i'm going to need you to elaborate on that because eo's logic is perfectly fine and a majority of the player base who want venusaur in BL share the same idea as him. the reasonings behind the status of venusaur being bl are perfectly viable reasonings and they are not even close to absurd to be considered "baffling". i am towards venusaur being bl and in case you were wondering, my nomination can be found here. you can flesh out my arguments in my nomination and tell me which one "baffles" you, i'll be glad to respond back.Let's face it, even good players have their biases...and Eo's logic never ceases to baffle me.
I absolutely love the amount of thought in this post, every single one of your points are so well covered by flawless arguments that it leads me to dismal due to me thinking I'll never be like you. Bravo.Let's face it, even good players have their biases...and Eo's logic never ceases to baffle me.
Sleep Powder has more accuracy than Hypnosis/Grasswhistle, which is likely one of the reasons that those Pokemon don't see as much usage. Those other sleep inducers are also far less versatile than Venusaur. I don't believe Venusaur is BL solely because of Sleep Powder; I believe Sleep Powder is a contributing factor.I'm also curious over a few things with the Venusaur nominations:
1. Why do people think Venusaur is more BL than other sleep-inducing Pokemon with a boosting move? What about Ninetales and Poliwrath? Ninetales may not have a reliable recovery move (it gets Pain Split though), but it can avoid being 2HKOed by Milotic Surfs while KO'ing back with Energy Ball, is much faster than Venusaur, can beat Altaria with HP Ice, etc. What about other unpredictable Pokemon like Sceptile and Arcanine? Sceptile can even run Grasswhistle to mimic Venusaur if it doesn't mind the accuracy, and has a much faster speed to compensate for less bulk, better attacking stats, yada yada.
You need three Pokemon to cover Venusaur, unless you're content with leaving something asleep.2. Why does Eo think the fact that a combination of two Pokemon will always wall Raikou depending on what HP it runs makes Raikou UU, but two Pokemon walling Venusaur regardless of what set it runs makes Venusaur BL (other than Bluewind / whistle's signature)?
venusaur and moltres are not comparable as sweepers - they are completely different in their sweeping approaches. moltres doesn't boast the ability to switch in the game with consistency like venusaur can. venusaur has sets of important resistances to common attacking moves and passable defensive stat on both ends. venusaur sweeps teams with a slower approach with synthesis, albeit it still packs a punch while doing so. moltres holds tremendous power but lacks the defensive typing and important sets of resistances venusaur has.I don't think Venusaur is BL. It has quite a large amount (approximately 25* pokemon in the top 50) of Pokemon who can reliably switch in and fend it off. Additionally, it has a very large* amount of checks. In fact, Moltres has less counters and checks even when considering Sleep Powder and we aren't even talking about Moltres for BL at this point.
i'm not a big fan of comparing two different pokemon when you are trying to justify a pokemon's tiering. for your information, raikou's counters were also viable and great: specially defensive venusaur, chansey, steelix, and registeel. raikou is a fantastic sweeper though and will often bypass its soft checks but the main point is it had viable counters like venusaur as well.Additionally, when compared to Raikou, Venusaur's counters are very viable and great. Raikou's counter list had mons like Quagsire on it, while Venusaur's is mainly Moltres, Arcanine, Registeel, etc. We need to stop saying shit like "well it puts a counter to sleep" when it's just another attack that Venusaur has. For example, Moltres / Blaziken have Fire Blast + 2 coverage moves that 2HKO more Pokemon than Venusaur does with Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb, and Sleep Powder.
Moltres has better defenses, immunity to the most common attack in the game, and resistance to the main attack of the most common Pokemon in the metagame (Venusaur itself). You are flat out incorrect, and to be honest, I have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion. Sure, "Stealth Rock", but we all know you can keep that off the field if you specifically play for it. It doesn't take away from the fact that Moltres is bulkier and has an easy (if not easier) time switching in.venusaur and moltres are not comparable as sweepers - they are completely different in their sweeping approaches.
moltres doesn't boast the ability to switch in the game with consistency like venusaur can.
moltres holds tremendous power but lacks the defensive typing and important sets of resistances venusaur has.
"Moltres has sets of important resistances to [the most] common attacking moves and [more than] passable defensive stats on both ends."Franky said:venusaur has sets of important resistances to common attacking moves and passable defensive stat on both ends.
Franky said:venusaur sweeps teams with a slower approach with synthesis, albeit it still packs a punch while doing so.
1. Venusaur is not a counter for Raikou (very common misconception)franky said:i'm not a big fan of comparing two different pokemon when you are trying to justify a pokemon's tiering. for your information, raikou's counters were also viable and great: specially defensive venusaur, chansey, steelix, and registeel. raikou is a fantastic sweeper though and will often bypass its soft checks but the main point is it had viable counters like venusaur as well.
After the first line, all you're doing is trying to explain that Sleep is better than attacking because it removes a Pokemon, temporarily, from a battle (where as attacking would result in completely removing a Pokemon from the battle). Moltres is not a prediction heavy sweeper. You literally open with Fire Blast and 1-2HKO something. Venusaur opens(?) with Sleep Powder, sleeps something, and then has to play like a weaker Moltres (in a sweeping sense, not in a playstyle sense).Franky said:the difference between another attack and sleep powder is that sleep powder mitigates prediction games and places an opponent in deep slumber for x amount of turns. sleep powder not only easens predictions, it also provides another pokemon to sweep sufficiently easier. venusaur to me lingers between offensive/support characteristics - it can sweep a significant portion of the metagame and can provide oppurutnies to help another teammate sweep via sleep powder.
I am not in favor of banning Venusaur, but this reasoning is horrible. If Groudon checks Metagross well, by your logic, we should unban Groudon for the sake of checking Metagross. If one broken Pokemon is the only thing holding another Pokemon back, then that Pokemon is also suspect-worthy.If you want to send Venusaur to BL your also going to have to boot Milotic because those two go hand in hand with each other. If Venu goes away Milotic usage will sore as its lost its best counter.
In turn if you send Milo away after that UU will be raped by high power fire types eg. Moltres.
If you want UU to stay balanced Venusaur has to stay.
you practically answered your own question - sr is the main drawback with moltres. how does moltres even sweep easily with sr being so omnipresent in the metagame? unlike venusaur, it can switch in without taking a wooping 50 percent and not have to worry about relying on a spinner to actually help it switch into threats and make use of its resistances. lets be honest here, moltres is one shakey motherfuck and if you are planning to switch in grass-type moves it is tough. moltres is placed out of commision by sleep powder or takes a ton of damage from sludge bomb (57% - 67.3%) pure ohko with sr down. sceptile threatens with rock slide or hp rock, while leafeon damages with double-edge or worse gets a +2 on the switch and removes moltres, torterra rock polishes as it switches or gets hurt by rock slide. its that very reason (sr) why venusaur has a much easier time switching into moves and venusaur shines best at switching into defensive walls (the common milotic) and even stuff like hitmontop. moltres grass-resistance is nothing to boast about since grass-types can actually beat it. the ground resistance is nice however, i'll give you that, but that comes with a hefty price of taking 50 percent from sr.Moltres has better defenses, immunity to the most common attack in the game, and resistance to the main attack of the most common Pokemon in the metagame (Venusaur itself). You are flat out incorrect, and to be honest, I have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion. Sure, "Stealth Rock", but we all know you can keep that off the field if you specifically play for it. It doesn't take away from the fact that Moltres is bulkier and has an easy (if not easier) time switching in.
takes sr damage - imo that should be the cutoff point to their comparison. sr destroys moltres's ability to switch into stuff at pristine condition and threaten them back. (see my grass-type scenarios again)."Moltres has sets of important resistances to [the most] common attacking moves and [more than] passable defensive stats on both ends."
not true. venusaur mostly uses synthesis primarily on defensive walls, while moltres has a fair amount of difficulty using it in front of offensive grass-types like leafeon, sceptile, and even venusaur. against donphan, you aren't going to risk roosting on a predicted eq. the sr is applying too much pressure for moltres to even sweep with a slow approach because it needs to muscle its way through raw power.
"Moltres sweeps teams with a slower approach with synthesis, albeit it still packs a punch while doing so."
it removes a pokemon temporarily and easens predictions. moltres needs to predict the switch in. one situation: assuming it takes the sr damage, and you use fire blast on an azumarill, you are placed in a tight position. if moltres had sleep powder, it can place azumarill out of commission and can attack it with a respective move or even use roost to heal! leaf storm + sludge bomb gains excellent neutral coverage in the tier, and it only needs two attacking moves and sleep powder to tear stuff apart.After the first line, all you're doing is trying to explain that Sleep is better than attacking because it removes a Pokemon, temporarily, from a battle (where as attacking would result in completely removing a Pokemon from the battle). Moltres is not a prediction heavy sweeper. You literally open with Fire Blast and 1-2HKO something. Venusaur opens(?) with Sleep Powder, sleeps something, and then has to play like a weaker Moltres (in a sweeping sense, not in a playstyle sense).
The thing with Trick is that it was enough keep Blissey from switching in readily. Sleep Powder, however, is not your one stop cripple for whatever switch-in, because if you remember correctly, sleep lasts for 1-4 turns while Trick lasts for the entire match (Unless Blissey decides to learn Trick next gen, lol). This is not mention that Sleep Powdering a sleep absorber means absolutely jack shit. Oh, and how does Bronzong handle CB Mence, when CB Fire Fang (lol) does 53.25% - 62.72% to standard tank Bronzong, a clear 2HKO. This is not to mention that Cresselia, like Registeel to Raikou was only a one time check to Mence (Moonlight hardly helps you).The same applies to Latias. The Specs set is counterable by Blissey. Trick? You can only Trick once...which is almost like Sleep Powder. Salamence is fully countered by Cresselia unless it's a CB Outrage version, who is handled by Bronzong.
Mmkay, rephrasing:The thing with Trick is that it was enough keep Blissey from switching in readily. Sleep Powder, however, is not your one stop cripple for whatever switch-in, because if you remember correctly, sleep lasts for 1-4 turns while Trick lasts for the entire match (Unless Blissey decides to learn Trick next gen, lol). This is not mention that Sleep Powdering a sleep absorber means absolutely jack shit.