Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[ILoveMilk]

Here's a bold statement: Articuno deserves to be C rank, It has a god-tier ability, access to reliable recovery and STAB Ice coverage. You might be wondering “Now why use Articuno over other similiar mons?” Well it is able to pressure stall as well as destroy rain. In this post I'll show why Articuno deserves C rank as it is on par if not better than mons like Omastar in C rank.


I’ll start with what is generally considered Articuno’s best and most reliable set, it’s Sub Roost set,

Articuno @ Leftovers

Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Roost
- Freeze-Dry
- Hidden Power [Ground]/ Ice Beam

This set allows it to beat most rain teams with chip on swampert as well as outspeeding and OHKOing Landrous-Therian and Zygarde-50%, thanks to access to STAB Freeze Dry as well as allowing Articuno to defeat most mons that otherwise wall it through pressure such as Ferrothorn, as ferrothorn’s lacking gyroball fail to break cuno’s sub and are pp stalled out and heatran. Here are some Calcs to illustrate this.

Calcs

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Pelipper: 360-424 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Articuno in Rain: 237-280 (61.8 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Articuno in Rain: 295-348 (77 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 304-360 (104.1 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Articuno Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 72-85 (20.4 - 24.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Articuno: 66-78 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 348-412 (109 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Articuno Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 388-460 (108.3 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

This is something Zapdos fails to achieve as well as vincune.


Having said all that let’s take a look at articuno’s stats, 90/100/125 bulk is impressive, being even bulkier than mew or suicune, which allows it to switch into a CB zygarde’s attack and OHKO it back. It’s 95 special attack is also decent enough to be able to dent the mons that articuno needs to dent. It’s 85 speed also allows it to outspeed Ada Lando and Zygarde if cuno runs timid, allowing it to OHKO them before they are able to land a hit on it.


Now even if you’re still not convinced by this, lets take a look at the S and A+ mons, Articuno is able to beat in a 1v1 landorous, dugtrio, ash gren pre ash, heatran, tapu bulu and zygarde. That’s 6 out of 11 of the top threats in the metagame! In fact Articuno is able to comfortably switch into zygarde and threaten it out.

calcs

252 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 246-290 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Articuno: 252-297 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Articuno Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.

252 SpA Articuno Hidden Power Ground vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 204-240 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

32+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Articuno: 252-296 (78.5 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

However you might be wondering, jeez why don’t we put Articuno for A- then?

Well it does have it’s flaws. Ice/Flying is not the best typing and it is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, thus requiring heavy hazard control on it’s side. Articuno also isn’t the strongest mon, forcing it to rely on PP stalling to beat some mons like Heatran and Ferrothorn. Finally Cuno invites in set up sweepers such as Mega Scizor, Volcarona and Magearnea in for free. All in all though Articuno’s positives overcome it’s negatives.


Here are some replays to show it’s effectiveness in the metagame

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-611779837

Here you can see Articuno is able to live a +1 STAB outrage from Zygarde and kill it with freeze dry, showing articuno’s bulk and ability to wall Zygarde.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-611775954

Articuno is able to eliminate Landorous, a huge threat to this team as well as Chipping away at Chandelure, allowing Alolan Marowak and Zygarde to sweep the opponents team.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603527848

Here Articuno is able to essentially 6-0 this Rain Team with ease, even living a sheer force boosted Thunder from NidoKing. Demonstrating Articuno’s effectiveness against rain.


In Conclusion, although Articuno is not perfect, It’s access to STAB freezedry, sub/roost and pressure along with it’s ability to easily dismantle rain, is enough to give it a niche in the OU metagame, and as such should warrant a spot in the C section of the Viability Rankings.

Shoutouts to Scarf Nihilego, TeamCali15, StraightEdgeNexus, and RIP

 

[Primal Bidoof]

Here's a bold statement: Articuno deserves to be C rank, It has a god-tier ability, access to reliable recovery and STAB Ice coverage. You might be wondering “Now why use Articuno over other similiar mons?” Well it is able to pressure stall as well as destroy rain. In this post I'll show why Articuno deserves C rank as it is on par if not better than mons like Omastar in C rank.


I’ll start with what is generally considered Articuno’s best and most reliable set, it’s Sub Roost set,

Articuno @ Leftovers

Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Roost
- Freeze-Dry
- Hidden Power [Ground]/ Ice Beam

This set allows it to beat most rain teams with chip on swampert as well as outspeeding and OHKOing Landrous-Therian and Zygarde-50%, thanks to access to STAB Freeze Dry as well as allowing Articuno to defeat most mons that otherwise wall it through pressure such as Ferrothorn, as ferrothorn’s lacking gyroball fail to break cuno’s sub and are pp stalled out and heatran. Here are some Calcs to illustrate this.

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Pelipper: 360-424 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Articuno in Rain: 237-280 (61.8 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Articuno in Rain: 295-348 (77 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 304-360 (104.1 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Articuno Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 72-85 (20.4 - 24.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Articuno: 66-78 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 348-412 (109 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Articuno Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 388-460 (108.3 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

This is something Zapdos fails to achieve as well as vincune.


Having said all that let’s take a look at articuno’s stats, 90/100/125 bulk is impressive, being even bulkier than mew or suicune, which allows it to switch into a CB zygarde’s attack and OHKO it back. It’s 95 special attack is also decent enough to be able to dent the mons that articuno needs to dent. It’s 85 speed also allows it to outspeed Ada Lando and Zygarde if cuno runs timid, allowing it to OHKO them before they are able to land a hit on it.


Now even if you’re still not convinced by this, lets take a look at the S and A+ mons, Articuno is able to beat in a 1v1 landorous, dugtrio, ash gren pre ash, heatran, tapu bulu and zygarde. That’s 6 out of 11 of the top threats in the metagame! In fact Articuno is able to comfortably switch into zygarde and threaten it out.

252 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 246-290 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Articuno: 252-297 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Articuno Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.

252 SpA Articuno Hidden Power Ground vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 204-240 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

32+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Articuno: 252-296 (78.5 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


However you might be wondering, jeez why don’t we put Articuno for A- then?

Well it does have it’s flaws. Ice/Flying is not the best typing and it is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, thus requiring heavy hazard control on it’s side. Articuno also isn’t the strongest mon, forcing it to rely on PP stalling to beat some mons like Heatran and Ferrothorn. Finally Cuno invites in set up sweepers such as Mega Scizor, Volcarona and Magearnea in for free. All in all though Articuno’s positives overcome it’s negatives.


Here are some replays to show it’s effectiveness in the metagame

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-611779837

Here you can see Articuno is able to live a +1 STAB outrage from Zygarde and kill it with freeze dry, showing articuno’s bulk and ability to wall Zygarde.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-611775954

Articuno is able to eliminate Landorous, a huge threat to this team as well as Chipping away at Chandelure, allowing Alolan Marowak and Zygarde to sweep the opponents team.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603527848

Here Articuno is able to essentially 6-0 this Rain Team with ease, even living a sheer force boosted Thunder from NidoKing. Demonstrating Articuno’s effectiveness against rain.


In Conclusion, although Articuno is not perfect, It’s access to STAB freezedry, sub/roost and pressure along with it’s ability to easily dismantle rain, is enough to give it a niche in the OU metagame, and as such should warrant a spot in the C section of the Viability Rankings.

Shoutouts to Scarf Nihilego, TeamCali15, StraightEdgeNexus, and RIP

I love how you are being biased as if the articuno user has the advantage, you get rocks on the ash greninja but they dont on you? That would secure the ko for them also. Articuno is a garbage pokemon, loses to common mons like celesteela magearna tapu koko, and it cant switch into the aforementioned pokemon like heatran, greninja, and zygarde. It can't reliably pp stall heatran, and it loses to gyro ball ferrothorn which is mostly used on it, I see knock gyro ball, leech seed and spikes/rocks. Your problem is, is that articuno can barely switch into half these mons listed, making it a very unreliable check to them. its not easy to have powerful hazard control and have a slow volt/u turn user to get it in safely, hoping a mon doesnt setup on it while doing so. If you look at the entire C and C- rank, and compare articuno and each and every mon together in the meta, those mons have a better niche than articuno, which it barely even has one at all. Also as a subroost user it is outclassed by kyurem easily. It has no place on offensive nor defensive teams. I disagree with articuno to C rank.

 

[ILoveMilk]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there, I also find you a bit condescending by calling something garbage, I've never said articuno beats Koko, mag , or celesteela there's a reason it's nommed for C not B, also Articuno can pp stall Gyros from ferro, and alot of ferros don't run gyro nowadays in favor of knock/whip. Also articuno is able to outstalls Heatran since the only attacking moves most trans run to hit cuno with is magma which it can sub over and over on since it outspeeds. Also articuno separates itself from Kyurem by having a ground immunity freeze dry and a solid check to zygarde, yes Articuno does require hazard control but that is again why it's C. Please don't be so condescending

 

[Yahooboo]

I love how you are being biased as if the articuno user has the advantage, you get rocks on the ash greninja but they dont on you? That would secure the ko for them also. Articuno is a garbage pokemon, loses to common mons like celesteela magearna tapu koko, and it cant switch into the aforementioned pokemon like heatran, greninja, and zygarde. It can't reliably pp stall heatran, and it loses to gyro ball ferrothorn which is mostly used on it, I see knock gyro ball, leech seed and spikes/rocks. Your problem is, is that articuno can barely switch into half these mons listed, making it a very unreliable check to them. its not easy to have powerful hazard control and have a slow volt/u turn user to get it in safely, hoping a mon doesnt setup on it while doing so. If you look at the entire C and C- rank, and compare articuno and each and every mon together in the meta, those mons have a better niche than articuno, which it barely even has one at all. Also as a subroost user it is outclassed by kyurem easily. It has no place on offensive nor defensive teams. I disagree with articuno to C rank.

the advantage over kyurem is freeze dry
also kyurem would've died to outrage

 

[Primal Bidoof]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there, I also find you a bit condescending by calling something garbage, I've never said articuno beats Koko, mag , or celesteela there's a reason it's nommed for C not B, also Articuno can pp stall Gyros from ferro, and alot of ferros don't run gyro nowadays in favor of knock/whip. Also articuno is able to outstalls Heatran since the only attacking moves most trans run to hit cuno with is magma which it can sub over and over on since it outspeeds. Articuno does require hazard control yes but that is again why it's C. Please don't be so condescending

Im sorry, can you even read? I never said you said it beats those mons, I said they are common mons it doesnt beat, giving it a huge issue. And I never said anything relating for it being towards B, so thats also irrelevant to the post. Articuno also has 0 wcop usage, and seen any success on ladder, unlike other mons like infernape and camerupt, which saw small wcop usage and had a good point to back it up. Honestly I think of it as a troll nom at this point with how dumb it sounds.

 

[ILoveMilk]

and it cant switch into the aforementioned pokemon like heatran, greninja, and zygarde.

It's sad that you too have to resort to personal attacks to prove your point you also say it can't switch in too Zygarde when I showed in my replays it actually can, did you actually read it or decide because I nommed articuno it gave you an excuse to attack me. Please don't attack me when I've shown the upmost respect to your posts despite your rudeness

 

[Primal Bidoof]

It's sad that you too have to resort to personal attacks to prove your point you also say it can't switch it Zygarde when I showed in my replays it actually can. Please don't attack me when I've shown the upmost respect to your posts despite your rudeness

How am I personally attacking you in any way? I'm pretty sure saying mons it can't switch into is a personal attack. I'm not even being rude in my posts, you are making it sound like i'm not allowed to disagree with you.

 

[robopoke]

The only thing I can see Articuno having an advantage over Sub Roost Kyurem is being able to switch into Zygardes. But honestly, you do not want to use a x4 rocks weak mon as a switch-in to one of the best Pokemons in the tier.

The Groundimmunity is not that big of a deal because Kyurem can easily switch into Landorus-T anyway and Rockium Z variants beat Articuno 100%, while Kyurem outspeeds and Ice Beam.
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 195-229 (46.7 - 54.9%)

Freeze Dry does hit some mons in rain really hard but the funny part is you cannot even check them with your spread.

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%)
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Articuno in Rain: 219-258 (68.2 - 80.3%)

While you do OHKO Kingdra and eat even Specs Pumps in Rain why do you claim all you need is Articuno and the Matchup is easy? Your opponent with this replay already showed what kind of a player he is. I mean, he let you burn his Azu, Z-Freeze Shock Kyurem and you claim Articuno 6-0ed this Rain team. Articuno was only on the field for like 10 turns of the whole 80 and it would be less if you did not freeze the Skarmory lol.


If I were to suggest an Articuno rise (I wouldnt, but lets say I was blinded) my first paragraph would be about why Articuno can be an alternative to other Pressurestallers. I would not only look at Suicune but also at SubRoost Kyurem and at this point I would probably delete my post before ever clicking on "Post reply". Kyurem is faster, stronger, has Earth Power, checks much more in the metagame with his Dragon/Ice Typing can switch into much more while not being x4 weak to Rocks.



edit:
Answer to the post from Azx below:
No, Landorus-T is faster than Articuno and kills you with Stone Edge. At this point everyone is and should use Jolly Landorus-T.

You can switch into Zygarde if Rocks arent up. Even if Rocks arent up, you still lose to DD+Z-Outrage. Why are you insisting so much that you can use Articuno to deal with Zygarde when it clearly does not?

Also nominating a mon to C and using "it is better than mon X who is also C" is one of the worst arguments. Look at the whole C rank and not just at one mon. Also Kyurem is in C and if you think that Articuno deserves the same ranking as Kyurem then I do not see any reason to continue being serious with you.

 

[ILoveMilk]

I really appreciate the fact that you replied seriously and brought up valid points, I must say that in a 1v1 with rockium Z Lando articuno can easily pp stall the 8 edges it has as well as the fact that it's 80 accuracy gives it a not insignificant chance of missing. kyurem also cannot beat Zygarde, while Articuno can. I certainly think it's better than Omastar

 

[TheMohZone]

Here's a bold statement: Articuno deserves to be C rank, It has a god-tier ability, access to reliable recovery and STAB Ice coverage. You might be wondering “Now why use Articuno over other similiar mons?” Well it is able to pressure stall as well as destroy rain. In this post I'll show why Articuno deserves C rank as it is on par if not better than mons like Omastar in C rank.


I’ll start with what is generally considered Articuno’s best and most reliable set, it’s Sub Roost set,

Articuno @ Leftovers

Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Roost
- Freeze-Dry
- Hidden Power [Ground]/ Ice Beam

This set allows it to beat most rain teams with chip on swampert as well as outspeeding and OHKOing Landrous-Therian and Zygarde-50%, thanks to access to STAB Freeze Dry as well as allowing Articuno to defeat most mons that otherwise wall it through pressure such as Ferrothorn, as ferrothorn’s lacking gyroball fail to break cuno’s sub and are pp stalled out and heatran. Here are some Calcs to illustrate this.

Calcs

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Pelipper: 360-424 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Articuno in Rain: 237-280 (61.8 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Articuno in Rain: 295-348 (77 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 304-360 (104.1 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Articuno Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 72-85 (20.4 - 24.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Articuno: 66-78 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 348-412 (109 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Articuno Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 388-460 (108.3 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

This is something Zapdos fails to achieve as well as vincune.


Having said all that let’s take a look at articuno’s stats, 90/100/125 bulk is impressive, being even bulkier than mew or suicune, which allows it to switch into a CB zygarde’s attack and OHKO it back. It’s 95 special attack is also decent enough to be able to dent the mons that articuno needs to dent. It’s 85 speed also allows it to outspeed Ada Lando and Zygarde if cuno runs timid, allowing it to OHKO them before they are able to land a hit on it.


Now even if you’re still not convinced by this, lets take a look at the S and A+ mons, Articuno is able to beat in a 1v1 landorous, dugtrio, ash gren pre ash, heatran, tapu bulu and zygarde. That’s 6 out of 11 of the top threats in the metagame! In fact Articuno is able to comfortably switch into zygarde and threaten it out.

calcs

252 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 246-290 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Articuno: 252-297 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Articuno Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.

252 SpA Articuno Hidden Power Ground vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 204-240 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

32+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Articuno: 252-296 (78.5 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

However you might be wondering, jeez why don’t we put Articuno for A- then?

Well it does have it’s flaws. Ice/Flying is not the best typing and it is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, thus requiring heavy hazard control on it’s side. Articuno also isn’t the strongest mon, forcing it to rely on PP stalling to beat some mons like Heatran and Ferrothorn. Finally Cuno invites in set up sweepers such as Mega Scizor, Volcarona and Magearnea in for free. All in all though Articuno’s positives overcome it’s negatives.


Here are some replays to show it’s effectiveness in the metagame

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-611779837

Here you can see Articuno is able to live a +1 STAB outrage from Zygarde and kill it with freeze dry, showing articuno’s bulk and ability to wall Zygarde.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-611775954

Articuno is able to eliminate Landorous, a huge threat to this team as well as Chipping away at Chandelure, allowing Alolan Marowak and Zygarde to sweep the opponents team.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603527848

Here Articuno is able to essentially 6-0 this Rain Team with ease, even living a sheer force boosted Thunder from NidoKing. Demonstrating Articuno’s effectiveness against rain.


In Conclusion, although Articuno is not perfect, It’s access to STAB freezedry, sub/roost and pressure along with it’s ability to easily dismantle rain, is enough to give it a niche in the OU metagame, and as such should warrant a spot in the C section of the Viability Rankings.

Shoutouts to Scarf Nihilego, TeamCali15, StraightEdgeNexus, and RIP

Well put together post but...i honestly don't see the point when Alolan Ninetails exists.

Articuno hits harder than Ninetails, thats true. Also true is that its bulkier. However, Ninetails isn't 4x weak to stealth rocks, which even with the rise of Mew are still nigh omnipresent. The calcs you provide are impressive but how many of them turn into OHKOs on Articuno with Rocks up? Having Sub on a mon like this, even with Roost, seems counterproductive as way too much of the time rocks ARE gonna be up).

Since we are talking about Articuno in a context against rain (as Articuno facing most of the S and A+ tier 1v1 and winning isn't really that feasible a reason to make it rise imo, when its so weak to rocks), Ninetails does that job better thanks to Snow Warning, meaning its free to Set up an Aurora Veil or Freeze Dry itself (Which, while not as strong as Articunos, still hits plenty hard). Since the Rains gone the foes Rain Team is going to go on the back foot until they put it back up again (Probably switching to something like Ferro as you set up Veil)

Articuno may be able to take on Rain teams pretty well (and i doubt its quite that easy given the replay), if your opponent doesn't get rocks up, but Ninetails neuters them if you play it well. With the latter existing, i don't think the former needs to go up.

It doesn't help that, unlike Ninetails, its dead weight if your opponent isn't using Rain. Ninetails, in a worst matchup scenario, can still possibly set up Veil.

Whats Articuno supposed to do if your opponent has Magearna? That things everywhere and Eats Articuno alive, and while you can use Duggy for it, that means you need Duggy and Mew just to use Articuno and potentially beat rain. its not like its Volc or Char-Y where its obviously worth that effort.

As for Pressure stall...is that still a niche people actually look to exploit? I can't see a reason to use it over Kyurem as pointed out already.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

I'm sorry, but I think I'm going to request something similar to what happened in Ubers and ask for the thread to be locked. SM Ubers had this problem when people began posting shitty noms and despite the moderator's efforts it didn't end. The locking worked in saving the thread. Ever since the last update, it's been nothing but shitty noms and toxic discussion. Can we please lock this thread for a while?

 

[TURBODERP]

I'm sorry, but I think I'm going to request something similar to what happened in Ubers and ask for the thread to be locked. SM Ubers had this problem when people began posting shitty noms and despite the moderator's efforts it didn't end. The locking worked in saving the thread. Ever since the last update, it's been nothing but shitty noms and toxic discussion. Can we please lock this thread for a while?

?

Other than Articuno-which is at least stayed a civilized discussion-what other shitty noms are being made? Camerupt is a legit nomination.

 

[Primal Bidoof]

I'm sorry, but I think I'm going to request something similar to what happened in Ubers and ask for the thread to be locked. SM Ubers had this problem when people began posting shitty noms and despite the moderator's efforts it didn't end. The locking worked in saving the thread. Ever since the last update, it's been nothing but shitty noms and toxic discussion. Can we please lock this thread for a while?

You can't request for the thread to be locked, you aren't the leader of the thread. You think you can go around locking threads from random people? That would be something pretty stupid to allow. The only recent shitty nom is articuno

 

[bludz]

Mantine B -> B+ : Agree

While it is passive and being weak to Rocks as a Defogger sucks, it clearly has a lot of utility in the current metagame. Aside from good matchups vs Ash Gren, Volc, Zard Y, and Rain, there is one facet of Mantines usefulness that I believe is somewhat overlooked. Look at one of the most common defensive cores - Clefable, Toxapex, Celesteela. Why is this core so good? Well, there are a lot of reasons. But a big one is the ability of these pokemon to pivot into other defensive threats, providing a better opportunity to get a safe switchin for one of your more offensive pokemon. Mantine is actually pretty damn good at this too, although obviously not on the same level. Many balance or stall mons rely on status or pp stalling to beat Mantine in the long run. Let me give an example. You have a Gravity offensive Lando to go alongside Mantine, and are facing the aforementioned Clef Pex Steela core, which gets totally destroyed by your Lando. Of course, you don't want to switch Landorus into any of these pokemon directly - taking damage reduces its ability to smack the other team. You want to come in for free on a hard switch against Toxapex if possible, but getting the turn right can be tricky. Mantine helps force Celesteela out since it fears being burned by Scald, and can't really touch Mantine, and helps to bring in Clefable or Toxapex, lest the opponent risk one of their offensive pokemon taking a Scald. Over the course of the match, you can condition your opponent to make certain plays in balance matchups since you'll be often met with very slow, stalemate-esque situations (i.e. Toxapex or Clefable v Mantine). This is when you can make advanced guesses on the best time to hard switch in. I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert and go into a guide on all this, but if you watch the high level matches in tournaments, you'll notice things like this happen. Balance vs balance matchups where players make safe plays in the early and middle parts of the game, to set up opportunities that become less risky and easier to predict. Mantine is a facilitator in these matchups - and can actually put in work by being something the opponent can't break with their defensive core alone. I won't pretend it is as good as some of the top tier mons, but it certainly has a good matchup against many other defensive pokemon that don't have Toxic, and this can work to your favor if you play Mantine correctly. This is of course to go on top of all the other qualities you're all aware of, such as countering some top tier threats which are difficult to deal with.

 

[Gary]

Articuno is not getting ranked lol like literally just use Kyurem if you want a PP staller that can also annoy rain. Like legit its small advantages over Kyurem are so minuscule that I legit shouldn't have to explain my reasoning. Kyurem is already niche on its own, as well as relying on a lot of team support to succeed, whereas Articuno is literally even more dependent on it.

So please stop discussing this it's creating toxicity.

 

[Dreadfury]

Hmm... a fire/ground type that wallbreaks like a king and compresses a ton of roles into one mon. The last time one of those existed it exceeded 60% usage in Ubers.

Jokes and memes aside, Mega Camerupt is an incredibly fun Mega to use given many of the current metagame trends. And although it's kinda stupid to compare it to the likes of something stupidly broken and overcentralizing like Primal Groudon in Ubers, Camerupt does, in fact, compress many roles into one: the Magearna check, the electric switchin, the crazy wallbreaker, and the Stealth Rock setter. It also does an incredibly good job luring things like Mantine and Pelipper in only to eat them up with little to no effort thanks to an Electric Terrain Nature Power Thunderbolt. Very little in the tier appreciates coming in on Mega Camerupt's STAB moves, as even would-be checks risk getting OHKOed outright.

I've been playing around with a pretty interesting core: Nature Power Mega Camerupt, Scarf Greninja (with Ice Beam), and Gigavolt Tapu Koko. Greninja does a phenomenal job baiting in things like Magearna, which Mega Camerupt can force out effortlessly and either get Stealth Rocks up or predict a switch and dent something. Tapu Koko forces the opponent to predict the physical or special set, making it much easier to get it in and gain momentum with forced switches. The Electric Terrain it provides gives Camerupt an excellent way to blast past Mantine, while the moveslot as a whole still finds some use against the other Tapus since all four terrains provide moves that benefit from its amazing ability.

It's bizarre that people are actually against Mega Camerupt rising even one subrank. After having run it a bit on the ladder it doesn't really have as many problems as a C or C+ mon would have. The opportunity cost to running it isn't really that crazy because it's vastly different from other Megas you could run, with a much more specialized role in OU than any of them. Dugtrio and Lando admittedly give it problems, but those two are ranked so highly on the VR because they give so many things in OU problems. Almost half the stuff from S to A- loses to one or both of them but that doesn't stop things like Magearna, Heatran, Chansey, and the like from being good or even great in this meta. And unlike many of the megas ranked alongside it or even above it, like Pidgeot, Gyarados, and Garchomp (do people even use Mega Chomp? I never see it nor do I see any reason to use it when SD Z-move is so good), Mega Camerupt's niche is notable, unique, and successful, with it getting notable tourney success.

Therefore:

C --> C+ or higher: Strongly Agree

Here are some shorter opinions regarding some of the other recent nominations:

Mantine from B --> B+: Strongly Agree.

This thing is honestly quite cool. Its decent typing and ability to check or counter a large portion of the tier is pretty important in today's meta. Being able to eat hits from Zard Y for days on end, provide invaluable Defog support, and switch in on many of the tier's premiere Water types is more than enough to warrant a rise, even though Tapu Koko is on the rise currently.

Garchomp from A --> A-: Strongly Disagree.

Garchomp is, for lack of better words, literally built to compete at a top end. It has an amazing movepool and stat spread that allows it to beat virtually anything you need it to beat. Although some metagame trends are against it SuMo's Z-moves have given Chomp a new lease on life in OU, allowing Swords Dance variants to tear through more threats than ever. Not one of the tier's best fairies has any business trying to take a hit from Garchomp, as its movepool is just good enough that it can OHKO virtually all of them after Stealth Rocks. Its speed tier is as crucial as ever, allowing it to outpace the incredibly crowded group of base 100s and below, and even with the sheer power of SD+Z-move variants the Choice Scarf set still exists to revenge kill many Scarfers in that base-100 and below bunch. It's about as versatile and powerful as an A-rank mon should be and keeping it in A accurately reflects this.

Articuno meme nomination

Articuno sucks. Kyurem does almost everything it does better and even vanilla Kyurem is an incredibly niche pick compared to the rest of OU. Its one niche over a slightly less-niche niche - Freeze Dry - doesn't make up for the fact that it's 4x weak to Stealth Rocks and finds itself caught in the "offense needs an emergency check to Volcarona" crossfire far worse than Kyurem does. It shouldn't be ranked whatsoever.

Marowak-A from B+ --> A-: Agree.

I don't feel like I've ever really liked Alolan Marowak, but the punch this thing packs with its amazing offensive typing is something to behold. A physical wallbreaker as strong as this that can't even be crippled with a burn is something this tier really appreciates, so I can see it rising.

Suicune from B+ --> A-: Strongly Agree.

From its incredible niche in being able to PP-stall half of the tier to its resounding tournament success in doing so, everything I and others had said about Suicune when nominating it to B+ remains equally true today. A lot of teams get outright 6-0'd by it just based on the team preview alone and it deserves to make its home among the first division of OU's top threats.

Tapu Koko from A --> A+: Strongly Agree.

Physical Gigavolt Havoc Koko has become mainstream. What the absurdly-powerful physical Z-move has given a mon that was once almost completely figured out is a new lease on life amidst OU's top threats. With its solid Attack stat and Electric Terrain, the physical Gigavolt Havoc is able to break through things the Special sets of old couldn't even dream of. Playing around this set's existence is a nightmare considering the Special sets aren't even that bad. An innovative set like Physical Koko has given it the versatility and unpredictability it needs to compete with everything in A+. I've been running it alongside Mega Camerupt and the extra Dugtrio weakness doesn't really hurt it as much as its Wild Charge hurts a would-be counter.

I haven't really used Nidoking yet so I can't make an educated statement regarding it. I'm all for it rising to B if it really does shred Balance like the other posts say it does.

EDIT: This was edited into one post by a moderator. Thank you for that.

 

[robopoke]

Mantine B -> B+ : Agree

While it is passive and being weak to Rocks as a Defogger sucks, it clearly has a lot of utility in the current metagame. Aside from good matchups vs Ash Gren, Volc, Zard Y, and Rain, there is one facet of Mantines usefulness that I believe is somewhat overlooked. Look at one of the most common defensive cores - Clefable, Toxapex, Celesteela. Why is this core so good? Well, there are a lot of reasons. But a big one is the ability of these pokemon to pivot into other defensive threats, providing a better opportunity to get a safe switchin for one of your more offensive pokemon. Mantine is actually pretty damn good at this too, although obviously not on the same level. Many balance or stall mons rely on status or pp stalling to beat Mantine in the long run. Let me give an example. You have a Gravity offensive Lando to go alongside Mantine, and are facing the aforementioned Clef Pex Steela core, which gets totally destroyed by your Lando. Of course, you don't want to switch Landorus into any of these pokemon directly - taking damage reduces its ability to smack the other team. You want to come in for free on a hard switch against Toxapex if possible, but getting the turn right can be tricky. Mantine helps force Celesteela out since it fears being burned by Scald, and can't really touch Mantine, and helps to bring in Clefable or Toxapex, lest the opponent risk one of their offensive pokemon taking a Scald. Over the course of the match, you can condition your opponent to make certain plays in balance matchups since you'll be often met with very slow, stalemate-esque situations (i.e. Toxapex or Clefable v Mantine). This is when you can make advanced guesses on the best time to hard switch in. I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert and go into a guide on all this, but if you watch the high level matches in tournaments, you'll notice things like this happen. Balance vs balance matchups where players make safe plays in the early and middle parts of the game, to set up opportunities that become less risky and easier to predict. Mantine is a facilitator in these matchups - and can actually put in work by being something the opponent can't break with their defensive core alone. I won't pretend it is as good as some of the top tier mons, but it certainly has a good matchup against many other defensive pokemon that don't have Toxic, and this can work to your favor if you play Mantine correctly. This is of course to go on top of all the other qualities you're all aware of, such as countering some top tier threats which are difficult to deal with.

Well, Mantine is indeed annoying for the opponent with a Balanceteam because Scald is a move offensive mons to not like to switch into. However, I would not call it a facilitator because it will depend what the original defensive switch-in is. Let us assume your opponents offensive part of his balanceteam does not enjoy Scald: there is still the possibility of your opponent alternating which defensive mon to use as a switch to your Scalds. After several turns let us assume you 100% know he will go Clefable or Toxapex next which your opponent has been alternating for like 20 turns as a switch to your Mantine. You would need an offensive mon that can take care of both or otherwise you might have wasted 20 turns to get offensive momentum. Also this is something your opponent can do as well. Lets say you have shown Mantine and Mega Venu as your Stealth Rock Flamethrower Clefable switch-in because you do not want your offensive mons getting potentially Flamethrower burned or maybe your offensive mons take high dmg from Moonblast. What if your opponent after conditioning you for 20 turns to go to these defensive answers suddenly makes the riskfree play and brings out his offensive threat that can cover Mantine+Mega Venu?

I would not say that Mantine in particular gives you the upper hand in these scenarios. I prefer to call them plays you can make with little risks, if the matchup is favourable (and I dont see how Mantine compared to other defensive mons has a better matchup which thus forces your opponent to make a certain play to give you the upper hand). As long as I do not see how Mantine is the key for a Balanceteam to dictate the momentum, I would not call this an argument for a rise. But maybe I understood you completely wrong?

The usage of Hazardspam Focus Sash Greninja increased alot as well alongside Taunt to prevent any form of Defog which is a little bit frustrating for Mantine. I would also feel very uncomfortable to see Mantine in B+ with Mega Venusaur still in B. Mega Venusaurs ability and typing alone can be a wincondition because it is very hard to break. It beats so much in the meta and it can choose from a myriad of options which makes it unpredictable in the early game.

 

[Donphan Trumpcard]

Why can't you hear a pterodactyl use the bathroom?
Because the P is silent.

Mega Aerodactyl might be worthy of a rise from C+ to B-.

M-Aero is a pretty slept on with threat, but the meta is shifting in its favor. For example, ZardY+Duggy is a devastating core right now, and Aero throttles this duo without being prone to pursuit trap from the common third wheel, Ttar.

He has a lot of different options, but I think Stone Edge/Ice Fang/Earthquake/Roost is the best in this meta, as it allows him to cause massive damage while also giving him longevity to use his unique typing to check a few top tier threats.

Pex was once a solid stop for Aero.

252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 124-148 (40.7 - 48.6%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Now, however, Aero can net the 2HKO more often than not thanks to shed shell > black sludge.

252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 124-148 (40.7 - 48.6%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Offensive Lando-T is more popular than ever, which is great for Aero. In fact, Lando-T is many team's main or only fallback for powerful EdgeQuake abusers such as Aero, but Aero rolls right through Lando with Ice Fang.

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 276-328 (86.5 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And you have to worry less about rocky helmet. The Flynium-Z set for Lando is incredibly hard to switch into. However, Aero is immune to ground and resists flying, make him a decent switch in now that gravity and smack down are being chosen over stone edge which would deter Aero.

Calcs

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 195-229 (64.7 - 76%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Smack Down vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 150-178 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Koko is on the rise, and while Aero obviously can't siwtch in, he does a great job of coming in and forcing him out.

252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 258-304 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Very few non-scarf mons can outspeed and KO koko this easily. But Aero outspeeds (or ties with, in the case of itself and M-Zam) the entire relevant unboosted meta, including Ninja and Ash Ninja (obviously, beware water shuriken).

In fact, if you pack a reliable Zam answer, Aero is so fast it can afford to run an adamant atk nature. Look how those calcs change if you choose this- in many cases you don't even need rocks now, or you can guarantee the KO rather than rolling for it.

Calcs

252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 304-360 (95.2 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 282-334 (100.3 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Aero is a great Volcarona switch in that can beat just about any set bar psychium-Z. Also a great Tran answer- doesn't mind taking the magma storm and forces out with Earthquake, can switch in multiple times due to roost (beware Earth Power) and is really only annoyed by toxic. It also really loves the decline in 101+ scarfers, as offensive teams just don't have the speed to keep up with him as much anymore. This allows it to steamroll offensive teams with some chip damage, as the only things stopping him are Ash-Ninja and Azumarill.

Did I mention this thing is also one of the best Pinsir checks in the game?

On top of this, Aero can lure in just about any threat your team desires. Ferro bugging you? Fry it with fire fang. Want Clefable out of the way? Iron head can deal with her. Tired of tangrowth blocking you? Wing attack will deal with it, plus Bulu. Tired of skarmory? Taunt can take care of this. Can even lure Mew with crunch if you need. Its extremely customizable down to basically 1 safe counter (the incredibly rare Quagsire) until you've seen all 4 moves. Thunder fang can also be destructive if you can abuse opposing or friendly Koko's electric terrain. In fact, the only essential move is Stone Edge- after this, the other 3 are up to you. 4 attacks over roost works fine for the extra coverage, but if you're looking for an answer to Duggy+ZardY, Volcarona, Tran, Pinsir, etc, roost is pretty important.

Admittedly, it's not a huge fan of rain teams, though it's far from dead weight against them, as it can score kills against Pelipper and Koko. The Mega opportunity cost isn't really as big of an issue as it was last gen. Suicune rise is also a bit problematic but overall Aero feels better than stuff like Primarina, Mega Gyarados, Volcanion, and Cofagrigus, and more on par with stuff like A-Muk, Sharpedo-Mega, Niehligo (also offensive rock type), and Gardevoir-Mega.

 

[njnp]

So, recent discussion has been bought up about rising infernape in the vr chat. I feel this is certainly a good idea..ape is a very underrated scarfer as far as I'm concerned and im glad these is a call for it to rise. Ape has preformed good for me personally along with the fact it won a game in wcop. Anyway.....

Infernape is a very nice scarfer in the current meta game because it fulfills most of the rolls that you would want in a scarfer. Base 108 Speed is clutch for a few reasons, the biggest being that it outspeeds +2 timid Magearna and can ohko it with Flare Blitz if Veil isn't up. Next, it speed ties with another common scarfer in Keldeo, and outspeeds 2 of the better and more common scarfers in Garchomp and Nihilego. Finally, it outspeeds +1 Volcarona and can revenge it with Stone Edge, or the more reliable Flare Blitz because a lot of Volcs run Charti Berry and Flare Blitz hits almost as hard and doesn't have a chance to miss. Another cool tech about scarf Infernape is that it gets Iron Fist boosted Mach Punch which is a great tech for faster scarfers like Greninja, or even Ash Greninja which thinks it can pick Ape off witch Water Shuriken. All in all, Infernape is a fast revenge killer with high powered dual stabs to make up for its relatively low attacking stats. It even has some mixed potential with the ability to run fire moves like Fire Blast, Overheat, or HP Ice to hit Obvious Lando switch ins harder. Definitely not a mon that should be slept on.

 

[bludz]

Well, Mantine is indeed annoying for the opponent with a Balanceteam because Scald is a move offensive mons to not like to switch into. However, I would not call it a facilitator because it will depend what the original defensive switch-in is. Let us assume your opponents offensive part of his balanceteam does not enjoy Scald: there is still the possibility of your opponent alternating which defensive mon to use as a switch to your Scalds. After several turns let us assume you 100% know he will go Clefable or Toxapex next which your opponent has been alternating for like 20 turns as a switch to your Mantine. You would need an offensive mon that can take care of both or otherwise you might have wasted 20 turns to get offensive momentum. Also this is something your opponent can do as well. Lets say you have shown Mantine and Mega Venu as your Stealth Rock Flamethrower Clefable switch-in because you do not want your offensive mons getting potentially Flamethrower burned or maybe your offensive mons take high dmg from Moonblast. What if your opponent after conditioning you for 20 turns to go to these defensive answers suddenly makes the riskfree play and brings out his offensive threat that can cover Mantine+Mega Venu?

I would not say that Mantine in particular gives you the upper hand in these scenarios. I prefer to call them plays you can make with little risks, if the matchup is favourable (and I dont see how Mantine compared to other defensive mons has a better matchup which thus forces your opponent to make a certain play to give you the upper hand). As long as I do not see how Mantine is the key for a Balanceteam to dictate the momentum, I would not call this an argument for a rise. But maybe I understood you completely wrong?

The usage of Hazardspam Focus Sash Greninja increased alot as well alongside Taunt to prevent any form of Defog which is a little bit frustrating for Mantine. I would also feel very uncomfortable to see Mantine in B+ with Mega Venusaur still in B. Mega Venusaurs ability and typing alone can be a wincondition because it is very hard to break. It beats so much in the meta and it can choose from a myriad of options which makes it unpredictable in the early game.

TBH I think Mega Venusaur is kinda underrated so I can see where you're coming from with that.

In regards to being a facilitator maybe I overstated it in some respects. You're right that other balance fatmons can do the same thing, and no Mantine is not some momentum wizard lol. However, most of the balance mons that are best at maintaining momentum are already ranked above Mantine. I guess my point is that Mantine, as a defensive pokemon, has a better matchup against other defensive pokemon than some of the other things that share its current viability (around B - B+). Taking a quick look we have Jirachi and Alomomola, with Tapu Fini and Amoonguss ranked above Mantine. I think it belongs with the latter more than the former. In terms of matchup against other defensive mons, it is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes which is really big, since defensive backbones often rely on passive damage to wear down the opposing team. It also has Defog, which poses a problem to said defensive cores trying to wear down your team. You have a point - matchup can play a role and there will be situations where Mantine is not that great against the opposing defensive core (Tangrowth is an example, or it can be facing a hazard setter that keeps up rocks against it). However, I think it's definitely gained viability lately with so much Zard Y + Dug + Mew and its pretty reasonable matchup against many defensive cores is no lie. The pivoting/conditioning/momentum thing holds true for a lot of things, but Mantine has gotten better at it lately.

Also, I think that Focus Sash Greninja is really only a ladder thing and isn't really seen much in tour play (widely considered the highest level of play and the truest representation of the metagame). Taunt usage also doesn't seem to be up from what I can tell, so I'm not sure that this really plays into it. If you want to argue to rise Venu I'm not particularly for or against that but I don't think that is a reason for Mantine to stay in B.

 

[Sultan]

Nomination - Excadrill to B+

Exca is an amazing cleaner right now. It can be combined with Charizard Y, which destroys pretty much all its checks. Zard Y baits in Toxapex, which Exca can double switch on and take out (the recent lack of Black Sludge makes Toxapex more reliable to 2HKO).

252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk burned Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 150-176 (41.4 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That's right, even if the first Scald burns Excadrill, it's still a guaranteed 2HKO.

It also outspeeds and 2HKOs Mantine, though it needs to watch out for Scald burns in this case.

252+ Atk Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 186-220 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (a Life Orb guarantees the 2HKO without rocks up)
0 SpA Mantine Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 204-242 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The rises of Tapu Koko and Magearna, which it easily deals with, also helps it a lot. Excadrill synergizes really well with a lot of Pokémon that are amazing right now, most notably Tyranitar and Zard Y, so I think it deserves a rise.


Replays: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-611979045
Edit: Another one http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-612000229 I'll admit, I got kinda lucky with that Lando-T crit, but still, shows Exca putting in valuable work.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-612003371 I made a couple of bad plays here, since I was tired. Exca really saved my arse.

 

[radianthero156]

Marowak-Alola: from B+ to C+

Seemingly contrarily to the flow of the thread, I would like to nominate Marowak-Alola to actually move down a few ranks. Most arguments I've seen in its favor are either flat-out absurd, or solely based on theorycrafting (as opposed to actual practice). First of all, it's not as easy as it seems to keep hazards off the field. Every hazard removal is either hardly viable (such as Starmie or Tentacruel), vulnerable to entry hazards (Mew and Fini are prone to Toxic Spikes, Zapdos is weak to Stealth Rock, etc). And Stealth Rock users are incredibly powerful, either offensively (Landorus-T, Garchomp), or defensively (Chansey, Ferrothorn, Clefable).

Marowak is absolutely useless against offensive teams. With 60 HP and 45 Speed, as well as an SR weakness, the only thing you can do in practice is to weaken Landorus-T and be a sacrifice fodder afterwards. Taking a look at all the things ranked at A- or higher, every offensive mon outspeeds, then either OHKOes with SR or U-turns out (with a few exceptions, such as Magearna who still does over 50% with Fleur Cannon). Even the threats it's supposed to check still beat it with coverage moves or simply outlast it. Also, look at the A-/A/A+ threats again, and ask yourself whether you really want to give free turns to the following Pokémon: Landorus-T, Greninja(-Ash), Heatran, Zygarde, Garchomp, Keldeo... list goes on. And I'm not even gonna go on about how it becomes even less effective against Rain Offense teams.

Against balance/stall teams, I can see it being remotely useful. Even then, it's still not a guaranteed win, considering it's vulnerable to Toxic and is absolutely demolished by every form of entry hazards including Toxic Spikes and, again, a weakness to Stealth Rock. Also, Flare Blitz recoil will add up really fast, unless you either run Rock Head, which will make you even more useless against Koko, Zapdos, Magearna, etc, or run Fire Punch, which deals no damage to the likes of Chansey/Landorus-T. And not to mention if it eats an unpredicted Knock Off from the likes of Clefable, Tangrowth, etc, then enjoy your lower-than-Latios base attack for the rest of the game. Even if your team is seriously that weak to stall, I don't see how Marowak does any better than Sub NP Hoopa, or even Sub CM Chandelure; both of which aren't even ranked.

Lastly, if a Fire type that also checks Electric Pokémon is needed, Charizard-X is IMHO superior in every aspect, since it's much faster, has recovery, access to Dragon Dance, and is generally extremely strong against some of the meta teams (the Mew/Celesteela/Toxapex cores, Tapu Lele teams, variations of that bro fist team with Venusaur, that FLCL team with Pinsir). I legitimately cannot see what Marowak has over it outside of the fact that it doesn't take up a mega slot. And if it's B-, then Marowak shouldn't really be ranked above it.

I understand my opinion might be flawed as I've only played around 100 S/M OU games, so I can easily be convinced otherwise, but before that I want to see a handful of high-level replays where Marowak was used and made a positive impact.

 

[Night Train Lane]

Thats honestly an absurd nomination. Maro has only gotten better with the influx of Magearna, Mew and Offensive Lando. Koko has also made a resurgence along with CM Clefable. The Charizard comparison doesnt make any sense since they arent remotely the same pokemon. Charizard has its own set of flaws that have been especially highlighted the last 10 or so pages.

Being able to come in on one of its many resists and click one of its STABS, each of which are extremely troublesome to switch into, while also having rocks or wisp utility. It also has a much better stall match up than a majority of pokemon listed.

Fire types are really good right now shown by the popularity of Heatran and ZardY and the rise in use of Infernape and Chandelure (which should probably be ranked as well.)

 

[radianthero156]

Maro has only gotten better with the influx of Magearna, Mew and Offensive Lando. Koko has also made a resurgence along with CM Clefable.

Magearna 2HKOes it with Fleur Cannon and SR, Landorus-T still checks it, Koko U-turns out of it, Clefable can render it useless with Knock Off.

The Charizard comparison doesnt make any sense since they arent remotely the same pokemon. Charizard has its own set of flaws that have been especially highlighted the last 10 or so pages.

They both are Fire types that can check Electric types and wallbreak with Flare Blitz/good STAB coverage. I don't know exactly what is Charizard's "own set of weakness", but I'm certain it's not as troublesome as being completely owned by Knock Off, being worthless against offense outside of Trick Room, dying to Pursuit, being unable to take more than 2 hits the whole game, among others.

Being able to come in on one of its many resists and click one of its STABS, each of which are extremely troublesome to switch into, while also having rocks or wisp utility. It also has a much better stall match up than a majority of pokemon listed.

What many resists? From the 33 Pokémon in A- or higher, Marowak literally can only switch-in safely against 2-6, depending on whether you consider potential moves or only common moves. Of all traits you mentioned, Zard-X can do all but set SR, except it doesn't get outsped by every common mon, and isn't weak to extremely common moves like Scald and Knock Off.

Fire types are really good right now shown by the popularity of Heatran and ZardY and the rise in use of Infernape and Chandelure (which should probably be ranked as well.)

And I'm not convinced Marowak is one of them until I see replays showcasing how useful it is.

 

[mushamu]

Magearna 2HKOes it with Fleur Cannon and SR, Landorus-T still checks it, Koko U-turns out of it, Clefable can render it useless with Knock Off.



They both are Fire types that can check Electric types and wallbreak with Flare Blitz/good STAB coverage. I don't know exactly what is Charizard's "own set of weakness", but I'm certain it's not as troublesome as being completely owned by Knock Off, being worthless against offense outside of Trick Room, dying to Pursuit, being unable to take more than 2 hits the whole game, among others.



What many resists? From the 33 Pokémon in A- or higher, Marowak literally can only switch-in safely against 2-6, depending on whether you consider potential moves or only common moves. Of all traits you mentioned, Zard-X can do all but set SR, except it doesn't get outsped by every common mon, and isn't weak to extremely common moves like Scald and Knock Off.



And I'm not convinced Marowak is one of them until I see replays showcasing how useful it is.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-301426

Here is your slice of replay with a side of Alolan Marowak.