Luvdisc is cute. Change my mind.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
Luvdisc is cute. Change my mind.
Luvdisc and Delibird are cute gimmick 'mons that don't really need anything else; if anything just have them be early game stuff.
Delibird shouldn't had been a version exclusive in its debut. Sneasel should had been Gligar's version counterpart instead (and, of course, it should had been an Ice Path encounter before Crystal).
Tauros and Miltank should have had a shared calf preevolution. Specially for Paldea purposes; how the fuck do you have different breeds of a male-only species?
Volbeat and Illumise belonging to different experience groups is inane. While the different experience groups aren't IMO that bad as a general concept, those two (and arguably Zangoose and Seviper) don't really work as stuff that grows at a different rate.
Delibird shouldn't had been a version exclusive in its debut. Sneasel should had been Gligar's version counterpart instead (and, of course, it should had been an Ice Path encounter before Crystal).
Tauros and Miltank should have had a shared calf preevolution. Specially for Paldea purposes; how the fuck do you have different breeds of a male-only species?
Volbeat and Illumise belonging to different experience groups is inane. While the different experience groups aren't IMO that bad as a general concept, those two (and arguably Zangoose and Seviper) don't really work as stuff that grows at a different rate.
You think Duraludon shouldn't have received an evo because of powercreep; I think Duraludon shouldn't have received an evolution because it's ugly as sin and should have never been acknowledged again. We are not the same.
On the topic of Archaludon: I have no doubt that this is a dumb and pointless argument about semantics that will never die for as long as the series runs, but imo it should not count as a pseudo-legendary/ a member of the 600 Club for one simple reason: it's a 2-stage evolution line. I'm willing to accept Duraludon as a middle evolution even if it would still be obscenely strong by pseudo middle evo standards, but the lack of a crappy first evo pretty firmly disqualifies it in my eyes. The training arc inherent to pseudos is entirely absent; all it has to claim the title is a Dragon typing and a base stat total.
If going by the Pseudo-Legendary Moniker I agree, but not sure how you can argue it out of "the 600 Club" when it fits the only criteria in the name.
I'm not super familiar with the JP side of things, but my understanding is that they use the descriptor 600 Club to describe the same 'mons we do as pseudo-legendaries. Hence, Mythicals or a handful of Legendaries like Zygarde and Landorus are not considered part of the 600 Club. If I'm incorrect on this, please correct me!
But speaking of Japanese, I believe that official JP merchandise lends credence to the idea that these 'mons are categorically defined by a weak first-stage; the Pokemon Center merch set for the pseudo-legendaries is called Taiki-Bansei, an idiom which (to my understanding) is most accurately translated as Late Bloomers. The Archaludon line lacks this, and thus I don't think it classifies in this group under any moniker - fandom-based or official.
MY PSIONIC WARRIORS... GET THIS GOOFSTER
Whereas I think it shouldn't have gotten an evo because GF had to create YET ANOTHER evolution-inducing item to apply to it instead of just using a Thunder Stone again.
It's not an Electric type nor does it have anything to magnetism, why would it use the Thunder Stone? Metal Coat maybe, but not Thunder Stone.
According to Bulbapedia and whatever Japanese wiki they're associated with, the Japanese community does actually consider Archaludon part of the 600 club.
I also feel it's worth noting that pseudo-legends have a history of being the ace of or at least used by either the final Elite 4 member or champion of their respective region, with the only exceptions being Kommo-o (final Totem in Sun and Moon) Hydreigon kind of (still ace of final boss Ghetsis even if he's not technically the champion, also used by champion Iris in BW2) and Tyranitar (who got fucked by champion Lance's three Dragonites and didn't make the cut for final Elite 4 Karen's team for some reason).
With Drayton being the strongest of the Blueberry Elite 4 and Archaludon being his ace, it really seems like they're treating it as if it were a pseudo-legend.
I also feel it's worth noting that pseudo-legends have a history of being the ace of or at least used by either the final Elite 4 member or champion of their respective region, with the only exceptions being Kommo-o (final Totem in Sun and Moon) Hydreigon kind of (still ace of final boss Ghetsis even if he's not technically the champion, also used by champion Iris in BW2) and Tyranitar (who got fucked by champion Lance's three Dragonites and didn't make the cut for final Elite 4 Karen's team for some reason).
With Drayton being the strongest of the Blueberry Elite 4 and Archaludon being his ace, it really seems like they're treating it as if it were a pseudo-legend.
"According to Bulbapedia and whatever Japanese wiki they're associated with, the Japanese community does actually consider Archaludon part of the 600 club."
Where do you think I got the link to that Japanese wiki
The rest of the page disagrees, the lists do not include it and it is explicitly stated to not be further down.
They may have referenced that wiki to show that some segment of the Japanese playerbase thinks that, but Bulbapedia itself doesn't agree.Bulbapedia said:
Being a three stage line is literally a specific feature of pseudos. Being single stage is not a required characteristic of Pika-clones, Pikachu itself isn't a single stage line afterall, if anything it makes Pawmi even more cloney.
Also Pseudos are an officially recognized group, Pika-clones are not.
yeah but its funnier if it is a pseudo
on a more serious note because its a subject thats worth more care than Archaludon Semantics: both pikaclones and pseudos are just character design tropes that repeat, theyre both as official and vague as gamefreak wants them to be.
i dont really care much about the groupings and who becomes official or not as a character designer myself because it feels pointless. sometimes you just follow a character trend and sometimes you dont. sometimes you directly reference your own trends and sometimes you just let it be. it is not a big deal if archaludon is a pseudo and its not a big deal if pichu is a pika clone as much as it doesnt matter if they are
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yeah i know
that's why i said "bulapedia says the japanese community views it like this"
the claim is "archaludon is a 600 club member in japan"
and the source is bulbapedia
and bulbapedia's source is presumably that other wiki but there's no footnote so maybe not
also reminder that bulbapedia refused to acknowledge convergent evolutions as a thing, so it saying archaludon is or isn't part of a category does not actually mean all that much
the people in charge of bulbapedia are about as out of touch as the people in charge of smogon, which is to say very
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Yeah, I realized what you meant after I posted.
Though not acknowledging convergent species as a thing makes sense, Pseudos are a group that has existed since the beginning and have official recognition (as Late Bloomers), "convergents" are an entirely fan-made category based on 2 lines from the same generation with no official recognition as being anything special. It's the same reason they don't have a page for "regional rats" or "Pika-clones".
Lance used Tyranitar in Pokemon Stadium 2, Kommo-o was used by Ryuki as a champion challenge and by Cynthia in Pokemon Masters and the anime. Even before evolving, Duraludon was used by Raihan, who's said to be strong enough to be champion of another region, but chooses to stay in Galar to rival Leon.
Reminder that the OFFICIAL approach to pseudos is the "late bloomers" toy line. Which specifically involves the multiple stages and not just the fully evolved 'mon.
Archaludon is as much of one of those as Simisage is a Fire starter.
No seriously, those, like starters, are designed as a full line. Turning the Shard into a bridge 3 years later is not how those are designed.
Archaludon is as much of one of those as Simisage is a Fire starter.
No seriously, those, like starters, are designed as a full line. Turning the Shard into a bridge 3 years later is not how those are designed.
Luvdisc is obtained kinda early in XY, and Delibird is obtained early in the Alola games, so looks like the devs agree with you there.
As for Tauros, this is the series in which Kangaskhan hatch with their baby already on the pouch, logic is not welcome here.
This is, by far, the most compelling argument I've seen in favor of pseudo Archaludon lmao
This is the second-most compelling argument! I think it's a very good point to recognize that archetypes are not set in stone and can evolve over time. Thus, what is integral to an archetype can be rather subjective as a result; personally, I place a lot of emphasis on the three-stage aspect of pseudos, not just because of official labeling but also because of the story it conveys of a weak, unassuming underdog becoming one of the most powerful monsters in the whole game. It's a nice little arc, and in my eyes it's an important part of what makes a pseudo a pseudo - but after almost-30 years, a series has to shake things up, and pseudos are no exception. Reading over what's been talked about in this thread, I had no idea that people considered "being a powerful trainer's ace" as important criteria - and I think that's not only pretty interesting, but also indicative of how people can evaluate the same term so differently.
I recognize that I inflicted the scourge of Archaludon pseudo discourse upon this thread, but at the end of the day I agree that it really isn't that serious. I think it's interesting to talk about, and I wouldn't say my stance has changed really, but I think there's merit in examining what forms an archetype, and how flexible the standards can be.
Black and White 1 has one of the most monotonous structures in the entire series, and it has some of the weakest ability to make good teams.
Essentially the structure of the game is: Gym, the counter is in a side route, Team Plasma encounter, repeat. I can even lay it out for you, this is changed only a few times.
N -> Monkeys in side route -> Gym 1 -> Team Plasma steals Pokemon -> Fighting Types in side route -> Gym 2 - > Team Plasma in forest -> Darumaka in bit of route up ahead -> Gym 3 -> N -> Side routes have good mons, though could find them on the way technically -> Gym 4 -> Cold Storage -> Peek up next route to get a Level 24 Deerling with Grass move and Jump Kick for Excadrill -> Gym 5 ->Chargestone has Team Plasma -> Emolga trade next to gym -> Gym 6 -> NO TEAM PLASMA -> Gym 7 -> Dragonspiral Tower (Team Plasma) -> Pawniard (Steel) in grass right before Dragon Gym -> Gym 8
While there are a few slight changes to the structure, BW1 very much works in a very predictable pattern even as a new player in my opinion. And it kind of renders teambuilding to be difficult. Keep in mind, before the first gym your only options are two Normal-Types (only one of which is worth a damn), a Dark-Type that sucks, and your elemental monkey, which also sucks after this gym. Then after that you get a few more options, but overall I find teambuilding in Gen 5 to be pretty dull and slow.
And I think it is telling that B2W2 and beyond very much try to keep a good pool of Pokemon in the region. And frankly, yes, I think keeping the dex to only the new Pokemon wasn't a good idea, it doesn't make teambuilding more creative, it turns it the opposite. While Gen 4 is infamous for having very similar teams, I think it is a game where it frontloads all of the good Pokemon, and the rest you have to very much go out of your way to get.
Meanwhile, the games I see have the most variety are the ones that give a lot of different, non-competing, viable options (as in, not going to make your playthrough more difficult) are the ones with the most variety. It doesn't even need to be like SWSH dropping like 150 Pokemon before the first gym, even a game like RSE has some good stuff. Mightyena really isn't terrible for an early/late game option, you can pick up a Lotad easily, Ralts, Wingull, etc. before the first gym. After that you get Mawile, Geodude, Sableye, etc.
In Gen 5, it follows a problem Gen 1 has. If there are similar typed Pokemon, they are usually version locked so you only actually have one, and so the variety suffers by sheer numbers. Gen 2 also.
You can say that it makes BW1 feel more special, but I'd say that making a game's design only really meaningful on a first playthrough (and that is debatable, again, the game has almost an exact type of team it wants you to craft, and basically leads you to it) in a series that got a lot of popularity (especially in the West) for being a very replayable RPG series, is in my opinion not a good idea. Especially with the workload needed to make it work.
Sun and Moon almost has this problem (early game can be a bit rough for options), but Akala Island is full of tons of variety of Pokemon. And then Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon becomes one of the most fun games to teambuild with in the entire series.
As for the story structure, me-no-like. It feels mostly arbitrary outside of the N fights, and I do not think we need anymore caves full of evil team members in Pokemon. Ever again. On replay, BW1 is also way more linear than people say. I think Alola and Unova BW1 have about the same amount of optional areas.
Like, you never even touch Alola's desert if you just follow the story, IIRC.
God, Gen 7 needs more appreciation.
Essentially the structure of the game is: Gym, the counter is in a side route, Team Plasma encounter, repeat. I can even lay it out for you, this is changed only a few times.
N -> Monkeys in side route -> Gym 1 -> Team Plasma steals Pokemon -> Fighting Types in side route -> Gym 2 - > Team Plasma in forest -> Darumaka in bit of route up ahead -> Gym 3 -> N -> Side routes have good mons, though could find them on the way technically -> Gym 4 -> Cold Storage -> Peek up next route to get a Level 24 Deerling with Grass move and Jump Kick for Excadrill -> Gym 5 ->Chargestone has Team Plasma -> Emolga trade next to gym -> Gym 6 -> NO TEAM PLASMA -> Gym 7 -> Dragonspiral Tower (Team Plasma) -> Pawniard (Steel) in grass right before Dragon Gym -> Gym 8
While there are a few slight changes to the structure, BW1 very much works in a very predictable pattern even as a new player in my opinion. And it kind of renders teambuilding to be difficult. Keep in mind, before the first gym your only options are two Normal-Types (only one of which is worth a damn), a Dark-Type that sucks, and your elemental monkey, which also sucks after this gym. Then after that you get a few more options, but overall I find teambuilding in Gen 5 to be pretty dull and slow.
And I think it is telling that B2W2 and beyond very much try to keep a good pool of Pokemon in the region. And frankly, yes, I think keeping the dex to only the new Pokemon wasn't a good idea, it doesn't make teambuilding more creative, it turns it the opposite. While Gen 4 is infamous for having very similar teams, I think it is a game where it frontloads all of the good Pokemon, and the rest you have to very much go out of your way to get.
Meanwhile, the games I see have the most variety are the ones that give a lot of different, non-competing, viable options (as in, not going to make your playthrough more difficult) are the ones with the most variety. It doesn't even need to be like SWSH dropping like 150 Pokemon before the first gym, even a game like RSE has some good stuff. Mightyena really isn't terrible for an early/late game option, you can pick up a Lotad easily, Ralts, Wingull, etc. before the first gym. After that you get Mawile, Geodude, Sableye, etc.
In Gen 5, it follows a problem Gen 1 has. If there are similar typed Pokemon, they are usually version locked so you only actually have one, and so the variety suffers by sheer numbers. Gen 2 also.
You can say that it makes BW1 feel more special, but I'd say that making a game's design only really meaningful on a first playthrough (and that is debatable, again, the game has almost an exact type of team it wants you to craft, and basically leads you to it) in a series that got a lot of popularity (especially in the West) for being a very replayable RPG series, is in my opinion not a good idea. Especially with the workload needed to make it work.
Sun and Moon almost has this problem (early game can be a bit rough for options), but Akala Island is full of tons of variety of Pokemon. And then Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon becomes one of the most fun games to teambuild with in the entire series.
As for the story structure, me-no-like. It feels mostly arbitrary outside of the N fights, and I do not think we need anymore caves full of evil team members in Pokemon. Ever again. On replay, BW1 is also way more linear than people say. I think Alola and Unova BW1 have about the same amount of optional areas.
Like, you never even touch Alola's desert if you just follow the story, IIRC.
God, Gen 7 needs more appreciation.