Unpopular opinions

[Pikachu315111]

I don't mind Team Aqua or Magma. I don't think the problem is that they aren't motivated (on the contrary, I think they are, you don't wake an ancient beast to change a planet's ecosystem if you're not dedicated to your cause), but rather I never got a personal reason why they wanted to do it. ORAS tried to do that, but it went more of a philosophical route instead of explaining why.

Archie: Wants to expand the seas because all life came from the seas so wants to reset the world back to its beginnings (hence "Alpha" Sapphire). But why? What experiences in your life makes you think the world needs to reset itself via increasing the amount of water? Archie's philosophy is further expanded upon: giving Pokemon more room to live, believing humans have interfered too much with their natural habitat. Once again, what is the reason behind this belief? Also, while this would be good for the Water-type Pokemon (and Flying-types), what about the land Pokemon? They'll not only be more isolated but with little land which will exist in your water world no doubt many would die due to resources unable to support large populations if not make some species extinct who are unable to adapt due to the total loss of their environment.

Maxie: Wants to expand the land because human development requires land to build on. Okay, a little bit more understandable but once again, what personal experience made you decide there wasn't enough land? Maxie's philosophy extension: In order for humans to further evolve, the era where concerns for Pokemon's environments must end (hence "Omega" Ruby). Okay, so why must we stop concerning over Pokemon's natural environments? I mean, Pokemon aside, we should be concerned about nature since we're as much part of nature as animals/Pokemon are. Also why wouldn't land expansion be good for the land Pokemon? That means more territory for them so they can expand. Even if your intention is that development should not care about what Pokemon is living at the build location, you're not going to use up all the new land immediately.

Now yeah, maybe you aren't suppose to take them entirely serious, but at the same time they are proving to be a threat to the world so I wouldn't mind more explanation to what they have to personally gain from this aside possibly ruling the new world (which obviously isn't their reason to do this, more of a necessity they need to do in order for their new world to work in their head)?

 

[Altissimo]

I don't find Magma and Aqua funny because as a person who knows several environmentalists who've worked for environmental groups, this is not a joking matter. And as I said, joking doesn't get the theme across.

its a fictional game tho

the relationship of rse's ecoterrorism issues to real-world ecoterrorism issues is hilariously nonexistent, i mean the real world doesnt have long-sleeping behemoths you can awaken to change the fundamental balance of weather patterns etc

i mean i get where you're coming from but also its a fictional game with no semblance of connection to the real world

(and to clarify that's not saying i think you're wrong for not wanting them to be joke teams; if you want your evil teams to always be serious i mean that's fine and i get that, i'm just saying that i think saying they shouldn't be joke teams because real world ecoterrorism is serious may be stretching it a bit)

 

[stage7_4]

its a fictional game tho

Yes, but people will take their perceptions from other media and use them to justify their opinions in reality. Nothing exists in a vacuum, every piece of media has ripple effects on something else. Being fictional doesn't make you above that.

While the original R/S/E might be a fairly benign version, portraying eco-terrorists as comical is still a problematic portrayal if mishandled. And I do believe that Magma/Aqua are a bad portrayal, but less because they are comical and more because it's a pretty lazy story that seems more to be a placeholder without actually challenging the viewer. I'm also not convinced the game creators intended a comical portrayal in R/S/E, just accidentally made one.

Compare to ORAS which gives greater emphasis on comedy and sympathy of both teams, creating a dissonance between reality and the fantasy world. They also added more background elements to heighten the environmental themes (the story of Sea Mauvile, the Hoenn eco-friendly power rangers, and even Zinnia's stoopid speeches about making world altering decisions in a crisis for the sake of security). This altogether imparts a stronger pro-environment message than R/S/E, while at the same time strengthening the dividing line between ecoterrorism and environmental activist.

Don't take this too seriously, as I think R/S/E is more clumsy than poor taste and it's not wrong if you prefer it or like the story. But also remember that every work of fiction springs from the mind of some human being, so it is impossible to separate fiction entirely from real-world influences.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

I don't mind Team Aqua or Magma. I don't think the problem is that they aren't motivated (on the contrary, I think they are, you don't wake an ancient beast to change a planet's ecosystem if you're not dedicated to your cause), but rather I never got a personal reason why they wanted to do it. ORAS tried to do that, but it went more of a philosophical route instead of explaining why.

DING DING DING - I knew they hadn't any personal reason. That's why I didn't believed they really cared. I mean, combined with the hilarious incompetency, and the two teams just look stupid. The philosophical route didn't work out for them either - too basic and stupid and it made the two look even more incompetent.

its a fictional game tho

the relationship of rse's ecoterrorism issues to real-world ecoterrorism issues is hilariously nonexistent, i mean the real world doesnt have long-sleeping behemoths you can awaken to change the fundamental balance of weather patterns etc

i mean i get where you're coming from but also its a fictional game with no semblance of connection to the real world

(and to clarify that's not saying i think you're wrong for not wanting them to be joke teams; if you want your evil teams to always be serious i mean that's fine and i get that, i'm just saying that i think saying they shouldn't be joke teams because real world ecoterrorism is serious may be stretching it a bit)

I'm pretty certain it's symbolic of SOMETHING. I'll edit this later when I have more time, but it even could be a statement on climate change.
Also, what stage 7_4 said. They pretty much summed it up entirely perfectly. Like, ^ all the way.
And here's another "unpopular" (idk if it really is hence the "") opinion: The timeline split was retarded and should have never happened. Again, I'll edit when I have more time.

 

[Pikachu315111]

DING DING DING - I knew they hadn't any personal reason. That's why I didn't believed they really cared. I mean, combined with the hilarious incompetency, and the two teams just look stupid. The philosophical route didn't work out for them either - too basic and stupid and it made the two look even more incompetent.

Not that they don't have a personal reason, we're just never told it. They have to have a personal reason, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

And here's another "unpopular" (idk if it really is hence the "") opinion: The timeline split was retarded and should have never happened. Again, I'll edit when I have more time.

I agree, it's a needless complication. Worst, one reason it was done was to make Zinnia "right" by pulling on a player's nostalgia.

Honestly, before she revealed the other world she was talking about was RSE, I actually thought she sort of had a legitimate argument (note I also thought the Link Cable was going to teleport the meteor around the planet and not to another dimension). Though we dodged the meteor, that's still a 4 mile long meteor hurling through space and we might be dooming another inhabited planet. Maybe we should destroy the meteor than, while we might live could we live with the guilt of causing a death of another race...

Zinnia: And this other world is an alternate Hoenn, the Hoenn of the Gameboy Advance era! YOU WILL BE DESTROYING YOUR NOSTALGIA!

... Oh, yeah, cause I'm sure if I teleport the meteor away my copy of Sapphire version and memories of it will vanish from existence.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

Not that they don't have a personal reason, we're just never told it. They have to have a personal reason, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

To me, Maxie acted as though it were just another job (I never played Sapphire or AS, but I've heard Archie is similar). It felt like not as though he had a reason that was never given, but that he just never had a reason at all outside of money. I can see how that plays to the theme now, but I still dislike having a villainous team that impersonal, even if it makes sense.

I agree, it's a needless complication. Worst, one reason it was done was to make Zinnia "right" by pulling on a player's nostalgia.

Honestly, before she revealed the other world she was talking about was RSE, I actually thought she sort of had a legitimate argument (note I also thought the Link Cable was going to teleport the meteor around the planet and not to another dimension). Though we dodged the meteor, that's still a 4 mile long meteor hurling through space and we might be dooming another inhabited planet. Maybe we should destroy the meteor than, while we might live could we live with the guilt of causing a death of another race...

Zinnia: And this other world is an alternate Hoenn, the Hoenn of the Gameboy Advance era! YOU WILL BE DESTROYING YOUR NOSTALGIA!

... Oh, yeah, cause I'm sure if I teleport the meteor away my copy of Sapphire version and memories of it will vanish from existence.

Are we allowed to talk about making a petition to make Nintendo declare this non-canon, or will the mods stop us? Just an innocent question here.

 

[Pikachu315111]

To me, Maxie acted as though it were just another job (I never played Sapphire or AS, but I've heard Archie is similar). It felt like not as though he had a reason that was never given, but that he just never had a reason at all outside of money. I can see how that plays to the theme now, but I still dislike having a villainous team that impersonal, even if it makes sense.

Maxie I can understand it feeling like he wasn't invested, he's suppose to be the logical type that doesn't show much emotion. Archie, however, is actually more emotional, his nickname for your character is "Scamp" and his battle intro is him holding up his Mega Anchor with a gleeful smile:

(This is a person who loves his job)

In addition you also see some more emotion for Maxie after Archie defeats him and is about to awaken Kyogre. Maxie is kneeled over on the ground and is begging Archie to stop. Though not sure where you got the money thing, never was money mentioned. They're doing this because they believe its for the best, there's no secret intention behind their goal like with Cyrus or Ghetsis.

Are we allowed to talk about making a petition to make Nintendo declare this non-canon, or will the mods stop us? Just an innocent question here.

Not sure if it's allowed or not, but it's pointless. They're not going to change it, and it doesn't really matter as GF is just going to do what they want. Besides, we're never going back to the original timelines aside from re-releases on the Virtual Shop (all future remakes will be in the Mega Timeline) so honestly the timeline split means very little aside from some story potentials like with the Fallers.

 

[stage7_4]

Well there's always the mystery thread (*cough*shamlessplugbytheOP*).

And not to quote arguments made there, but alternate timelines have been lingering in the background since pokemon's inception (how else do you justify trading one-of-a-kind Mewtwo's with your friends, other than "gameplay and story segregation"?). Zinnia just took a hammer to the nail.

But given that Gamefreak is, has, and will probably remain tight lipped about timelines, any true confirmation about the "mega vs. no-mega" timeline is really just fanon. All we absolutely know at this time is:

1. Zinnia "suggests" sending the meteor away will make it hit an alternate Hoenn that may or may not have the means to stop it. But Zinnia is a hobo that thought causing a national ecological disaster was a good Plan A to awaken the dragon god, and would rather give you a concussion than just wait for the right time, are we really going to take little miss queen of the Mary Sue's at her word? I don't see a doctorate on her. Probably got all her theories from Puff the magic dragon.

if you know what I mean

The song by Peter, Paul, and Mary, obviously. What did you think I meant?

2. Anabel is a "faller" in Sun/Moon. We don't actually know where she fell from, just that she did. The game implies it was from an Emerald timeline with a battle frontier, but confirmation is left open.

3. There's a parallel Alola you can visit with reversed day/night cycles and a Cosmog.

4. Using Entralink you could visit parallel Unova's in Black/White. Not that anybody ever used this feature.

5. The soundtrack to Heather's is super catchy and I still can't get it out of my head. GOT NO TIME TO TALK, I'M A DEAD GIRL WALKIN'!

Other than the all encompassing absolution of point #5, the rest are more a soft shoulder shrug from Gamefreak, bound and determined to treat the timeline fast and loose and do whatever they want with it.

You know, like Gamefreak always does. Seriously, do you want this to become Zelda pre-Hyrule Historia? I fought in the fan wars and was scarred for life!

historic image of the fan wars here

 

[Codraroll]

Here's my unpopular opinion on canon and timelines: Pretending that they even exist and that the games are designed with coherence in mind is pointless to begin with. At best, we get excuses for some inconsistencies or plot holes, or some vague shout-outs to earlier games, but they are obviously not written to make sense as a unified whole. Gameplay and story are segregated, and story consistency inside a game is given much higher priority than story consistency between games.

 

[Hyper Cutter]

1. Zinnia "suggests" sending the meteor away will make it hit an alternate Hoenn that may or may not have the means to stop it. But Zinnia is a hobo that thought causing a national ecological disaster was a good Plan A to awaken the dragon god

I mean, she's not wrong, considering that's basically what happened in Emerald...

 

[stage7_4]

I mean, she's not wrong, considering that's basically what happened in Emerald...

Point taken, begrudgingly.

I know it's not an unpopular opinion but I really don't like Zinnia. The weaknesses and strengths of the Delta Episode can be drawn with a line between "involved Zinnia" and "didn't."

 

[noobcubed]

Oh, I thought most people liked Zinnia.

In that case I can bag "I think Zinnina is frigging awesome" as an unpopular opinion.

On what is and isn't canon - for crying out loud. Why can't games be self-contained? That's clearly how they are designed - if I'm supposed to play them all in order like some sequential story then why do I have to keep playing the same tedious catch tutorial every game?

 

[SkullBandanaInkling]

I don't think Lopunny/Gardevoir are attractive at all. I'm not saying they're them ugly, I just don't get why everyone keeps sexualizing them and calling them "waifu" and stuff like that.

 

[thdhted]

I don't think Lopunny/Gardevoir are attractive at all. I'm not saying they're them ugly, I just don't get why everyone keeps sexualizing them and calling them "waifu" and stuff like that.

Rule 36 of the Internet: "If it exists, someone has a fetish for it. No exceptions."
People are people, and some of them are weird, it's that simple.

 

[Heracr055]

I missed the Team Magma and Aqua discussion but wanted to mention a few things (I'm more knowledgeable about Magma, so I'll comment on them):

1) The grunts seem pretty motivated at their level for the cause, at least. I recall one grunt talking about building a house on cooled magma. There's another who tries explaining the logic to the protagonist (something like more land=more places to live for people and Mons, "Everybody will be happy!"), so he seems enamoured with the idea. So the organization seemed motivated as Pika already touched on.
2) I think Magma cam be taken somewhat seriously, at least more than Galactic. Recall in Emerald that Magma infiltrated the Space Center in Mossdeep with plans to steal jet fuel, for the purpose of dumping it into Mr. Chimney to force an eruption (Maxie says 'It will be savage!'). This seems like a very heinous act. And yes, I know Galactic used bombs to blow up lakes and threaten to blow up a town, but I feel their organization is too goofy and outlandish, not to mention having a detached and bland leader in Cyrus.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

 

[stage7_4]

2) I think Magma cam be taken somewhat seriously, at least more than Galactic. Recall in Emerald that Magma infiltrated the Space Center in Mossdeep with plans to steal jet fuel, for the purpose of dumping it into Mr. Chimney to force an eruption (Maxie says 'It will be savage!'). This seems like a very heinous act. And yes, I know Galactic used bombs to blow up lakes and threaten to blow up a town, but I feel their organization is too goofy and outlandish, not to mention having a detached and bland leader in Cyrus.

And it's completely okay if you feel that way, but I got the exact opposite reaction from those two events.

Magma stealing jet fuel to force a volcano to erupt just sounds silly and makes these scientists look like they are failing basic geology (fact: it's more about pressure than heat). So the act to me comes across as "oh boy, these guys have no idea what they are doing."

Galactic however actually did blow up 3 lakes and you get to walk through one while all the magikarp flop about and are implied to be dying (probably not because it's Gamefreak but still). This shows "Oh no, these crazies are serious" much better than Magma's mostly implied threats. Magma's only accomplishment in awakening Groudon is subverted immediately by Maxie's "oops I dun goofed" moment. While opinions on Cyrus may differ, at least he knew what he was doing the entire time (Platinum excluded, but only partially).

Plus I don't really see how the organization is goofy and outlandish. Is it the bowl cuts?

It is a bit hard to take someone seriously when they look like that. Guess the design department threw all the budget into a kickbutt battle theme:

 

[Taistelu]

The main draw of Aqua/Magma is that they aren't motivated by entirely evil desires, in my opinion (contrast to Rocket, Neo Plasma and Galactic). I know some people dislike the whole "misguided ecoterrorist" idea but I think it gives the team more depth. As Heracr055 said, the grunts are motivated and believe in their cause, whereas the Team Galactic grunts were just being strung along by Cyrus.

The other thing I like about Aqua/Magma is the two team dynamic where depending on the version you were with one and against the other (or against both in the case of Emerald). I think this allows for a better plot. I enjoy the dynamic and it allows the plot to vary more between the two versions, giving me more motivation to actually buy both (now if the plot was as well written as SuMo, I think we'd be in for something golden). The only other time this was really attempted was SuMo, where Team Skull was revealed to be working with the Aether Foundation where it was pulled off pretty well.

That said, not sure if this qualifies as "unpopular" but I'd rather Aether wasn't dominant over Team Skull. I guess I just prefer Team Skull over the Aether Foundation and I cared much more about them than I ever would for the Aether foundation (Po Town is where I really started paying attention, one of the best Pokemon locations, but that's for another time).

 

[Heracr055]

"Plus I don't really see how the organization is goofy and outlandish"

Ahem...(will prob misquote but whatevs):

"Hand over that sweet Honey! We must use it to attract Pokemon in great numbers!"

"Team Galactic fights for ideals so big I don't understand them! I'll fight blindly for them...!" (Grunt in Eterna's Galactic tower)

Their structure doesn't seem anchored in a clear goal, and the goal and work being done isn't quite clear to some Grunts you encounter. This makes Galactic seem less unified in their quest than other groups.

And I don't think Team Skull is necessarily inferior to Aether Foundation. It really is comparing apples to oranges since Aether was under the guise of being humanitarians (Pokematerians?), whereas Team Skull was invented primarily as a middle finger to the Trial process in Alola.

 

[Taistelu]

And I don't think Team Skull is necessarily inferior to Aether Foundation. It really is comparing apples to oranges since Aether was under the guise of being humanitarians (Pokematerians?), whereas Team Skull was invented primarily as a middle finger to the Trial process in Alola.

This is true, I guess I just didn't like how Aether stole the spotlight later on. I know its important for the sake of story and a rewrite would probably lead to a worse story, but I feel like Team Skull should've been a bit more important at the end. As I said, it's probably just because I prefer Team Skull over Aether. I prefer the cast of characters from Skull than I do Aether (who only really had Lusamine as a stand-out. Wicke was pretty bland and Faba was pretty generic).

 

[Pikachu315111]

Team Galactic does fall on the lower end of the Pokemon Villain Team scale, mainly due to them not really have a unifying theme for their members to fall under:

Team Rocket: Make money and being in charge.
Team Aqua/Magma: Increase the seas/landmass for the good of people and Pokemon.
Team Galactic: Um, something about energy?
Team Plasma: Freeing Pokemon from their slave owner trainers.
Team Neo Plasma: Rule the world.
Team Flare: Cleanse the world and become immortal.
Team Skull: Rage against society.
Aether Foundation: Pokemon humanitarian group.

Team Galactic did have this underlying thing of creating/finding a new energy source but it doesn't really go anywhere. But it is something to latch onto so maybe in Sinnoh Remakes they could expand on that to give Galactic members something to rally themselves too.

 

[Siggu]

IIRC all Team Galactic grunts and a few admins had no idea what the actual goal was (didn't Cyrus outright tell the player that in Platinum, after his speech?) - they really thought they were developing better forms of energy, which is what Saturn (one of those few oblivious admins) promises to do after everything is solved.

Now, how Cyrus managed to get away with such a facade with hardly anyone suspecting is beyond any explanation.

 

[Heracr055]

I believe Team Galactic was about harnessing the power created during Pokemon evolution (they say as they fight mostly with NFEs like Zubat, Glameow, Stunky and Croagunk).

Pika, I think another team that should be mentioned is the post-Giovanni Team Rocket of GSC/HGSS. They did try to profit off a Slowpoketail black market and charging people traveling to Lake of Rage; however, their primary mission was to try and bring Giovanni back (the Mahogany Town signals being a test run for their Goldenrod heist later on iirc).

 

[stage7_4]

Yeah, I'll admit most of the charm of Team Galactic comes from the upper leadership and not the grunts. Also don't want to come across as a major defender of them either, they're not even in my top tier really.

But I still don't see how they are any more goofy or outlandish than the other teams, but that's just a difference of opinion at this point.

By the way, from least fave to best:
Original Aqua/Magma < Team Flare < Neo Team Plasma < Team Galactic < Team Plasma Ghetsis < ORAS Aqua/Magma < Team Rocket < Team Skull < That one Plasma Grunt that plays double agent in B2W2 help you.

a true Unovian hero

 

[Altissimo]

Magma stealing jet fuel to force a volcano to erupt just sounds silly and makes these scientists look like they are failing basic geology (fact: it's more about pressure than heat).

Not to mention, the plan was to erupt the volcano in the hopes that the flowing lava would harden and form more land for Pokémon to live in... except the volcano is rather far from water, meaning it would just... cover existing land with "land" lmao

 

[lucariomaster2]

Not to mention, the plan was to erupt the volcano in the hopes that the flowing lava would harden and form more land for Pokémon to live in... except the volcano is rather far from water, meaning it would just... cover existing land with "land" lmao

I honestly think that Team Aqua's plan with the Meteorite was in a way even more ridiculous: they wanted to make the volcano inactive so that it would fill with rainwater.

Uhh... okay? What's wrong with that, exactly? Hell, I support the idea; mountaintop lakes are beautiful in my opinion. I guess Mt. Chimney would be Hoenn's main tourist attraction / cultural landmark which would be destroyed, but it seems a tad tame compared to Magma wanting to make the volcano erupt (and thereby remove a good chunk of Hoenn from existence).