Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Scarfire

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MPL Champion
Wanted to discuss non-radar mons since I think everything that can be said about them, has been said. Not saying I have much new to say regardless, but still. I'll start by hyping up some mons I've found handy.

:iron_treads:Initially I tried for games on end with defensive sets, lefties and AV and whatnot. I remained extremely unimpressed. Though after watching a recent Blunder live and seeing booster offensive look valuable in literally every MU, I tried it out on a few teams and it definitely is a vast improvement. Its no breaker but vs offence its good at threatening shit around and taking some kills / 2hkoing lower end defensive mons. Good at fast knocks, spin is as valuable as it can be, and it can still soft-check fairies and guys like ghold. Its not super capable of switching into a lot, but its not easy to threaten out with an ohko. Its also really nice vs glowking cores. Good mon and its viability opens up more team styles so we aren't limited to 100% gtusk usage. Be sure not to greedily sack it after bringing it in under the pretence of "and I burned my booster energy its useless now". It sticking around gives good value, trust.

:zapdos:Regardless of no defog this mon is extremely swag. Offensive 3a roost is nice for keeping momentum and it hits damn hard. Not much in this meta really encourages defensive zapdos (except the soon to be banned dogs but w/e), and its not exactly great w/o defog or toxic so max SpA Speed timid is the ideal. Can be good with like 100 defensive tera's, or you can just tera flying and 2hko stuff like landorus or ursaluna. Speed tier is nice as well, outpacing tusk, urshifu (very important), you can speed tie volcarona and tera-hurricane and ohko through the +1 boost. Tera Blast fairy is also a fun one, lets you snipe hydreigon, specs pult as it dracos, dd moon, dd bax, and hit ting lu harder. Give it a try, but be weary of how bad it can abused by Ting-Lu. U-turn zap meta? (for legal reasons this is a joke, just switch to your tusk)

:amoonguss:Initially started using it to avoid crying and shitting my pants when Urshifu would come out, but beyond that its provided good utility. There is no real spore absorbers (except this guy himself) especially now that everyones premier steel seems to be Heatran instead of Gholdengo. Checks Lando and Tusk well enough so that you don't need to cripple your torn/zap/enam into being a defensive flying. Toxic variants can be nice into Dragonite, grass knot 2hkos Ursaluna, covert cloak sets beat all Garganacls, you can do stomping tantrum for the heatran punish. Valiant struggles to make progress on you, as does sneasler. You absorb tspikes, you tackle rain, you can take on enamorus. Obviously its ability to do ALL of this in a game isn't realistic but it has great functionality on most teams and I implore you guys to use it more on BO type teams. Truly phenomenal mon.

:volcanion:This thing isn't too outstanding right now, but I wanted to bring up how good I think it will be post bans when meta settles. As of right now, specs in rain remains impressive and its ability to shut down opposing m-basc rains, bothering urshifu (if its +2 you can do some fun tera ghost/fairy stuff to shut it down), and with steam + taunt it can really pressure chilly-glowking teams by forcing a burn + taunting the switch out. Going forward as balance/BO becomes more viable I can only see taunt 3 attacks becoming a progressively better and more annoying breaker. Keep a watchful eye on this mon as I think it will have a nice place in OU.

And next for some mons I either think aren't as good as people are saying OR fell off p hard since home dropped. I DONT THINK ANY OF THESE ARE BAD. Just far from perfect.

:samurott_hisui:Hot topic in the meta right now, people either think this mon is the greatest creation from God or that it is mediocre. I lean towards the latter side. No aspect of this mon is impressive. Defensively it cannot switch into even resists like Heatran or Gholdengo more than once, offensively it lacks power unless you use choice band AND click the right move (lest you Ceaseless into tusk and do 0.0% as they spin the epic progress making spike you put up), and then still suffer due to your speed tier. Scarf has the same predictability problem but now it doesn't do any damage and even from a speed control perspective, it under-speeding mons like booster speed/scarf tusk, dd bax, and volcarona makes it feel very ass (all of these reasons are why started feeling a distaste for scarf gholdengo pre-home). SD sets have the speed issue and are so weak they can't even force out mons like tusk unless you want to run HYDRO PUMP. TL:DR too slow too frail too weak and carried by a "broken" move.

I do think SD sucker punch sets are the best of the options provided. Can semi-speed control without using shit scarf and has some level of power. Still not my favourite mon, but it is what it is.

:gholdengo:This pokemon is definitely still good but hard to justify as your go-to steel over say Heatran, and it struggles to KO a lot more now, like lando, heatran, glowking pivoting it, stuff like Volcarona and Gmolt abusing it as fodder, and all while also being outpaced by upwards of 22 important mons, most of which can OHKO it with something. I do have high hopes for stuff like physdef nasty plot though, as it checks a lot like Zama (whichever stays in OU), Sneasler, Valiant, and with shuca/balloon it can also solidly take on tusk, bax, dnite, and luna. Cool mon, but definitely not ideal until we begin exploring it further. Specs could be something cool as well, other offensive sets on ghost-spams with dragapult maybe.

:skeledirge:Having to run EP for heatran feels like immense shit, and even then if its like tera grass you're just cooked anyways. Also 99.9% of volcarona's being tera water usually means Skeledirge ends up having to tera to beat it. Enam is a new fairy tool that just breaks past this guy. A lot isn't going dirge's way. He still checks a bunch of annoying ass mons but it is definitely far more abusable than before. Pain.
 
The move is breaking sleep clause and it'd be an obnoxious move on any Pokemon
Not really since the mod prevents it, I just not get why people thinks this.
:gholdengo:This pokemon is definitely still good but hard to justify as your go-to steel over say Heatran, and it struggles to KO a lot more now, like lando, heatran, glowking pivoting it, stuff like Volcarona and Gmolt abusing it as fodder, and all while also being outpaced by upwards of 22 important mons, most of which can OHKO it with something. I do have high hopes for stuff like physdef nasty plot though, as it checks a lot like Zama (whichever stays in OU), Sneasler, Valiant, and with shuca/balloon it can also solidly take on tusk, bax, dnite, and luna. Cool mon, but definitely not ideal until we begin exploring it further. Specs could be something cool as well, other offensive sets on ghost-spams with dragapult maybe.
Defensive Gholdengo is solid rn, better than Heatran IMO since it doesn't have to worry about chip damage thanks to recover, Heatran without toxic depends a lot on tera, that is something I don't like.
Agree about Samurott, with Pao and the Zamas gone I can see Meoscarada returning as the main spiker of the tier since its speed tier would be one of the best again.
 
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I am curious to see where H-Samurott lands after all this as people either see it as really good or mediocre (I am of the former). And honestly, it does come down to experiences with the mon in general.

I believe it has what it takes to be a solid mon in OU. I don't really believe it's mediocre, but I also don't believe it's broken or the strongest thing in the tier by any means. Seems to just be overall balanced with the right tools to do what it needs to do.

I am just happy that there is a version of Samurott that can even be considered viable in OU at all.
 
Apologies if this sentiment has been discussed elsewhere, but I am curious about the opinions of players who have left the current metagame due to its current state. How are their concerns being captured? What changes need to be made for them to come back to something they would enjoy?

I wonder if there might be an inherent bias in favor of the metagame among the respondents to the survey. It seems likely that those who have left the competitive gen 9 scene are less inclined to participate in these surveys, which means their less favorable views of the meta may not be adequately represented. Are the historical trends of battle participation taken into account when evaluating the state of the meta?

Essentially, what I'm trying to convey is that the survey respondents aren't the only ones who care about the current meta, and the positive sentiments expressed may be slightly inflated imo.
Its a good point. There's always people who get frustrated when things are this unstable. It seems like the "fun" scores are a lot down from the pre home surveys though.

A lot of people say a balanced competitive metagame should come before fun but at the end of the day it's a game, if things aren't fun no one will play
 
I am curious to see where H-Samurott lands after all this as people either see it as really good or mediocre (I am of the former). And honestly, it does come down to experiences with the mon in general.

I believe it has what it takes to be a solid mon in OU. I don't really believe it's mediocre, but I also don't believe it's broken or the strongest thing in the tier by any means. Seems to just be overall balanced with the right tools to do what it needs to do.

I am just happy that there is a version of Samurott that can even be considered viable in OU at all.
I think it's just about perfectly balanced. Super strong in a completely unique way, but with interesting weaknesses that balance it out and make you carefully consider how to use it instead of just clicking STAB moves. It's fun, interesting, strong, and actually balanced. Solid A/A- Pokemon. Once everyone's had some time to experiment with it and more bans get rolled out, I think it'll be very interesting. Not quite a staple, but a prevalent and respectable part of OU.

God I'm glad it's design is actually really interesting and balanced and not just the antithesis of thought and strategy like Pao is.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
why is this a thing people want? online 6v6 singles on cartridge is a miserable experience that we should not be encouraging. besides which, hp percentage mod and canceling moves can't be replicated on cart either and no one is advocating for changing those (and don't give me any bullshit about "they aren't mechanical changes", the ability to cancel a move is a pretty damn significant mechanical change that affects the decision-making process of basically every high-level game)
HP Percentage can be enforced on cart by requiring your opponent to tell you when asked. It's simple math to do quickly with a calculator.
 
Maybe it's just that I'm an old fart, but all the Dire Claw complaints read like young'uns who never dealt with Scarf Jirachi spamming Iron Head.

Consecutive flinches from Jirachi is 36%, the chance for Dire Claw to land sleep or a full paralysis is 20.83%. Hell, Jirachi is more likely to land three flinches in a row (21.6%) than Sneasler is to land a sleep (16.6%), and just a bit higher than the combined sleep/full paralysis, and unlike Sneasler, had the bulk to take a hit when he didn't get the status.

That's not even going into old strategies like para-fusion, or old staples like No Guard Machamp's Dynamic Punch.

Dire Claw isn't any more "uncompetitive" or high-variance than past strategies, it's just new and flashy.

Edit: Fixed math. Listed sleep/full paralysis at 25%, it's actually much less likely. Notably, triple flinch is more common than sleep/full para from Dire Claw.
 
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Maybe it's just that I'm an old fart, but all the Dire Claw complaints read like young'uns who never dealt with Scarf Jirachi spamming Iron Head.

Consecutive flinches from Jirachi is 36%, the chance for Dire Claw to land sleep or a full paralysis is 25%. Hell, Jirachi is more likely to land three flinches in a row (21.6%) than Sneasler is to land a sleep (16.6%) and not much less likely than the combined sleep/full paralysis, and unlike Sneasler, had the bulk to take a hit when he didn't get the status.

That's not even going into old strategies like para-fusion, or old staples like No Guard Machamp's Dynamic Punch.

Dire Claw isn't any more "uncompetitive" or high-variance than past strategies, it's just new and flashy.
You just gave me flashbacks of heatrans being 1v1d by that little shit and I don’t appreciate it
 

termnal

formerly Lpow12
Maybe it's just that I'm an old fart, but all the Dire Claw complaints read like young'uns who never dealt with Scarf Jirachi spamming Iron Head.

Consecutive flinches from Jirachi is 36%, the chance for Dire Claw to land sleep or a full paralysis is 25%. Hell, Jirachi is more likely to land three flinches in a row (21.6%) than Sneasler is to land a sleep (16.6%) and not much less likely than the combined sleep/full paralysis, and unlike Sneasler, had the bulk to take a hit when he didn't get the status.

That's not even going into old strategies like para-fusion, or old staples like No Guard Machamp's Dynamic Punch.

Dire Claw isn't any more "uncompetitive" or high-variance than past strategies, it's just new and flashy.
THIS so much this. Bro even in gen 8 I was paraflinching all kinds of stuff with kiss, dire claw is a roughly 17% chance for sleep. Banning something off a 17% sleep chance or even the sleep + para chance when the move has a natural immunity in steel types feels crazy. If this happens I don't see why we couldn't entertain banning jirchi or togekiss for the exact same reasons(you are more likely to get 3 flinches in a row vs sleep and a 2 turn sleep from dire claw) and we have all agreed that those are ok to have in the ou environment since GEN 4. I get it the move can feel annoying but like wapf mentioned it feels like some people have never lost a 1v3 to scarf rachi or scarf togekiss flinch hax.
 
THIS so much this. Bro even in gen 8 I was paraflinching all kinds of stuff with kiss, dire claw is a roughly 17% chance for sleep. Banning something off a 17% sleep chance or even the sleep + para chance when the move has a natural immunity in steel types feels crazy. If this happens I don't see why we couldn't entertain banning jirchi or togekiss for the exact same reasons(you are more likely to get 3 flinches in a row vs sleep and a 2 turn sleep from dire claw) and we have all agreed that those are ok to have in the ou environment since GEN 4. I get it the move can feel annoying but like wapf mentioned it feels like some people have never lost a 1v3 to scarf rachi or scarf togekiss flinch hax.
Yeah make a rule than Dire Claw can't sleep so when can keep the new shiny mon in the tier. Smogon is anti fun
 
Wanted to discuss non-radar mons since I think everything that can be said about them, has been said. Not saying I have much new to say regardless, but still. I'll start by hyping up some mons I've found handy.

:iron_treads:Initially I tried for games on end with defensive sets, lefties and AV and whatnot. I remained extremely unimpressed. Though after watching a recent Blunder live and seeing booster offensive look valuable in literally every MU, I tried it out on a few teams and it definitely is a vast improvement. Its no breaker but vs offence its good at threatening shit around and taking some kills / 2hkoing lower end defensive mons. Good at fast knocks, spin is as valuable as it can be, and it can still soft-check fairies and guys like ghold. Its not super capable of switching into a lot, but its not easy to threaten out with an ohko. Its also really nice vs glowking cores. Good mon and its viability opens up more team styles so we aren't limited to 100% gtusk usage. Be sure not to greedily sack it after bringing it in under the pretence of "and I burned my booster energy its useless now". It sticking around gives good value, trust.

:zapdos:Regardless of no defog this mon is extremely swag. Offensive 3a roost is nice for keeping momentum and it hits damn hard. Not much in this meta really encourages defensive zapdos (except the soon to be banned dogs but w/e), and its not exactly great w/o defog or toxic so max SpA Speed timid is the ideal. Can be good with like 100 defensive tera's, or you can just tera flying and 2hko stuff like landorus or ursaluna. Speed tier is nice as well, outpacing tusk, urshifu (very important), you can speed tie volcarona and tera-hurricane and ohko through the +1 boost. Tera Blast fairy is also a fun one, lets you snipe hydreigon, specs pult as it dracos, dd moon, dd bax, and hit ting lu harder. Give it a try, but be weary of how bad it can abused by Ting-Lu. U-turn zap meta? (for legal reasons this is a joke, just switch to your tusk)

:amoonguss:Initially started using it to avoid crying and shitting my pants when Urshifu would come out, but beyond that its provided good utility. There is no real spore absorbers (except this guy himself) especially now that everyones premier steel seems to be Heatran instead of Gholdengo. Checks Lando and Tusk well enough so that you don't need to cripple your torn/zap/enam into being a defensive flying. Toxic variants can be nice into Dragonite, grass knot 2hkos Ursaluna, covert cloak sets beat all Garganacls, you can do stomping tantrum for the heatran punish. Valiant struggles to make progress on you, as does sneasler. You absorb tspikes, you tackle rain, you can take on enamorus. Obviously its ability to do ALL of this in a game isn't realistic but it has great functionality on most teams and I implore you guys to use it more on BO type teams. Truly phenomenal mon.

:volcanion:This thing isn't too outstanding right now, but I wanted to bring up how good I think it will be post bans when meta settles. As of right now, specs in rain remains impressive and its ability to shut down opposing m-basc rains, bothering urshifu (if its +2 you can do some fun tera ghost/fairy stuff to shut it down), and with steam + taunt it can really pressure chilly-glowking teams by forcing a burn + taunting the switch out. Going forward as balance/BO becomes more viable I can only see taunt 3 attacks becoming a progressively better and more annoying breaker. Keep a watchful eye on this mon as I think it will have a nice place in OU.

And next for some mons I either think aren't as good as people are saying OR fell off p hard since home dropped. I DONT THINK ANY OF THESE ARE BAD. Just far from perfect.

:samurott_hisui:Hot topic in the meta right now, people either think this mon is the greatest creation from God or that it is mediocre. I lean towards the latter side. No aspect of this mon is impressive. Defensively it cannot switch into even resists like Heatran or Gholdengo more than once, offensively it lacks power unless you use choice band AND click the right move (lest you Ceaseless into tusk and do 0.0% as they spin the epic progress making spike you put up), and then still suffer due to your speed tier. Scarf has the same predictability problem but now it doesn't do any damage and even from a speed control perspective, it under-speeding mons like booster speed/scarf tusk, dd bax, and volcarona makes it feel very ass (all of these reasons are why started feeling a distaste for scarf gholdengo pre-home). SD sets have the speed issue and are so weak they can't even force out mons like tusk unless you want to run HYDRO PUMP. TL:DR too slow too frail too weak and carried by a "broken" move.

I do think SD sucker punch sets are the best of the options provided. Can semi-speed control without using shit scarf and has some level of power. Still not my favourite mon, but it is what it is.

:gholdengo:This pokemon is definitely still good but hard to justify as your go-to steel over say Heatran, and it struggles to KO a lot more now, like lando, heatran, glowking pivoting it, stuff like Volcarona and Gmolt abusing it as fodder, and all while also being outpaced by upwards of 22 important mons, most of which can OHKO it with something. I do have high hopes for stuff like physdef nasty plot though, as it checks a lot like Zama (whichever stays in OU), Sneasler, Valiant, and with shuca/balloon it can also solidly take on tusk, bax, dnite, and luna. Cool mon, but definitely not ideal until we begin exploring it further. Specs could be something cool as well, other offensive sets on ghost-spams with dragapult maybe.

:skeledirge:Having to run EP for heatran feels like immense shit, and even then if its like tera grass you're just cooked anyways. Also 99.9% of volcarona's being tera water usually means Skeledirge ends up having to tera to beat it. Enam is a new fairy tool that just breaks past this guy. A lot isn't going dirge's way. He still checks a bunch of annoying ass mons but it is definitely far more abusable than before. Pain.
Is Heatran even that common? I have seen Gholdy more than Heatran these past days.
 
Maybe it's just that I'm an old fart, but all the Dire Claw complaints read like young'uns who never dealt with Scarf Jirachi spamming Iron Head.
Seconded. Even though it is 50% chance for something to happen, it isn't consistent with the status afflicted. Scald, Discharge, Lava Plume, and the contact abilities have existed for far longer but are consistent (except effect spore). If Sneasler was a tank with this ability, that would be a different story, but it falls down from a light breeze.
 
i look forward to the terastallization suspect where i HOPE it remains legal in ou as it keeps the metagame fresh at all times which is what SS was lacking.
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1686084670381.png


"I hope there isn't a suspect" wouldn't have tricked my brain like, "I'm looking forward to the suspect" did lol

I think a lot of the community is still incredibly shell-shocked at how disappointing, lackluster, and stale SS was and are letting SV go full on Grass/Water/Ground/??? Volcarona.

A meta doesn't need an over-centralizing gimmick to stay fresh.
Megas and Z moves felt like icing on the cake, not changing the cake into a cookie cake..

D-Max was concrete proof that GF does not think about Smogon 6v6 in any capacity.
They said we're gonna make your cake giant and we said what is this a bachelor party? Have some class..
(They might have one or two developers that care about singles, but def not the gimmick team lol)

I agree it keeps a meta fresh, but so fresh that keeping up with the Tera tech chasing feels like a pointless game of cat & mouse.

We're losing mons, the skill gap is growing, MU fish is growing, survey scores are low, wins feel less earned more often than ever, losses can feel comical, and building is a nightmare.

What Tera actually does to a mon and thus the game should not be downplayed, it changes almost everything about the game.

Survey scores for fun and balance shouldn't be historically low with all the cool mons and QoL changes, they just shouldn't.

Something's wrong and I don't see why Tera is so sacred that we can't see what the meta would look like without it.

If the meta is stale and boring w/o Tera, then we can have another vote.
If Tera is so amazing and fun and the meta would die in a day without it, then what are we afraid of?
We'll be begging to have it back, right?

We can add Tera to old and new gens as well, since it's so healthy and fun for a meta to have; we might actually have to since players are going to be upset when they can't turn their Volc into a Water/Ground/??? and actually have to find a Tran switch in. Sounds scary.

Just a surprising take, I knew you were pro-Tera pre-Home but I was under the impression that would change once OU became a real meta and not some silly experiment that we've been toying with. Lando came home and is very confused about the cookie cake.
 
Curious where light clay thoughts go

kings rock already broke precedent about higher expectations placed on items
 
Losetoru make one post without being overly salty about terastallization challenge (impossible)

Jokes aside, there was a large portion of players who got fed up with gen 8. The reason everyone compares the two metas (besides them beingthe most recent) is because they’re almost polar opposites of each other in many ways. Gen 8 was notorious for having nearly match last 100+ turns. I specifically remember Melmetal being highly contentious, because it was borderline broken but it was also one of the only Pokémon that could consistently make progress. That’s how desperate the player base was for anything that would speed up the pace of the meta.

its for that reason I believe Terastallization has been popular,by nature it prevents those 100+ turn games that many people came to despise. Fallaciously arguing that it should be back ported to make other generations “more fun” is just raw salt my guy.
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
once OU became a real meta and not some silly experiment that we've been toying with
I must ask, seriously.
1, what is a real meta. Either to you, in general, or possibly both.
And 2,
actually have to find a Tran switch in.
If we need to make a good offense mon dedicated to dealing with one mon, to the level of tailoring its tera type to work its magic, would that not be a sign heatran is a strain on the teambuilding side of the meta? This one is more general but it seems that way to me.
 
I am curious to see where H-Samurott lands after all this as people either see it as really good or mediocre (I am of the former). And honestly, it does come down to experiences with the mon in general.

I believe it has what it takes to be a solid mon in OU. I don't really believe it's mediocre, but I also don't believe it's broken or the strongest thing in the tier by any means. Seems to just be overall balanced with the right tools to do what it needs to do.

I am just happy that there is a version of Samurott that can even be considered viable in OU at all.
I really like H-Samurott. It's a good mon and makes for a decent core with enam-t. I really like scarf but when I miss razor shell I want to delete pokemon from the timeline
 
If Tera is so amazing and fun and the meta would die in a day without it, then what are we afraid of?
We'll be begging to have it back, right?
People are afraid to lose a second Generational Gimmick on a row and bc of that the can see the negatives of Tera. Tera is cool and fun in day 1 but if you want a balanced metagame the reality is 1) Tera is guted in some form aka showing it on team preview (The same as VGC wich is the Official way to play Pokémon) or 2) Removed at all

Ofc some mon gain viability but there is a recent case of Brokeness bc of Tera. I am ofc talking about Regieleki wich wasnt any good on OU bc he was walled by every Ground- but recently he was the fastest QB on history of Smogon for being utterly broken. Mon never were designed to have a full type coverage, even Hidden Power was remove last gen. But now every mon can any STAB boosted coverage.

I am on the fully ban board but if player gonna cry for not having the gen 9 gimmick i prefer at least getting gutted in some form
 
I really like H-Samurott. It's a good mon and makes for a decent core with enam-t. I really like scarf but when I miss razor shell I want to delete pokemon from the timeline
Mood. Perhaps try Aqua Cutter if you get sick of missing. See if that works for you a bit better.
 
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