faster or Scarfed.

Yeah, that's why Gengar is an Uber, right? Right? Really, Destiny Bond requires that you die, and if you fail to use it properly, gives the opponent free turns to setup some strategy that you likely won't want them doing effectively. It is so useful on Froslass only because she tends to intentionally suicide in the UU metagame to grab layers of Spikes and then take something down with her - especially since everything is so eager to kill her with Spikes shredding more than half the tier. Note that only the UU metagame has problems with stuff like this, and even then, it's only a contributing factor to Froslass being ridiculous - her Spikes are far worse. I don't think we have anything to worry about with Krilowatt getting it.

Leech seed will most likely be behind a sub ...

Speaking of that, Leech Seed for disallowed. It's a setup strategy and with Krilowatt's speed, general bulk, and so forth can and will be very effective. It's not utility countering anything, it's just Krilowatt being amazing at Leech Seed stalling people. I shouldn't have to explain this further.

 

[KematianMarwolaeth]

I think synthesis,morning sun and moonlight should be controversial.
They all recover 50% health, but this is in clear weather, and with the popularity of rain dance teams, tyranitar and hippowdon, as well as the unpopularity if sunny day teams, it would not be 50% all the time.
This means they have some use, but for many situations, they wouldn't be all that useful

 

[Zystral]

Aqua Ring should be disallowed.
Krilowatt is not getting any other means of reliable recovery. Recover? no. Slack Off? no. Weather-based recovery moves? no. Keep it that way.
High HP may be so, and good bulk may be so, but with Leftovers alone, you cannot repeatedly re-use it. Even with Magic Guard blocking entry hazard and status damage, the fact that it's is going to be repeatedly switching into threats means it will be taking damage, and the damage it takes is not enough to shrug off. This makes it perfect for the concept, that with no reliable recovery, it can counter the foe, and then can't do anything else.
Sure, Aqua Ring might not be helpful for the three-four turns it stays in, but say you Aqua Ring on the switch as your designated threat switches out. In that one turn alone you'll have restored 12.5% of health, and then if you use something like protect, that's enough HP back for a Substitute.
Now, while Substitute is allowed, I can hear the "Sub/Protect/AquaRing makes it a super staller!", but realize if you run that set you are reduced to one move. Even more detriminal to Krilowatt's abilities.

Conversely, I am also supporting Heart Swap and Psych Up. However, I am not supporting Snatch.
I will explain. Snatch, STEALS their boosts. That's it. They can't get them back unless they stat-up again, in which turn you can likely attack them or do something else.
Psych Up COPIES the boost. They still have the boost so they are still a potent threat by all means, you just now have the same boosts so they aren't as menacing (Provided you can kill them of course). This doesn't make Krilowatt completely overbearing and able to neuter any stat-upper like Snatch would. It simply gives Krilowatt an easier way of dealing with them by copying their boosts and making use of it.
Heart Swap is in the middle. It SWAPS your boosts. So meaning your opponent can set-up on you semi-infinitely. Let me demonstrate:
Jirachi vs Krilowatt
Jirachi already has +1 and no Sub.
Krilowatt uses Heart Swap.
Jirachi uses Calm Mind.
Both are now at +1.
Krilowatt uses Heart Swap.
Jirachi uses Calm Mind.
J+2 / K+1.
And it would continue like this until your opponent decides to eventually attack. Of course, by then you would have decided to attack much earlier. Heart Swap makes the stat-up threat you're countering stop and think, since if you can outpredict the Heart Swap, you get more stat boosts back and you can keep on attacking, yet play it wrong and Krilowatt becomes a threat as opposed to a counter. It depends all on the people playing.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Reach just reminded me, but I'm pushing for Rain Dance as controversial. Should Krilowatt potentially be a setup transition Pokemon for Rain Dance teams? It can abuse it itself with STAB Surf and STAB Thunder, meanwhile it can also toss in an extra support move from its repertoire to help the team. Sunny Day for allowed, because Krilowatt doesn't want his Thunder having 50% accuracy, his Surf damage being cut in half, and Fire-type attacks hitting him 50% harder than they would otherwise. Sandstorm and Hail are whatever moves, so sure, allow them.

I think synthesis,morning sun and moonlight should be controversial.

I'm against Krilowatt getting any of these healing moves, but due to the prevalence of Tyranitar, I think controversial is indeed a good place for them.

Also, upon further discussion of Encore with Reach and Zy, I feel that it should definitely be disallowed. Encore lets it beat largely the same stuff as Heart Swap or other options, however it gives Krilowatt an exceptional option for beating Stall into a bloody pulp by taking Blissey totally out of the picture. In lieu of all of this, definitely supporting moving Encore to disallowed.

 

[Bamce]

Conversely, I am also supporting Heart Swap and Psych Up. However, I am not supporting Snatch.
I will explain. Snatch, STEALS their boosts. That's it. They can't get them back unless they stat-up again, in which turn you can likely attack them or do something else.
Psych Up COPIES the boost. They still have the boost so they are still a potent threat by all means, you just now have the same boosts so they aren't as menacing (Provided you can kill them of course). This doesn't make Krilowatt completely overbearing and able to neuter any stat-upper like Snatch would. It simply gives Krilowatt an easier way of dealing with them by copying their boosts and making use of it.
Heart Swap is in the middle. It SWAPS your boosts. So meaning your opponent can set-up on you semi-infinitely. Let me demonstrate:

The problem with your example is calm mind. lets use a different example.

Agility.
Pokemon X uses agility You heart swap.
You are now +2 speed
If you try to heart swap again you are now faster. You now give them the +2 boost back as they either attack or go for a second.

Or lets try swords dance.
Lucario uses swords dance as you switch in.
Being faster you heart swap it away. In anticipation they could swords dance again. You are now both at +2. You can heart swap again as you like but luke has probably already killed you.

Your example only works with calm mind. Due to the +1 nature and the fact it also boosts D.

Haze is the best option we have to handle stat uppers. Roar/ww become to abusive. Taunt to over powered.

Also isn't heart swapped "flagged" as a signature move anyway? Not that we couldn't break trend

 

[ferron]

i am very much against heart swap, as it doesn't just copy your opponent's boosts, but outright switches them. with draco meteor as allowed and superpower and overheat being possibly allowed, this would allow these moves to be used with impunity while lowering any opponent's stats. disallowed
psych up is much more balanced, since it only copies the opponent's stat changes, rather than also giving them your stat changes. allowed
snatch i think should be controversial, as it will allow the poke to also copy 50% healing moves, though it is situational.

 

[Korski]

Well I agree with the current lists as they stand, however I would move Magic Coat and Whirlwind to Allowed and Will-o-Wisp to Disallowed.

Neither Magic Coat nor Whirlwind are particularly broken or even terribly useful on this CAP. Status (except paralysis) isn't exactly this CAP's worst enemy, and most Pokemon in OU throwing status around are ones that don't mind their particular statuses too much, mostly via Natural Cure. Magic Coat would be quite gimmicky besides being useless except in extreme situations (most status occurs on the switch). With Perish Song and Heart Swap Allowed, Whirlwind becomes much less appealing for a slot on the moveset. I would rather let CM Suicune or Jirachi set up completely then come in and Heart Swap them than Whirlwind them out, taking a hit in the process. Besides that, without recovery, CAP won't be a great Phazer like Skarmory or Hippowdon, as it will be worn down faster.

While WoW would help Krill a lot at countering things like SD Lucario and Tyranitar, I think it already has effective means of dealing with most physical threats in the metagame and doesn't need a blanket status to help it out in that regard. Sub/WoW (or WoW in general, as Krill is faster than most physical attackers) makes it difficult to really threaten Krillowatt with SE Earthquakes and especially neutral attacks and pushes it over the edge, imo, in dealing with most physical threats at once instead of only one or a few at a time.

I'd also like to add Endeavor, Flatter, Refresh, and Swagger to the Allowed list. Endeavor (and Counter and Mirror Coat) would give Magic Guard CAP a cool way of abusing a Focus Sash and dealing with powerful attackers that it doesn't otherwise outspeed like Latias, +1 Salamence/Gyarados, ScarfTran, etc. Flatter and Swagger produce an interesting strategy along with Heart Swap, giving Krillowatt pseudo boosting moves. The strategy takes two moveslots to accomplish and can be easily foiled by switching out on the HS turn, so I don't think it's too terribly broken like direct boosting moves would be. Refresh is a sort of non-competitive addition that could allow Krillowatt to not be crippled indefinitely by status.

That's all for right meow.

 

[reachzero]

Okay, so first the moves I believe should be definitely disallowed.

Recover/Slack Off/Softboiled/Milk Drink/Wish should all be disallowed, there is no sense is disallowing Recover if we don't cover all our bases here.

Encore is a move I have issues with. It is fine on Pokemon which are bulky and slow (like Machamp) or fast and frail (like Alakazam), but Fidgit has taught us that a speedy, bulky Encore is very, very powerful. It would also keep Blissey from countering Krilowatt, and unless I'm mistaken we want Blissey to counter Krilowatt.

Trick/Switcheroo is really only useful for beating Blissey/Snorlax, which is something we would like to prevent.

Destiny Bond is really annoying, and a particular kind of annoying that we really don't need to face. What will Krilowatt counter better with Destiny Bond? It'll really just let Krilo do its job and take something out with it, like a pseudo-Explosion. Better just to disallow it.

Since Yilnath brought it up, Heal Block is a great example of what Krilowatt should not have: moves allowing it to hurt stall more than it already does.

In terms of moves I would love to see allowed:

Magic Coat is (somewhat) useful and definitely not broken. I see absolutely no reason not to allow it.

Imprison is an absolutely fascinating move on this Pokemon. With the ability to limit the movesets of its opponents based on its own moveset, a bunch of things become counterable that are problematic otherwise!

I would like to see Moonlight/Morning Sun as controversial, since, Sand is common enough in OU that they will be fairly situational.

 

[Bamce]

Magic coat.

What about instead of magic coat we allow safe guard. Ultimately it prevents the same thing. In addition to letting your opponent know that he should stop throwing about those status for a few turns.

Obviously we would need to not have encore for this to be close to fair.

 

[Anti-H]

I say Allow Whirlwind, Magic Coat or Psycho Shift and Heart Swap. Krillowatt's going to be forcing switches left right and center, so why not take advantage of that by having him run recon on the entire team via phazing. It also allows him to soft-counter and scout setup OU threats, like SD Luc and DD Kingdra in or out of the rain. Magic Coat gives him a highly situational T-Wave, Toxic, or WoW dependent on switch-in prediction. P-Shift does that, but better. Heart Swap gives him an interesting way to counter setup Pokes as well, and the Superpower/Outrage synergy is a nice touch.

Will-o-Wisp should stay controversial. I'm not sure he needs that blanket counter when he already has the speed, a possible setup in the chamber with Magic Coat/P-Shift, and a temporary stopgap measure in the other two stated above. Also, his movepool allows him to catch the dangerous physical attackers on the offensive side.

Encore is an interesting time-lock counter and could make for a gimmicky sweeper set with Heart Swap and two STABs if it's done on a stat-upper. We're trying not to make CAP10 a sweeper, but that's a heavy edge case. The more likely outcome is that he gets another way to force a switch out of a bad situation. Allow.

 

[Str0ngbad]

With no stat boosting moves allowed I don't see why Baton Pass has to be disallowed. It wouldn't change much except that Krilowatt can now function on a Baton Pass team. The only reason I can see is to discourage passing TO him since he won't be able to continue passing but I don't think it would be any worse than it is without it. If someone wants to pass a CM or two from Celebi they are still free to so banning Baton Pass isn't solving that one. I will push for Baton Pass to be allowed unless someone can explain to me another reason it should be out. (I imagine there are some good reasons but it is just too late here and I would like to be able to throw our utility counter into my baton pass teams.)

 

[Bamce]

I say Allow Whirlwind, Magic Coat or Psycho Shift and Heart Swap. Krillowatt's going to be forcing switches left right and center, so why not take advantage of that by having him run recon on the entire team via phazing. It also allows him to soft-counter and scout setup OU threats, like SD Luc and DD Kingdra in or out of the rain. Magic Coat gives him a highly situational T-Wave, Toxic, or WoW dependent on switch-in prediction. P-Shift does that, but better. Heart Swap gives him an interesting way to counter setup Pokes as well, and the Superpower/Outrage synergy is a nice touch.

Because that is not what concept is.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

With no stat boosting moves allowed I don't see why Baton Pass has to be disallowed. It wouldn't change much except that Krilowatt can now function on a Baton Pass team. The only reason I can see is to discourage passing TO him since he won't be able to continue passing but I don't think it would be any worse than it is without it. If someone wants to pass a CM or two from Celebi they are still free to so banning Baton Pass isn't solving that one. I will push for Baton Pass to be allowed unless someone can explain to me another reason it should be out. (I imagine there are some good reasons but it is just too late here and I would like to be able to throw our utility counter into my baton pass teams.)

Baton Pass is used, for example, on Pokemon like Jolteon to "dry pass" and scout their switch-ins. This is scouting, which is why we banned U-turn, so it only makes sense to also disallow Baton Pass.

 

[Bamce]

Baton Pass is used, for example, on Pokemon like Jolteon to "dry pass" and scout their switch-ins. This is scouting, which is why we banned U-turn, so it only makes sense to also disallow Baton Pass.

u-turn and baton pass are different though.

U-turn continues to apply pressure, keeps up momentum. Dry passing is a much less underutilized technique. It also carries the risk of something like gyra or mence switching in. Then having you pass off that intimidate to whatever is coming in.

Similar but different. The other part is the speed involved. As this guy is quite speedy, a slower u-turning opponent gets advantage. With u-turn much more prevalent than passing you end up at a disadvantage.

 

[SinisterSamurai]

Beej: Please provide information on the final allowed list for attacking moves as soon as you know it.


Heart Swap for disallowed. Draco Meteor is guaranteed allowed. Overheat and Superpower may be in the final list as well. Heart Swap will allow Krilowatt to smack things around for big damage with those moves, but also negate the disadvantages that allowed them to be included in the very next turn.

Passing along those negative stat effects will cripple special sweepers (or physical sweepers, for Superpower), and encourages switches on more of the metagame.

It'll be an interesting ride one way or the other.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

U-turn continues to apply pressure, keeps up momentum. Dry passing is a much less underutilized technique. It also carries the risk of something like gyra or mence switching in. Then having you pass off that intimidate to whatever is coming in.

Similar but different. The other part is the speed involved. As this guy is quite speedy, a slower u-turning opponent gets advantage. With u-turn much more prevalent than passing you end up at a disadvantage.

The bolded part is the only real difference between U-turn and Baton Pass in terms of scouting (besides damage from U-turn, obviously). Everything else is the same between them. Anyways, trust me when I say that it will take balls or a lot of stupidity for Salamence or Gyarados to switch into Krilowatt with Ice Beam and STAB Thunderbolt at the ready, so I wouldn't be particularly worried about that 'downside'. I'm also not really in favor of Krilowatt functioning as a transition Pokemon for Baton Pass teams.

 

[Brambane]

Being that Heart Swap and Psych Up are being discussed, I would like to suggest Snatch as allowed. Snatch is basically a way to keep Pokemon like Lucario, Salamence and Gyarados (although I'm pretty sure Gyarados would be nuts to stay in on Krilowatt) from setting up if Snatch is down, since I'm pretty sure the opponent wouldn't want Krilowatt to get +1 Speed or +2 Attack or whatever. This is the good for Krilowatt's concept. It can steal recovery moves, like Roost, and Screens, which can help Krilowatt stop some Pokemon from healing, and then being able to wear them down.

 

[Mattman324]

Will O Wisp is... eh, I think it's OK. It learns Toxic, and the only thing Will o Wisp has is the attack drop. Now, while that is very significant, I think it isn't TO bad, and it allows it to defeat things like Salamence easier, while also covering other physical sweepers, without resorting to the specific moves. It doesn't cover them AS WELL though, which is why I think it is allowed.

Whirlwind is an interesting option. It allows him to stop Setup sweepers pretty well, but if he's hitting, say, Cursepurt, he could take a hefty sum of damage from Earthquake. I'm going to also say Allowed.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Do not make posts arguing that a move should be listed as Controversial.

That argument really does not make any sense -- "Controversial" is a status conferred to moves that have multiple good arguments from multiple people for it to be Allowed and Disallowed. Controversial status is determined by the TL -- not you. If you want a move, then argue for it to be Allowed. If you don't want it, then argue for it to be Disallowed. But don't make posts that are basically saying:

"Hey Beej, I can't make up my mind -- but I can do your job for you. This move is Controversial, and I have made that determination even though I'm not the TL or anything. I can't be bothered to actually commit to a stance on it. Let's just vote on everything. Kthanks, bye."​

I realize that's a bit snarky -- but you get my drift. Speak for yourself, and state an opinion. If you are sitting on the fence, then don't post about that move at all. But, by arguing for a move to be Controversial -- you are essentially mini-modding the thread.

So, cut it out.