OU BW OU Tiering Discussion

[Finchinator]

Approved by me

The BW OU Council wants to open a thread focused on the tiering of the current metagame. This is not tied specifically to SPL or any other tournament like the prior thread here, which has become littered with non sequitors. In this thread, we encourage experienced players of the metagame to post their thoughts while more casual players of the metagame are welcome to offer their thoughts on anything in the BW OU Hub.

Per our intitial internal discussions, there are some parameters in place for this thread:

• Discussion of Uber Pokemon being unbanned are off the table at this time (Sand Rush will naturally be unbanned if Excadrill were to become an Uber)
• DIscussions of any multi-pronged suspect are off the table at this time
• Discussions will be initially focused on the topics I mention in this post, but not strictly limited to them
• BW forum rules and global forum rules must be adhered to (see here or PM me with any questions)

Some topics have been repeatedly brought up in discussion; below you will find a list of them alongside brief descriptions. This list -- in no particular order -- is being provided to keep discussion on-topic and productive as we hope to arrive at a decision in the coming weeks. While no firm timeline is in place, we are determined to serve the needs of our metagame in a timely and practical fashion.



Cloyster is becoming a familiar face in these discussions by now, having broken the tier with Gems and now potentially doing so without them. The recent advent of the specially focused mixed Cloyster variant with Hidden Power Grass and Hydro Pump has revived interest in acting on Cloyster. Suddenly would-be checks such as Slowbro, Keldeo, and physically defensive Rotom-Wash fear Hidden Power Grass while Magnezone and Forretress risk boosted Hydro Pump taking them out. There is a major trade-off with this set as you lose out on a lot of Icicle Spear power and options like Ice Shard, Rock Blast, and Rapid Spin. Speaking of those moves, the classic physical variant of Shell Smash Cloyster is still effective. It has drawn more attention in teambuilding with some of the aforementioned checks and Jirachi seeing an uptick in usage, but it remains a superb win condition and worthy of discussion.



Latios has been one of the faces of BW OU since its infancy, surfacing as a controversial presence many times. The status quo of it being a prominent offensive presence that was kept in check largely by Pursuit and trading has aged well in the eyes of some, but others believe this dynamic has strained the metagame to the point that tiering action is warranted. While classic Latios sets like Choice Specs remain top options, other options like Calm Mind with Lum Berry or 3 attacks with Colbur Berry have risen in popularity and effectiveness across the last few years, too. Despite losing Dragon Gem, Latios has remained the biggest threat in a metagame filled with strong options. Counterplay is limited, warping team construction in BW across each era. Many will argue that this centralizing presence is not a bad thing, providing the metagame with identity. Furthermore, they believe that Latios is a net positive, noting its own role compression and ability to force progress unlike anything else. It is fair to speculate that other bans will likely follow Latios if it were to be removed from the metagame as it is a practical defensive piece on many teams thanks to its speed and typing, too. However, tiering is not always a single-act show, leading to more sophisticated discussion on the aftermath a potential Latios ban would have from both sides.



Excadrill's timeline is perhaps the biggest "BW moment" of all time. It was banned during the current generation metagame due to its alignment with weather as Sand Rush variants were too much, but then conditionally unbanned for the sake of convenience and role compression during a time where some felt the tier was growing stagnant. Nowadays Excadrill is among the biggest threats in BW OU, providing a superb offensive presence on Sand teams with Sand Force. Swords Dance variants are able to threaten defensive teams singlehandedly, keeping the metagame away from an oversaturation of specific bulky structures. However, many argue that this offensive presence is overbearing, citing the lack of defensive counterplay to Excadrill's Sand Force variants. It is true that few Pokemon can stand up to it defensively, especially as games drag out. Other people will argue that Excadrill is necessary for the metagame due to it having Rapid Spin, which the tier lacks a good variety of options for despite having two superb Spike users. Finally, please note that this blurb and topic is specifically about Excadrill, not the ability Sand Force.



Thundurus-Therian has been one of the strongest offensive presences in the metagame for some time now. While Rain has seen better days with greater usage, Thundurus-Therian has achieved staple status on these teams while being viable on offense in general, too. It is best on Rain teams, where it can make the most of its near perfect coverage. STAB accurate Thunder and Hidden Power Ice get things started, but beyond that Focus Blast and Grass Knot are great compliments while U-turn can surprise Latios, Latias, Celebi, or Blissey when paired with the right support. Boosting moves help push Thundurus-T to near uncounterable levels, too, with Nasty Plot in particular being superb. Agility is also a great tool to help it clean offense, too. With this all in mind, many argue there are enough soft checks between faster Pokemon and durable specially defensive walls to manage it. Some also note that Rain being at a low point is a limiting factor for any Thundurus-T argument.



Reuniclus is another controversial Pokemon across the history of BW, even getting suspect discussion during the early days of BW1. Nowadays it is up to many of the same tricks, but usage of it has been optimized many times over. Calm Mind variants of it with various different coverage combinations allow it to be an elite bulky win condition. Attacking options such as Psychic or Psyshock, Focus Blast, Hidden Power Ice, Thunder, and Signal Beam have all seen usage at a high level in recent tournaments; it is very hard to reliably check a bulky boosting Reuniclus with Magic Guard and all of these options at its disposal. You can even dig deeper to the offensive threat it can provide with Life Orb on generic sets or OTR sets. Many argue that Reuniclus can be contained though, citing the good match-up many strong tier Pokemon have against it such as Pursuit Tyranitar, Trick Latios, Iron Head Jirachi, Sand Force Excadrill, and Scizor. It can be soft checked through other measures, too, like Encore Politoed or strong breakers like Choice Band Dragonite or Kyurem-Black. Some argue that Reuniclus with Spikes in particular can be too strong and others feel that without Excadrill, the metagame would not have enough to contain Reuniclus. Overall, it is a big players in this whole discussion and the current metagame.

Spikes

Spikes are a common thread in the viability, for better or worse, of virtually every Pokemon in the tier. With two prominent users in Ferrothorn and Skarmory coupled with a lack of Rapid Spin users, it should be no shock that getting 'em up remains prominent in the metagame. It is hard to view Spikes in the same tiering context as the Pokemon mentioned above, but a lot of people have cited their gripes with Spikes in BW OU, meaning that it is at least worth incuding in this list to see what people have to say. Please note that game modifiers like limiting Spikes to one possible layer are not on the table.

Please use this thread to discuss what you think should be done with BW tiering if you are an experienced player of the metagame with any further opinion to share! We are going to keep in mind what was said in the SPL BW thread, too, but felt it was best to move into an organized and specific thread on tiering. I am going to tag some players we would love to hear from if they have anything further to say (we want to hear from other experienced tournament players, too, but this is just to get the ball rolling):

• SPL BW players: Fakes SoulWind Dark Eeveon dice sensei axew Rewer elodin Jisoo watashi Nalorium McMeghan Leo Amaranth
• BW Cup Quarterfinalists: mael Nalorium Finchinator GaryTheGengar Mako Star Garay oak Raiza
• Smogon Classic Quarterfinalists: Nalorium Finchinator Malekith johnnyg2 Excal decis SoulWind Conflict
• BW Circuit Quarterfinalists: Vileman Sergi Nalorium zaaya Garay oak Mako Finchinator Raiza

Have a nice day!

 

[McMeghan]

I've read the other thread, some discussion on Discord and thought about the tier recently so I'll give my two cents. However, I must admit that I haven't been the most active builder or player in the gen in the past months so this post is mostly backed up by my own vision of how the game would ideally be played and my attachment to BW in general.

Pretense:

This is important, because what follows is based on this part.

I think BW has very good game mechanics in general. The weathers, hazards, movepool options on various Pokemons and Team Preview all mash up together to create a tier where every turn matters and lead to some really interesting mid-game sequences and thrilling endgames.

However, I believe the current (and past tbh) trends have made it shift in an absolute hell of a building hell when you try to cover everything and that's what I'd like to adress.

A sentence I will repeat later is that I think Pokemon skill (and overall engagement with the playerbase and spectators) is best demonstrated with turn by turn decision and chase for progress (through positionning/reads/etc) and Magic Guard eliminates a lot of that factor.

To me, there is very little reason in general to use something else than Magic Guard abuse or anti-Magic Guard playstyles. Rain is less popular than ever, and is pretty much kept alive by Thundurus alone. Weatherless is mainly extremely formulaic HO carried by Cloy and or Volc (and both also kinda fit as anti-Magic Guard mons).

Here is what I'd do in order of priority:

1) Suspect Magic Guard

Yes, as a whole.

I'm not gonna post a long ass text on the strength of Sand Spikes in the meta and its history in the tier in general. What I do believe though is that Magic Guard is too good in that context because the ability is not only strong but even more important, too easy to use. Every user of the ability is problematic in my opinion.

Reuniclus has a history of outlasting many teams and has so many techs to beat its checks that it's been dominating the tier even before Excadrill was dropped and still does it to this day.

Alakazam is way too safe of a Revenge Killer/progress enabler in general to use. Keep in mind that Zam and Reuni pretty much force Chople Berry on Tyranitar, Alakazam invalidates a ton of scarfers because you often want to be Spikes immune to deal with it as it switches the pace of the game. More than that, you often want your Scarfer to have a multi-hit move or Uturn as otherwise you can be in extremely awkward situations vs a Sash-intact Zam.

Clefable fat has become a thing and imo invalidates a lot of defensive Pokemons because it just outstalls them in a similar fashion to Reuniclus.

All these Pokemons have almost 0 drawback to being used because of their ability. Individual turns don't matter as much when they're immune to every form of passive damage. I think Pokemon skill is best demonstrated with turn by turn decision and chase for progress (through positionning/reads/etc) and Magic Guard eliminates a lot of that factor. I think it warps teambuilding the most especially because you need to contend with both side of the spectrum here (quick pace from Zam and slow pace from Clef/Reuni).

2) Suspect Latios

For context, I really think Magic Guard needs to be done first before Latios, even though it's not a popular opinion.

Latios is honestly a free slot on any team imo. You can just tailor the set to whatever you think you need the most and it'll work well. No other Pokemons forces teambuilding like Latios does imo. It's also honestly pretty easy to use on top of it with its immunity to Spikes. I think teambuilding would get freed quite a bit without it in ther tier, especially alongside a Magic Guard ban. You wouldn't feel like using Tyranitar all the time (and Magic Guard users also force it to be Chople pretty much). You don't have to go ultra fat route when using Hippowdon, or having to add a side Scizor to RK the Latios. Rain as a whole gets liberated too (and tbh, Rain is oftentimes not good into Latios anyway). Weatherless I don't think will be very much impacted, although if Latias doesn't pick as much in usage, it will have more options (right now, Latios can very often force the hand on weatherless offense by forcing a sack into Pursuit or Setup).

I also genuinely think this won't cause a domino effect because Latias is there to fit the same defensive role without being as oppressive offensively.

On Excadrill/Thundurus

I don't think either are broken personally and imo contribute more good than bad to the tier. Their only problematic effect are their matchups into Fat teams and if anything I think it's a healthy thing to have around, as it allows teambuilders to use overall good Pokemons without overextending to have a shot against Fat teams. May sound discriminatory, but I also believe Pokemon as a whole is more entertaining when the meta isn't too easy for fat and slow teams to thrive.

Also, if you bring Stall and your only check to SD Drill is Skarmory, that's on you for losing.

On Cloyster

I honestly think this Pokemon is cancer and I wouldn't mind seeing it go (Shell Smash is just too good of a setup move, especially on a Pokemon with a strong Ice type and priority). However, it feels handable right now, and I think it will be even easier to take it into account if teambuilding isn't as strained by the presence of Magic Guard (and maybe Latios).

On Spikes

I think touching Spikes would be a very bad move and would allow a ton more defensive options to be viable in the tier. I also think Spikes in general encourage good decision making both in term of laying them and then thinking turns ahead and sequencing. I also think Excadrill's presence gives the tier enough counterplay to have some mid-game options vs Spikes.

Without Spikes, I also think every Regenerator users become way too strong and much like Magic Guard, too easy to use/hard to punish.

On Gems

In the current days of people being better at building with those extra-pushes buttons (learned through ZMoves and Tera mechanics), I would be afraid of the variance enabled by Gems. I also admit it rewards clever metagame exploration and teambuilding. However, I do think some Pokemons would need to get looked at such as Cloyster and Volcarona if they are reintroduced.

 

[Excal]

already posted in the other thread but i have a couple more comments:

while i sympathize with people's distaste for the pkmn, i think a lot of vitriol surrounding it ignores the upsides cloyster brings to the tier. the effect of its diversity in sets (spike cannon/mixed) is overstated imo. cloyster's strong punish against some magic guard sands, very good offensive spinning capabilities, ice shard priority, counterplay to busted ground types like lando, chomp, and drill, and being a way for wless offensive teams to creatively bypass oppressive keldeo sand structures (often featuring brokens like drill and latios...keldeo is seriously so good vs ho and its strengths are understated) distinguishes the archetype as some have claimed thundurus-t distinguishes rain. cloyster is offensively keeping a lot of overpowered mons/team archetypes honest and we may see the other brokenness in the tier exacerbated once it's gone. the only annoying thing about cloyster that can be argued to be "broken" or undesirable is the 5 chances at a crit through skill link. then again, while it may creep on borderline with that, idt it's broken. if you're going to call cloyster "cancer", "cheese", and other relatively vague terms to support its ban without acknowledging the potential loss from removing this pkmn, i consider these perspectives biased and missing the mark relative to bw's more pressing issues.

i like the way roro structured his order of priority. in terms of spikes, magic guard is definitely the root cause of hazards being oppressive and banning the hazard itself doesn't properly address that.

to sum it up in terms of actions to take, i think the most intuitive thing is to ban sand force first. while council members stated it goes against tiering policy, there are several (good) arguments that it does not violate tiering policy to ban it (see abr's post, etc). i still believe our tiering policy is not suited to handle bw's mess in current form and we should try to work on creating better tiering policy for old gens, distinguishing it properly from current gens, but if not that...

drill + cloyster should not both be banned. losing one spinner, oh well, but both of these spinners being banned with nothing else being done is not an acceptable outcome imo.

gems should not be freed if either cloyster or volcarona are in the tier. gems are wonderful tho, so if cloyster goes, i really think we'd be better off banning volcarona too and freeing gems...and this is coming from a volcarona lover. pls don't stifle offense more than we already have without addressing magic guard.

excadrill with sand force and sd is way too strong against bulkier, more sustainable and consistent archetypes. banning sand force is the sensible thing to do, but it's smogon, so it's better to suspect it than do nothing.

if you want to address magic guard psyspam but you don't want to suspect magic guard, suspect reuniclus or latios. thundurus-therian is some bs which would be nice to ban but it might not be bw's most pressing issue just cause rain sucks.

order of priority: (create better tiering policy for old gens) > sand force/excadrill > reuniclus/magic guard/latios > thundurus-therian > cloyster + volcarona/gems

 

[peng]

Revote on Cloyster should be a priority. That vote was incredibly close with a flawed format, council suggested we would revote after SPL regardless of outcome, and the mon has become even more diverse since then. I have spoken to many who have changed their minds on Cloyster. Lets just vote on it please and put this discussion to bed.

Aside from that, I think as per normal people want big changes but will never align behind a common cause + have fear of collateral damage on the metagame. I have proposed in PR that we loosen the tiering restrictions on old gens so that things like Sand Force could be voted on, which seems far more likely to reach a 60% majority than a full Exca ban which seems largely unpopular.

 

[Duck Chris]

Re: this thread in PR
I thought it might be interesting to take a look at BW tiering history and imagine what it would look like if we strictly adhered to policy standards. Or think of it as an alternate history where bw came out today. Feel free to skip to stuff we're discussing now as this is mostly a thought exercise.

Initial Bans

Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Baton Pass, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Acupressure, King's Rock all banned instantly as uncompetitive. Not complicated, this is the standard nowadays. Let's also assume sleep is banned since the BW sleep change is clearly pretty stupid to deal with.

Rain BW1

Disregarding banned ubers from BW1 which would likely get a quick ban with todays process, the first real question would have been swift swim. I feel like the main question was/would be Ban Politoed or Ban Swift Swim (after Kingdra + Kabutops + Omastar all ended up being op). Likely this would end up with just ban swift swim cause of politoed not being broken without swift swim, where swift swim pokemon could be broken with opposing politoed. Plus it lets us preserve rain which people wanted to do

Excadrill

Sand rush drill proves way too strong and Excadrill is banned, as happened before. No changes

Garchomp

Chomp being one of the strongest in BW1 probably gets a suspect test but would likely escape the ban with no Sand Veil around.

BW2 Release and Clean Up

Landorus, Genesect both banned. This would happen way faster with today's standards. Kyurem black still unbanned, Tornadus-t banned.

Keldeo

Many people thought keldeo deserved a test around BW2 era and under modern standards it probably would have been tested. Due to the mixed opinions both at the time and now I would say it's fair to assume it wouldn't get banned, or could have been banned then unbanned later. No real changes

Venusaur

First real question. If Venusaur was truly as overpowered as some people said we dfeinitely could get a test here. It's clearly the strongest Chlorophyll user and modern standards would require multiple Chlorophyll users to be broken before the ability is tested, so this means it would be a Venusaur test over anything else. Mixed opinions here, not sure what would happen. Especially with the presence of spikes with no Excadrill to spin this is a test that would be very interesting to see. Could still get banned of course.

Gems

Regardless of the result of the venusaur test this is probably where we start talking about gems, volcarona, cloyster. I'll assume the same conversation happens and gems get voted on and banned.

Sand Rush

Due to the garchomp situation never happening there would be no precedent to ban an ability and immediately unban a pokemon. Even if we say that people will start arguing that Stoutland (and sandslash) are too op with sand rush, I doubt this would go very far. With no proof the ability is broken, this goes nowhere and sand rush isn't banned.

The point of this exercise is mostly to look at the idea that "if we did BW right we wouldn't be in this situation". But basically what I'm looking at is not a lot of changes even with modern policy standards. All the real banned pokemon are still banned, swift swim is gone, rain is still around. The only main changes would be Excadrill remains banned since Sand Rush is never banned and Venusaur may be banned after a test.
Of course it's possible someone makes a case for Chlorophyll after Venusaur ban if something like Lilligant or Whimsicott takes off but I kinda doubt it.

So with that in mind, all we would need to do to return BW to modern tiering standards would be to unban Sand Rush and Chlorophyll, re-ban Excadrill, and test Venusaur.

From there everything currently being discussed is still on the table. Thundurus-T definitely fits the bill for a suspect test at least with strong power but some notable downsides. Spikes / Reuniclus test would be easy to justify since they have become very hard to deal with and ultimately centralizing. Testing is intimidating because it takes time and effort to run special tournaments and whatnot but the reluctance to actually test and vote on stuff is one of the reasons BW took so long to clean up in the first place. BW Council shouldn't be afraid of calling for a vote just because they don't know (or think they do know) what might be the outcome.

I would be strongly in favor of banning excadrill and testing Venusaur and then going from there.

If we don't care about adhering to tiering policy, there are other avenues to take. But if we do, I think this is the way.

 

[Nalorium]

I'm not going to lie, before writing this I had written about 5 paragraphs giving my opinion about the tier, what should be banned, what shouldn't be touched, etc. But when I was going to send it I realized that this is useless, there is not a single opinion about the tier that has not already been given, there is not a single opinion that has not been proposed either in the different threads or in the BW Discord. So I'm not going to waste your time putting you to read a huge text of things that have already been said a thousand times. So, what is my opinion about BW OU? That it is being ruined by the laziness and unproactivity of the BW Council. All I am demanding is an ultimatum to take some kind of action on the tier. Stop asking people to give their opinions if you are going to do absolutely nothing about those opinions. Do something, no matter how small it is, but do something. Don't be afraid of change, a suspect at least, a poll, whatever. But stop laughing in the face of your players asking them to give their opinion about the tier if you are not going to do anything about it. SPL ended 15 days ago and absolutely nothing has happened, what are you waiting for? For Palkia22 to tell yall for the 9th time that (Cloyster, Latios, Thundurus, Magic Guard, whatever) is broken? Everyone has already given their opinion. All possible perspectives have already been given, please do something.

Ban cloyster and excuse my English.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Suspect Magic Guard

Just want to throw my support behind this idea, I don't think I've seen it seriously proposed before now and in retrospect I can't imagine why, it's a brilliant idea that has the potential to address a diversity of issues at once as McM outlines in their post. Whether or not it gets banned, I think it's the highest value action that could be taken for starting down a BW tiering path.

Edit: to elaborate slightly more, increasing the relative value of hazards by removing penalty free switch possibilities will both increase the value of decision making on each individual turn and give a clearer path to identify which pokemon may be overpowered in a world without costless switches when clefable or zam aren't invalidating the decision trees of counterplay against said threats.

 

[peng]

Magic Guard ban also breaks tiering policy - if I’m getting told that Sand Force isn’t on the table then I’m unsure why Magic Guard would be. There’s nothing intrinsically uncompetitive about it as an entire ability and if there was then surely that spans generations beyond BW.

Reuniclus itself is probably suspect worthy though. My personal feeling is an entire MG ban would be excessive when the blatant abuser is Reun

(but if you’re passionate about magic guard then pls do talk more about loosening old gen policy in PR)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

There’s nothing intrinsically uncompetitive about it as an entire ability

That's the question that the suspect would answer isn't it, is the ability to avoid passive damage entirely overpowered across multiple pokemon such that it shapes metagame outcomes in undesirable ways. This would be unlike a Sand Force ban because it would not be about trying to preserve a specific Pokemon, it would be a direct test of the influence of damage immunity on multiple pokemon potentially demonstrable to have an outsized warping influence on the meta. You mentioned Reuniclus as the main concern in your eyes but all three are equals in mine, as McM outlines the restrictions and limitations placed on team building by Sash Alakazam punishing speed as a team building priority due to the ease with which it checks scarfers and other fast sweepers, combined with the defensive prowess of Clefable forcing specific forms of offensive building in order to make progress against fat builds, combined with the offensive pressure Reuniclus presses upon almost every team style, is a potentially suspect worthy degree of undue constraint in the team builder directly contributing to the idea of "building hell" espoused here and elsewhere.

Magic Guard may or may not be ban worthy, but it is well within the realm of possibility that it's influence on the builder is one of the primary causes of the issues facing BW tiering.

 

[peng]

There is no “all 3” magic guard abusers, its an ability given to like 10 pokemon. And no, you surely cannot argue that it is intrinsically busted to avoid residual damage, as if any of us would use Clefairy should Clefable go, even duosion is incredibly difficult to pilot what with hating knock off. Unlike something like arena trap where sash Diglett was actually proven abusable. Or Shadow Tag where you can force dumb trapping situations with Gothita.

i’m not arguing with you on the potency of magic guard, it is clearly incredibly incredibly strong and maybe individual pokemon could be suspects.

But from a policy pov magic guard should not be suspectable and if its even being considered then Sand Force should be on the slate also considering its support

 

[Finchinator]

I do not think that Magic Guard should be off the table forever, but I do think the onus would be more than just Reuniclus for it to be discussed. Maybe if Alakazam were to garner more attention, for example, but I don’t think that’s where we are right now.

 

[peng]

Finch this is an unbelievable take from the #1 proponent of smogon tiering policy

beginning to feel like this is just made up as we go along

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

But from a policy pov magic guard should not be suspectable and if its even being considered then Sand Force should be on the slate also considering its support

I'm not interested in arguing about policy, that's for others to decide and entirely tangential to the question of what the priority should be for deciding on the BW tiering course of action. If a facet of the game is overbearing it deserves attention as has been the case whether pokemon, ability, or item - Swift Swim and Chlorophyll were still problems despite not being broken on Goldeen and Hoppip.

I am interested in hearing more perspective from McMeghan on how you perceived the pressures placed on the builder from the Magic Guard pokemon, expanding on your previous post. Finch is fair in suggesting more discussion would need to happen with respect to Zam and Clef, and that would be a good place to start.

 

[Finchinator]

Finch this is an unbelievable take from the #1 proponent of smogon tiering policy

beginning to feel like this is just made up as we go along

What? Please reread if that’s your takeaway.

Tiering policy always has been that you cannot look at a non-Pokemon element if it only breaks one Pokemon — you look at the Pokemon. Multiple instances makes it a more open discussion. Hence why I said it can’t only be Reuniclus. What I said is entirely consistent lol

This is the same as us banning Last Respects in SV only after multiple things were problematic. I don’t think we are there with MG (and I mostly doubt we ever will be there), but that’s what would be required.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

What? Please reread if that’s your takeaway.

Tiering policy always has been that you cannot look at a non-Pokemon element if it only breaks one Pokemon — you look at the Pokemon. Multiple instances makes it a more open discussion. Hence why I said it can’t only be Reuniclus. What I said is entirely consistent lol

This is the same as us banning Last Respects in SV only after multiple things were problematic. I don’t think we are there with MG (and I mostly doubt we ever will be there), but that’s what would be required.

In your perspective is it necessary for multiple things to be individually broken or overpowered for a common characteristic to be considered for a suspect?

Or would the collective impact of multiple non-overpowered things with a common characteristic creating a collectively broken or overpowered effect also be sufficient grounds for a suspect?

 

[Finchinator]

The way I personally see it and the way it has been enforced across tiering (both firsthand under me as I have been a tier leader and beforehand) is this: a non-Pokemon element must break more than one Pokemon to be considered for tiering action. We tier Pokemon first and anything else second.

If Magic Guard or Sand Force or whatever other ability/signature move/item only broken one Pokemon, it wouldn’t be looked at. Otherwise, you’ll notice the entire Ubers tier reshaped and banlists contain totally different things.

If they break multiple things, then it’s a common thread and you have substantial enough evidence to at least discuss these elements in the context of multiple things. Last Respects wasn’t banned from SV OU until another viable abuser came out despite being an obviously misfit move.

You look at a laundry list of Ubers that are only broken because of X item, Y ability, or Z move — take Blaziken and Speed Boost. You cannot ban Speed Boost when it’s proven to be balance on other Pokemon, even if they’re not impacting OU much at all. But if for some reason another abuser of Speed Boost became broken, then you can at least discuss it. Would that be where the line is drawn? I don’t know — that’s what votes and discussions are for. Sometimes it just takes two and sometimes it takes even more or a greater proportion of abusers. It’s not a perfect science and none of tiering is, but that’s what the policy has been.

I highly doubt Magic Guard is banned or suspected, but for it even to get there and be discussed — forget about banned, another abuser would need to prove worrisome.

 

[dice]

Finch this is an unbelievable take from the #1 proponent of smogon tiering policy

beginning to feel like this is just made up as we go along

this post reads disingenuously. arguing that an ability is busted doesn't mean that it is necessarily broken on every pokemon in every context. if magic guard was a commonality which factored into the oppressive nature of several pokemon, then it certainly could be looked into (which isn't to say I believe it should, but I have been ruminating about mcm's post).

this is different than the approach of trying to build-a-bear excadrill. which is to say: attempting to ban two abilities wholesale to preserve a pokemon. while I am empathetic toward wanting to prioritize the tier’s health over policy concerns, there's no way you can disarticulate this approach from any other arbitrary quickfix. despite the jab toward Finch, policy isn't just for policy's sake. I simply just do not agree with your premise. while a messy tiering history has muddied the waters, I don't believe the solution is to pollute the ocean further.

there are interesting arguments to be made regarding how MG nullifies residual damage, morphing common lines (and the tier at large) in an unhealthy fashion. from my perspective, there is not an interesting argument behind a sand force ban. and brutishly stating they are one and the same doesn't mean they are one and the same. definitely echoing Finchinator's sentiment here.

I do not write this to cause apathy or upset, but to recalibrate our focus on what can be changed (if anything need be) to have the best tier and environment for all players. that is my only goal. and I wish to collaborate with the playerbase to find what is suitable for us all. but this is not it.

 

[GaryTheGengar]

I know I'm going to come across as kind of an elitist asshole in this post but I've got to raise my concerns somewhere.

I take issue with how this vote is being conducted - mainly the requirements. I don't think there should be ladder eligibility to qualify. In my opinion, if you want to vote on significant tiering decisions that will affect the tier for years to come, put in the work to reach the later stages of bw cup/circuit or play SPL. It is ridiculously easy to reach voting requirements, especially in a dead old gens ladder. This isn't a concern in the modern gen as there is a much deeper voter pool, but heavily dilutes a small voter pool. Its one thing when frequent ladder players qualify, as they at least have the experience to have an informed vote. However seeing someone like Vert, who openly admits it is his first time playing the tier voting with the same weight as someone like Soulwind motivated me to make this post.

 

[Vert]

I know I'm going to come across as kind of an elitist asshole in this post but I've got to raise my concerns somewhere.

I take issue with how this vote is being conducted - mainly the requirements. I don't think there should be ladder eligibility to qualify. In my opinion, if you want to vote on significant tiering decisions that will affect the tier for years to come, put in the work to reach the later stages of bw cup/circuit or play SPL. It is ridiculously easy to reach voting requirements, especially in a dead old gens ladder. This isn't a concern in the modern gen as there is a much deeper voter pool, but heavily dilutes a small voter pool. Its one thing when frequent ladder players qualify, as they at least have the experience to have an informed vote. However seeing someone like Vert, who openly admits it is his first time playing the tier voting with the same weight as someone like Soulwind motivated me to make this post.

this is why new players don't want to come play your shit old gens. someone new shows interest in your community / tier and we have old heads like you saying i can't vote despite getting voting requirements.

old gen reqs are significantly harder to get than CG ones; there are a ton of bwc alts hard stuck in 80-84gxe range right now in fact. saying it's easy to get reqs and simultaneously showing concern over a small voter pool is hypocritical as fuck.

if i said ban cloyster in my reqs post we wouldn't be having this discussion since it aligns with your opinion.

 

[GaryTheGengar]

Its awesome having new players show interest in the bw community, but you aren't entitled to a vote after playing bw for the two hours that it took to qualify. Do you really have an informed opinion about cloysters impact on the tier compared to someone who has played the tier for an extended period of time?

I don't understand your post at all, I'm not complaining about a small voter pool, its simply the reality that we have to deal with. The final part is ridiculous as well, I don't care about my personal agenda in the tier, I only care that the people shaping the tier actively play it. That post isn't even from the newest vote btw. I would have voted do not ban in the most recent cloy/volc vote if I didn't miss the voting window, but am reconsidering my opinion with the new developments in cloysters toolbox.

 

[tempolaly]

Re: this thread in PR
I thought it might be interesting to take a look at BW tiering history and imagine what it would look like if we strictly adhered to policy standards. Or think of it as an alternate history where bw came out today. Feel free to skip to stuff we're discussing now as this is mostly a thought exercise.

Initial Bans

Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Baton Pass, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Acupressure, King's Rock all banned instantly as uncompetitive. Not complicated, this is the standard nowadays. Let's also assume sleep is banned since the BW sleep change is clearly pretty stupid to deal with.

Rain BW1

Disregarding banned ubers from BW1 which would likely get a quick ban with todays process, the first real question would have been swift swim. I feel like the main question was/would be Ban Politoed or Ban Swift Swim (after Kingdra + Kabutops + Omastar all ended up being op). Likely this would end up with just ban swift swim cause of politoed not being broken without swift swim, where swift swim pokemon could be broken with opposing politoed. Plus it lets us preserve rain which people wanted to do

Excadrill

Sand rush drill proves way too strong and Excadrill is banned, as happened before. No changes

Garchomp

Chomp being one of the strongest in BW1 probably gets a suspect test but would likely escape the ban with no Sand Veil around.

BW2 Release and Clean Up

Landorus, Genesect both banned. This would happen way faster with today's standards. Kyurem black still unbanned, Tornadus-t banned.

Keldeo

Many people thought keldeo deserved a test around BW2 era and under modern standards it probably would have been tested. Due to the mixed opinions both at the time and now I would say it's fair to assume it wouldn't get banned, or could have been banned then unbanned later. No real changes

Venusaur

First real question. If Venusaur was truly as overpowered as some people said we dfeinitely could get a test here. It's clearly the strongest Chlorophyll user and modern standards would require multiple Chlorophyll users to be broken before the ability is tested, so this means it would be a Venusaur test over anything else. Mixed opinions here, not sure what would happen. Especially with the presence of spikes with no Excadrill to spin this is a test that would be very interesting to see. Could still get banned of course.

Gems

Regardless of the result of the venusaur test this is probably where we start talking about gems, volcarona, cloyster. I'll assume the same conversation happens and gems get voted on and banned.

Sand Rush

Due to the garchomp situation never happening there would be no precedent to ban an ability and immediately unban a pokemon. Even if we say that people will start arguing that Stoutland (and sandslash) are too op with sand rush, I doubt this would go very far. With no proof the ability is broken, this goes nowhere and sand rush isn't banned.

The point of this exercise is mostly to look at the idea that "if we did BW right we wouldn't be in this situation". But basically what I'm looking at is not a lot of changes even with modern policy standards. All the real banned pokemon are still banned, swift swim is gone, rain is still around. The only main changes would be Excadrill remains banned since Sand Rush is never banned and Venusaur may be banned after a test.
Of course it's possible someone makes a case for Chlorophyll after Venusaur ban if something like Lilligant or Whimsicott takes off but I kinda doubt it.

So with that in mind, all we would need to do to return BW to modern tiering standards would be to unban Sand Rush and Chlorophyll, re-ban Excadrill, and test Venusaur.

From there everything currently being discussed is still on the table. Thundurus-T definitely fits the bill for a suspect test at least with strong power but some notable downsides. Spikes / Reuniclus test would be easy to justify since they have become very hard to deal with and ultimately centralizing. Testing is intimidating because it takes time and effort to run special tournaments and whatnot but the reluctance to actually test and vote on stuff is one of the reasons BW took so long to clean up in the first place. BW Council shouldn't be afraid of calling for a vote just because they don't know (or think they do know) what might be the outcome.

I would be strongly in favor of banning excadrill and testing Venusaur and then going from there.

If we don't care about adhering to tiering policy, there are other avenues to take. But if we do, I think this is the way.

Right at the beginning you glossed over the crux of things, which is that if BW were tiered as we do more recent gens, Drizzle would've been tested or even quickbanned, with no Swift Swim action needed.
From there, as you say, Excadrill never would've been freed, Sand Rush would be allowed as would Chlorophyll, with a Venusaur test. Latios, which went unmentioned, would've surely been tested as well.
It'd be a much different tier.

 

[Fakes]

Vert winning OST in another tier, indicates he understands pokemon at a deep enough level. him getting into bw recently is def enough in his case. weird opinion by gtg.

the other who got reqs def should be able to vote aswell.

 

[Finchinator]

84% GXE is high and the people who put forth effort to reach that point legitimately deserve to vote. Regardless of if I agree or disagree with Vert or GtG or anyone else on Cloyster, I do think it’s important we — like some other old generations — have an avenue to qualify beyond an arbitrary handful of tournament qualifiers.

 

[Finchinator]

As an aside, it is very disappointing seeing what’s going on with the Cloy suspect and BW community. I have always been proud to be a prominent member of the BW playerbase, but today is a major exception to that. Stuff like this makes me want to leave BW after many years of contribution rather than continue. We shouldn’t have to play janitor for a bunch of messy children.

For those unaware, ten total user got reqs so far, but five of those users have had their reqs stripped for suspect cheating — dozens of games had people forfeiting in attempt to boost someone else. There was a coordinated effort to act in a fashion that is clearly illegal. There is clear malicious intent present.

The spirit of the suspect, like the spirit of the game itself is to win the game legitimately, is to obtain the requirements legitimately. Trying to game the system isn’t acceptable. This has always been the case across every generation/tier and will remain the case.

It is frustrating to see people I consider capable players and valuable community members behave this way. And I truly hope these people can contribute positively in the future as one mistake isn’t what defines someone, but it’s frustrating that this has become a joke of a suspect.

If you want change in the tier, this isn’t the way to do it. The way to do it is by posting and participating properly. That’s not rocket science; it’s incredibly simple to understand. I expect better in the future.

 

[Rewer]

As an aside, it is very disappointing seeing what’s going on with the Cloy suspect and BW community. I have always been proud to be a prominent member of the BW playerbase, but today is a major exception to that. Stuff like this makes me want to leave BW after many years of contribution rather than continue. We shouldn’t have to play janitor for a bunch of messy children.

For those unaware, ten total user got reqs so far, but five of those users have had their reqs stripped for suspect cheating — dozens of games had people forfeiting in attempt to boost someone else. There was a coordinated effort to act in a fashion that is clearly illegal. There is clear malicious intent present.

The spirit of the suspect, like the spirit of the game itself is to win the game legitimately, is to obtain the requirements legitimately. Trying to game the system isn’t acceptable. This has always been the case across every generation/tier and will remain the case.

It is frustrating to see people I consider capable players and valuable community members behave this way. And I truly hope these people can contribute positively in the future as one mistake isn’t what defines someone, but it’s frustrating that this has become a joke of a suspect.

If you want change in the tier, this isn’t the way to do it. The way to do it is by posting and participating properly. That’s not rocket science; it’s incredibly simple to understand. I expect better in the future.

Good post, but I believe that the fact that a circlejerk can cheat and single handedly decide a vote that will change the metagame for years to come is a good argument for old gens to not have ladder reqs like that. You can make the argument that it's the same for every vote in every gen, but it's a different thing in current gen where there are 100+ voters.

I agree with GTG here. We have two seasonals, a global championship, bwpl, classic, a circuit ranking with playoffs and of course, spl. There are many BW tournaments where players can prove themselves. I'm sure there are many ladder-only players that are very good and could kick my ass, as well as players from other gens that could destroy everyone, but ladder isn't it. The truth is that, outside of ADV, old gens ladders are simply not active enough to truly test players. We try to circumvent this with a very high elo/gxe requirement but that doesn't really solve it.